*Tango* Posted Jul 12, 2010, 5:25 am	Nevermind. Insert your own post here to help new players. Mine was so bad it was better to delete it. I was trying to help people, not start a long argument. The forum is already full of those. Just because my tactics and methods differ from yours doesn't mean they won't work.
*Dark Tempest* Posted Jul 12, 2010, 6:01 am	At six months of play, I will say that I disagree completely with giving a new player this build. A HMG/CR combo does not disrupt the enemy's movement nearly enough for a new player to beat them properly. Two heavy weapons MUST be front mounted in order to have the "put down" power that newer players usually lack on their vehicles.  If you feel it is necessary to train gunner and large gunnery skill at the same time, go with MMG/HMG, but even that I feel lacks the oomph that makes dual HMG such a staple build. Daul HMG front, and a GG on any other side that you feel like is the SAFEST build that exists for a new player. 4 HMG reloads means you can fire till the cows come home. Your evaluation of tyres and engines is spot on however. The one advantage your build presents is that a CR is the best way to deal with cars that have demo'ed but refuse to stop fighting. HMG and GG are much harder on engines than a CR is, but I feel that new players should be more concerned with surviving than anything else. [EDIT] 229010, my last scout with 2 HMG Apaches. Even with 3 cars its almost that fast, and it just starts to get tough at 4 NPC cars. 229025 2 HMG Apaches vs. 3 cars, only took one hit the entire fight, show's why "pushing" your target is important. [SECOND EDIT]  Take two HMG Apache out together. One car on it's own is almost always a bad idea.
johnny go Posted Jul 12, 2010, 8:03 am	the main problem with early suv scouts is the temptation to go out with just the one car, your big lump NEEDS support, from a sedan or another SUV preferably one with a dropped weapon to mess whit the AI's head. the build looks like a good one to me , thow if i am putting a non-hmg on my apatchi i jenraly go for a rocket launcher
ISHOULDCOCO Posted Jul 12, 2010, 9:37 am	I lost my first four chompers All dual HMG @Tango - write a guide fully support your arguements I did http://www.darkwindwiki.com/index.php?title=Coco's_Guide_to_Starting_Out It is still relevant COCO PS _ TWIN MMG CHOMP MAKES a great support bus
*Wolfsbane* Posted Jul 12, 2010, 6:35 pm	Note for new players reading this: don't use chompers. Just don't. They make OK support cars, but you probably don't drive well enough yet to avoid getting it flipped over either by terrain or by rockets.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jul 12, 2010, 6:41 pm	Agreed, never have used one and no doubt never will. Also watch out for land runners, they have a nice bouncy, flippy effect also. Best way to test a vehicle you are unsure of is in DW:Tactical
FireFly Posted Jul 13, 2010, 12:39 am	Tango, a CR will do a damage of 2 to most target, a HMG 4, A CR has virtually no impact recoil, its almost like hitting your target with lasers in terms of pushing power. What tempest is saying here is correct... but its sad that your neglecting something... the landrunner... Slightly better armor, much much more maneuverability (It can dogfight, an Apache cant, in the term of using front weapons reliably anyway), the single con is that it cant mount 2 heavy guns, and an enclosed 4l. But the way your fighting, you don't need a 4l, making the point moot to begin with. When I started using suv's, I used HMG/RL, and it works, if you get in close, and use the landy's maneuverability, the RL will still be effective in the hands of a rookie. Not to mention, a hit from an RL + HMG, well, there is almost no vehicle smaller than a suv that wont be unaffected by it. Plus, since the RL only has 10 shots, by the time the HMG runs out, the RL will have reloaded, and then when the RL is out again, the HMG will have reloaded, and then it goes.
JS Posted Jul 13, 2010, 1:26 am	Good beginner info. Move to the intermediate stage when you get some money. Apache, 3.2V8, HGG/HMG and a side mount 20 bulk of your choice. I like the HRR, only because it is fun, not because it is terribly effective (Driver will slowly learn LG). 3 guys, 5 reloads for the machine guns which is too many for SS really, but good peace of mind. The V8 is essential in my opinion, gives you options and more power. Many will argue against it but use it in all my SUVs.
*Dark Tempest* Posted Jul 13, 2010, 6:26 am	Firefly, my Apaches will out dogfight your land runners any time. LR lack the acceleration to fight up close properly.
johnny go Posted Jul 13, 2010, 8:16 am	3.2v8's are fab in suvs, but out of the price range of most noob/intermediate players. i manege to get them cheaper prm dameged or wrecked and ship them to a camp to fix up. its a long winded (and risky for a noob) process but the only way to get them on a budget. just got my first 2 land runers so will put my 2 penith in shortly :-)
Ballistix Posted Jul 13, 2010, 10:03 am	Tango, as Coco said post it as a guide on the wiki. It is true not everyones setup will favor every player that is certain. I for one would like to try a lot of different setups before I decide on what I'd like to run with. It's no different to scout cars... eg Voyager vs Phoenix. Don't throw the post away because others don't like it. Leave it for people to read and make up their own mind.
