AI Pathfinding improvements
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*sam* Posted Jun 10, 2011, 9:34 am |
Just to let you know I have patched in the 'pheromones' based pathfinding improvements for the NPCs in combats. They should be substantially better at finding their way around, hopefully.. please let me know how you find it..
(this was a server-side-only patch, btw) .. geeky academic research paper to follow next week 
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*jimmylogan* Posted Jun 10, 2011, 12:07 pm |
My favorite part of this post. Yep - I'm a geek too. 
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Stingray191 Posted Jun 10, 2011, 12:20 pm |
I'm predicting Blood on the Sands for unsuspecting PCs. | ||||||
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johnny go Posted Jun 10, 2011, 12:21 pm |
things are going to grt nasty
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jun 10, 2011, 12:34 pm |
NOW PEOPLE WILL UNDERSTAND MY ' DRIVING OF CLIFFS' STRATEGY
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*Tango* Posted Jun 10, 2011, 1:08 pm |
first impression after two travels:
AI is better at navigating roads, only one car from a pack of 4 got stuck in the water at Forever Yellow Skies, but the "Dog Chasing Its Tail" problem is worse. See S361325 and S361329 |
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*Rev. V* Posted Jun 10, 2011, 1:31 pm |
"NOW PEOPLE WILL UNDERSTAND MY ' DRIVING OF CLIFFS' STRATEGY"
Grog, YOU don't even understand that..... 
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Jeelz Posted Jun 10, 2011, 2:54 pm |
Very limited testing by me so far, but the trader cars that should be running seem to be dagging around with escorts longer than they should, making for easier capture. Might just be a coincidence. (NF and SS gates) | ||||||
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GrayRoad Posted Jun 11, 2011, 2:11 am |
I'm seeing the same thing with the trader cars in SS. They have seemed to be easier to catch now.
Travels have become harder though. I had trouble shaking pirates in Once Upon a Town twice tonight. You can still get them stuck on the buildings, but it is tougher. |
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Checkers Posted Jun 11, 2011, 2:15 am |
All my travels thus far have been tougher. | ||||||
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Juris Posted Jun 11, 2011, 2:31 am |
Routine travel, Road to SS
S361536 Stayed on road and ran out to maximum to test the AI. AI did pretty well following road behind me. If I hadn't been in a fast mission runner it might've been trouble. |
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Stingray191 Posted Jun 11, 2011, 5:21 am |
Just running a quick Flash along Scattered Grounds.
Half the AI followed the road quite well while half got lost almost immediately. S361573 |
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80s Posted Jun 11, 2011, 11:53 am |
The pathing seems 50-80% better for most of the NPC rigs in GW as of late. Similar to how v8 rigs used to be.
I've always found NPC vehicles with v8s to be less inclined to drive off the cliffs and better at negotiating round the sides. 361600 Will be very interesting to see how the v8s roll around now! Just finished a 2nd Monger hunt where the runners turned back towards the fight to demo without much encouragement. The 1st hunt saw the runners behave a lot like the fighters till they started to get beat up, then they hoofed it as per normal. |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Jun 11, 2011, 7:03 pm |
Can confirm the reports that the new pathfinding is messing with trader cargo type vehicles, every time they act just like standard AI cars rather than running. | ||||||
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JS Posted Jun 11, 2011, 7:14 pm |
I had some run, and then turn back around and come back. I had chased so I may have helped them decide that, but one was quite far away and it came a long way back to go right at me. |
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*Bastille* Posted Jun 12, 2011, 5:30 am |
funny watching a trader pho running at you and then quickly trying to turn its bum in your direction. | ||||||
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JS Posted Jun 12, 2011, 11:26 am |
One thing is for sure. It's an overall improvement. They avoid going into holes and the spots we all tried to hang them up on. Good stuff. | ||||||
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*sam* Posted Jun 12, 2011, 11:46 am |
I'll have a look into the trader behaviour - it's a strange one though, since their decision making hasn't been changed, this was only a change to the low-level pathfinding.. i.e. they're still choosing the same places to drive to as before, but are tending to favour those routes that players use now, rather than simply the shortest routes | ||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Jun 13, 2011, 7:18 pm |
nine and i had a car turn round yesterday and run away for ages... it was like it was stuck on the wrong trail | ||||||
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Jeelz Posted Jun 14, 2011, 12:15 am |
I've done a few more small scouts with traders around SS and for me at least, it is significantly easier to get the trade cars. | ||||||
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Jun 14, 2011, 12:30 am |
Was on an escort run with Johnny Dread and the postal trucks we were escorting showed the same behavior. Not much running, a whole lot of getting shot up.
Makes escort missions a bit more interesting.... |
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*sam* Posted Jun 14, 2011, 9:46 am |
I'm just putting thru a (server-side) patch to change the trader car decision-making a bit.. let me know if you see an improvement. | ||||||
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JuaN VaLDeZ Posted Jun 14, 2011, 9:57 am |
Try this for a new travel strategy to work with the pheromones... Drive around a hill and when they are on the other side, veer off and vector straight out. They will continue to go around even though it would be easier for them to just turn and chase.
