Faction Wars
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FireFly Posted Mar 10, 2010, 1:26 pm |
Right then, this must have been on several peoples minds, but here is my pitch for it.
Occasionally, war will break out between rivaling npc or player (see other suggestion) factions, and players could help fight this war on the side of their choice (Provided you are no worse than unappreciated), helping a faction will greatly increase your rep, and if you win, provide additional benefits. Now, for how the battles themselves will be handled, each factions could have some "Bases" spread around, and it would be a battle for these bases, attacks on them could be done on set times, in these bases, repairs could be made (Only during the war) and attacks and defenses are made via these bases on set server time, kinda like the current system. In the case of player factions, in case you like that suggestion, the factions would have to "Construct" these bases themselves, that is, ship the material and money to a predetermined location. (This might be a little to much, but some like it complicated) The winner is decided by who has the most of these bases, and the greater the advantage, the greater the win and awards... |
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Groove Champion Posted Mar 10, 2010, 2:21 pm |
I think this is an interesting idea.
I'd be curious to hear how players with a limited amount of gameplay time could participate in these wars. The reason I emphasize that particular point is that events with a set playtime probably won't fit in the schedule of players who can’t make "appointments” to play the game at a very specific time due to ongoing real-life obligations. I think such considerations are important because implementing something such as this would dramatically alter Dark Wind's global gameplay (unless I'm misunderstanding?) Another problem I can see is with the reward from participating in such wars. If you must have minimal credibility with the faction you fight for (unappreciated or better), and the reward for fighting is an improvement in your reputation with the faction you ally to, the incentives to participate would be limited. An obvious “fix” would be to have rare loot or camp fame/MR as rewards for participating. It needs work, but it has potential… |
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*goat starer* Posted Mar 10, 2010, 2:24 pm |
Firefly... sometimes i think you want a completely different game rather than the one you are subscribed to 
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FireFly Posted Mar 10, 2010, 2:48 pm |
For rewards, I think it would scale based on your rep with the faction at war, say you are honored even before you join the war, you would be handsomely rewarded for your loyalty, while if your standing was slightly bad, or neutral, it would be more of a mercenary deal, "Fight these guys, get paid" Now, these would be large battles by the way, I'd imagine at least 15 AI per side, thats not counting any players that join, it would be a clash of titans, 40-50 car battles. |
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Groove Champion Posted Mar 10, 2010, 3:39 pm |
You're suggesting a major change in the way factions crop up in play and a large number of events would likely be added if this was implemented. What I'm saying is that I'd either like the events to... a) appear in the event list the way DRs, races and combat do or b) be available to launch at the players’ leisure -like travel encounters … so that a larger number of players can participate without interrupting supper, a date, work, family time to play Dark Wind. Again, this change would have major implications on gameplay so let’s not tie down casual players (read those who can’t play DW anytime, all the time) with pre-scheduled events. --- Despite the merits of the idea, I can’t help but point out that camp participation and camp warfare play (or should play) a role very close to what you’re suggesting. The only difference is camp events don’t tie in to faction – but they could. In other words, why don’t we fix what we already have instead of “patching up” the game with an additional feature that resembles existing elements of the game? Wouldn’t that kill to anarchists with one stone? |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Mar 10, 2010, 3:50 pm |
Isnt this what camp wars was supposed to achieve and hasnt ? | ||||
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FireFly Posted Mar 10, 2010, 4:53 pm |
It kinda is, but changing how camps work will probably upset some people.
Oh, yeah groove, these are timed events, after all, you are "Helping" the faction capture or defend strategic locations, and with that amount of cars, its not somewhere you can just go and soloraid anyway. If it is a set time planned a week in advance, it gives you the best opportunity to join it, you can still fight the enemy on the road like usual thou. Sure it could be integrated into camp... actually, that's another thing I thought of... Camps could battle over Strategic Resources/Bases, if done right, that could certainly spice camp PvP some. |
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Groove Champion Posted Mar 10, 2010, 5:01 pm |
Knowing I won't be able to attend an event a week in advance or a day in advance makes no difference to me. I'd much rather have such a massive shift in gameplay be accessible to players at their leisure... It would be frustrating to be excluded from a major change like this because of working a 9 to 5 job and because of giving priority to supper with the family/gf over a DW appointment... |
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FireFly Posted Mar 10, 2010, 5:07 pm |
But giving players the ability to launch massive assaults at their leisure doesn't really work, considering these battles are supposed to be pretty damned large, besides, the faction is the one attacking, your there for support.