*Dark Tempest* Posted Jul 13, 2010, 2:40 pm	Double that. We all like something different, it's great to make these posts to get everyone talking about what the better SUV builds are. Your original design works, me and FF are just putting in our two cents.
Groove Champion Posted Jul 13, 2010, 2:45 pm	johnny go said: 3.2v8's are fab in suvs, but out of the price range of most noob/intermediate players. i manege to get them cheaper This. We are talking about 'training wheels' here... I still don't have an endless supply of 3.2lv8's and I certainly didn't risk them in any of my builds when I was starting out! What a starting player should be looking for in a build (SUV or otherwise) is easy availability. No new player should depend on hardware he can't readily replace: the sum of all parts should never be more than your total money, or so close to it that you would be in an awkward situation if you lost your vehicles in a bad scout. It's very important to remember that the most valuable commodity in Evan is -by far- your gangers. You should never be reluctant to resign all your vehicles to save your gangers! Your priceless equipment is just a bunch of useless metal if you don't have the gangers to use it properly, and you'll never have good gangers if they get killed trying to save your dual HCR 3.2lv8 A armor Apaches... Get real... [EDIT]: I guess I should propose a build lol This is what I still use to this day with my best gunners because I feel it is very well rounded and extremely easy to replace. 4L Apache, B armor all around (front and sides at max value, reduced rear), dual front MMG, side MGs and tires to match your scouting area (offroad or reinforced). Simple. Deadly. Cheap.
johnny go Posted Jul 13, 2010, 2:49 pm	indeed, i treasure my gangers lives, as a newer player a ganger whit a specialism is worth more than any amount of v8 scrap :-)
FireFly Posted Jul 13, 2010, 5:24 pm	Hey Tempest, It seems like we may have to settle this...
JS Posted Jul 13, 2010, 5:26 pm	Groove Champion said: johnny go said: 3.2v8's are fab in suvs, but out of the price range of most noob/intermediate players. i manege to get them cheaper This. We are talking about 'training wheels' here... I still don't have an endless supply of 3.2lv8's and I certainly didn't risk them in any of my builds when I was starting out! What a starting player should be looking for in a build (SUV or otherwise) is easy availability. No new player should depend on hardware he can't readily replace: the sum of all parts should never be more than your total money, or so close to it that you would be in an awkward situation if you lost your vehicles in a bad scout. It's very important to remember that the most valuable commodity in Evan is -by far- your gangers. You should never be reluctant to resign all your vehicles to save your gangers! Your priceless equipment is just a bunch of useless metal if you don't have the gangers to use it properly, and you'll never have good gangers if they get killed trying to save your dual HCR 3.2lv8 A armor Apaches... Get real... [EDIT]: I guess I should propose a build lol This is what I still use to this day with my best gunners because I feel it is very well rounded and extremely easy to replace. 4L Apache, B armor all around (front and sides at max value, reduced rear), dual front MMG, side MGs and tires to match your scouting area (offroad or reinforced). Simple. Deadly. Cheap. Disagree with you on several points.  I got a V8 first opportunity I could and never looked back. The principle is that good gear begets more good gear (or at least money which you can turn to good gear).  Have I damaged a couple V8s?  Sure, lost a couple HGGs, even had a CC damaged once.  (lost my first Buzzer due to lack of attention to detail, but I won the scout because I did not give up and knew how to use my other vehicles which had V8s and good weapons) However, it was all in the name of getting better, getting more profit,and learning the higher end of the game.  If you want to hang out in SS for 6 months, by all means use that 4L Apache with 2 HMGs all ya want.  You'll have fun for sure.  Game is great with a lot of play styles.  If you want to move to the next level faster, get the good gear.  Simple as that. I don't plan to replace much gear, I plan to keep it, and get more.  Don't gamble with scared money friends.  Planning to fail is not good business. I will agree with Groove on one point, at least.  Forgoe the A armor in SS, the advantage is not worth the cost.  I'm not sold on it in the south either, at least not for my play style.  those with more A armor experience may have more pertinent data.
Crazy AL Posted Jul 13, 2010, 6:08 pm	JS said: Good beginner info.  Move to the intermediate stage when you get some money.  Apache, 3.2V8, HGG/HMG and a side mount 20 bulk of your choice.  I like the HRR, only because it is fun, not because it is terribly effective (Driver will slowly learn LG).  3 guys, 5 reloads for the machine guns which is too many for SS really, but good peace of mind.  The V8 is essential in my opinion, gives you options and more power.  Many will argue against it but use it in all my SUVs. I apologize if this is off the subject too much, but if I am not mistaken, HRR uses Gunner and not Large Guns skill. As for beginning builds, my recommendation is speed. I remember a few beginning builds of mine and most of them that went sour had no acceleration. Speed makes you harder to hit, manuevers your guns into LoF or you out of enemy LoF more quickly,  allows you to run until the odds or enemy position is more advantageous for you and gets your vehicles out of a bad situation if things go south. Chompers, Landys and to some degree Apaches are inherently slow. I don't use a chomper unless I have an exposed engine and/or rear facing weapons. Landys I don't use unless I have a 3.2L V8. Apache are ok with 4L, but again the V8 is better. Here's a few Chomper builds: 3.2L, Max rear armor, Rear firing RL/HMG or RL/MMG or RL/HGG. They still bounce a bit, but its manageable. Landy Build: 3.2L V8, 4xGG: 2 front, one on each side. Max front, good sides, less rear armor. Apache: 4L/3.2L V8 All front weapon configs unless noted: HMG/RL, HMG/CR, CR/CR front RL rear, ATG/HFT, RR/HFT, RL/RL.
