Loan cars ruining it?
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*sam* Posted Sep 29, 2011, 4:25 pm |
Did you see JeeTeeOh's post in the 'why is scav broken' thread (subscribers forum) ?
He makes a good argument against free loan cars. We could remove them and instead give new Scav gangs a couple of clunkers. Opinions? |
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betterlucky Posted Sep 29, 2011, 4:38 pm |
It does seem to unbalance things but there does need to be some sort of get of of jail card or else people could end up getting stuck with no car and no chance of getting one without begging in chat.
Most things are already available as race prices, is there any reason why a slightly battered chassis or engine couldn't also be offered as a prize from time to time? That way a gang can always accumulate the parts they can assemble into some sort of war wagon. Maybe that might only come from combat arena events where the winning gang earns some kind of scavenging rights at the end. |
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*sam* Posted Sep 29, 2011, 4:45 pm |
Yes, winning chassis/engines etc. would be possible. But even within the current system, you could barter the stuff you won in town with other players for a car? | ||||
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betterlucky Posted Sep 29, 2011, 5:06 pm |
Assuming other players are ready, willing and able to do so and the car-less guy isn't one of those "I want to do it all by myself" players, yes. But I guess I'm just being picky  .
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Marrkos Posted Sep 29, 2011, 5:13 pm |
Assuming no other code changes: a battered vehicle or two at the start, with a truly beat up vehicle as a prize in random events seems more in line with the idea of Scavenger
If other code changes are possible: Ped scouting against vehicles would provide a high-risk opportunity to grab a vehicle. Also, I've gotten the impression taking the loaners is more about the ammo than the vehicle, so add the ability to pull ammo out of weapons, and it seems like the draw of the loaners would diminish. |
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*Longo* Posted Sep 29, 2011, 5:14 pm |
Its a unique problem. Do borrowed cars meet the Scav "criteria" of what many think of the game should entail? No.
But there is nothing worse than not being able to play the game (really playing DW is scouting IMHO). |
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Juris Posted Sep 29, 2011, 5:34 pm |
Without loaners I probably couldn't scout - I've salvaged 3-4 cars so far but don't have the ammo for them and/or can't repair them so they are in worse condition than the loaners
Starting with two junkers instead of loaners would mean two more junkers in my garage Amateur night - win a good car with some spare ammo |
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GrowlingBadger Posted Sep 29, 2011, 6:08 pm |
Is the amateur night thing not workable - where you get to keep your car if you win? Can't enter unless you have no cars in your garage.
Another idea might be to enable gangers to enter a scout without a car - a gang of 20 gangers with hand weapons against 2 cars would be interesting to watch! GB |
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d0dger Posted Sep 29, 2011, 7:43 pm |
+1 |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Sep 29, 2011, 8:00 pm |
Completely agree with the Jee Tee Oh's argument about why/how they break the game, but a couple of clunkers in the garage alone won't address all the reasons why people are using them so much.
As others have pointed out, ammo is far more of an issue as well as the capacity to play (to a lesser degree). As things stand fixing a car up, swapping weapons with ammo in etc amounts to some significant down time from playing if you try to avoid using the loaners. Not a show-stopper by itself (there is water to race for etc), but certainly a consideration. |
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*General Mayhem* Posted Sep 29, 2011, 8:11 pm |
Agree with the arguments about loaners, though if I can field a car with ammo then I do... lost a number already.
Basically it is the lack of ammo that drives me to use a loaner...not the risk of my vehicles themselves. There have been a number of statments about taking ammo from looted weapons....any chance of getting ammo when you scrap a weapon? Could be something to consider. |
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JS Posted Sep 29, 2011, 8:29 pm |
Having a button that "consolidates" all ammo from a type of wepaons would fix most of these issues. Take all ammo out, put it into however many clips the total number of rounds would make. It would not add too much ammo to the game, but it would add enough that you actually do something. | ||||
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4saken Posted Sep 29, 2011, 8:55 pm |
Sure, the loaner system is broken, but Scav is currently unplayable without it.
Ammo is the big problem (and, yes, it's much better than it used to be!). And if there are no loaners other things will bump to the top of the list. For instance you have no way to scrounge many broken things and make one functional thing. You could loot ten Pho chassis but have no way to take the parts and combine them into one good one (not without a 50+ mech, at any rate). In such an environment, this is exactly what we would do, but currently we can't. We can't even combine ammo from different clips. Until these issues are resolved in some way I see no way around having loaners. Another point I differ with is how we treat manpower, but I'll save that for another thread. As far as difficulty goes I am over 50 games into it, my gang will be suffering from thirst within a week, and I can barely keep even one combat car functional. And that's with infinite free loaners will full ammo. And dogfights are my preferred playstyle. |
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Rokkitz Posted Sep 29, 2011, 10:09 pm |
I agree with everyone that think the lack of ammo is the problem.