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putriddead Posted Jun 14, 2011, 10:13 am |
Ive been hunting traders almost exclusively the last few days. They seem to circle around in the back for the most part. Sometimes the cargo vehicles will come back into the fray. I also a weird experience with a chomper and lorry where they both charged me and I ended up blowing the lorry to hell because it kept getting in my LoF on the chomp. Something is definitely amiss. Aside from that one though i kind of like it better, its more realistic that the cargo vehicles wouldnt just speed off to leave their comrades to die. I mean... they do have guns... | ||||||
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*sam* Posted Jun 14, 2011, 10:25 am |
hmm, maybe this is the simpler solution then.. just make them all behave the same
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jun 14, 2011, 10:29 am |
there goes free lorries lol
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*goat starer* Posted Jun 14, 2011, 2:54 pm |
i agree... but stick their guns on the front |
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Jun 14, 2011, 3:35 pm |
Would definitely complicate the traditional strategy of "red the escorts and stare down the cargo vehicles till they quit." Gotta weigh the fact that they're actively assaulting you when deciding how important that undamaged cargo is.... |
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*Bastille* Posted Jun 14, 2011, 3:35 pm |
make escorts with rear weapons and make em all run together. | ||||||
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*Tinker* Posted Jun 14, 2011, 4:21 pm |
thumbs up |
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Juris Posted Jun 14, 2011, 6:52 pm |
Attack of the Trader Vans! I had this happen to me on a scout before the pathfinding update, so I think it's something else. Had a trader van go berserk and start dogfighting with me. Finally had to kill it. I thought it was cool. This shouldn't happen every scout, but every once in awhile is a good idea - the enemy shouldn't be 100% predictable.
This would be even better if Trader Lorries came equipped with roll cages, mounted HSSs and RR on the front, and tried to ram (again, once in awhile) .
It is kinda stupid that trader vehicles always ditch their escorts and try to outrun chaser vehicles they cannot possibly hope to beat. On a different matter, I'd like to see the occasional 'Q-ship' trader convoy - a convoy that looks like a trader squad from a distance but get up close and that Trader Lorry turns out to be a Gunship, and that Trader Van a Texas Strongarm... You think the Ironmongers would learn... |
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JuaN VaLDeZ Posted Jun 16, 2011, 6:57 am |
Before I had said that running around a hill was a easy way to lose the AI with the new pathing. I demonstrated that using one of that channels on lonesome highway. If this new pathing is to supposed to make the AI better at catching us, this is a good example of how a human can "out-think" a AI, while they continue in the opposite direction.
S362963 Camera 1 is bookmarked for a grand viewpoint... |
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*sam* Posted Jun 16, 2011, 9:48 am |
It's not related to the new pathfinding, Juan, it's their higher-level decision making that makes them decide *where* to go. The pathfinding only finds them a route after they have decided where. | ||||||
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*Bastille* Posted Jun 16, 2011, 12:26 pm |
this stuff sounds cool |
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*goat starer* Posted Jun 17, 2011, 1:44 pm |
q ship traders were suggested before.... a cracking idea... especially if it said trader lorry above the enemy vehicle right up to the moment it started firing its car cannon. |
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*Bastille* Posted Jun 17, 2011, 3:06 pm |
Is there someway the trader vehicle can change name during the event? starts off saying trader lorry, then switches to gunship when discovered.
Ai through Oil slick has definitely improved 
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*sam* Posted Jun 17, 2011, 3:37 pm |
semi-randomised NPC builds were also suggested before.. would this be of general interest? so you weren't quite sure what weaps/armour they had |
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*Bastille* Posted Jun 17, 2011, 3:45 pm |
yep | ||||||
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Heywood Jablome Posted Jun 17, 2011, 7:38 pm |
+1
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Snidely Carmichael Posted Jun 17, 2011, 7:44 pm |
Absolutely! |
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FireFly Posted Jun 17, 2011, 7:47 pm |
It almost feels like cheating when we can go "Oh, it's a masher no worry" and then look at the second one and go "Oh ####, bomber, all aim for that one!" On the other hand, some way to identify rares is also nice, rather tell a war-dance and a cutlass apart before I blow em up
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JS Posted Jun 17, 2011, 7:59 pm |
Would be cool, maybe have some of both? It's cool to gain "intel" as you play on what is what, and how to handle it. completely random all the time would negate some of that. | ||||||
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jun 17, 2011, 8:01 pm |
new scout skill ' spotter ' gives some indication of weapons mounted ? | ||||||
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Stingray191 Posted Jun 18, 2011, 12:01 am |
Definately would add some spice to a scout.
As weapons specific to a car are fired or close range is reached - under 50m? - the full car name can be revealed. |
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FireFly Posted Jun 18, 2011, 12:10 am |
Firefly can see the fog of war slowly creeping into darkwind... | ||||||
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Heywood Jablome Posted Jun 18, 2011, 12:32 am |
The better your scout skill, the further away you can see what they are/have... |
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Juris Posted Jun 18, 2011, 1:25 am |
If we do this +1 A great scout should know everything the enemy has, a bad scout would be clueless until they open fire. This would make scouting much more important. |
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*Bastille* Posted Jun 18, 2011, 3:47 am |
new scout skill, I like that.
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*Ninesticks* Posted Jun 18, 2011, 6:21 am |
Inaccurate or more generalised pre-event opposition report would be a nice step forward :-) | ||||||
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*Bastille* Posted Jun 18, 2011, 7:05 am |
some sedans, some trucks, that sort of thing?
