Squad Combat Leagues
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*sam* Posted Feb 19, 2010, 6:17 pm |
A brand new type of league, the Squad Combat (PvP) League, is being added this year (2053, Evan-time).
There will be 5 divisions, 1st thru 5th. There's 10 teams allowed in each division, and each team fights each other team once during the season. Normally each team would expect to have one combat per week, for the 9 weeks running from March of each year to November. At the start of each season, divisions 1-4 are autofilled with teams from the previous season. The top three teams in divisions 2-5 get promoted at the end of the season, and the bottom three in 1-4 get relegated. The bottom division (#5) is filled on a first-come first-served basis. There is a fee to enter a team in the league, but this is a one-off fee. After these new leagues are established, there will only be spaces available in the bottom division. Each team has one, two, or three players in it and of course the squad combats can only involve cars belonging to those players. Each player can only be a member of one team.. Each division has a different CR-cap and skill-cap. Prizes are substantial, of course, and will include 'training vouchers' which allow you to train characters above their official skill-cap. The vouchers will be tradeable and can be applied to any one character in any one skill. All team members get the voucher. The scheduling of combats is a bit tricky since players are in different timezones: each team nominates 3 preferred times-of-day, and the server auto-selects one of the times from either team, with the combat scheduled towards the end of the week (Sat or Sun). At any time during that week, the two teams can mutually agree on an immediate launch of the event. Having multiple members per team should help alleviate this scheduling problem.. you should probably team up with friends who can cover times that you can't. |
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*sam* Posted Feb 19, 2010, 6:24 pm |
You may need to force a reload of the Events Diary in order to see the new Leagues chart, since your browser may be caching the previous image.
There is a strictly-enforced signup date in these leagues. Teams members (but not the overall team owner) can join and leave, up until that date. For this season, the date is: 2010-02-25 00:00:00 The first set of combats will be scheduled for next weekend. You will normally get a longer lead-time on the combats than this, but we're under time pressure this season due to starting these leagues late (they normally start in March). |
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*sam* Posted Feb 19, 2010, 6:45 pm |
The winner of each combat is the one who demoralised the greatest total CR of enemy cars.
The 2nd and 3rd members of the team (not the team owner) can leave/join teams during the 'pre-season' (normally Jan/Feb, but this year there's little time so pre-season is now until Thursday 25th Feb, 00:00h). |
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theHumungous Posted Feb 19, 2010, 6:48 pm |
Very cool. I think the skill limit per division is a fantastic idea! | ||||||||
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*Longo* Posted Feb 19, 2010, 7:23 pm |
What town(s) do these events occur in? | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Feb 19, 2010, 7:25 pm |
I guess Somerset. Maybe there should be a way of them being elsewhere, on mutual agreement? or maybe the home town of the owner of the "home team" ? |
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*Longo* Posted Feb 19, 2010, 7:43 pm |
Im just dreading moving gangers from town to town, and I also really dont want to have to move more guys to SS. Although unrealistic, could ganger location maybe not play a role in being in the event, but cars in that particular city of the combat must be there? Just dont want to make this another reason everyone moves back to SS? |
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Flaming savage Posted Feb 19, 2010, 8:02 pm |
I think we should see how the league works out then possibly branch it out into other cities aswell. | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Feb 19, 2010, 8:04 pm |
The actual ganger requirement shouldn't be too large.. if you're in a three-player team, you're only likely to have one or two cars each? |
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*Longo* Posted Feb 19, 2010, 8:10 pm |
Im not too worried about the cars. But if I have a bad week and lose 2 gangers, I gotta drive 2 more up from way down in Longoville or BL, which is several days travel. |
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*Tinker* Posted Feb 19, 2010, 8:18 pm |
hey why don't we make at the peaceful resort town of elms? or GW if that's more central | ||||||||
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pweelg Posted Feb 19, 2010, 8:20 pm |
Maybe the thing should be to have the beginner leagues at Somer and move them further south as you progress and CR/skill cap increases so the mid divisons in GW and top in BL | ||||||||
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*Longo* Posted Feb 19, 2010, 8:24 pm |
The problem with this is that some gangs(and camps specifically) would have a huge advantage over some gangs based upon where teh events took place. If they took place in Firelight, Cry Havoc members would have a huge advantage over anyone they were fighting. If Longovilles Champions were fighting a SS based team, and the events occurred in BL, Longovilles Champions would have a huge advantage. |
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*sam* Posted Feb 19, 2010, 8:25 pm |
Hence the possibility of playing at the hometown, or nominated town, of the "home team" in each combat..? |
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*Longo* Posted Feb 19, 2010, 8:29 pm |
I think thats the fairest, although will still not please everyone. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 19, 2010, 8:45 pm |
How does the "Training" prize work?
Can you distribute the "Training Points" freely, as in, put 3 points on one guy and 5 on the other? Also, are these just "Skill boosts" or "Cap Boosts"? |
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*Longo* Posted Feb 19, 2010, 8:52 pm |
Theres one answer |
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Marrkos Posted Feb 19, 2010, 9:01 pm |
And there's another. They are single-skill, cap-ignored, skill boosts. So if you have a guy capped at 98 in Gunnery, you can apply your voucher and get him to 98+?? in Gunnery. It won't make his 'global cap' any higher. My interpretation. 
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*sam* Posted Feb 19, 2010, 9:38 pm |
All go to one character, they're skill boosts not cap boosts. edit: marrkos' interpretation is correct, yes. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 19, 2010, 9:42 pm |
Would be nice if we could split a 30 point into 6 5 point ones, but that's not going to happen?
Just thinking that having to spend 30 in the same skill is way less beneficial than, lets say, spending 15 in two skills to get them to 150, or something like that... I mean, if a player wins the grand prize, give the player some flexibility with it
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*sam* Posted Feb 19, 2010, 11:01 pm |
I have just completed the events pre-scheduling code. What it does is check the three preferred times of the two teams involved in a combat. If any are the same then it picks that time; otherwise it finds the two that are closest and uses the midpoint between them.
If both teams in a combat agree, you will be able to launch a combat any time up to ten days ahead of the official combat date. |
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*Rahn* Posted Feb 20, 2010, 12:25 am |
Give an inch and they try to take a mile.. | ||||||||
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*Longo* Posted Feb 20, 2010, 12:27 am |
Excellent Sam. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Feb 20, 2010, 12:51 am |
Who gets the MR bonus? | ||||||||
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*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Feb 20, 2010, 12:54 am |
Which ever camp the team leader is flying under, when you create a team you get to choose "camp patronage". So whichever camp the leader shose is the camp that will get the MR |
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*sam* Posted Feb 20, 2010, 9:57 am |
I'm undecided on this, but it wouldn't be hard to do. |
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Serephe Posted Feb 20, 2010, 10:00 am |
I don't like the whole skill cap raise thing at all -- but if we have to have it, then having it limited to 1 character per season you win would be preferable, imo.
Honestly though, I think that the skill cap raise needs a rethink. |
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*sam* Posted Feb 20, 2010, 10:05 am |
It's not a skillcap raise for all skills Sere, just one. | ||||||||
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Serephe Posted Feb 20, 2010, 10:11 am |
I understand this. I still don't approve.  Especially if it can be split. I don't know. A skill training bonus would probably be better, new guys aren't going to get much use out of a skill cap raise. (even I wouldn't get much from it, unless I bumped my gang leaders gunnery for sniper2)
Will see how it goes.
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*sam* Posted Feb 20, 2010, 10:18 am |
Yep. We're actually discussing other changes to the system too, in the RC. | ||||||||
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Serephe Posted Feb 20, 2010, 10:21 am |
Like your dreaded variable skill cap system? 
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Nekojin Posted Feb 20, 2010, 10:49 am |
IMO, having the skill boost only be to one skill is plenty good enough as it is. It's already providing a benefit that can't be gotten in any other way, anywhere in the game. | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Feb 20, 2010, 10:51 am |
We're more concerned about the attraction of the lower-level divisions to newer gangs, I think. The prizes are pretty low in those.. cash-flow would be very difficult as these could be expensive events to compete in. | ||||||||
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Serephe Posted Feb 20, 2010, 10:51 am |
Some of the RP missions can also increase your skill beyond cap, as Nine reminded me. Though those you can't choose a specific skill... I assume the prize you will be able to choose the gang member/skill.
For the lower brackets -- perhaps the ability to apply a rare skin to one of your vehicles? |
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*sam* Posted Feb 20, 2010, 11:01 am |
BTW I'm adding a new setting for each team: "Home Town". Like the other settings, this is editable only during the 'pre season'.
Combats will be scheduled for wilderness maps near to the Home Town of the team that's playing "at home" in each combat. The "away" team will need to travel. But they will have plenty of time to plan for this since the entire schedule of combats is created at the end of the 'pre season'. |
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Fealty Lost Posted Feb 20, 2010, 3:21 pm |
Seems like a totally unnecessary addition to the game.