And please, do NOT make us do town events to survive. Some of us still dont think it belongs in a post apoc world (unless of course youre driving your own cars). |
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Philyn Posted Sep 29, 2011, 10:36 pm |
I don't think the loaners are good for scav either but it would be unplayable without them for the many reasons mentioned.
I still think having your own mini camp in town is what scavenger needs. You have production like a camp to make things. Let say your Mech is under 50, you could only make MG, light rocket and handgun ammo. At 50 maybe you can make higher level ammo and manufacture machine guns. This would allow you to scrap the stuff you bring in and make in into something useful, isn't that what scavengers do. On another note I think the Mech levels needed for repairs currently are too high. I would be less likely to use a loaner if I could repair easier. This still would leave the lack of ammo problem. Phi |
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Stevello Posted Sep 29, 2011, 11:59 pm |
What about the thought of only being able to get borroweds until a mechanic hits 50 skill?
By level 50 in mechanic, you should have looted some chasis to fix up, gotten a halfway decent engine, some scrap, ammo, and ability to armor it all up in B armor. At this point, you are on your own. If you lose your level 50 mech, it is back to borroweds being available. This seems like a way to keep those that are newbies, or those gangs that just lost their mechanic and fielded cars (returning to newbie) a chance to get started climbing up the ladder again. |
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*sam* Posted Sep 30, 2011, 9:03 am |
OK, point taken about ammo. To some extent you can blame the beta testers, heh.. they kept shouting at me to make it more hardcore and reduce prizes in town events etc. 
I'm (right now) going to code it up so that when you scrap a weapon with more than half a clip of ammo, you get a clip from it. |
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*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Sep 30, 2011, 9:13 am |
Ammo?! This is hardcore mode! You don't need ammo! Get out and kick them to death! |
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*Tinker* Posted Sep 30, 2011, 9:17 am |
This i love if code was not a problem, the real "car parts" would be great cal it car part (axle) car part (steering) car part (struts) car part (chassis) heh maybe that's too complicated, but something that let's you make something from that junk in the garage |
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Blaer Posted Sep 30, 2011, 10:18 am |
Each weapon I have salvaged knowS exactly how much ammo is in it? Would it be so difficult to code by shot as opposed to by clip? Also, fuel is a sour-puss for me... Whenever I solo scout, I must bring an Elim along to have fuel for it and my empty vehicle (one can used for a mere 2 unit tank) thought it has been brought up before... Pulling fuel/syphon it from my cars when I get home and "bank" it? Oh... And about the prizes in events? I've heard of some sick prizes... I get 2 water and I'm tickled pink, but did someone say they got 10 ammo from one? Holy cats! That's a bit lucrative ain't it? (I'm all for minimal prizes... Events don't "much" make sense w/o own vehicle use) driving around in event after event in all these fancy non-league requested thingies? Seems to be the wrong flavor to me as well...
+1 @ Stevello's idea! |
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*Bastille* Posted Sep 30, 2011, 11:02 am |
Hmm, mech spec - make chassis - buggy. |
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*viKKing* Posted Sep 30, 2011, 5:32 pm |
Borrowed cars are a good thing if we can stop abusing the system. 1) if you borrow a car you HAVE TO return the car after the event. 2) if you fail to do so, you are requested to provide a vehicle which can be considered as equivalent (armor points, equipment, etc). 3) I would suggest to provide only small cars like Buggy, Dustup, Racoon, Cadrona, Alpha (no, not Marley, it's too good for you!) and Estate (in place of the pick-up)(this one is also particular as Sam is dreaming to watch my gangers dying within those vehicles, for some reason, for years, you can't refuse him, can you?  ).
What about providing one among those vehicles to each starting gang BTW? Buggy, Dustup, Racoon, Cadrona, Alpha and Estate *: they are obviously fitted to the scavenger mode: rusted and damaged chassis and so on.
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Juris Posted Sep 30, 2011, 5:47 pm |
I agree, too bad the gangs we fight have infinite numbers of moose, pho, merc, and PU chassis, as well as infinite ammo But yeah, scav encounters need a different feel - we need new NPC designs that are not optimized for combat |
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Crazy AL Posted Sep 30, 2011, 5:58 pm |
From my post in the Mini Camp thread...