Groove Champion Posted Jul 13, 2010, 6:30 pm	JS said: [If you want to hang out in SS for 6 months, by all means use that 4L Apache with 2 HMGs all ya want. Ah... I didn't say anything about hanging around SS. The proposed design works even better down south because the smaller MMGs (not HMGs) afford many more reloads, which are vital for dealing with the return encounters so common to southern towns. The smaller weapons also mean more speed with a common 4L, making the 3.2lv8 superfluous (though still appealing). JS said: Planning to fail is not good business. Depending on common gear instead of rarer gear doesn't mean you have a pessimistic outlook on your chances of success... It's a valid playstyle, certainly not to be disregarded because it's less flashy. I'll take on your fancy CC Apaches any day. And win. Also, using common gear has absolutely no incidence on the likelihood of encountering rare gear: the Apaches you are so quick to dismiss draw Buzzers and other rare chassis in GW on a regular basis.
johnny go Posted Jul 13, 2010, 7:11 pm	well, i just had my 3 month anniversary and have just bout got to the point where i can start buying things like an odd CC, 3.2v8 or ATG. think the turning point from struggling penniless noob to intermediate and thinking about branching in to elms relide on 2 things. the first was FINALY geting a core of gangers who could hold there own soloing in any thing but an Pho. the second was a windfall cash ingecton that i invested in 2 apatchis, giving my gangers the tools to start SERIOUSLY scouting for cash. the apatchis wher an investment that has paid for its self agana and agane, the 3.2v8's under the hood and the ATG i am playing whith are nice to have but the returns on them as an investment pale in to insignificance compared to the vehicles them selves.
*Wolfsbane* Posted Jul 15, 2010, 1:35 pm	Crazy AL said: I apologize if this is off the subject too much, but if I am not mistaken, HRR uses Gunner and not Large Guns skill. You are mistaken   HR and HR use large guns.  I suspect this is the reason many people seem to  think their accuracy is a lot worse than it really is. johnny - for me, getting the skill (player more than ganger, but both help) to solo effectively was where my gang really started to take off.  I still solo SS most days in the same cars I started with.  Originally they were a pair of landies with front HGG/RL and rear gat, but there have been a few changes since then.
JS Posted Jul 15, 2010, 1:44 pm	Groove Champion said: JS said: [If you want to hang out in SS for 6 months, by all means use that 4L Apache with 2 HMGs all ya want. Ah... I didn't say anything about hanging around SS. The proposed design works even better down south because the smaller MMGs (not HMGs) afford many more reloads, which are vital for dealing with the return encounters so common to southern towns. The smaller weapons also mean more speed with a common 4L, making the 3.2lv8 superfluous (though still appealing). JS said: Planning to fail is not good business. Depending on common gear instead of rarer gear doesn't mean you have a pessimistic outlook on your chances of success... It's a valid playstyle, certainly not to be disregarded because it's less flashy. I'll take on your fancy CC Apaches any day. And win. Also, using common gear has absolutely no incidence on the likelihood of encountering rare gear: the Apaches you are so quick to dismiss draw Buzzers and other rare chassis in GW on a regular basis. Good points Groove.  Never said anything about the lower gear not drawing out good pirate equipment.  My point was it is easier to win with good gear.  I personally would not like to face the odds and equipment down south with MMGs.  But to each their own.  I'm sure it can be done, but I prefer the good stuff which in my opinion protects your gangers better, whcih is the bottom line for me.
Ballistix Posted Jul 15, 2010, 2:24 pm	I'd just like to say that I'd like Tango to repost his vehicle set up from the first post so that in future us noobs can read through this post and see all the builds that we can use as options later on as we gain experience.
*Tango* Posted Jul 15, 2010, 7:28 pm	Ballistix said: I'd just like to say that I'd like Tango to repost his vehicle set up from the first post so that in future us noobs can read through this post and see all the builds that we can use as options later on as we gain experience. Driver and 2 gunners 1 HMG and 2 CR Reloads
Crazy AL Posted Jul 15, 2010, 8:54 pm	*Wolfsbane* said: Crazy AL said: I apologize if this is off the subject too much, but if I am not mistaken, HRR uses Gunner and not Large Guns skill. You are mistaken   HR and HR use large guns.  I suspect this is the reason many people seem to  think their accuracy is a lot worse than it really is. johnny - for me, getting the skill (player more than ganger, but both help) to solo effectively was where my gang really started to take off.  I still solo SS most days in the same cars I started with.  Originally they were a pair of landies with front HGG/RL and rear gat, but there have been a few changes since then. Thank you Wolf! Considering that a forum post informed me as the the HR skill being gunner, it's only reasonable that I get the correction from the forum as well.