It'll attract only the 'usual suspects,' those with disposable cash, vehicles and gangers. If its intent is to promote PvP...there are already avenues for that in the game: and they aren't being used too much. I have to totally agree with Ser'..."skill vouchers" are against everything that makes DW what it is. What's next? "Health" vouchers to return a ganger to "Good" or "Excellent" health from death's door? Why not a "Clone" voucher? Makes about as much sense as the skill voucher. What do they do? Hold the guy down and shove the voucher into his head and it miraculously melds with his synapses and VIOLA! ...he's a new man? With everything that should be in this game...this is something that shouldn't...another League...whoopee. Where are the threads for Additional Leagues Needed in DW? In case you don't get the gist...I'm not for this. |
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*sam* Posted Feb 20, 2010, 3:35 pm |
You're welcome to stay away from the new leagues, DA. But just in case you are looking for answers to your questions.. 1.. A tiered league system with promotion/relegation is a new departure that can create an effective challenge over several seasons rather than just one 2.. Yes, I think it has the potential to promote PvP. And as you say, the avenues currently in place aren't being used. Seems like a reason to try a new one to me, not a reason not to. 3.. You're actually the first person I've seen who doesn't like the idea. This was all seeded a few weeks ago based on a thread started by (I think) Zoltan which generated a lot of interest.
Here's Zoltan's one. Actually new leagues get requested quite often, I guess you don't spend as much time on the forums as I do. Zoltan's PvP League Thread
Er.. no. They're not actually vouchers, I figured you'd realise that it was just a handy term to use. I guess not. They are actually training time with rare, top-quality trainers. Nothing magical about it. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 20, 2010, 3:43 pm |
Damon I usually agree with you to some extent, but, get your head straight, how is a 30 skill-points much worse than winning a heavy laser?
This is a GAME, not some fictional masterpiece, besides, Also, So what if the "Usual Suspects" get something to do, the chance of you losing on of your higher skill characters in the battle for those 30 skill-points is considerable. This game seriously lacks any real "endgame" stuff to to outside of slaughtering pirates for rare loot, or running a camp... once you get over a certain hurdle, the game poses no real challenge anymore, and to me, those 30 extra skill-points are worth millions, I finally have something to really fight for, that means a lot, and I'm not the only one. I'd like to suggest again, this military remnant gang, with superior equipment, in a unique area (Morgan, or even way out in the wastes, far from any town). Doesn't matter what skill you have, these guys would have an average skill of 200, and army gear, they would kick your ass back to the stone age, you know, an endgame challenge? When I complaned about in the lobby how everything gets so easy to do, or rather, how there are so few things that actually pose a challenge left, or new things to do, after you spread your wings, someone said... "Well, of-course if you scout with buzzers and high skilled people its easy, try compacts or muscle" Why, Why must I force myself to use lesser gear to get a challenge, that is just dumb. Anyway, back to the point, this is a perfect addition, and a perfect reward, don't listen to the Naysayers... (Sorry for utterly derailing myself halfway trough, but I still got what I wanted said... well, said) |
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*Ayjona* Posted Feb 20, 2010, 4:33 pm |
This surprises me. In a game that almost exclusively relies on near-equivalents of relative real-world realism, "magic" (not a literal expression) items seems ill-fitting and hard to justify, canon-wise. And while it's certainly easy to justify the training vouchers in a quick, dirty and simple manner ("in-game, they represent elite training from the best teachers", disregarding the fact that characters who have reached their skill cap often being among the best in their field), the Darkwind standard of relative realism has always been more immersive, and its explanations more convincing. So I'm curious if the training vouchers have a solid in-game basis, or if they are, so far, only a mechanical device intended to make the skill caps more flexible. It might certainly be needed, and be a good thing, but I'd still like for all such solutions to fit neatly into the gaming world. (Which they already might, in which case I only need an explanation of why and how  )
EDIT: Heh, I had actually missed Damon's concern regarding the vouchers, and Sam's reply, when I wrote my post. Which makes my example above a tad amusing But apart from the fact that skill-capped characters are sometimes among the best in their field, giving away free training as a competition prize seems peculiar to me. Or, rather, it seems like a hasty and none too solid in-canon explanation for an addition that is based purely in game mechanics.
EDIT2: Brilliant new league, and from a risk-vs-reward point of view (one that disregards canon), great prizes! Don't mistake my questioning for general discontent with this patch
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*Longo* Posted Feb 20, 2010, 4:46 pm |
This type of "training voucher" has already been in the game for over a year, just not as prizes from town events. If you complete RP missions, in at least 2 of them you get this. |
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Fealty Lost Posted Feb 20, 2010, 4:53 pm |
Thanks for the uninvite, Sam, I'll be sure to exercise it.
Your 'tiered' league is nothing but a DR without a track...and a new reward. Pffffffffft. A Yoda-spa. What happens when the players become bored with that? MORE skill cap-beaters per event? Slippery slope and all that.... Institute individual vehicle surrenders in PvP that render them bullet-proof and remove them from combat. Shorten escape distances to 150 meters for PvP. Institute loot screens based on actual vehicles/equipment faced that artificially generate loot for the winner without taking from the loser. That's how to make PvP popular. For actual warring, make a "Not Safe" option that must be checked by both players, which would remove safeties and make the combat live and deadly. Griefing would be impossible, since you could surrender and make your vehicles invulnerable to fire and a turn cap of at least 25 turns of actual firing weapons before a loot screen is generated and a surrender cap of 10 turns, so a newbie could surrender on Turn 1 against someone trying to hunt newbies that would NOT generate loot...and noone is considered a winner/loser. Players who surrender in the first turn must wait only 5 minutes to redeploy their squad, while the attacker must wait 1 hour before being able to hunt again. FF: Endgame? Then DW needs what many veteran players have already suggested: a ride on the mythical boats from the mythical port far south that take them to new, deadlier lands...where they must start anew (or with very small contingent of vehicles, since they must be transported on a ship). This would remove older veteran gangs from Evan, giving newer gangs the chance at camps, influencing the economy and doing all those things that the older players are bored with. Adding uber-gangs to Evan for older players will just give them a bunch of new stuff to overcharge everyone for and isn't that what you're/they're doing now and complaining about it being boring? Then there are interactive camps, which many have discussed on threads FAR longer and more prolific than the league thread...but time constraints are upon us. .02 ...but worth so, so much more. |
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*sam* Posted Feb 20, 2010, 4:56 pm |
I don't think I have ever seen a suggestion with "please exploit me" written across it in larger letters. |
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*Ayjona* Posted Feb 20, 2010, 4:58 pm |
[quote=Longo]This type of "training voucher" has already been in the game for over a year, just not as prizes from town events. If you complete RP missions, in at least 2 of them you get this.[/quote]
I had no idea. But the fact that they are already available does not justify their existence, or explain it
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*sam* Posted Feb 20, 2010, 5:01 pm |
Does it really need explaining? Skill-caps are an artificial construct, why are they suddenly being seen as an example of realism that shouldn't be contravened? Skill-caps are a representation of how good a character can personally get through field-training and normal training centre work. There are gurus who can train them higher than that. Seems simple to me. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 20, 2010, 5:02 pm |
Oh please damon, it would take ages for most newer gangs to get started if there were no vets around to supply and help them...
And about the UBER gang with UBER stuff, we already had a thread about that, and good ideas were made, even if we have that armored APC, it cant be repaired or maintained, it would naturally degrade, also, it would be darned near impossible to capture one intact to begin with, since that uber gang is most likely to blow you to hell first... |
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*Ayjona* Posted Feb 20, 2010, 5:05 pm |
Every now and then, all non-mainstream MMOs receive suggestions titled "this is how to gain more players", "this is how to make PvP less severe", "this is why DW will never be as big as WoW", etc. Even DW occasionally sees posts that read "this systems does not cater to the standard player, so please remove it". Many a great indie game cave in to this pressure eventually. But what to keep in mind is that they were purposefully built this way, with the intentions of providing a different gaming atmosphere. And that is why games like DW attracts players such as US, who have grown so tired (or, in my case, never ever had any energy for) the mainstream titles. Invincible vehicles? Magic loot? That is anathema to everything DW stands for. |
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*Ayjona* Posted Feb 20, 2010, 5:21 pm |
[quote=*sam*]Does it really need explaining? Skill-caps are an artificial construct, why are they suddenly being seen as an example of realism that shouldn't be contravened?