And its no "Change", it would just be an "Addition", it wouldn't change how you normally play in any way, like the town attack events. |
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*Dark Tempest* Posted Mar 10, 2010, 6:24 pm |
I don't quite understand what this adds to the game. I understand wanting to fight large battles that mean something, but that's what mega scouts are for. | ||||
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Mar 10, 2010, 7:33 pm |
I tend to agree, this doesn't seem to have a purpose | ||||
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FireFly Posted Mar 11, 2010, 11:24 am |
With the inclusion of factions, it would make sense of fighting large scale battles, and fighting npc and other players, in favor of a faction your allied with, if you win they will reward you (if you did well) is that not a purpose? Certainly has more purpose that the town attack events, for example. | ||||
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Serephe Posted Mar 11, 2010, 11:33 am |
Seems to be almost exactly what the town attack events are now actually -- and they're almost empty most of the time.
Nobody wants additional ways to pvp more than me, but really, we need to let the faction system settle in... and we need to get people more active in the current pvp systems, before we add anything new. |
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FireFly Posted Mar 11, 2010, 11:37 am |
Thats why when need to put it in a bigger context...
Heck, I'd even say, that some of the town, like GW, could shift it a war broke out between BL/Merchants... In other words, things should be put in a bigger context. To get more people active in PvP, you need incentive to do so, I for one, would take up arms for the mutants without question 
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Mar 11, 2010, 11:38 am |
Agree with sere', the town PVP got some response at first, but they seem to have little take up now,
FF the small things need to work before adding larger equations, we ( as you know ) struggle getting PVP into the game ( in whatever guise Sam attempts ) i can see your ideas only being useful once PVP is widespread ( this off course may never happen ) |
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Groove Champion Posted Mar 11, 2010, 2:49 pm |
Adding flavor to PvP will not be enough to sway the opinion of most PvP-naysayers. This doesn't address the fears they've put forth about permanent losses, the newb/vet schism, etc.
If I can make an analogy, this would be like changing a movie's promotional poster instead of fixing the holes in the movie's plot. |
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FireFly Posted Mar 11, 2010, 2:58 pm |
Adding flavour might not be enough for most, but I think it can swing someone over.
Here is the thing, if I can make reference to a game like total war, in these games, the mechanics are sound, but skirmish battles are generally pretty boring, and its the campaign that is the most fun. The reason it is fun is because you spend time with it, and whenever you fight a battle, its usually something that either swings the general war in your favor, or against you, you feel like you are making "Progress", right now, that is the reason many don't like PvP, losing stuff for no reason, even when winning all they get is a slight training bonus, the "Satisfaction" (Milage may vary) of winning, and probably, unless the win was flawless, a couple of arms lost. That's actually why I generally don't do PvP, or play games online for that matter, because I don't feel like it is worth it, although I do enjoy the occasional fight. Back to the topic, I think fighting for a cause, or for an objective in general, will help this kind of gameplay, I never played the game myself, but that war thing they have going on in warhammer online seemed to have encouraged it, anyone confirm this for me? Well, anyway, I think bringing a sense of a "Campaign" instead of just doing "Skirmishes" against each other, is a thing that will improve PvP, or that kind (Town attack style) fighting in general. |
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Groove Champion Posted Mar 11, 2010, 3:23 pm |
If the favor of war could swing back and forth between factions, your idea rests entirely on a certain balance between the player force in all competing factions. Because the amount of time players can dedicate to DW varies wildly, and especially because we've been conditioned to favor certain factions (I pity those fighting with the anarchists!) the necessary equilibrium would probably never be established.