You see alrge bloom of dust, could be 10+ vehicles i there You see a small bloom of dust, less cars You see a bloom of dust with a second one to the side, chance of ambush A scattering of dust, is that the wind? chance of ambush |
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*sam* Posted Jun 18, 2011, 11:49 pm |
How geeky and academic do you want it?
Pdf here.. |
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Lord Foul Posted Jun 19, 2011, 12:35 am |
While on paper this may sound like a good idea, when applied could be abused if applied to traders. If you’ve hunted traders for a while, you know what I’m talking about. Plus you would not see this north of BL since farming traders is the normal pastime up north and I doubt you’d see southern traders or texans popping up on low famed traders. I’ve only seen 2 southern traders in my time on a high famed trader gang. What would be better is for Sam to apply the second wave code to the traders as well. But instead of having the second wave spawn near you, have the second wave spawn near the escaping traders to bock/intercept the chasers. Players like to send one car to chase traders and you’d think traders would learn players do this a lot so the traders would counter with a hidden “wave” of protectors to deal with any chasers. |
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Snidely Carmichael Posted Jun 19, 2011, 3:48 am |
Thanks for sharing this with us, Sam. You may be amused and/or satisfied to learn that I am now thoroughly embarrassed by my previous "contribution" to the pathfinding discussion. |
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*viKKing* Posted Jun 19, 2011, 8:49 pm |
I would also enjoy to have the possibility to read value from foes armors related to scout level. I think such pieces of info are killing a bit the game and don't like it, but would be very favorable to get a "roleplay" reason to show them. |
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*Ayjona* Posted Jun 21, 2011, 1:45 am |
Agreed! Suggested this a few years back, and would enjoy it as much today as back then 
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*sam* Posted Jun 21, 2011, 9:08 am |
I did remove the ability to see enemy armour values altogether, a couple of years ago, and there was massive outcry so I had to reinstate it | ||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Jun 21, 2011, 9:12 am |
who did the massive outcry come from? I liked it |
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FireFly Posted Jun 21, 2011, 9:54 am |
Intact Damaged Heavily Damaged Breached It makes a lot of sense to, I cant visually gauge how much more damage a car might take to the number of shots, but I certainly could see, even from a bit away if the armor is undamaged, riddled a bit with bullets, heavily near blown to bits or destroyed altogether
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jun 21, 2011, 10:07 am |
This would need to be an ' Option' or yet again you are making this harder for newer players | ||||||
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FireFly Posted Jun 21, 2011, 10:12 am |
It wouldn't really change anything aside from the "Aim for the side with 5 points left" to "Aim for the heavily damaged side". If your point was that people have to be able to calculate Ammo vs Enemy armor then well, teach people to bring more ammo instead of trying to win on the last bullet. It would actually hurt vets who play with tankguns more, as an example when I'm trying to "Deter" a cutlass by tapping it once with a tank-gun I have to know that it has 15+ armor left to withstand the shell, under this new system it would simply say damaged leaving me to not shooting or maybe blowing that laser up. Also, nice paper sam, was interesting to read
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jun 21, 2011, 10:19 am |
your playing the' change the game because i have beat it ' game again, i dont agree that a change for the sake of it without an option is always a good idea.
Bored heavy playing vets can ruin a game for average / new players when they can only attempt to make the game harder to please them, ignoring what is actually best for the game as a whole. and no ... i never bother checking armor, so this is not why i am saying this. there is no reason why an ' off / on ' option couldnt be included |
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FireFly Posted Jun 21, 2011, 10:37 am |
And there is a reason not to have that option, first, if to tie it to a spec then it nullifies the reason for that spec even existing, secondly there is no point in trying to make a game more sensible or immersive if you give players the option to break it at the click of a button, and thirdly... Give players the option to gain an advantage and almost all will take it, take me as an example, you give me the option to display the exact armor levels and I will tag that box until the day I stop playing, I want the advantage. But I also want that advantage removed from me, I dont really want it to be there but like most people I will still use it because it makes it easier for me. That's why you cant give players options over everything, just like if you gave players a "Click here to get a free buzzer", most would say they enjoy the challenge of looting it/getting money for it yourself, almost everyone would click it, including me even thou I have 50 already, just cause it's a free buzzer. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jun 21, 2011, 10:42 am |
your right .. i am wrong ..now i am bored. | ||||||
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*sam* Posted Jun 21, 2011, 11:37 am |
Hidden armour numbers could potentially be added as part of an optional 'Darkwind Hardcore' mode that I have been discussing with goatstarer. He is writing up a list of stuff such as removing access to money - the way I see it, you'd gain training bonuses or something as payment for switching to 'hardcore' mode. | ||||||
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jun 21, 2011, 11:46 am |
Sounds interesting | ||||||
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*viKKing* Posted Jun 21, 2011, 12:12 pm |
And what if it was based on distance instead? At very close range (10/15 m), it shows points, in the distance only partial damage states? Edit: a good reason to come closer from your enemies. |
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Ragnak Posted Jun 21, 2011, 6:11 pm |
Whether armor was hidden or not wouldnt effect my gameplay. A person engages at whatever range they feel is most effective and stick with it till the enemy is dealt with.