Skill-caps are a representation of how good a character can personally get through field-training and [i]normal [/i]training centre work. There are gurus who can train them higher than that. Seems simple to me.[/quote] While I ill like to rely on rethoric, EVERYTHING in DW are artificial constructs. Human beings certainly don't have DW's fixed set of skills. There is no true realism, which is why expressions such as "relative realism" apply. Anything could be justified, in any way, if you take this stance. One of the great strengths of DW, and you as a world-builder and storyteller, is that you never have. If this becomes the dominant argument ("artificial mechanical constructs have no relation to canon, and can be treated any way"), the gaming world quickly breaks down. I've seen this process in many MMOs, and it often ends with the players growing complacent, and accepting solutions and explanations that could so easily have been improved. While this will never happen to DW, us as players hounding you for better in-canon explanations is a good thing, and can only serve to improve DW's gaming world, and motivate you to improve your methods. As for the actual argument: if there indeed are gurus who can train characters beyond their limits (which seems unlikely enough, given that within the fields of pedagogy and andragogy, the dominant paradigm is that once you reach a certain level of adeptness, teaching gradually loses it's effectiveness, and you can only improve significantly through self-education. Not the other way around), it seems very unlikely to me that their services would be given away to competition winners. Unlikely, and not very dramatic. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 20, 2010, 5:29 pm |
I don't see why not, it doesn't really have to be "Guru's", maybe just some high quality training, doesn't seem very out of place to me, no matter how much you know, or how good you are, you can always get better, with the proper training. Remember, the arena events and race events are run by the richest of the rich, and the Mob, both should have plenty of connections... Anyway, I'll stick by the point that this is a really good prize... |
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*Ayjona* Posted Feb 20, 2010, 5:34 pm |
Yes, I maintain that in all other respects than the one I mention above, it is a really good prize. (I was never fond of absolute skill caps to being with (as compared to gradual and drastic slowdowns of skill gain), and stretching them is a good thing, to my mind.) |
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Feb 20, 2010, 5:39 pm |
Everyone seems concerned by the 30 point skill increase for a ganger, but have you actually looked at the various leagues? 30 points is only for the winner of Division 1 and the amount goes down from there. If you compete in Division 5, you have no chance at skill or camp increase.
My $0.05 |
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*Ayjona* Posted Feb 20, 2010, 5:45 pm |
Nope. As I've said several times, the actual skill gain part of the prize is a great addition. It does not concern me at all. So I agree with yer post
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Joel Autobaun Posted Feb 20, 2010, 5:54 pm |
It's a good point. Div I costs 1 mil to enter too. You can work your way up to dev 1 in more than 1 REAL year. Along the way how many gangers are you going to LOSE? |
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Feb 20, 2010, 5:54 pm |
My post was more for some of the naysayers earlier in the thread. Rare that I actually agree with FF. 
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Lord Foul Posted Feb 21, 2010, 2:48 am |
For those of you who were thinking of joining the new PVP squad league, but were hesitant due the rewards not being up to par, there was some discussion in the RC about this and Sam has modified the rewards for all the divisions to entice those that wanted more in return for the effort.
All prize money will be divided evenly depending on how many players are in the squad. All training bonuses and production bonuses will go to each player on the team and will not be divided up. So if the top prize is 20 points in training and you have 3 players on your team, each player will receive a 20 point training voucher. Sweet Get your team together and join a division soon as there is 1 week left for signups and space is limited. |
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*Longo* Posted Feb 21, 2010, 3:38 am |
Also note Sam's recent change allowing gangs to compete in 2 different Divisions, as long as they only LEAD one. So if you belong to two camps and wanted to support them both, now you can.
These are great rewards, so make a team, even if its in the lowest Division. Whats the most you will lose? a few recently recruited gangers? |
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*sam* Posted Feb 21, 2010, 9:14 am |
BTW we're most likely going to restrict the leagues running this year to Div 5 and Div 4, due to lack on entries. Anyone already registered to higher leagues will be refunded. | ||||||||
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Alocalypse Posted Feb 21, 2010, 10:35 am |
I like vouchers because they make sense gameplay wise and can be justified if you don't think too hard about it.
EDIT: I would probably personally roleplay this as eating the brains of your slain opponents and gaining their knowledge/power through that.
But I'd like to hear the in-game explanation to that. How do they know? Why can't I tell my gunners to pretend to suck when they're being evaluated by the Evan Equality and Fairness Bureau? Darkwind: 2053 everyone will finally be equal. Also gameplay wise, it's a bit meh, if people are willing to risk their awesome gunners in pvp then it's their business and they should be allowed to. I think most people wouldn't anyway, but the higher the stakes the more exiting it is for me. If character skills matter so much that it's impossible to beat someone with higher skilled characters, then maybe character skills should be nerfed to hell rebalanced so the game is all about level grinding and not tactics/skill. Also if you want to make it "fair" using that kind of system then it should probably be capped by total weapon skill not individual skill (gunnery+ballistics+large guns) because someone with 3 skills at 50+ has 3 specialisms and is significantly more useful than someone with just one skill at 50. You should also cap courage to cover everything since winning depends on surrendering. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 21, 2010, 2:20 pm |
Some of us have already made plans... and some of us does not have gangers in the 60 - 90 skill range... every guy I use that isnt below 30 is over 100, so this would just be mean... Also, we already made plans
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*sam* Posted Feb 21, 2010, 2:37 pm |
Sure, we could restrict it to 1 - 3 - 5, but what about the people who made plans to be in Div 4? It's not ideal I know FF, but what's the point of making plans if you're the only team in the division? |
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FireFly Posted Feb 21, 2010, 2:43 pm |
Longo has a squad in division 1
My point is thou, if you want to restrict them, have the highest one free, and the lowest one free, not just forcing everything to fight in the lowest tiers. Cause, again, neither of the guys on my team and me have proper lower skilled characters, and I bet others would have that issue to... Anyway, I think there will be some pretty fierce competition in Div 1 |
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*jimmylogan* Posted Feb 21, 2010, 2:50 pm |
You have people that are not at the maximum for that Div, but that would fit anyway, so I don't think this is relevant.
The more people you have playing, the fiercer the competition, and the more people that get to play and enjoy... |
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FireFly Posted Feb 21, 2010, 3:06 pm |
Jimmy, what is your point?
I don't see why restricting the higher div's in favor of low ones has any benefit whatsoever... |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 21, 2010, 3:15 pm |
Because nobody is signing up for the higher ones let alone the lower ones, this isnt all about you Firefly, others play as well, remember !!!! | ||||||||
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*Ninesticks* Posted Feb 21, 2010, 3:22 pm |
'...' FF does that symbolise that you have paused to actually consider what you are putting and answered your own question? 
Just in case it doesn't given the lack of take-up in the combat leagues it is perhaps wiser to go for the leagues that have a wider appeal/accessibility. The lower leagues are just that, more accessible in terms of crew risk, entry fee, and amount of CR that a player/team will need to control. Additionally is it possible that the idea is that players progess through the leagues via promotion? This gives a long-term game goal. Of course when the league first starts you have to cater for the fact that not necessarily everyone will fit in to the lower league(s) and you plan to open all the leagues up (hence the entry fees to deter frivolous entries for example). When this doesn't occur, as it is in this case, see the point above. Also do you think that the prizes like that offered in Division 1 should be available for fighting, what it would appear to be at this stage (say your team and Longo's), one single PvP combat? Seriously? |
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FireFly Posted Feb 21, 2010, 3:30 pm |
Ever thought that there are people who don't want to fight in the lowest tier, when the caps are so strict?
The lowest tier basically limits your team to 3 phoenixes with Gatling guns, and I'm unsure that even fits. Not to mention, the newer people, the ones the lower tier is setup for, will still have a helluva problem if all the vets are fighting in there, and that in turn will make them less probable to join. Do this, have 1 high tier, and 1 low tier open to start with, se who signs up for what one, lets say, have 1 or 2 and 5 or 4 open to begin with. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 21, 2010, 3:34 pm |
I dont think the higher leagues should be open now, keep the two lower leagues 4 and 5 wait for up take then open higher leagues, and the prizes in those are too high for a competition that is not full, a league shouldn't run if it hasn't a certain minimum amount of teams or this is open to abuse | ||||||||
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FireFly Posted Feb 21, 2010, 3:36 pm |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 21, 2010, 3:49 pm |
without take up, the leagues are not going to work anyway, but giving out major prizes to the odd two or three gangs is wrong | ||||||||
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FireFly Posted Feb 21, 2010, 4:08 pm |
And forcing players to play in the lowest leagues, were the rewards are insignificant to them, is also wrong...
... I think this needs rethinking... |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 21, 2010, 4:13 pm |
no i am not trying to force anyone to play, if you dont like the prizes back out i am sure sam will reimburse your start up money, but giving you or anybody else the prizes in the top tier for no work just the ability to pay for start up is wrong. Again i consider your arguments to be self serving and to be very honest it is boring me.
The leagues are a brilliant idea, but without full take up ( stated again ) there should not be the large prizes for the odd few ( stated yet again ) Div 1 - 1 team Longos Merry Men Lattes Raiders Div 2 - 1 team -Rezeaks Racers Arbiters Mirrored Pain Div 3 - no enteries Div 4 - 2 teams Renegades Of Thrash Metal Clarinbridge Crushers and Mirrored Pain Div 5 - 2 teams MADHAT and Weak Head Normal Forms this isnt even enough teams for one league let alone five |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Feb 21, 2010, 4:23 pm |
Forcing people into the lower leagues is wrong? How so? I notice you didn't reply to the point I made about the rewards of the higher leagues being vastly out of proportion to the risks unless there is a full take up. As it stands we will be lucky to fill one division let alone two or even your proposed four.
