*sam* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 12:53 pm	Hi all.. just to let you know I'm doing a review of all specialist skills with a view to applying soft caps. In several cases, the effects can start to get silly after about level 4 or 5. To be honest, when I implemented them I wasn't really considering that anyone would go above that level with them. Some remain fine without soft-caps. I'll list the ones here that I think are most unbalanced, please feel free to comment! [more to come, I'm still reviewing right now..] - Sniper - Rapid Reload - Engine Tuning - Defensive Driver - Negotiator
Jety Posted Jul 11, 2014, 2:42 pm	In my experience negotiator is a highly ineffective skill. I pretty much assume it won't work ever. Hearing that it's over-powered makes me scratch my head in confusion. Maybe I just never had a Neg 5...?
Necrotech Posted Jul 11, 2014, 2:44 pm	Negotiator also works pre encounter. So a say scout 4 can most likely can truce from BL to Sars, regardless of rep.. with out a single direct encounter.
Jety Posted Jul 11, 2014, 2:47 pm	There was a really good discussion about the sniper skill in the "changes coming" thread. One idea that it seemed like almost everyone agreed with was that rather than nerfing sniper, making it only work for 'snipery' weapons (cr, hcr, laser) might be a more appropriate solution.
*sam* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 3:07 pm	Jety said: There was a really good discussion  about the sniper skill in the "changes coming" thread. One idea that it seemed like almost everyone agreed with was that rather than nerfing sniper, making it only work for 'snipery' weapons (cr, hcr, laser) might be a more appropriate solution. Yes, for sure. I should clarify this is not a broad-based 'nerf' of Sniper.. the main thing I'm doing here in all cases is looking to make the effects have a diminishing effect for each additional level, rather than having them stack linearly.. it's having certain skills such as sniper above about level 4 that it starts getting overpowered if there's no power function/soft-cap applied. edit: I note from comments in my code that at some stage in the past I removed the use of the sniper skill for large-gun category weapons, but later put it back. This was probably due to player complaints.. there may be some discussion ahead. I'm going to create a poll on this..
Ragnak Posted Jul 11, 2014, 4:09 pm	Jety said: In my experience negotiator is a highly ineffective skill. I pretty much assume it won't work ever. Hearing that it's over-powered makes me scratch my head in confusion. Maybe I just never had a Neg 5...? I think there have been too many variables in place to allow a player to understand just what their negotiator skill was doing for them. I had drivers up to negotiator 7 level and always still had encounters running South of Badlands. There was nothing ever like a free ride anywhere. My rep was with Civs and Merchants so it seems that plenty of Pirates, Anarchist, and Muties wanted a piece of me. Incidentally, I also remember most of those encounters as being very likely ambush setups as well.
*sam* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 4:11 pm	Necrotech said: Negotiator also works pre encounter. So a say scout 4 can most likely can truce from BL to Sars, regardless of rep.. with out a single direct encounter. Actually, negotiator doesn't work pre-encounter. It's faction standings that work pre-encounter. However.. I just found a bug in the code that creates travel encounters, which was making it too easy to truce your way through travels based on faction standings. I'm fixing that now but I have not yet made any specs changes in the live game.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jul 11, 2014, 4:14 pm	I dont understand how engine tuning or negotiator makes the list...yet rapid shot is not there. I am very worried about who you are getting your info from sam. I think its the wrong people.