Seems like the effort to implement the feature might be better used for other things IMO. |
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Juris Posted Jun 21, 2011, 6:31 pm |
Hardcore mode - increased difficulty in exchange for training bonuses is a fun idea.
Biggest problem - it would split the player base and create two games/economies. As pointed out, there would have to be 'normal' and 'hardcore' camps. I imagine Hardcore camps wouldn't have to pay $ for re-tooling etc. Seems almost insurmountable to me unless we get 100 new players
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*sam* Posted Jun 21, 2011, 6:33 pm |
To make it work, the 'normal' and 'hardcore' players need to operate in the same world. Should be possible with planning.. |
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*viKKing* Posted Jun 21, 2011, 8:36 pm |
I'm not sure splitting the community is a good solution. I've been suggesting changes like Fog of War into the game for a so long time... Once again (this has been debated so many times, in private or public forums, even emails), most concerns are about casual gamers. Making the game harder might capture a broader audience. I've certainly be annoying Sam too many times with this. Hardcore gamers are, well, hardcore gamers. They will continue playing as long as there is a challenge to overcome.
Casual gamers won't. They are are not focusing on a single game, especially when this game requires long time period to achieve an event. Megascouts are not casual players friendly, for sure. What turns a casual gamer into a Darkwind harcore gamer? beer, friends and girls... hmm, yes it's true but also a self motivation in achieving gang development. So how to help them achieving this if they don't play regularly? Since today, about 20:15 Server Time (that's a really fresh idea), I think the character development system from DW should be modified for casual players. Such players should be offered development points to help them raising individually skills of their gangers and gain skills. The principle of reward would be based on following facts: - player is a paying susbcriber - player is not on vacation mode (though instead of cancelling what's coming next it could split it by a half) - development points are earned based on difference in days between played events. Something somewhat like, 1 point earned for each day without participating into an event. - each point can be used to rise a given character one point in a given skill. - points are not limited in time or amount and are not replacing regular events and training skill changes. - some events might even offer to gain a specialism bonus (this is quite artificial, but why not after all?) and finally for god sake, let's get rid of money! Edit: splitting paragraphs |
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Dundar Posted Jun 22, 2011, 5:56 pm |
How utterly absurd to think you can get rid of money in this game. There HAS to be an econmic mechanism to balance the supply and demand scale in this game. Without money how can you keep any item in stock? How do you pay for it? Will it be free? How do you compensate a players labor and material for purchases? How do you pay for armor repairs or other services from the NPCs in the game?
Money in Dark Wind is not some failed Keynesian zero sum game theory. People create their own wealth and by one person working hard and earning more they in no way take any of that wealth from another player (well, unless they steal it, but that is not wealth creation). There is no "money problem" in Darkwind and this sort of neo-marxist push to eliminate money so that we can create some utopian world were everyone is equal has about as much success as the Soviet five year plans did. And it seriously comes as no surprise that the communist loving Goatstarer is feverishly writing some treatise on how an economy can fucntion without money. Probably thumbing through his well worn copy of "Das Kapital" as he writes this joke of a paper. I suggest Sam you read Friedrich Hayek, Luwig Von Mises, or Milton Freedman if you want to improve the economic model in your game and put to good use anything Goat writes as bird cage liner. |
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JS Posted Jun 22, 2011, 6:22 pm |
If I was drinking milk, I would have just shot it out my nose in a fit of hysterical laughter. Well said. However, for me I could care less if some want to make a Marxian hell on.. wait, utopia and play cashless games in it. Good on em. Just don't drag the rest of us into your dreams, because they look like nightmares to me. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jun 22, 2011, 6:26 pm |
This will only ever be an ' option ' imo
One that many we want to try, but also have the ability to keep original gang / play style going. maybe an option to split part of gang into a hard core section if wished. |
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Juris Posted Jun 22, 2011, 6:34 pm |
Politics has nothing to do with it. All you've done is started a flame war by making personal attacks.