Blaer said: Hmm... Camp in town... I like the potential... You need to build up storage capacity or things begin to rot? Things like that would please me... This unlimited storage makes for mass hoarding of anything and everything cause, well, I can... I wrote: I suggested this very thing a while back! Why do I need a camp to break stuff down? Anyone, anywhere should be able to break down stuff. Camps should be about manufacturing. You could even make it a little like Fallout 3 with the weapons & engines. If I have three 2L engines at 20%, 45% and 60%, I should be able to part out the lesser two and contribute (for instance) half their percentage to the 60% engine. Breaking down the 20% engine would give 10% to the 60% engine making it 70%. Breaking down the 45% engine would contribute 22% making it 92%. This would require a skilled enough mech to do the repairs and no engine, chassis or weapon could be brought above it's perma. And the weapon breakdown for ammo was another suggestion. I realize this is a game but it's still steeped in reality. If the ammo situation in Scav is as bad as it is, people would dismantle an entire gun to get at the shells. |
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Groove Champion Posted Sep 30, 2011, 6:33 pm |
I really like JTO's post about the problem.
I can think of two suggestions for fixing this, one boring and one fun: 1. Place a limit on the number of times a player can borrow a loaner every day. (boring) 2. Add a scouting option for players to launch a ped squad out of the town gates: they could encounter a single vehicle and attempt to hijack it. (fun) |
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Serephe Posted Oct 1, 2011, 12:57 am |
Let me put it this way, I'm waiting on 2 things to play: No loaners, and scav only pro events as the only town events. 
Well, and the ability to produce basic ammo (mg ammo), weapons (mgs) and chassis (Racoons!) from scrap. And requirements of keeping food and water in correct towns as your people. And motorcycles. And articulated vehicles. And gyrocopters. And sniper being nerfed into car rifles spec. And traders being reworked. So... more than 2 things, and not all of them related to scav, but whatever! :P |
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*Bastille* Posted Oct 1, 2011, 6:37 am |
No loaners, yes
Pro only town events, no. Town events are put on by the locals in old heaps, this is how people unafiliated with a gang survive. I would like to see Scav designs for town events. Randomly beat up cars, you are lucky to get teh one that makes the finish line. And see them completely seperate from normal events. Amatuer night is the obvious solution in my mind. Symph only events, winner keeps car. Enough events so people can enter regularly. No entry allowed if you already have a car. Amatuers only. And this is why the non pro town events are important. No rentals, no regular car, you have to go to amatuer night for it, you need some other form of entertainment for the locals. Id like it to go back to NOT knowing the prizes for events. Knowing what I get for doing what... bad. Lucky dip.... better. **AMATUER NIGHT** the only way to go |
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Blaer Posted Oct 1, 2011, 7:06 am |
an interesting approach... I gotta say it intrigues me... I didn't have too much trouble with not knowing the prize... and it was a nice surprise to hunt and see "whatcha got?"
As for booting rentals, and doin a straight amateur night only thing... perhaps... but I caution that said car, upon victory, is fixed up to a certain degree (using the scraps of the losers for flavour text) so that taking said car out on a scout isn't an automatic death sentence... or a "go back to amatuer nite" free card every time... Just my two cents... but I like the way ya think
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*viKKing* Posted Oct 1, 2011, 2:47 pm |
Agreed. Whatever he says, even if it seems he is suffering some form of fever... |
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*jimmylogan* Posted Oct 1, 2011, 4:05 pm |
One comment about amateur nights...
I disagree with these two things... First - I have several cars I've looted, but can't do anything with them because of chassis damage or no halfway decent engine. Or no ammo... What few I've managed to make scouting vehicles I've lost (usually along with the crew). So - by your notes above, I couldn't enter an ammeter night because "I have a car." Second - how do you determine who's an amateur and who's not? To me it's all about game play. If you put a restriction on there, how am I supposed to play if I've had bad luck and lost my crew and cars? |
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*sam* Posted Oct 4, 2011, 9:55 am |
OK, how does this look for a plan?
1. get rid of loan cars and.. 2. implement ped-scouting (town gates maps only) – you're up against creatures or a small number of weak enemy cars. Normal gangs can do these too. and.. 3. implement a 'search' ped ability (normal gangs can do it too). 'Junkpile' models added dynamically to the map – searched for ammo, fuel, hand weapons, etc. Also a few cars with destroyed engines (remnants of a previous battle) which can be searched/looted. Searching like this is slow and gives an increased risk of mutant creatures appearing. Event won't auto-end in your favour as long as a search is happening. and.. 4. implement 'amateur night' events – crappy chassis types, pre-damaged, scav gangs only, winner gets to keep car, which is partially fixed up at event end. |
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GrowlingBadger Posted Oct 4, 2011, 10:30 am |
That sounds tremendous Mr Sam, although finding hand weapons in junk piles a little un realistic. In car wrecks perhaps.
But great. GB |
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*Bastille* Posted Oct 4, 2011, 10:59 am |
Yeah good point, I didn't really think it through, was just thinking about stopping over use of the amatuer night.