FireFly Posted Jul 11, 2014, 4:15 pm	*sam* said: Necrotech said: Negotiator also works pre encounter. So a say scout 4 can most likely can truce from BL to Sars, regardless of rep.. with out a single direct encounter. Incidentally.. I just found a bug in the code that creates travel encounters, which was making it too easy to truce your way through travels based on faction standings. I'm fixing that now but I have not yet made any specs changes in the live game. I'm not entirely sure it's a bug that friends won't attack you on sight  (Just having fun) I know you don't like giving stats but I have to ask, what is the relative value of specs like machinegunner/rocketeer compared to sniper and moving targets? In my eyes those specialist specs have always been very underwhelming and maybe should have been brought up to snuff. (Laserfire/Flamespec nonewithstanding, for obvious damage increasing reasons) Joel, you don't see a problem with a spec that lets your car go faster than other players in town events without actually having to have the character present in the event? Imagine if we had armor tuner and weapon tuners? That somehow seems more Free than Free.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jul 11, 2014, 4:16 pm	*sam* said: Necrotech said: Negotiator also works pre encounter. So a say scout 4 can most likely can truce from BL to Sars, regardless of rep.. with out a single direct encounter. Incidentally.. I just found a bug in the code that creates travel encounters, which was making it too easy to truce your way through travels based on faction standings. I'm fixing that now but I have not yet made any specs changes in the live game. Oh...wow... there was like a massive forum war about this a few months ago... Uhh ya its nice to have you back
*sam* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 4:18 pm	Joel Autobaun said: I dont understand how engine tuning or negotiator makes the list...yet rapid shot is not there. I am very worried about who you are getting your info from sam.  I think its the wrong people. I am planning to modify rapidshot a bit, yes. At high specs and without any kind of soft cap, engine tuner is *massively* overpowered, I can guarantee you that. Not from people but from code.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jul 11, 2014, 4:20 pm	Damn... only ever had 3 tuner...explains some lord foul records(you are going down). Fair enough sam...carry on lol
*sam* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 4:33 pm	In terms of psionics, 'Burn' seems to be the one that gets complained about... are there any others that are too powerful?
Krakhedd Posted Jul 11, 2014, 4:50 pm	*sam* said: Hi all.. just to let you know I'm doing a review of all specialist skills with a view to applying soft caps. In several cases, the effects can start to get silly after about level 4 or 5. To be honest, when I implemented them I wasn't really considering that anyone would go above that level with them. Some remain fine without soft-caps. I'll list the ones here that I think are most unbalanced, please feel free to comment! [more to come, I'm still reviewing right now..] - Sniper - Rapid Reload - Engine Tuning - Defensive Driver - Negotiator I never get use of my engine tuning spec anyway, I have a level 1 and a level 2 in separate towns.
Krakhedd Posted Jul 11, 2014, 4:53 pm	*sam* said: Necrotech said: Negotiator also works pre encounter. So a say scout 4 can most likely can truce from BL to Sars, regardless of rep.. with out a single direct encounter. Actually, negotiator doesn't work pre-encounter. It's faction standings that work pre-encounter. However.. I just found a bug in the code that creates travel encounters, which was making it too easy to truce your way through travels based on faction standings. I'm fixing that now but I have not yet made any specs changes in the live game. Can you please be more specific, for those of us who pay close attention to our faction standings?  Give examples of when a truce was happening and should not have?
*sam* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 5:06 pm	Krakhedd said: *sam* said: Necrotech said: Negotiator also works pre encounter. So a say scout 4 can most likely can truce from BL to Sars, regardless of rep.. with out a single direct encounter. Actually, negotiator doesn't work pre-encounter. It's faction standings that work pre-encounter. However.. I just found a bug in the code that creates travel encounters, which was making it too easy to truce your way through travels based on faction standings. I'm fixing that now but I have not yet made any specs changes in the live game. Can you please be more specific, for those of us who pay close attention to our faction standings?  Give examples of when a truce was happening and should not have? Basically, three NPC gangs are randomly picked based on your scouting skill and if any of them don't auto-truce then the combat starts. But the way it was coded, it would actually pick the same NPC gang three times, a lot of the time (your scouting skill is tested against their fame.. it should have a random factor included but didn't).
*Brunwulf* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 5:21 pm	I thought negotiator was about right. I had (now dead) a 300+ NEG scout who could pretty much drive encounterless around the northern triangle, but got a couple of encounters on way to BL, and a 3-4 fom BL-FL. That's sounds about right to me when you've trained someone to 300+ doesn't it? My current highest is 4 NEG, and she gets the occasional encounter up north. Don't nerf it too much SAM- there's got to be a tangible worth when training scouters past the 200 mark (takes a long time and a LOT of travelling) Just my opinion. Love, Brun X
Joel Autobaun Posted Jul 11, 2014, 5:38 pm	*sam* said: In terms of psionics, 'Burn' seems to be the one that gets complained about... are there any others that are too powerful? Burn gets complained about because of one event.  Coe2.  Very useful there...in any other situation ..meh Frankly all psi is too powerful.  Myself and longo warned of this... now we have spent real game years developing them and they are about to become useless.  Me personally i dont care...i knew this would happen...others who have spent the considerable time developing them now is your time to speak up. Notice a few things here sam.  Every skill that is useful in pvp is getting complained about.  Very few pve skill which are over powered (negotiator...mindcontrol) ever get complained about.  You infact are having to nerf some skills because you didnt think people would obtain these skills and they wouldnt have except for the extremely soft...weak carebear environment created by the incessant whining of the pve crowd. Dont get me wrong i know there is no going back now.  I just wanted to say it.  I knew this day would come.