Some people just want to play in a 'grittier' world. Goat is putting his ideas together because he likes the game - good for him. Lets see his ideas before judging them. Personally, I'm more of a 'core CW' fan - I think there SHOULD be an economy and the game-world should evolve (like access to new towns and higher technology) as 'society' recovers from the Burn, but some people are more old school. That's cool - its really up to Sam. |
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JS Posted Jun 22, 2011, 6:56 pm |
You're right, it's likely to start a flame war, and I didn't help with my post. If goat takes the high road that would be a point in his favor. However, it IS about politics. If you have read the forums inteh last year and paid attention, it is most certianly about politics. To deny that is to either be in denial or not paying attention. We should be taken to task for the possible start of a flame war. Valid point. But the underlying theme is very certainly about politics. |
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d0dger Posted Jun 22, 2011, 7:40 pm |
I think this is pretty well said and much in the vein of thought I was just trying to put together. Though I wouldn't even term it core CW, but just base it on the actual backstory created for DW so far. From an RP asepct, the story of Evan as it stands now has already progressed past the type of post apocolyptia being driven towards here. We have farms, arenas, organized death sports, established trade routes and professional traders, factories, working oil rigs, etc... From a game mechanics aspect there's a lot of work to be done to implement this. So far Goat's biggest complaint is having to use $ to repair his vehicles, but that can already be done at camps without using $. Another thing to consider is town events, how are event prizes and entry fees handled for 'hardcore' players? I really think it would be better to use the extremely limited programming capacity available to make improvements and additions that improve the game for everyone, that are in line with the established history and game world, not further optional divides that will make future additions and upgrades more complicated as well. |
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*goat starer* Posted Jun 22, 2011, 9:08 pm |
that would be the entirely discredited milton friedman whose economic fallacies and their bauble attractiveness to right wing politicians created the unregulated banking systems that just brought the world economy to its knees. perhaps you should go and do an economics degree... but i doubt you will.. it would be painful for you ------------------------------------------------------------------- what was this thread actually about and who exactly is dndar? one of the more bizarre derails in recent history... i dont know whether to laugh, cry or applaud! |
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JS Posted Jun 22, 2011, 9:56 pm |
Dundar, congrats you have been added to a long list of people Goat-Statist tries to dismiss by saying "who is xxx". |
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*goat starer* Posted Jun 22, 2011, 11:06 pm |
who are you? |
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JS Posted Jun 22, 2011, 11:10 pm |
Levity! |
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*goat starer* Posted Jun 22, 2011, 11:12 pm |
nope.. don't recognise you... never met anyone called levity or heard of any of their deeds. I thought you might be JS but i have him on ignore. |
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*Bastille* Posted Jun 23, 2011, 3:24 am |
Not imo at all, well, besides the baseless slander. Thats typical politics alright. Its only about immersion. No ones political povs need to be focused on here at all. You guys do realise we play as socialist yes? Play, the idea? Can you.. fathom..? Is there... any.. is there.... a brain....? No, I guess not. For what its worth, theres some damn evil #### being displayed by the only regional hegamon in the world for the last 50 years. So those over there... watch your words.. really. don't be hypocrits, its ugly, and makes you look really dumb. I think Juris put it quite well. The game has progressed past the stage of PA Goat is trying to achieve. I do like CW core, but I also loved C&C. Many of the things that currently happen in this world, couldn't. Its impossible, there is not the resources. Its like running the world on credit, its a fallacy, in the end the #### has to come from somewhere. We play it anyway, but Id like to see it closer to something real. Immersion is 9/10 of why I play games. (this one happens to have awesome game play too, damn rare that) Im not here to beat a system, but play with it. I like what goat is trying to achieve, and sam has stated that choices are available. So comment on improvement if you like, or just shut up and go back to the sandbox. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Now, we were talking about the scout skill and armour not being seen. ahh, the value of not being seen. I like it. I do agree with FF in given option one will take it. I think less of that is more. But if choices are to be there so more enjoy... so be it. |
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JS Posted Jun 23, 2011, 3:39 am |
Do you understand hypocrisy Bast? Did you really just take me to task, claiming that you "play" Socialist, and then throw out a politically charged insult about the "only regional hegemon"? Which is of course a reference to real world politics, and the country I live in. It's a rehetorical question, because you did.
I have never told you to shut up, not once, yet you feel compelled to tell me that. Interesting. It is very illuminating when you poke at a statists belief system. Peruse the forums, look at the posts of those who disagree with the statists, and then look at the proponents of statism. Compare and contrast the language and the rhetoric. Very interesting indeed. |
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*Bastille* Posted Jun 23, 2011, 3:40 am |
Glad you liked it, hope you understand it
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*sam* Posted Jun 23, 2011, 9:51 am |
Heh. I think you may have missed the point (or maybe I did).. I don't think this has very much to do with removing money for an ideological reason, it's simply to make the game more challenging for those who want it. It's got very little to do with improving or removing the economy, it's got much more to do with letting players scrabble for spare parts and patch up their cars with half-working guns rather than sit on a huge pile of cash and gleaming hardware. And just to re-iterate: I agree, we can't split the community as it's too small. The way I'd do this is to have players all playing together in the same world, but with some of them voluntarily shut out of all monetary transactions, for which they would gain training. (This would mean they couldn't buy stuff from other players at all, or even swap stuff for free, as this would make it too easy to exploit). |
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*goat starer* Posted Jun 23, 2011, 11:43 am |
I believe this to be a fallacy. Perhaps you would like to tell us how many subscribers you have had during the past 3 years in total? If some of those had remained because: a) the game lived up to its billing as a tough post apocalyptic world or b) the game had an adequate difficulty curve to maintain interest we would have a larger player base. As far as I can see we have no strategy to attract new players AND every time a strategy is suggested to retain existing ones it is shouted down by people who cant be arsed to even consider it, who make up complete nonsense to scare people into supporting them. what in gods name is this crap about the player base being too small in any case.. most of us scout with, race with, trade with just a few other people. There are no massive multiplayer events to speak of (and a substantial proportion of the ones there are have historically been organised by me). I watered down my original suggestion to remove cash (which seems pretty popular from my IM box) to allow parallel playing of 2 difficulty settings and it still gets shouted down. I dont give a flying **** at a rolling doughnut what Dundar thinks.. because like most people I have never played with him/her/it.... I can say the same about almost everyone else here.... i have no intention of playing with them.. they only play with a few people themselves........ which shows this 'splitting the player base' argument up as the complete canard that it is. |
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GrowlingBadger Posted Jun 23, 2011, 12:11 pm |
I know it's 'ard goat but what is duck in french? | ||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Jun 23, 2011, 12:30 pm |
éviter? se défiler plonger dans l'eau faire boire la tasse s'échapper |
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Fealty Lost Posted Jun 23, 2011, 1:28 pm |
What Goat's yelling about are things I suggested several years ago and he was one of the biggest yellers, telling me in no uncertain terms to shut the hell up.