Don't like the idea of taking part in the lower leagues don't take part you are not being forced, but don't try and make an argument that the top league should be played with anything less than the full quota of teams. Regarding accessibility for vets, I notice you have at least 10 characters (I stopped counting at that point) that would be fit for Division 5, so with a team of three members being able to fill two or three cars shouldn't be overly arduous surely. Regarding next season, we will have a full 12 weeks to sort it out, not a few days as we have now. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 21, 2010, 4:27 pm |
Think for a moment, regular advancements wont WORK, if only 3 teams advance to div 3, then there still wont be enough teams there, and there will be less teams in the previous divisions, it wont work, your extreme optimism is frankly kind of disgusting.
And nine, its better to make sure you have everything ready from the get-go than make it work "On the Fly", even you should know that... (I also don't see a 30 skill person as usable in the league nine) |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 21, 2010, 4:29 pm |
your attitude is disgusting of late, try reeling that neck in Firefly and answer questions rather than skirt past them with your inherent tactic of i am right and you are all wrong.
The league cannot work at present, unless the prizes are lowered drastically and cost of sign up reduced or removed entirely, then maybe enough members will join, even then as a team based event this cuts the amount of teams available, maybe joint team membership should be dropped for now, and only single gang entries be allowed, at least then a few more teams can be created. Nice of you to edit out your angst |
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FireFly Posted Feb 21, 2010, 4:37 pm |
I thought the team aspect was one of the major appeals of this, except for the prices, now you want to strip both away?
The entry prices aren't all that harsh, if you enter as a team and split the costs, its not very expensive... Here is a simple explanation... 10 Teams in Div 5 3 Winners move to Div 4 Div 5 now only has 7 teams while 4 only has 3... Next year, The 3 people in div 4 move to div 3, and the cycle repeats, diminishing the teams in Tier 5... That's how it works right now, it wont work if we do it the way you want to... Also, that wasn't really an insult, I just don't like blind optimism. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 21, 2010, 4:38 pm |
Edit.
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FireFly Posted Feb 21, 2010, 4:44 pm |
Uh, not like having them thrown back... have you tried to insult me, I didn't notice it 
Also, you people really are jumping the gun on the team not filling out, it's only been 1 day since the announcement, maybe if you gave it a few days before decrying the PvP community? I know several people who will sign up, but haven't formed the team yet. Anyway, this is what I think should be done, not that you'll listen... Keep everything as it is, but remove division 2 and 4 completely, we should have enough people to have 3 divisions contested. |
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*Longo* Posted Feb 21, 2010, 4:46 pm |
FF-
Theres just not enough teams. Plain and simple. And besides, if it was just my team and yours in Division I, I just dont see it possible for you to even get second or third place, much less first.
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 21, 2010, 4:47 pm |
I am listening, doesn't mean i consider your answer to be right, or that just because you state it, that is what has to be done basically what Longo stated, this all needs a re think, i don't consider it a good idea at present to hand out the prizes as stated to so few. Though this is all a mute argument as we cannot have a league of two or three teams simple !!! |
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Feb 21, 2010, 5:55 pm |
Why don’t we wait and see if Division 4 and 5 fill up this week. If they do, then anyone in Div 4 can have the option to move up to Div 3 instead and those in 5 up to 4. Then others can have the option to join a division that still has available slots.
One camp is year is 3 or 4 months real time. We can get the kinks worked out this first year and if it goes well there should be more entries next year warranting more divisions. |
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*Toecutter* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 4:23 am |
I would have thought it would simpler having only an unlimited # of teams lowest Div for the first season, pop the 10 best teams next season into the next highest div.
Then each season pop five of the best from the lowest up, which will push the 5 best of the 2nd into the 3rd. The 3rd Div will play with only 5 teams in it's first season, then in it's 2nd will recieve 5 more from the 2nd Div to round it out to 10 teams, continue this untill you have filled all the Div's, only then start to implement moving down rules. I think the basic goal at the start of this league should be to fill the divisions, don't worry about moving teams down a division untill there are actualy limited spots to compete for... so cram everyone together at first and let the best start to float to the top. |
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Nekojin Posted Feb 22, 2010, 6:58 am |
Sounds like a good idea to me. That way, being in Div. I will actually mean something, more than just having a few million to throw at it. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 8:45 am |
The CR/Skill restrictions on tier 5 are ludicrously low, that is my main issue, if everyone is going to be forced in there, not the prizes. | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 9:51 am |
That won't work, toe.. the combats are done in a round-robin style, so with N teams, each team does N-1 combats. There's a limited number of weeks in the game year, and unreasonable to schedule more than one combat each per week. |
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*sam* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 9:52 am |
I'm just going to have to wait until probably tomorrow, see how the leagues are filling up, and make an executive decision on which ones to run. Anyone being dropped below where they wanted to be will be refunded the difference, of course. | ||||||||
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 9:55 am |
Yeah, its up to you after all...
Right now thou, there are 6 teams signed up in Div 4/5 4 teams in Div 1/2... |
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*sam* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 9:57 am |
Yep. Maybe it will be Div 2 and Div 5 then.. we'll see.. | ||||||||
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 9:59 am |
Or, if there are only a total of 10 teams, squash everyone into div 3, and make 3 demotions and 3 promotions...
But yeah, 2/5 sounds just right, I know for sure that simon has yet to make a team
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 22, 2010, 10:44 am |
Or division 4 | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 10:44 am |
maybe what we need is a bunch of NPC teams to fill out the gaps...? They would get demoted out of the league as more players started playing.
This would actually remove the need for season-by-season decision-making about stuff like promotion/relegation and would therefore remove a source of problems. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 10:58 am |
Sounds good sam, they wont pose the same challenge a real player would, but they will ensure that players have to fight to get some kind of place, instead of just sitting at 4th with 0 points...
I assume the AI teams will fight each other then, if so, I look forward to spectating them and placing bets, kinda like animal cage battles
"Go Parrotheads Go!" |
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Serephe Posted Feb 22, 2010, 11:03 am |
AI... in the PvP league? I really don't like that... Edit: FF has stumbled upon an interesting idea. Betting on AI vs AI fights. :> |
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*sam* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 11:12 am |
It's not ideal Sere, but as I said it makes the logistics much smoother. If there's a varied number of teams in the divisions, that means promoting/relegating 3 from each won't work, and if I promote more than 3 we'll end up with complaints from team owners who didn't want to get promoted, etc.
By using NPCs to ensure 10 teams per division, the whole system will at least function in an easy-to-understand way. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 11:15 am |
Yeah, It's not ideal...
But hey, It's the same system the leagues use, that's not ideal either really, but it works, hell, sometimes the AI even win those. Still, to reefer to that post I made before, We still just dont have enough players in general to support a PvP base, even if this is in the context of a league... Thought you would like that Sere, Now, I want to bet some money on my mutie friends
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Serephe Posted Feb 22, 2010, 11:23 am |
It's not only ideal though, it unbalances it completely... AI are incredibly easy to defeat compared to players. Having everyone in one division until we had enough people to fill out multiple divisions is infinitely preferable in my mind.
I want to PvP players, not AI.
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*sam* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 11:25 am |
How would you handle promotions then Sere? Let's say there's 6 teams in Div 2... if we promote 3 that leaves 3 in Div 1 and 3 in Div 2, which isn't viable. | ||||||||
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Serephe Posted Feb 22, 2010, 11:30 am |
Only way I can see, honestly, is to streamline the number of divisions... and even then, that relies on the pvp becoming more popular in the future which it may not... the town pvp went from being very popular to being... non existant.
I'm not trying to be difficult, I just really think AI is a bad idea for a PvP league. Someone mentioned making it single player entries instead of teams, too. Perhaps that would be a better way to start the leagues, than allowing 3 people per team -- which means 1/3rd the ammount og teams we could have otherwise. |
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*Wolfsbane* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 11:30 am |
If there are so few teams, why do we need divisions? If we currently only have enough interest to fill up one division then that's fine. Stick everyone in division 5 until it fills up, then open up division four and put half the people in there. Scale prizes based on the number of people in the divisions.
I understand the desire to have a well designed and stable system at the start, but if it was me I would just handle the promotion/relegation manually until I knew there was enough interest to keep the thing going. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 11:30 am |
And not to mention, keeping everyone in a division they don't want to fight in does little to help the fighting spirit...
I think the AI fillouts are the way to go for now... Wolf, the main reason for the divisions is to give people some flexibility in CR and Skill Cap, not everyone wants to fight with 625cr and 180skill, and not everyone wants to fight with 325cr and 60 skill, you have to give people some choice... |
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*sam* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 11:32 am |
Sure, that's what I was intending. But that doesn't answer my question to sere: who gets promoted? if we're all in Div 5 I can't promote 3 into Div 4 as that leaves Div 4 unviable. And I can't have a system where people don't know where the cutoff for promotion is, that would be chaotic.