*Rev. V* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 6:05 pm	Sam said- "edit: I note from comments in my code that at some stage in the past I removed the use of the sniper skill for large-gun category weapons, but later put it back. This was probably due to player complaints." ----------------------------------------------------- I was one of the rather vocal complainers, honestly it pissed me off to no end. That said, my reasons may have been different than other people's reasons. I didn't mind the change, because sniper IS overpowered. But folks were ALSO supposed to be given the chance to respec their gangers to accomodate the change, rather than being left hanging with gangers that were set up using the previous way of doing things. Then we got the nerf, which I didn't mind.....except that the respec part of this never happened. Had BOTH parts of the change been implemented, I think you would have gotten a LOT less complaining.
*The X Man* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 6:11 pm	*sam* said: Some remain fine without soft-caps. One thing that will help on player input is to define what a soft cap is and how it affects that specialism. A better understanding may lead to better suggestions.
Necrotech Posted Jul 11, 2014, 6:11 pm	Joel Autobaun said: I dont understand how engine tuning or negotiator makes the list...yet rapid shot is not there. I am very worried about who you are getting your info from sam.  I think its the wrong people. Rapidshot - Seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that it is on a per level basis - Lvl 1 = 10% Lvl 2 = 20% etc. max @ Lvl 3 @ 30% You expend ammo at ridiculous which then has to be offset by Rapid Reload. I would leave that for now. Engine Tuner - Don't see that an issue with that as it stands, I see more gain at the moment from Chrome motors than Engine Tuner. Defensive Driver - Yes, diminishing return well may be in order here, especially when you can get the skill in 3 different vehicle types. Culminated with a vehicle class that has no bearing except give extra specs (cycles), eliminate the cycle class until cycles are implemented and allow a respec of those skills. Jump starter - Same as above with Defensive Driver Scout skills - I guess I don't see it the need for tweaking, save negotiator. Love the vehicle identification idea. Sniper - Like Hvy weapons, Machine Gunner, Rockeeter, and similiar, should be contained to own Sub class of weapon, such as HCR, Car Rifle, and Rifles. Submachine guns should fall under MG spec.
*sam* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 6:19 pm	Necrotech said: Rapidshot - Seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that it is on a per level basis - Lvl 1 = 10% Lvl 2 = 20% etc. max @ Lvl 3 @ 30% That's about right in terms of effect yes.. you're saying a level 10 should have 100% chance of shooting twice on each round? Quote: Engine Tuner - Don't see that an issue with that as it stands, I see more gain at the moment from Chrome motors than Engine Tuner. You can't be basing that on any knowledge of high-spec engine tuner then, because right now at high levels it's far more potent than Chromed-engines.
*sam* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 6:22 pm	*The X Man* said: *sam* said: Some remain fine without soft-caps. One thing that will help on player input is to define what a soft cap is and how it affects that specialism. A better understanding may lead to better suggestions. By soft cap, I mean the effect diminishes with each additional level, but at no point does an extra level add nothing at all. The way I'd implement these would be based on a power function (where the power is less than 1). Typically in the range 0.5 to 0.8. So, for example using 0.8: 1^0.8 = 1 2^0.8 = 1.74 3^0.8 = 2.41 . . . 10^0.8 = 6.31
*sam* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 6:28 pm	*Rev. V* said: Sam said- "edit: I note from comments in my code that at some stage in the past I removed the use of the sniper skill for large-gun category weapons, but later put it back. This was probably due to player complaints." ----------------------------------------------------- I was one of the rather vocal complainers, honestly it pissed me off to no end. That said, my reasons may have been different than other people's reasons. I didn't mind the change, because sniper IS overpowered. But folks were ALSO supposed to be given the chance to respec their gangers to accomodate the change, rather than being left hanging with gangers that were set up using the previous way of doing things. Then we got the nerf, which I didn't mind.....except that the respec part of this never happened. Had BOTH parts of the change been implemented, I think you would have gotten a LOT less complaining. I think you must have been in the minority, yes. I don't recall the details, but I'm sure if allowing re-specs was all that was needed to smooth the change then I would have done it. It's easy to do.