Now he's espousing what I'd proposed way back when. But he's right. 'Money' would be something that doesn't exist in a post-apoc' society. Right after said event, on a shattered planet, pockets of people would be seperated by the same distances as before, but not the same world. Travel would be something you didn't even consider. As humans, we'd hunker down where we were and after we'd finished killing off as many of each other as our reptilian brains needed to make us feel secure; rebuilding would begin. Paper money would be worthless. There's nothing backing it up (just like NOW). Each fragmented portion of society would decide through practicality what would be the new medium of exchange. Most probably, as Goat' says, it would be exchange of goods and services. And what would be valuable in Somerset, might not mean diddly to the people in the Truck Stops, some 100+ miles away, and even less in Sarsfield, where the obvious means of exchange is oil. I ranted way back then that not only would skill and machinery not be available to fix things, but materials would be at a shortage. Nobody's making metal any more. That means scavenging. And scavenged parts don't fix Car Cannons to 100% after every scout. I suggested CONSTANT decay/lowered reliability for equipment and vehicles. Again, Goat' was one of the detractors. 
Simply put, the guy that rolls into the local shop and offers the owner 15% of the total cost of materials to fix up his jalopies OVER the actual 'cost' of repair gets first billing in line, gets his best mechs', best 'repair parts.' A shop can only handle so much. The shops in towns should only be able to repair "X" amount of mech' points (already exists in the world) per day/week/whatever. So, if I were still playing and rolled into town with 15 banged up rides of my own and another 15 salvage cars, I'd tie up the local shop and maybe even prevent those wussy 1-2 car scouters from even getting repaired, because I could offer the shop owner salvage/parts beyond what it cost to fix my stuff up. So, each town should have its medium of exchange. Universal "money" is nonsense, Goat's right about that. Without a central gov't and whatever to back the currency, it can't exist. So it should be salvage of all sorts that's most important. Or food. Or water. Or oil. Things that would matter in a post-apoc' society. End of problem. The ultimate money-sink...because money wouldn't exist anymore. Give players their own 'shops.' Stop manufacturing. There are no factories still operating that could produce the raw materials. You have any idea how many people it takes to run a steel mill? Your gang would be able to do nothing else...and you still couldn't make it work with 50 guys. Camps should lose the ability to manufacture anything. They should get bonusses to repair, assuming that they exist because someone found a car dealership sunk under the sand with all the equipment semi-intact...so they'd get a bonus to make repairs 'stick.' Goat's right. Glad he finally jumped on the bandwagon that passed through DW 2.5 years ago. Death to hoarders! (throws tarp over his 500+ vehicles) And technology isn't ever going to recover. There's no BASE to make it do so: no colleges, no learning, no books, no manufacturing base. If anything, society should devolve even further, in general. There might be AN exception somewhere in Sam's world. One. Maybe. Now, implement everything else I've ever suggested and the game is saved. Ego much? Hellz ya! And there shouldn't be a 'bonus' of any kind for anything. The whole game should be hardcore. Of course, no matter what happens, I'll still be playing Apokalypsos. GL gents. |
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JS Posted Jun 23, 2011, 1:48 pm |
There is no reason that the "money" we use can't be RP'd as "goods and services" or gold, or silver, or coke bottle caps, or snow globes backed by brokers of real goods. Or any of a milion other possibilities you want to consider. Of course they wouldn't use paper money if it wasn't backed by something. Although scripts for a value of "somehting", whatever you want to RP it as, would eventually crop up. The money system we use is for ease of play. What it exactly is can be up to everyones imagination. You can trade goods now for other goods and services. If we want to spend time and energy making it easier, so be it. But carrying on about "money" in the game has little to do with anything. | ||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Jun 23, 2011, 1:50 pm |
that my friend is complete BS... i have been arguning this point since you were in nappies |
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*goat starer* Posted Jun 23, 2011, 1:52 pm |
again.. absolute nonsense.. i have always argued for massively hiked perma damage in private, in public... everywhere. If i argued against any of your suggestions it would have been because specific mechanisms you suggested would have mede the game unplayable I would imagine.. but i dont remember you ever arguing anything of the sort. |
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*goat starer* Posted Jun 23, 2011, 1:54 pm |
you absolute pillock.. i have been arguing this stuff since 2007
EDIT.. oops 2007 |
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*goat starer* Posted Jun 23, 2011, 2:03 pm |
yes it does... because the game economy is set up with cash as a medium of exchange.. and set up with an inexhaustible supply of cash. If all this change did was ascribe notional hidden 'money' values to goods so you could exchange them with other players and the market at set rates you are correct that it would make no difference. But that is not what is being proposed. what IS being proposed is that for people who want to play a post apocalyptic car game instead of Jalopy Tycoon there needs to be scarcity built into the game. You only get that with hiked perma and the removal of the ability to generate inexhaustible exchange tokens (whatever they might be). I'm suggesting it as an OPTION... I don't believe it breaks the 'player base' as previously stated because we dont actually all play one game.. we play lots of interrelated games with our mates. I would prefer it to be across the game..... i think it would be good for the game... but as every suggestion ever made by anyone splits the game community in 2 its not possible. The idea that there is something game breaking in having different settings of difficulty is pretty weird... |
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d0dger Posted Jun 23, 2011, 3:08 pm |
I haven't seen yet where your suggestions prevent an inexhaustible supply of car parts and scrap metal as the replacement 'currency' This is still the biggest problem I have with the proposed changes thus far. We're just replacing cash as currency earned by selling looted cars with other items as currency stripped from looted cars. The game still creates an inexhaustible supply of enemy cars to loot and therefore of the currency, whatever it may be. With that in mind, it's just window dressing. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jun 23, 2011, 5:42 pm |
To be honest using another persons account daemon_Angel / Fealty Lost ( whether it was yours originally or not ) will make for confusion.