It's not that simple.. as FF says, people have chosen their divisions and I can't arbitrarily move them to a different one. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 11:37 am |
How about this then, All points scored against the AI is halved, that should balance it to some extent right?
(AI vs AI would also be halved, of course) |
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Serephe Posted Feb 22, 2010, 11:37 am |
If that was easy to answer, someone smarter than me would have already
Honestly, I have no idea how to make it work. Having single player entries instead of teams has benefits and drawbacks So does shoving everyone into one bracket So does using AI to fill out leagues So does pretty much anything else |
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*sam* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 11:37 am |
That would make the scheduling of combats much harder. The idea of 3-person teams is so that you can, between you, be pretty sure of making it to the combat each week.
You may have missed the earlier announcement - we're now allowing you to be a member of multiple teams, as long as you're only the leader of one and as along as you're not a member of more than one in a single division. |
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*sam* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 11:39 am |
I don't understand why you'd do this. It's a round-robin league where everyone plays everyone else once, so we all play AIs the same amount. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 22, 2010, 11:40 am |
I dont like the idea of AI either 
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*sam* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 11:45 am |
We could reduce the number of teams in each division.. to 6, maybe. | ||||||||
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 11:47 am |
I say use the AI as fillers for now, it's a solid workaround, Just make them worth less points, if you don't like the AI fights, just consider them scouts or something like that, You'll still fight your share of other people...
And No, reducing the entry numbers is not the way to go, because sooner or later, your going to have to increase the numbers for, lets say, Div 5 if this thing catches on... By the way, I plan to join multiple teams, so that list ain't complete just yet
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Serephe Posted Feb 22, 2010, 11:47 am |
Better idea than anything I've come up with... see, this is why you're the one with the money.
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*Wolfsbane* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 12:32 pm |
Well, if I was running things my responses would be "yeah, so?" and "of course you can, they'll just have to lump it". But then you're a lot nicer than I am
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 22, 2010, 12:51 pm |
Whats the point of AI its not like they are not easy to beat, if i want to fight AI i would scout or join any of the number of combats etc.
put everyone into one division, make it human only PVP or what really is the point, apart from major high gain for no risk ( again ) |
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Fealty Lost Posted Feb 22, 2010, 12:52 pm |
Imagine if you will...
...a league where everyone started out as rookie gangers...let's call it... Amateur Night. Then...everyone fights it out in IDENTICAL vehicles...say, Marley with GG's. Participants are graded on amount of damage done, enemies killed/demo'd, overall position at finish of each competition. Once they hit "X" number of EVENT FAME points [ yes, you'll have to make that ], then they can advance to the next tier in the competition. The prizes scale up each tier. You MUST start in the Amateur Night events. Nobody starts in upper tiers. Instead of 'fixed' events: all participants choose two days to have competition each week, adjudicate an agreed upon time, and go at it. If no time can be reached, His Lord High and Mighty Man Behind the Curtain just sets them. Be there or be square. At Division 5...the "Pro" level, vehicle selection is totally at player's choice, within defined CR limits. Only characters who have earned the prerequisite Fame can join Div' 5 events. This way, everyone starts out the same, and it's skill and effort that advance their gangers. Prizes scale according to the Division, with the great "Yoda" prize available only in Division 5. Since this prize is NOT a thing that gets shoved into your ganger's head, but 'specialized' advanced training, it can be awarded to ANY ganger in the winner's crew, not just those who earned it. Sound familiar Car Wars players? That way, everyone could enter without stupid ridiculous entry fees. Play would be level with the only difference being skill of the real players. Luck and skill would be the order of the day. Vehicles are all identical, so no advantage is given there in the lower tiers. When it reaches Pro-level, the gloves come off. Run what ya brung. And an OTB setup would be fun, but totally exploitable by the usual suspects, so betting ain't a great idea. For extra fun; add Challenge Matches. For those really motivated persons, they can challenge an opponent one on one, once or twice a week. These fights would be TO THE DEATH...not submission, but would garner additional Fame bonusses. Also, with this system, if you suffer a catastrophic loss in the lower Divisions, you could field another rookie team and jump right back into the fight, since only those who EARN prerequisite levels of League Fame advance to the next tier. At the end of a 'year,' prizes are awarded for top teams/gangers based on total accumulated Fame. .02, but worth so, so much more. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 12:54 pm |
Damon, must you always come in and try to completely change how something works...?
And gro, why throw everyone in the same division, hell, we have more than 10 teams now, that wont even fit anymore. Alright, I can see why you would like everyone to start in the same division, and that would make sense... after a server restart... Some gangs are larger and richer than others, to me, it makes perfect sense for them to fight in the leagues with higher CR and Skillcaps. It's like giving goat a couple of raccoons and telling him he can only scout with that for a week
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Fealty Lost Posted Feb 22, 2010, 12:59 pm |
Yes, FF, because I think of 'down the road,' not just what's going to keep you from being bored NOW.
It's called proactive vs reactive. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 1:06 pm |
And here I thought that keeping myself from getting bored is why I (And others) play games
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 22, 2010, 1:22 pm |
The majority of teams are signing up for leagues 4 and 5, hence utilising those leagues for now.
And gro, why throw everyone in the same division, hell, we have more than 10 teams now, that wont even fit anymore. Buying your way in to a top tier just feels inherently wrong. Earn your status don't pay for it |
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 1:23 pm |
I don't know gro, over 10 people signed up for the 1&2, several of the teams in 4&5 consist of 1 player, don't count the high tier out yet
I don't see it as buying myself in really, many competitions have "Entry Fee's" that correspond with what you can win, the better the prices, the higher the entry fee. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 22, 2010, 1:25 pm |
it is supposedly a league not a prize competiton but of course you can only see the prize and not what sam is trying to achieve can you
your way or the highway again...i give up |
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 1:27 pm |
Your exactly the same gro, don't try to deny it.
Prizes are incentives to fight, prices are a goal, also, you trying to force everyone to compete in the lowest tier is the same as me wanting to fight in the higher tier. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 22, 2010, 1:28 pm |
No Firefly i only want to see the game improve, you just want to see yourself improve.
Is this not all to attempt to kick in PVP or have you forgotten that, if i wanted prizes i wouldn't have entered the division i did, i just want a challenge, where as you just want the prize |
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 1:37 pm |
Your saying fighting Longo and Latte for first place wont be a challenge?
Way to destroy your own argument there. Also, You want to see the the game improve along what you think is the best, that does not mean it is the best way, same could be said about my arguments. |
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*sam* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 1:44 pm |
Just to remind you, after this first season, the only division you will be able to add a new entry to is Div#5. The reason I let people join higher up ones this time was to get the whole thing set up. | ||||||||
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 1:47 pm |
Heh Sam, I remember how I originally questioned you about letting people join div 1 in the lobby and you explained all this
Maybe some sort of dynamic Challenge CR/skill would be better, but that would just over complicate things really... |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 22, 2010, 1:58 pm |
If its just you and lattes teams in Div 1 and then AI what is the challenge for second or first place, if everyone was in one league off course there would be a challenge. A large PVP based player challenge I have never stated ' do it this way' unlike you All members in one league, until the wrinkles are ironed out, full PVP challenge, smaller prizes ( for now ) untold bragging rights or have it your way, at least your bound to win something eh !!! 1st $3000000 25 25% 2nd $2400000 20 20% |
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 2:03 pm |
Well then, we do it your way, BUT, we move everyone to Div 1 instead, now, the playing field is leveled, right, now, I cant get free rewards, right? Now, if you don't want to fight in division one because the skill cap and CR is higher, well, then now you know what I feel when you want to force me to dogfight in compacts. And yes, I did the math, for division 5, between 3 players, even if we just use a phoenix with twin GG's each, it will come to a total of 354 cr, above the limit! |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 22, 2010, 2:08 pm |
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 2:11 pm |
–verb (used with object) 11. To have or form in the mind as an idea, conception, etc. 12. To consider for evaluation or for possible action Again, don't twist my words 
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*sam* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 2:21 pm |
Here's how it's going to work:
1. Each division will have a minimum of 6 teams; if there's less than 6 human entries then NPCs will make up the extra 2. The prizes will be reduced if there are less than 10 human teams in a division. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 2:29 pm |
That seems reasonable... but...