Necrotech Posted Jul 11, 2014, 6:33 pm	*sam* said: In terms of psionics, 'Burn' seems to be the one that gets complained about... are there any others that are too powerful? Pyro is very limited for many reason.. and Psi skill are in general. Here are my reasonings 1 - To recruit or get a Psonically endowed character... The odds to receive are ridiculous. 2 - To train them is exceedingly slow, therefore adding addition age, and not being to train other skills generally. If a human, the age/mileage factor is even worse as the years of drug use wear a character. By time they even useful in most cases, they are almost dead to begin with. If a mutant, the above drawback is exponentially so. 3 - Pyro range is less than 50m, barring terrain.. is an incredibly short distance. Most people only get caught by this is because they are unaware that a pyro is in the vehicle in the first place. In this case, trying to be objective, and having been on both receiving and now giving end. When I didn't have a psi, it took me a couple times and learned to be wary and adjust for them. This also included doing homework on the opponents rank and file. Studying my opponents allows for me to prepare for them properly. Now that I have a few functioning psi's.. They do help, but only in certain venues and situations. If opponents are not prepared for them, or if a surprise attack (Last week's COE's were a perfect example those instances), how is that any different than fielding mounted mortars, or rolling a TT covered in Tank guns? I believe, in my opinion, the reason that people complain about Psi's is that they mostly unfamiliar with them due to extreme rarity, and then one gets sprung on them, the sky begins to fall. In their mind it is a fairness issue, where in reality it is a preparedness issue, or lack thereof. Some may never get a Psi, this is true.. but aligning with certain factions, having high reputations in certain places, I believe, give more of a chance to get them, While the drawback being most likely you are hunted mercilessly everywhere by "normal" factions.
Necrotech Posted Jul 11, 2014, 6:34 pm	*sam* said: Necrotech said: Rapidshot - Seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that it is on a per level basis - Lvl 1 = 10% Lvl 2 = 20% etc. max @ Lvl 3 @ 30% That's about right in terms of effect yes.. you're saying a level 10 should have 100% chance of shooting twice on each round? Quote: Engine Tuner - Don't see that an issue with that as it stands, I see more gain at the moment from Chrome motors than Engine Tuner. You can't be basing that on any knowledge of high-spec engine tuner then, because right now at high levels it's far more potent than Chromed-engines. Hard cap Rapidshot @ Lvl 3, this done for laser spec. But to honest.. you have a Rapidshot 10... you've earned it... becuase consider what other specs that ganger does NOT have. 10 Specs in one single skill, that character would be a Grand Master of Flowers of his craft.
PA Racers Posted Jul 11, 2014, 6:46 pm	Dont forget offensive driver! Why not soft cap them all the same?
FireFly Posted Jul 11, 2014, 6:47 pm	To be fair, I'm not sure I've seen offensive driver used effectively ever... Does it work in regular races? Only place I see it having any value.
Necrotech Posted Jul 11, 2014, 6:50 pm	FireFly said: To be fair, I'm not sure I've seen offensive driver used effectively ever... Does it work in regular races? Only place I see it having any value. Offensive Driver, rarely used in comparison to other specs... Why ram when you gun guns ?