If Sam considers his time worthy of initializing this ' hard core ' game mode, that runs in line with how we play now ( notice this is what he said, no mention of making everyone play this style )then what is the problem. Bringing political stances to this debate is a waste of breath. If this can be done, let it be done, enough people have shown interest. If a % of your gang members could be set aside to play this ' hard core' version more members will join in ( i will if given this choice ). if some want 100% hard core gang, let them. continuous moaning and shouting down of an idea that holds the developers attention, will not make other projects jump to the fore. remember Sam needs some fun doing all this, if he considers this a fun bit of coding for himself to take part in, this keeps him fresh and gives us all a chance to have the developer stay immersed here and not fade away with constant bitching that has to be witnessed. |
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JS Posted Jun 23, 2011, 5:45 pm |
Exactamundo. |
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JS Posted Jun 23, 2011, 5:47 pm |
I never said most of what your straw man arguments are implying. Make a hard core game. I hope it works. I was commenting on underlying assumptions about "money". |
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GrowlingBadger Posted Jun 23, 2011, 8:41 pm |
I had an idea once. It was confiscated and I was so disappointed. | ||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Jun 23, 2011, 9:37 pm |
because an inexhaustible supply of car parts and scrap are totally worthless in teh model i suggested? you cant sell them.. nobody will swap them for anything. under my suggestion only things that are scarce have any value except to the individual (to repair their own cars) under the current model all worthless tat is transformed into cash that can then be exchanged for firetrucks... rocket boosters... lasers.. blah blah blah I would have thought that that would be obvious to you.. im not surprised JS doesnt get it.. |
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*Tinker* Posted Jun 23, 2011, 9:50 pm |
All that and do we really need 50-60 gangers ? just throwing that out there. |
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*Tinker* Posted Jun 23, 2011, 10:40 pm |
And how do you really deal with an endless hoard of car parts, scrap metal, tires, eps, pistols?
There are so little items to choose from, too easy to stockpile, but theres nothing you can do to stop that no mater how big it gets So I think it should be worthless next to food medicine fuel, car parts and big variation of other resources to survive so thank god it's optional
So how is this concept of everyone blocked off from each other finically work? |
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*goat starer* Posted Jun 23, 2011, 11:45 pm |
i'm sorry tink.. think language is getting in the way here... i have no idea what this means. but what i THINK is.. if you have scarcity in some items and surplus of others the scarce ones become the means of exchange. The problem in the DW economy is that even the most common items can be changed into cash which makes them valuable. so scarcity only exists at teh very high end... and it is only scarcity that and challenge keeps people playing |
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*Tinker* Posted Jun 24, 2011, 12:00 am |
my edit came to late
but you opened a can of worms I thought a few things 1. you can't fix the need to grow wealthy, but who cares so moving on 2. you can't fix the endless amount of stuff to shoot at and turn into dineros bucks antlers etc.. 3. so i think things got to be put in perspective, you need to survive 1st get powerful if you can later, and it should never be possible to do alone at all ever because you should need friends and relatives i think it should be optional, like turning on the tap and the other question to Sam was about how this would build contacts and friendship partners etc... because it's a rough world out there |
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*Bastille* Posted Jun 24, 2011, 3:45 am |
Still have not read your mail goat too much Firepower going on in UNTIL HQ.