How much of a reduction are we talking about here? I just don't see how Div 1 will ever have 10 teams in it... |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 22, 2010, 2:38 pm |
how have i twisted your words, when that was a quote, please explain | ||||||||
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*Wolfsbane* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 2:41 pm |
It should be proportional IMO, so a 20% human division gives out 20% of the prizes. Otherwise it's just free money for beating up the AI. |
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*sam* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 2:46 pm |
Ever heard of quoting out of context? |
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*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Feb 22, 2010, 2:47 pm |
From the RC discussion:
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*sam* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 2:47 pm |
That was only one suggestion, Rez.. not a decision yet. | ||||||||
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*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Feb 22, 2010, 2:51 pm |
My bad, I thought that was what was already implemented 
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*Wolfsbane* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 2:55 pm |
To expand on what I said earlier - one test of the system should be that if I join a league and automatically surrender to the humans, but beat the AIs, I should at best get my money back. | ||||||||
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*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Feb 22, 2010, 2:57 pm |
True, I can see how a league could be exploited if there are only, say, 3 teams. Which is why I like the idea of the league not running if it doesn't get more than that |
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 3:20 pm |
About the "Surrendering/Exploiting" thing, I think its pretty easy to check if the battle was actually played or not. Although I'd say let a league run at 60% price with 3 entry's... |
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*Wolfsbane* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 3:31 pm |
... because you want free money for beating AIs. | ||||||||
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 3:37 pm |
... The AI's were never my suggestion to begin with... | ||||||||
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*Longo* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 4:24 pm |
FF-
Your complaining in this thread has made it very difficult to read. |
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*sam* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 4:26 pm |
Guys, leave him alone already, he hasn't been complaining that much! | ||||||||
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*Longo* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 4:29 pm |
All-
If your planning on making a team, please do it sooner than later, so Sam knows what he has to play with. We presently have 11 teams, keep em coming. Remember you can be on 2 teams, as long as you only lead one, and they are in different Divisions. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 22, 2010, 4:51 pm |
Planning to enter a division 2 one later, I just need my friend to go online so he can create it... | ||||||||
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*Bastille* Posted Feb 22, 2010, 9:51 pm |
I've been procrastinating about it for a day now, better get in there before the boat leaves. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 22, 2010, 10:03 pm |
Divisions 4 and 5 are looking fun Bast' | ||||||||
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*Toecutter* Posted Feb 23, 2010, 4:24 am |
Well Sam, I think my idea still has merit if you abandon the round robin format for the lowest "unlimited Div" and simply have random match-ups where you just don't fight the same person twice.
Also it would leave the bottom div open for as many players that would like to field a team... this would eliminate the need for AI fillers and would build the league on a skill basis as opposed to who had the most cash to buy in at the begining.... |
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*Zothen* Posted Feb 23, 2010, 9:50 am |
This new league was announced on the 19th and will be closed for signup on the 25th - seriously? | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Feb 23, 2010, 10:58 am |
Yep. Time is tight this season.. these leagues have to work this way because the events all have to be pre-scheduled with full knowledge of who is in each league. They'll be open for signup for a full 2 weeks at the start of 2054. |
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*Bastille* Posted Feb 23, 2010, 3:05 pm |
Yeh, I think Div 4/5 is a perfect start for the casual player like myself Hope I can make all my event times... seeing you can play early if both agree, this really should be no problem.
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 23, 2010, 3:45 pm |
Or start a team and get some members in different time zones, or join one with the same parameters
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*sam* Posted Feb 23, 2010, 4:09 pm |
Yep, one of the main reasons for 3-person teams is so you can cover different timezones on any week where you don't manage to agree with your opponent.. | ||||||||
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 23, 2010, 4:22 pm |
That'll be goat then
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simonmaxhill Posted Feb 24, 2010, 12:57 am |
Any chance of rolling div 1-3 into one? Five seperate divisions seems like way too many, given the level of actual interest. | ||||||||
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Joel Autobaun Posted Feb 24, 2010, 1:57 am |
screw you simon. Roll Div 4 in to 3 and 2 into 1.
Maybe Wait till thursday. |
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simonmaxhill Posted Feb 24, 2010, 2:32 am |
Joel's idea of div 4+3 being combined and 1+2 being combined sounds like a far more sensible idea than mine.
I'd also totally love to fight Joel! I only joined Div IV because there were more people in it. |
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*Bastille* Posted Feb 24, 2010, 2:58 am |
you Mean I could be beaten up by Sam What a pleasure
Edit: Not sure if just timing, but I'm quite welcome to the idea of PvP in this way. So this league is a great idea in my opinion. 
Edit Edit: The joining sounds a good solution to lack of numbers, better than More NPCs as filler. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Feb 24, 2010, 5:20 am |
Trying to convince Serephe to let me join his team...he's playing hard to get. |
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*Longo* Posted Feb 24, 2010, 5:56 am |
18 teams! yippee!
Keep em joining! Got a day left to join! 
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Serephe Posted Feb 24, 2010, 6:15 am |
But I want to be the one who kicks his ass! |
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*sam* Posted Feb 24, 2010, 8:16 am |
If anyone wants to move their team into a different division, please let me know ASAP. I don't want to forcibly move anyone. |
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*sam* Posted Feb 24, 2010, 9:22 am |
BTW I'm reducing the effect on faction reps by 70%, in squad league combats versus NPCs. They'd be less annoyed by you damaging them since it's part of a consentual league. | ||||||||
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FireFly Posted Feb 24, 2010, 9:28 am |
So sam... what is the verdict?
At the current rate, will Div 1 and 2 even get launched, or just nerfed? |
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*sam* Posted Feb 24, 2010, 9:47 am |
Sorry, I thought I'd already explained...
1. Any division with less than 6 teams in will be filled out to 6 with NPC entries 2. Anyone who wants to move division can do so by PMing me ASAP 3. Prizes are reduced by 5% for each human team less than 10 in the division Also, don't forget this is your one and only chance to enter these leagues in anything other than Div 5. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 24, 2010, 9:55 am |
Oh, I thought I heard something about there being a minimum of 4 teams...
But if it's like that, it's all good, is there a restriction on the number you can join, or just like 1 per division? I'm in div 1 and 2, could I join a div 4 team on top of that? Oh, also, you did program it so that the AI will fight on our preferred times, right?
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*sam* Posted Feb 24, 2010, 10:00 am |
That was an earlier idea, before I decided on using AI teams.
No restriction, you can be in every division if you like, but only leader of one team. Note that if, due to promotion/relegation you end up belonging to two teams in the same division next season, you'll be auto-booted from one of them.
Yep |
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FireFly Posted Feb 24, 2010, 10:07 am |
I suddenly remembered one of the reasons I like DW so much
(No really) |
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pook Posted Feb 25, 2010, 2:56 am |
I don't suppose you want more entrants?
I stupidly thought I had until the end of Thursday to enter, any chance of a late entry? |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Feb 25, 2010, 3:02 am |
I though thursday too...damn
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Feb 25, 2010, 7:36 am |
I thought we had another day as well. Finally got someone to agree to join my team and now they are not able to
Any way to at least extend the time for people to join existing teams? |
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*sam* Posted Feb 25, 2010, 8:18 am |
If any of the existing team owners PM me the names of additional members who want to join, I can manually add them. | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Feb 25, 2010, 9:01 am |
OK, the leagues were successfully filled out with NPC gangs, and the combat schedules have been created.. the timing seems to have worked fine (if the two sides' prefs don't agree, then the closest possible time that's halfway between two of their prefs is picked).
Since no league had more than 8 teams, that gave me the leeway to start the first combat in 9 days time rather than 2 days time, and still be able to finish them all before the end of 2053. All seems good so far.. you should be able to move scheduled dates now, automatically if your opponent is an NPC, or with the consent of your opponent if they're a human team. Please post here the event IDs of any squad league combats that run! -- I want to check the game logs and scoring system etc. for correctness/bugs. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 25, 2010, 9:17 am |
Currently, only the team leader can see what times the combats will be and against who, maybe you can make it visible to the entire team? | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Feb 25, 2010, 9:21 am |
No, everyone should be able to see them. The team lead is the only one who can suggest new times or accept suggested times though. | ||||||||
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FireFly Posted Feb 25, 2010, 9:29 am |
Oh right, nevermind... | ||||||||
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 25, 2010, 11:06 am |
This all looks very cool
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*Wolfsbane* Posted Feb 25, 2010, 3:16 pm |
I have two events scheduled at the same time (in two different leagues). Is that a bug, or just a consequence of scheduling difficulties?
Edit - I wish I'd thought to put a team in division 3 now. Enjoy your prize 4
Edit edit - all the AIs seems to be based in SS. Will they play in the opponent's home town, or will their home games be in SS? Seems important for division 1. |
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*sam* Posted Feb 25, 2010, 4:10 pm |
Belonging to 2 different leagues wasn't initially part of the design.. and yeah, trying to deal with this one automatically would be a nightmare. You'll have to work around it by changing combat times and/or getting team-mates to run without you.
The AI's home games are in SS, yes. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 25, 2010, 6:21 pm |
Am i missing something, where can you see where the home town is for the actual events ? | ||||||||
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Feb 25, 2010, 8:53 pm |
Each team's home town is listed in the Current Standings box. Depending on who is the home team will determine location.