*The X Man* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 7:01 pm	*sam* said: *The X Man* said: *sam* said: Some remain fine without soft-caps. One thing that will help on player input is to define what a soft cap is and how it affects that specialism. A better understanding may lead to better suggestions. By soft cap, I mean the effect diminishes with each additional level, but at no point does an extra level add nothing at all. The way I'd implement these would be based on a power function (where the power is less than 1). Typically in the range 0.5 to 0.8. So, for example using 0.8: 1^0.8 = 1 2^0.8 = 1.74 3^0.8 = 2.41 . . . 10^0.8 = 6.31 Thanks Sam, that helps a lot to understanding how the training works. But now you need to discuss, per specialism, which way you intend to balance it. 1) Reduce training effectiveness 2) Hard Cap the Specialism 3) Reduce Specialism to specific skill availability Doing any one of the three should be enough, but not any more than one. In general, I would lean towards a hard cap of about 5 as a start for discussion. Then give players the ability to respec what they are over the in the hard cap.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 7:17 pm	*sam* said: Hi all.. just to let you know I'm doing a review of all specialist skills with a view to applying soft caps. In several cases, the effects can start to get silly after about level 4 or 5. To be honest, when I implemented them I wasn't really considering that anyone would go above that level with them. Some remain fine without soft-caps. I'll list the ones here that I think are most unbalanced, please feel free to comment! [more to come, I'm still reviewing right now..] - Sniper - Rapid Reload - Engine Tuning - Defensive Driver - Negotiator Defensive driver never seemed unbalanced to me... Sniper needs changing into the specialism for car rifles and heavy car rifles only acting like machine guns or rocketeer. Everyone knows this... Some don't like to admit it because their whole game is built around this one spec. Negotiator is pretty useless until you get a very high level. Never used the others...
*SmokeyKilla* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 8:35 pm	Gangers already die to easily......I dont believe any specs should be nerfed. Even if someone does get a 10 +spec character how long is he gonna last? The only skill that should be modified is sniper and it should be be done by weapon type, bally, mgs, heavy, rockets and hand guns.
*Longo* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 8:40 pm	Negotiator doesnt need to be nerfed. My 407 scout and 334 scout still get multiple encounters down south. Dont base nerfing this on players opinions traveling in the northern triangle. Psi(Pyro) - As Necro put, its very limited. And he just personally weakened it by posting its weaknesses. There are more weaknesses in terms of Pvp also Sam, but I will not post them here and if you want can PM them to you. Engine Tuner. I have an engine tuner 8, but have never used her...bummer! I think its common knowledge in Evan that Longo is no racer...haha Sniper - Its the most powerful spec in the game. Be careful tweaking this one. Last time you changed this, it was substantial. My "uber" gangers, some of the best in the game, were slaughtered in the Badlands because not only was I outnumbered substantially, but they could hit me before I could them. Joel Autobaun said: Notice a few things here sam.  Every skill that is useful in pvp is getting complained about.  Very few pve skill which are over powered (negotiator...mindcontrol) ever get complained about.  You infact are having to nerf some skills because you didnt think people would obtain these skills and they wouldnt have except for the extremely soft...weak carebear environment created by the incessant whining of the pve crowd. Joel hits things spot on here. I have never played a game that had a level playing field in Pvp. There will always be people that are way better than others, whether it be because they play 24/7, just have better eye/hand coordination, good strategy etc. Look at COD...I used to buy it for Xbox and play the first week, then quit. I was pretty fair matched that first week, but after that, all of the super nerds had found all of the good "spots", memorized all of the maps, and figured out the best gun combos. This "problem" is nothing new to online gaming...
*goat starer* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 8:45 pm	that is incorrect... every skill that allows a vet to make PVP impossible and unpalatable for newer players is up for consideration. When the likes of joel says they want PVP they mean they want a line of people to slaughter. If you want PVP to take off.. nerf the crazy specs, the game killers - these are the thing that prevents PVP and anyone who REALLY wants PVP in this game should be championing anything that nerfs the specs Joel wants. anyone who has watched Joel pyro an entire event out in 10 turns knows its true.
musashi_san Posted Jul 11, 2014, 8:48 pm	FireFly said: To be fair, I'm not sure I've seen offensive driver used effectively ever... Does it work in regular races? Only place I see it having any value. yeah it works in races, and i've been on the giving and receiving end both. snipe really f'ed up my engine one time with one hit, kinda catastrophic in a pure race... also effective for drivers of tt's or fe's or other large things, i typically have a dedicated driver, and a reram, why not take od?