Flavor is nice, but I have strong doubts it would sway a critical number of non-PvP players in favor of PvP. There's also the striking resemblance between your faction wars idea and town defense events. Towns are aligned to a particular faction, PvP events are already associated to them and players necessarily base themselves in one of those towns... |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Mar 11, 2010, 5:04 pm |
Darkwind is too sociable to have a large PVP base, however it is dressed members simply don't want to attack each other, this is Sams fault for actually making a socially based game. Nobody really wants to attack anybody else ( apart from the same few, we all know who this group are, and they tend to keep within there group ) and the anti social aspect off PVP will be a very hard one to overcome. | ||||
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FireFly Posted Mar 11, 2010, 5:11 pm |
And grograt, I don't know about you, but the most fun I have when playing any game multiplayer, its against my friends. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Mar 11, 2010, 5:20 pm |
Oh its fun agreed, just stating what we all know from reading the forums, people dont want to PVP, they are content in running multi player cooperative scouts | ||||
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Groove Champion Posted Mar 11, 2010, 5:28 pm |
But what exactly do you propose, FF?
Different starting setups for wilderness encounters? What exactly would change? |
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Kornkob The Dude Posted Mar 11, 2010, 6:25 pm |
Whereas I have the most fun when playing with my friends . I enjoyed joining and playing DW first because of the friendly, cooperative community. The helpful nature of the chat room and the willingness for people to work together to help newbies without expectations of anything in return was what made me decide to pony up the case and subscribe. Less anecdotally---- DW already has a steep learning curve, a duality of interface and a generally busy UI which negatively impacts attach rate. The community makes up for that a great deal by mitigating the learning curve and providing the added value of a friendly social atmosphere. Introducing a system that harms that sense of community will reduce Dark Wind's attach rate and subsequently the user base will drop. (Attach rate is the ratio of people who try the demo level product who later subscribe). |
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FireFly Posted Mar 11, 2010, 6:29 pm |
And Kornkob, did you read my initial suggestion, I don't see arena events tearing people apart, and in there you shoot at each other, or deathraces for that matter, why would this be different, and nobody would force you to participate. |
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Groove Champion Posted Mar 11, 2010, 6:33 pm |
When you mention camps, do you mean player-owned camps that currently exist, or a whole new array of camps specifically added for these faction wars?
Never played Planetside. |
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FireFly Posted Mar 11, 2010, 6:36 pm |
I mean, Faction owned camp, In case of Player Faction wars, it would be that the player would have to get those bases together, or "Buy" them.
But here, the factions at war would own the "Camps/Bases", they are basically were you launch the fights and defend, they are "Repair bases", you fight the war over these. Oh, also, why do you think attracting some PvP oriented players would be bad, I mean, that is what many want, more PvP active players, a PvP community. |
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Kornkob The Dude Posted Mar 11, 2010, 6:47 pm |
There is a key difference there: there is no lasting group identity in a deathrace or arena event. |
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Groove Champion Posted Mar 11, 2010, 6:52 pm |
I still maintain this idea is redundant of Town Attack scenarios. I think it would be best to take elements of what your suggest here and build them into the Town Attack events.
Even with a growing community, the towns beyond SS are mostly deserted: I don't think spreading out the player population further by adding new destinations is the best idea. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Mar 11, 2010, 7:01 pm |
We do have the PVP league also at the moment, friendly PVP.
I dont think the idea fits in with the size of the community at present ( or even in the near future ) imo ..... i can see where you are going with this FF but i think the amount of work that would be required to implement something we already have, could go to faction implementation and tweaks, lets make sure we can walk before running |
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FireFly Posted Mar 11, 2010, 7:18 pm |
*Facepalm*
Hey Groove, those destinations would only be aveable during the darned war, its not like you can move entire gangs there, are you even reading my posts? |
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Groove Champion Posted Mar 11, 2010, 7:58 pm |
I ask questions because I don't find the answers in your posts. Perhaps you need to understand we aren't inside your head? And perhaps I could note my own posts with *palmawayfromface* in the rare occasions I'm not completely staggered by your half-baked ideas.