Yay! that sounds fantastic. |
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*Tinker* Posted Oct 4, 2011, 11:37 am |
awesome Sam, and finding the odd ped weapon in the sand isn't unrealistic imo, just rare | ||||
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Stevello Posted Oct 4, 2011, 12:02 pm |
I have lost enough armed peds in the sands to arm a small army. Sounds fun. | ||||
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Serephe Posted Oct 4, 2011, 12:31 pm |
That may bring me back, if only for another 3 month session.
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GrowlingBadger Posted Oct 4, 2011, 12:43 pm |
Quick cancel it, we can't have Sere coming back!
I jest, love ya reallly. GB |
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*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Oct 4, 2011, 3:48 pm |
Man oh my. I might just start playing scav properly if this gets implemented. |
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BWGunner Posted Oct 4, 2011, 5:35 pm |
What this actually looks like is implementation of the deeper encounter types that really create an RP experience across the board.
Scav has managed to make the issue very prominent. Scouts and Events are not enough to create a world. Kudos to the future, Sam, no matter how gritty and nasty it may be! |
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*Longo* Posted Oct 4, 2011, 5:50 pm |
Sounds good Sam.
My main concern is ped weapons/ammo with the ped encounters. Its pretty hard to get both in Scav. Also, any chance of a new ability - Scavenger? or a spec under Mechs and/or Courage? |
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Rokkitz Posted Oct 4, 2011, 5:54 pm |
I dont think its difficult to get ped weaps or ammo.
You guys are just way to keen to loot cars. Start killing and there will be tons. |
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*Longo* Posted Oct 4, 2011, 6:11 pm |
PS -
Sam - the ability to reload ped weapons in town in scav will need to be fixed |
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Blaer Posted Oct 4, 2011, 7:22 pm |
bah... don't be a sissy... it's 10 rounds to slam a clip in... at the start of an encounter, crouch, and start reloading... and if you're mowed down before you can reload. well.. then... sux to be you... toughen up man
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Serephe Posted Oct 4, 2011, 7:55 pm |
Nah he's got a point there. Being able to pop one of your own clips into the gun into town (or as a cheap fix, allowing us to reload ped weapons while in the vheicle, whatevers easier) should be done. It doesn't make sense not to be able to carry around a loaded rifle instead of an empty rifle and a clip. | ||||
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*Ninesticks* Posted Oct 4, 2011, 8:41 pm |
Agreed about the ped weapon loading issue.
As an aside, I have been trying (cos my SS crew were eliminated by those Butane baddies) to just scout with my own chassis out of Elms in the hunt for the much fabled 'water'. So far I am happy to say, with the recent tweaks it is eminently doable and seems to be sitting just about right in terms of resource difficulty (e.g. having to scrap decent chassis to get enough scrap metal to re-armour), getting enough ammo to keep me ticking over etc. I have even looted some water! |
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*sam* Posted Oct 6, 2011, 8:57 am |
Noted - I'll do this one right now before getting down to the other items. edit: ok, this works now. The ammo is sourced from your lockup in preference, else from the character's personal inventory |
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Serephe Posted Oct 6, 2011, 10:52 am |
Like. | ||||
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*Longo* Posted Oct 6, 2011, 5:28 pm |
Thanks Sam. |
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Blaer Posted Oct 7, 2011, 1:01 am |
nice work Sam.. I dig... seriously though... your "Notes" sticky... ya gotta start making use of it mate... we need a "comprehensive" list of the goings on... otherwise, unless we scour the forum, we'll miss a lot of info. May I suggest adding a reply to the thread, whenever there is an "update" if you will, and as well, edit the first post to incorporate said information, so that eventually the First post will read as a "where we're at" map... so to speak... | ||||
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Blaer Posted Oct 19, 2011, 10:07 pm |
bit of a bump... we gettin rid of the rentals soon? | ||||
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*sam* Posted Oct 19, 2011, 11:04 pm |
Yes, I need to write the code for 'amateur night' to introduce at the same time | ||||
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Blaer Posted Oct 19, 2011, 11:10 pm |
First you need to write a code that your rep with civs/merchants is neutral or better... if they don't like you, why are they gonna give you wheels? | ||||
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*sam* Posted Oct 20, 2011, 7:45 pm |
OK, Scav rentals are gone. We now have Amateur Nights instead: see announcements thread. | ||||
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Oct 21, 2011, 9:50 pm |
ROCKIN!
Thanks Sam! |
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adrianjenny1 Posted Oct 31, 2011, 11:24 am |
*deleted* | ||||
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Groovelle Posted Oct 31, 2011, 8:34 pm |
aw, cute. A spammer. | ||||
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Juris Posted Oct 31, 2011, 8:39 pm |
It'd be even funnier if a spambot started a gang | ||||
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GrowlingBadger Posted Oct 31, 2011, 9:01 pm |
Great name for a gang...The Ovulation Tests. |