Bolt Thrower Posted Jul 11, 2014, 8:57 pm	Dammit, if you fix this, that means I never have a chance at some of those records. *sam* said: Joel Autobaun said: I dont understand how engine tuning or negotiator makes the list...yet rapid shot is not there. I am very worried about who you are getting your info from sam.  I think its the wrong people. I am planning to modify rapidshot a bit, yes. At high specs and without any kind of soft cap, engine tuner is *massively* overpowered, I can guarantee you that. Not from people but from code.
Bolt Thrower Posted Jul 11, 2014, 9:04 pm	Honestly, if someone put 10 specs into rapid shot, they should get to shoot twice each round and three times on Sunday. *sam* said: Necrotech said: Rapidshot - Seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that it is on a per level basis - Lvl 1 = 10% Lvl 2 = 20% etc. max @ Lvl 3 @ 30% That's about right in terms of effect yes.. you're saying a level 10 should have 100% chance of shooting twice on each round? Quote: Engine Tuner - Don't see that an issue with that as it stands, I see more gain at the moment from Chrome motors than Engine Tuner. You can't be basing that on any knowledge of high-spec engine tuner then, because right now at high levels it's far more potent than Chromed-engines.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 9:09 pm	Bolt Thrower said: Honestly, if someone put 10 specs into rapid shot, they should get to shoot twice each round and three times on Sunday. *sam* said: Necrotech said: Rapidshot - Seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that it is on a per level basis - Lvl 1 = 10% Lvl 2 = 20% etc. max @ Lvl 3 @ 30% That's about right in terms of effect yes.. you're saying a level 10 should have 100% chance of shooting twice on each round? Quote: Engine Tuner - Don't see that an issue with that as it stands, I see more gain at the moment from Chrome motors than Engine Tuner. You can't be basing that on any knowledge of high-spec engine tuner then, because right now at high levels it's far more potent than Chromed-engines. there has to be a firing rate limit for weapons... otherwise the spec is ludicrous
Bolt Thrower Posted Jul 11, 2014, 9:15 pm	Yeah, ammo capacity, and recoil bounce.  That is 8 specs not in something to hit me more easily.  But I get slaughtered all the time.  People with a more nuanced view of PVP most likely know better. goat starer said: Bolt Thrower said: Honestly, if someone put 10 specs into rapid shot, they should get to shoot twice each round and three times on Sunday. *sam* said: Necrotech said: Rapidshot - Seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that it is on a per level basis - Lvl 1 = 10% Lvl 2 = 20% etc. max @ Lvl 3 @ 30% That's about right in terms of effect yes.. you're saying a level 10 should have 100% chance of shooting twice on each round? Quote: Engine Tuner - Don't see that an issue with that as it stands, I see more gain at the moment from Chrome motors than Engine Tuner. You can't be basing that on any knowledge of high-spec engine tuner then, because right now at high levels it's far more potent than Chromed-engines. there has to be a firing rate limit for weapons... otherwise the spec is ludicrous
*goat starer* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 9:25 pm	Bolt Thrower said: Yeah, ammo capacity, and recoil bounce.  That is 8 specs not in something to hit me more easily.  But I get slaughtered all the time.  People with a more nuanced view of PVP most likely know better. goat starer said: Bolt Thrower said: Honestly, if someone put 10 specs into rapid shot, they should get to shoot twice each round and three times on Sunday. *sam* said: Necrotech said: Rapidshot - Seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that it is on a per level basis - Lvl 1 = 10% Lvl 2 = 20% etc. max @ Lvl 3 @ 30% That's about right in terms of effect yes.. you're saying a level 10 should have 100% chance of shooting twice on each round? Quote: Engine Tuner - Don't see that an issue with that as it stands, I see more gain at the moment from Chrome motors than Engine Tuner. You can't be basing that on any knowledge of high-spec engine tuner then, because right now at high levels it's far more potent than Chromed-engines. there has to be a firing rate limit for weapons... otherwise the spec is ludicrous a simple question of time... not other effects
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 11, 2014, 10:17 pm	Jety said: In my experience negotiator is a highly ineffective skill. I pretty much assume it won't work ever. Hearing that it's over-powered makes me scratch my head in confusion. Maybe I just never had a Neg 5...? My Neg 5 often is unable to truce with NEUTRAL gangs (privateers, mutants seem the common Neutrals who won't truce at Neg 5) It worked before the last "fix" when people complained about safe lorry travels. After the adjustment it stopped working at all for me (and the safe lorry travels were not affected since they still truce at Liked or better even with an untrained scout)