Why should there be seperate destinations other than towns? If the camps can only be used during these events, what would be the benefit? I imagine there would be a measure of production coming from these camps even when faction war events aren't happening? It seems like your suggesting we add a hybrid that borrows elements from towns and elements from player-owned camps... to use them during very specific events only? Unless you're suggesting a massive overhaul of DW's gameplay so that it becomes focused primarily on these faction wars? |
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Kornkob The Dude Posted Mar 11, 2010, 8:07 pm |
Perhaps you need to make a bullet point list of the features of the 'faction war' because your original post does seem to imply that these places actually exist in the world.
Not a description of how you think it should work but a bullet point list of the features that make it up. Then in a separate post explaining how it is a) different than town defence and b) going to generate more interest than town defence would also be helpful. Those seem to be the main points of confusion with your concept. |
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FireFly Posted Mar 11, 2010, 9:04 pm |
Fine then...
- Factions start wars with each other - Players can join the wars on either side, rep based - Wars are fought like town attack events, on set times and dates, players join in on either side, and fight alongside the AI - Players that helped a faction win, based on damage dealt total and such, is given rewards based upon this - The battles are large scale, 15 cars per side is probable, It uses the balancing the Town attack does, but is ensured to have at least 12 - 15 cars per side - The wars are fought on faction owned turf, this would be camps setup in a string between 2 towns, you would fight over these in a "Tug of war" sense, these camps are npc owned, all a player can do here is resupply ammo, refuel and repair, they are only open during the war, to join an attack or defense, your force must be stationed in the correct base. - A war is won when a faction control all or a majority of the bases, whereas the active players mentioned before get their "Rewards", rewards are also better if the faction like you. - Your rep with a faction will also affect how much these resupply will cost you. Comprehensive enough? |
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Groove Champion Posted Mar 11, 2010, 9:11 pm |
Can you see any logistical problems with synchronizing many player schedules to fight at the same time in a campaign of events? Wouldn’t these events be populated by only 1, maybe 2 players on a regular basis?
The idea of controlling a majority of “bases” to win is interesting, and I’ve seen it applied often but I’m still reluctant to agree it fits in to the DW universe (small player base, unpopular PvP model, repair time/cost, long average event length). |
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Kornkob The Dude Posted Mar 11, 2010, 9:17 pm |
Sounds like a logistical nightmare of getting a bunch of independent operators to the right vehicles at the right places at the right time or your 'faction' loses the ground.
Look at WoW with millions of users---their 'grand battles' are conducted by a tiny percentage of their user base. And DW can't sustain interest in regular defend the town events and still hasn't managed to create a significant active PvP community. I think you've got a big idea but the audience is too small for it. (never mind the objections I have to the idea of creating anything 'guild' like in this game the way the 'player owned' factions would be) |
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Serephe Posted Mar 11, 2010, 9:30 pm |
FireFly, what's your solution to the fact that 95% of people are going to be fighting for civs or merchants? | ||||
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Mar 11, 2010, 9:34 pm |
he likes a challenge lol | ||||
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Parapsycho Posted Mar 15, 2010, 3:07 am |
Does anyone remember the NPC Vs NPC wilderness fights that used to spawn? I think these should be brought back with the new faction system, and be modified to let players use their own cars. Now, looting would have to be different, or someone could join, and wait for their side to (hopefully) win and collect some loot. How about instead of loot in this instance, the gang you join for the fight pays you a 'mercenary fee' for damage and kills that you do, plus some increased training and/or faction increases.
Could be a nice compromise to this 'faction war' idea. |
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Marrkos Posted Mar 15, 2010, 3:11 am |
Are you referring to the events that were used to test the ped code when it was first implemented or the Town Defense events? The latter already let players bring their own vehicles, so maybe that's not what you are talking about? |
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Parapsycho Posted Mar 15, 2010, 3:13 am |
I was talking about the NPC vs NPC events that would spawn in the wilderness (in various maps, not just towns), and you could control a car from one of the gangs. Not unlike the gates events we have now, these were just out in the wilderness, and would spawn randomly (or so it seemed).
I believe these were added to the game to let newbies try wilderness combat. I'm not sure when they were removed. I think when non-subs were allowed to scout with others, they were removed. |