I have a couple of questions: 1. Are these arena or wilderness events? 2. Will the server somehow be able to limit the use of characters based on the division limits or is this an honor based system? |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 25, 2010, 8:59 pm |
So i assume i am not seeing any difference in home towns as all opponents are somerset as me |
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*sam* Posted Feb 25, 2010, 10:05 pm |
Any characters that are too high-skilled will not be spawned into the event; similarly any vehicles that take the squad above the CR limit, and any cars belonging to anyone other than the team members. |
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*sam* Posted Feb 25, 2010, 10:06 pm |
Yes, the Div IV teams are all based in SS. |
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*Longo* Posted Feb 25, 2010, 10:12 pm |
Ive got a maxed ganger who is maxed at the limit. If he actually has a little bit more than the maximum skills and its rounded down, does the game consider this? |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 25, 2010, 10:21 pm |
Also have these events a time limit or are they fight to the death or surrender, hoping for a time limit to keep down those long no contact events that may happen !! | ||||||||
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*Bastille* Posted Feb 25, 2010, 11:08 pm |
Are reloads allowed as per a normal scout PvP?
Will characters that have skills besides Weapons skills above the division Max be excluded from spawning? The max players per squad is 3. Is there a Max to the number of vehicles allowed per squad? Once you set the squad per event, can the squad be changed again? |
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theHumungous Posted Feb 26, 2010, 12:50 am |
lol. Good points on the number of cars. Hahahah. I can see a team of 20 raccoons or something equally silly. That's a lot of guns though! And a lot of targets to take out too. | ||||||||
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Procyon Posted Feb 26, 2010, 12:53 am |
ZERG BUGGIES! kekekekekekekekekekeke |
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*Zothen* Posted Feb 26, 2010, 12:25 pm |
Seriously, that the leagues are filled up with AIs made this league a joke imo. Whats the deal to fight against AIs? They are stupid like a brick.. Are they anyway scaled for this league? Something like 1vs2 odds? | ||||||||
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Serephe Posted Feb 26, 2010, 12:33 pm |
Looking forward to FF bragging about looting some kind of rare loot during the PvP against AI.
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*sam* Posted Feb 28, 2010, 11:03 pm |
if it rounds down to the limit, you're ok |
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*sam* Posted Feb 28, 2010, 11:05 pm |
No time limit at the moment.. could be changed if it seems necessary after a few tests. I could easily imagine one team demo'ing just one car of the opposition and then disengaging.. they'd be able to win that way. I think subtleties in strategy will become apparent.. |
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*sam* Posted Feb 28, 2010, 11:07 pm |
Reloads as normal yes, it's just a regular squad. Only the weapons skills are tested against the division limit. You can field an 800 skill scout if you like
No max vehicles, only max total CR. Once the squad is set, you can change it yes. |
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*sam* Posted Feb 28, 2010, 11:09 pm |
I don't think so zothen. Firstly, only some divisions have a lot of AI. Secondly, everyone plays the same number of AI opponents so winning the league against the humans in it remains competitive. Thirdly, the AI will get relegated and more player teams will hopefully enter in at the bottom and gradually fill out the divisions. |
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*sam* Posted Feb 28, 2010, 11:11 pm |
BTW I see no-one has run any of these combats early, yet.. the first round of combats are now well within the 10-day limit so could be run anytime. | ||||||||
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*Longo* Posted Feb 28, 2010, 11:30 pm |
Im planning on it myself Sam, just had to move all of my guys down to BL to have enough to make it my hometown... now moving em back to SS (plus about 7 extra) because everyones hometown in the leagues is SS except for Me and FF I believe. So much for wanting to leave SS
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*Longo* Posted Feb 28, 2010, 11:33 pm |
It would have been much easier if the leagues filled up with players, but not enough signed up. Where is your team Zothen? |
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simonmaxhill Posted Feb 28, 2010, 11:41 pm |
I'm also very against AI in leagues, but I'm hoping after we see the PVP leagues where the AI win exactly zero events, we can remove them from future leagues and come up with a new solution.
I haven't done any events in my league because I've had to ship up the requisite skill gangers from the southern reaches to SS... I imagine there's a lot of shipping up of characters and cars right now, in addition to retooling of vehicles for PVP action. By mid this week I'm hoping to be running PVP league events regularly. |
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*Longo* Posted Mar 1, 2010, 12:26 am |
Im against them also, but when it came down to it, there wasnt alot of alternatives. |
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simonmaxhill Posted Mar 1, 2010, 1:41 am |
I understand the divisions were underpeopled, but I think those divisions should have been either
A. Not run B. Rolled into larger leagues of at least 6 players A league with 3 players and any number of AI just guarantees those 3 players a reward simply for paying the entry fee. |
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*Longo* Posted Mar 1, 2010, 1:45 am |
I don't disagree. But Sam was on a time constraint and had to make a decision. So we will play i tout a year and then get an opportunity to improve on it hopefully. |
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FireFly Posted Mar 1, 2010, 4:25 am |
Things sure have changed since I left town...
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Mar 1, 2010, 10:48 am |
Oh it has we even have a cinema and Mc Donalds now | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Mar 1, 2010, 2:18 pm |
FYI, I'm implementing a 400-turn limit on squad combat league events. Whoever has demo'd the most CR from the enemy team will be declared the winner at that point.
In case you didn't know how scoring works: whoever demo's the greatest CR from the enemy scores 2 league points. The actual CR demo'd for/against is used as a tie-breaker (like goals scored/conceded in football). In the unlikely event of equal CR demo'd (or in the case that neither team register a squad for the event), both teams get 1 point. |
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*Zothen* Posted Mar 1, 2010, 4:22 pm |
My resub, getting used to combat again, announcement and time to signup was too close for me to signup. Sam, I still disagree with NPC in the league and congratulate 4saken for the $1500000 bonus money he will get. Equal AI numbers are NO enemy. |
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*sam* Posted Mar 1, 2010, 4:37 pm |
That's $825000 actually.. BTW if you do want to join an existing team or enter your own team Zothen, let me know.. I can still manually make changes.. |
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Mar 1, 2010, 5:16 pm |
There are no goals in football, just touchdowns and extra points.
I do have a serious question about the outcome. Does the winner of the event get to loot the losers cars or after one team demos does the event just end like an arena combat? |
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*sam* Posted Mar 1, 2010, 5:29 pm |
Looting as normal (assuming one side has fully demo'd before 400 turns) |
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Mar 1, 2010, 6:07 pm |
Will the loser possibly have a ped return encounter as well? | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Mar 1, 2010, 6:59 pm |
No, they're all going to be Gates maps, so automatic safe return after the combat | ||||||||
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FireFly Posted Mar 1, 2010, 8:10 pm |
On the page, I can assign "Any" squad to the battle, or so it seems, I thought it was limited to the town? | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Mar 1, 2010, 8:26 pm |
I wouldn't recommend trying a squad that's in a different town, they won't be able to spawn into the event. You're right though, the web page shouldn't list out-of-town squads. | ||||||||
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Lord Foul Posted Mar 3, 2010, 6:37 am |
Question:
I've noticed over the years that the SS gates spawn encounters are always right on top of each other, about 110m and it's easy for one gang to have an advantage over another in these types of spawns. Will using a skilled scout in the combat leagues help with this at all or will the SS gates always spawn at close range so we shoot each other as soon at the event begins? I've noticed other towns besides SS will have a better variety of spawns that go from short, medium or long range. SS appears to lack this variety in its spawns. |
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Djihani Posted Mar 3, 2010, 11:32 am |
Missed this whole hoolabalooza... (dont usually read league stuff)
Just in case someone/somewhere is short on people I'm announcing myself to be available to add to anywhere to aid this experiment. Meaning if Sam needs me somewhere, just put me there and PM me, or if a team is short, PM Sam for using me. Just for the greater good and funzz. |
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*sam* Posted Mar 3, 2010, 12:26 pm |
Unless they turned tail and escaped without demo'ing (which can happen) then I'd say it's the same bug that LF had, Latte..
basically when all characters are unconscious, a car's CR can flip to zero before it demos (this code was written for arena events to stop scoring on a disabled car).. I fixed this problem this morning, for squad league events. I'll check your event ID and update your demo+ score if necessary.. |
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FireFly Posted Mar 3, 2010, 6:02 pm |
1 1
Team Hellrazors Somerset -^-HellRazors-^- 581 How can he demo above 550 in one battle when that is the limit? |
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*sam* Posted Mar 3, 2010, 6:53 pm |
The NPCs are allowed to go slightly over the limit | ||||||||
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FireFly Posted Mar 3, 2010, 8:22 pm |
Well, that makes sense, just slightly afraid it will turn into a "Luckiest NPC spawns" kinda thing
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Mar 4, 2010, 6:22 am |
I have a couple more questions
5x5 was lucky enough to defeat Madhat Maniacs tonight and The Pentagon camp fame went from max of 459 to 552, an increase of 93 points! How long can we expect this increased max fame to last? How far in advance can you do the battles? My next one is scheduled against an NPC. |
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*sam* Posted Mar 4, 2010, 12:10 pm |
Yeah, I noticed that the camp fame bonuses were perhaps too high.. I'll revisit these as soon as I get time. PvP camp fame reduces on a weekly basis. You can do battles max. 10 days in advance of their original scheduled time |
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Mar 4, 2010, 5:36 pm |
Can you give us advance notice before you tweak them, if that means you’ll be removing some of the fame we received over and above the normal weekly reduction. I am going to take advantage of the fame we got by upping production in my manufacturing plants and would like a chance to drop it back down so buildings don't take damage. |
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simonmaxhill Posted Mar 4, 2010, 7:08 pm |
haha - our camp fame loss for my loss against Jeelz was 158 points of fame and our entire bonuses! Brutality!