Had some ideas that I will pop up here though. (and no, read a book and learn stuff was not one of them) Scrap and junk is to repair stuff in this model, so its being consumed all the time. I would think that this is where much choice is based, how can i use my scrap to get me back out there. No scrap for repairs and you''re running damaged cars. Be nice to see the NPCs randomly damaged too and arena cars, myabe no mega bad motors so cars move. Chassis and guns not so bad. I repaired a cars chassis from snapped in half once to drive from Coongee lakes to Birdsville (central Australia - Coopers creek catchment area). Fun experience. Tie big logs to chassis rails, hope like hell you don't hit a rabbit warren. Fuel and ammo can be won on the track and arena, no time spent there and you got no fuel other than what you loot, and that should be real slim. So, more ped scouting in between scouts. Find and mark locations on your map for individuals to go out and pick up what you ped scout or previous scout has found. ok, I read mail now, or at least look at it, touch screen and hope I absorb the info through osmosis. |
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*viKKing* Posted Jun 24, 2011, 11:45 am |
Yes you can. Avoid unlimited resupply for NPC gangs. They need to have fixed resources too (certainly not in the way players do). |
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*Tinker* Posted Jun 24, 2011, 11:55 am |
well there's maybe a way.... limit squad size by best leadership, just throwing numbers out there max cr of squad = leadership x3 |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jun 24, 2011, 11:58 am |
you both advocating NPC running out of vehicles ? dont you want a game anymore ? | ||||||
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*Tinker* Posted Jun 24, 2011, 12:09 pm |
Just throwing ideas out, but this would be optional anyways | ||||||
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Dundar Posted Jun 24, 2011, 4:07 pm |
Again, there is no way you can eliminate money from the game. If you try to get rid of "cash" as a form of currency all you will do is create multiple different currencies in the game that will be in the form of scrap metal, stones, medicine, water, rifles, etc... People will exchange these goods with each other based on the current value of that commodity. In effect while you might have a more "real" in game economy you will only create some new mini-game within Darkwind called “The Commodities Market”. Wow. Loads of fun there. I can see it now…
Player 1: “I will give you 1000 stone, 500 scrap metal, 200 plastics for that Apache chassi.” Player2: “Hmm, let me go check the market on those items and calculate their current value.” Player 1: Dies of boredom. You should never add tedium to a game as a required function to play it. That isn’t Hardcore. It’s just stupid. |
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GrowlingBadger Posted Jun 24, 2011, 4:17 pm |
One mans poison...
What you describe Dundar is precisely what I think would happen post apocalypse (except for the bit about calculating market value - it would be what I wanna trade and the other person is prepared to accept) and would personally welcome in the game. I dont think its tedium or stupid. GB PS: But if it aint broken don't fix it. |
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Jeelz Posted Jun 24, 2011, 4:36 pm |
I think it's not just realistic but more practical (hence the realism) that some form of agreed value currency would be formed in nearly any society, be it in the form of cash, beads, coco seeds or cubits of water.
I have no problem with the 'hardcore' proposal but I think Dundar hits the nail on the head. Take out cash and you are just replacing it with some other widget to value stuff with, even if it is a consumable. |
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*Tango* Posted Jun 24, 2011, 5:24 pm |
Isn't this thread about AI path-finding? | ||||||
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jun 24, 2011, 5:26 pm |
Not anymore |
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Snidely Carmichael Posted Jun 24, 2011, 7:15 pm |
Yes, the path to enlightenment. 
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*sam* Posted Jun 24, 2011, 10:15 pm |
+1 It's very easy to make arguments about realism without thinking about the impact on the game. |
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*Tinker* Posted Jun 24, 2011, 10:58 pm |
But it's a valid point to bring up (all them cars in the desert) as it's the crux of the whole thread possibly
remove the value of car parts by greatly increasing the number of items salvageable, simple and everyone should be happy anyone ever play Sundog? 
It had a great system of drag and dropping components to get repairs done, or at least get working properly |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jun 24, 2011, 11:24 pm |
valid points do not make for good game play
or do i need to mention that Lasers wouldn't be working |
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Ragnak Posted Jun 25, 2011, 6:28 am |
It escapes me why Sam would even need to create another difficulty mode to satisfy a subset of the players.
Couldnt players who found the game so un-challenging simply take it upon themselves to set their own restrictions to gameplay. Too easy of a game, try these on then - Children of the Corn gang - All members must be under 21 years old. Hit 21, you get booted. Twisted Clowns - All you use are sub-compacts. nothing else. Fit as many guys in as you can. Pyros - Only weapons usable by the gang are fire related. Or get really extreme and run a Pyromaniac Twisted Children of the Corn Clown Gang! |
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*viKKing* Posted Jun 25, 2011, 9:23 am |
So what about AI pathfinding?
Are traders behaving as it should? |
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*Tinker* Posted Jun 25, 2011, 11:52 am |
AI pathfinding thread exploded on page 2 into;
Q ships for traders Semi-randomised builds (traders) new scout skills to see more info further (i.e. "spotter") Inaccurate or more generalised pre-event opposition report hidden armor values (for hardcore mode) removing money, using resources and your own gang's skills to tend to your own (for hardcore mode)
Got ambushed by traders, and they all jumped us, but some of the runners looked confused and seemed to run and come back |
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*goat starer* Posted Jun 25, 2011, 11:54 am |
expecting people to play 'stupid' when sensible exists is completely peverse and not in human nature. thats why games have always had difficulty settings... you COULD increase the difficulty in halflife by only playing with the crowbar... but . This game dos not allow you to play only with looted stuff because it is not set up to do that. You HAVE to have cash to play...
What beggars belief is how many of you dipsticks are objecting to something that will not affect you if you just keep playing in your sandpit with the toy cars
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*Tinker* Posted Jun 25, 2011, 12:03 pm |
For the Optional hardcore I like it, but it is limitative |
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*Tango* Posted Jun 25, 2011, 12:47 pm |
Nope. Traders stay with escorts until enemy is trying to escape at which point they try to run away. So basically no need to have chasers any more as the Traders patiently wait their turn to die. |
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Parapsycho Posted Jun 26, 2011, 1:59 am |
Or they turn and attack you like my last scout...
S366269 |