The pendulum really swings wildly with PVP. |
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*Tinker* Posted Mar 4, 2010, 10:05 pm |
Just wondering how long the PvP league prize production boosts last for, a year?, 6 months?
In div IV 1st place is 10%, but after doing PvP battles (squad challenges for example) production boosts can be greatly increased, or decreased, that make the league's bonus look like penuts |
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*sam* Posted Mar 4, 2010, 10:18 pm |
The bonuses last for 12 months. The PvP combat bonuses for camps do seem to outweigh them right now, and may need rebalancing, but it's not a problem in itself is it? After all, if these leagues are a way to earn camp fame by winning combats, as much as via the overall prize, that's ok. | ||||||||
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Mar 4, 2010, 10:22 pm |
It isn't a problem for the winning side but how severe is it for the loser? Don't want it to cripple a camp as that is no fun.
Fort New lost 74 points against me yesterday and now their fame is well below the current building upkeep which means the buildings will all take damage at server update tonight. Is it ok/possible for it to be a big plus for the winner but only a small or no loss for the loser? |
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*sam* Posted Mar 4, 2010, 10:36 pm |
As I said, it probably should be re-balanced.. I'll try to get a go at that tomorrow | ||||||||
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*Tinker* Posted Mar 4, 2010, 11:39 pm |
Yes and no, right now the short-term changes seem a little out of whack After this battle Havoc's fame grew by 126 and its production boosts grew by 100% Yesterday it was the opposite when Simon lost (or similar) --- The camp`s fame dropped by 156 due to the combat between DD All Stars and Firelight Bureau of Fish and Game. In addition, its production boosts dropped by 71% edit: maybe if the legue's bonus was permanent for a year and it became the camps base PR? |
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Mar 5, 2010, 12:04 am |
Where do you see the Production boost in camp? I only saw an increased fame at The Pentagon. | ||||||||
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*Tinker* Posted Mar 5, 2010, 1:39 am |
In the camps info page you see the total, and in the activities page you see the details |
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Serephe Posted Mar 5, 2010, 1:40 am |
Something odd -- Ninesticks and myself fought, and gained fame twice for his camp which we were both flagged for. | ||||||||
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*Ninesticks* Posted Mar 5, 2010, 1:52 am |
Yep I was wondering about that - is it something to do with the fact that you demo'd one of my cars? | ||||||||
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Serephe Posted Mar 5, 2010, 1:56 am |
Could be. Even so, it's possibly SLIGHTLY exploitable and should probably get a look at. | ||||||||
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Mar 5, 2010, 2:17 am |
I don't say anything like this at all. Maybe I don't have a production increase so nothing shows up. |
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Mar 5, 2010, 8:11 am |
I'm not sure what is going on with camp fame so if someone can clarify it would be appreciated.
The Pentagon's max fame had been 459 up until the Squad Combat yesterday at which point it went up to 552. Tonight it dropped from 552 down to 503 at server update. That seems ok as I expected the usual drop plus 5% of the extra fame. After the update I went and did a scout and killed 5 pirates but we got 0 fame so I am not sure if the fame is maxed at 503 now or what is going on. Based on the 5% drop I expected that would give us a max fame of 524 this week. Sorry this is the first time I have ever had to work with a positive or negative change to max fame.
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Mar 6, 2010, 5:17 pm |
*bump*
Looking for an explanation on camp fame
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*sam* Posted Mar 6, 2010, 6:27 pm |
Marc: camp fame can gain from both pvp and pve combats; however there's a cap on how high pve events can push it but no such cap for pvp. So you're going to see it sliding back to your previous max unless you do more pvp.
BTW I intend to check and probably revise pvp fame gains/losses: they seem perhaps too high at the moment, judging from the results seen in the squad combat league so far. |
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*Longo* Posted Mar 6, 2010, 6:37 pm |
Heheh. Yea 116 fame is a bit much on a loss, thats for sure. | ||||||||
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Mar 7, 2010, 4:39 am |
Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense. The gains/losses are pretty extreme so tweaking is probably a good idea.
Now another question from this newb camp owner. The production % gains that we can win in the league, how are those applied? Say I get first in division 5 and earn the 5% production increase. Does that mean that everything I produce at camp will be produced 5% faster, 5% less goods, 5% more Mech points or something else entirely? |
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*sam* Posted Mar 7, 2010, 11:34 am |
The % production increases are applied:
1. To 'extraction' facilities (food, water, fuel, etc.) -- they produce more materials 2. To manufacturing -- producing items takes less time Boosts gained directly thru pvp combat, if your camp is 'open pvp', also somewhat increase the camp's mech rating. However, the final prize earned from the new squad leagues won't do this. |
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Mar 8, 2010, 3:50 am |
Since I am so full of ####, I mean questions, I have another one.
I noticed in Division 5 that Holy Order of the Lambda Cube and Triumphant! (sorry for calling you guys out) had a draw and I wanted to check out the fight so I went looking on their events pages for the event id and it looks like they didn't even battle. I am guessing one or both of them clicked "Truce" at the beginning of the fight. I do not have a problem with them trucing but should they really get 1 point for that? They are now ahead of Madhat and V8 Vikings (who both had a loss) in league points as well as demo points. IMO if you truce without fighting, you should get 0 points not 1. If you have a battle and by some miraculous chance both players demo on the same turn then 1 point is ok, but otherwise, it is more advantageous to truce then to go into battle and lose. This could be abused by friends although I’m not saying they purposefully abused it. |
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*sam* Posted Mar 8, 2010, 9:27 am |
Neither team fielded a squad, Marc, so that counted as a draw. I figured 1 point for a draw was reasonable, but it equally could be 0 if it's a cancelled event I guess. | ||||||||
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Mar 8, 2010, 10:17 am |
I talked with Triumph while scouting with him tonight and he didn't realize that there would not be a pop-up head saying to prepare.
Might want to make sure everyone knows that the event will not show up in Upcoming Events, just the Live Events once the start time has arrived. Guess a little late for that though
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*sam* Posted Mar 8, 2010, 10:18 am |
There should have been a popup head.. | ||||||||
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Mar 8, 2010, 10:22 am |
I didn't get one with the combat I did. I also don't get them whenever I have to do a camp defense.
To be fair to Madhat and V8 (even though NPC) should give Lambda and Triumph another chance to do the combat. That is just my opinion though...I got my 2 points for first week.
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Mar 10, 2010, 5:42 am |
An issue that has come up both times I have done the Squad Combat League. A few minutes after the event the gangers are shown as being in town but the Squad still says "Please wait, the squad's arrival into Somerset will be complete within the next few minutes..."
In my first event I was able to immediately remove the cars from the squad on the Vehicles page but with this second one I cannot do anything with the car I looted, just the car I took into the event. Anyone else having this issue? |
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*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Mar 10, 2010, 6:36 am |
What happens if the time that a challenge is set is so inconvenient that none of one team can make it?
I noticed that my next match is against foul, he has suggested 6am. But no one on my team can make it until about 12pm... |
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Mar 10, 2010, 7:10 am |
Try and work something out to do it early. Did that with Madhat in my first event |
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*sam* Posted Mar 10, 2010, 8:50 am |
Try to do it early, yes. A combat can be rescheduled anytime up to 10 days in advance of its initially-chosen time. | ||||||||
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d0dger Posted Mar 11, 2010, 8:34 pm |
Just to add my notes, there was definately some funkiness on the return to town for Bastiel and I from our event. We had three cars in the squad and one showed as returned before the other two did. Eventually they all showed up back in town, but not at the same time, and the estimated rturn time on the squad was definately off.
Also, I did get the head pop up, but not the event window with the play button. It was just the head, and then I had to find the event on live events and manually join it. |
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*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Mar 11, 2010, 9:34 pm |
Same thing for me on both points. Looted car took a few hours to show up back in town while car I used was back almost instantly which is normal for a Gates Encounter. I did get "the Head" this time but event does not show up in Upcoming Events and did not get the popup allowing me to join event. Just had to watch Live Events tab and click on the event when it showed up. |
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Lord Foul Posted Mar 14, 2010, 10:59 pm |
I did not see it mentioned in the main post, but I noticed there was no mention of the pvp training bonus that we see in other areas of the game.
Was this intentionally left out due to the other rewards? I ask because I noticed after my completed league pvp event that my characters went up 1 point in their used skill. The one exception was the leader of the event went up 6 points in the leadership skill. This is just an observation and I'm not asking for anything. |