FireFly Posted Jul 11, 2014, 10:25 pm	Maybe if people started using moving defensive bonuses instead of sitting still (like the AI does) and stopped relying on rear weaponry "For safety" (Large penalty for rear weapons) they MIGHT not feel the need to (ab)use the sniper spec to be able to hit the enemy first. Vets also use cannons a lot, guess what? Cannons are short range weapons, cannons have a MUCH shorter range than HMG's and Rockets. The fact that a lot of vets think they should be outshooting the AI MG's/Rockets down south with CANNONS without breaking a sweat, while doing above for further penalties is total lunacy. People got used to being babied by the sniper spec and became bad players because of it, I never had a problem when it was nerfed because I primarily mounted and fight with front weapons even back then. And no Longo this is not at you specifically but people who rely on sniper in general. I'm not sure if you always play like that but a vast majority of vets who rely on sniper do so I'm assuming this is why you had issues when it got nerfed last time. Anyway, You don't "Need" it to be able to fight efficiently. And I agree with the others before, restrict "Sniper" to Rifle type guns. Edit; Oh, of course vets are going to be heavily outnumbered down south, It's not like the AI is rolling in crowds of 350CR buzzers is it? (Cannons have a LOT of CR to boot)
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 11, 2014, 10:31 pm	Joel Autobaun said: I dont understand how engine tuning or negotiator makes the list...yet rapid shot is not there. I am very worried about who you are getting your info from sam.  I think its the wrong people. I mostly agree with Joel here. Except that Rapid Shot doesn't feel OP to me EXCEPT for one factor: the additional shots using RS should have a lower accuracy than the first shot RS 3 is the point at which the chance if a multishot becomes quite likely (seems 3 out of 4 shots will be multi at that level) Many pen and paper RPGs allow additional attacks at an increasing negative modifier to hit/damage. While this is a good idea it runs into the issue that we do not control when the multi occurs and some players may not want to punch out double shots if the second has a high likelihood of failure
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 11, 2014, 10:39 pm	*sam* said: Joel Autobaun said: I dont understand how engine tuning or negotiator makes the list...yet rapid shot is not there. I am very worried about who you are getting your info from sam.  I think its the wrong people. I am planning to modify rapidshot a bit, yes. At high specs and without any kind of soft cap, engine tuner is *massively* overpowered, I can guarantee you that. Not from people but from code. Slipstream has a greater impact on racing (for me) than engine tuner ever did. I have never noticed any benefit to engine tuner for my people. Maybe this is because League Races (which carry good prizes) use stock cars where ET has no effect. And yet Slipstream DOES. Maybe if the Leagues were expanded to include a Noobs league with 60 or less in driver skills but stock cars. And then an advanced league where you supply your own but prizes are more significant But a good fix would also be to put in an Evan Autoduel Association regulation saying only the driver can tune his or her car. In this way the stacked spec bonus would require the Uber driver to also train their mech skill to get an ET benefit
Necrotech Posted Jul 11, 2014, 10:42 pm	FireFly said: Cannons are short range weapons, cannons have a MUCH shorter range than HMG's and Rockets. Maybe if you were talking ATG's.. yes Those are short range weapons, CC... I would say on par with HMG and superior to Rocket Launchers. Draw back, kicks like a mule on most chassis types.
*K1500* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 10:49 pm	Okay I'll throw my 2c worth in here. Sniper: It's certainly the spec which defines large portions of the game. Increasing the range at which you can hit at seems to be one of the key features which allows you to move into the more dangerous areas of Evan. Having said that, applying it to all weapons does seem to be a problem. What I would like to see would be sniper apply specifically to CR/HCR BUT the other weapon specs (ROC, HVY, MGs, etc) to have a better increase of range with each level of their specs. This would mean that people still get to improve the range they hit at, but your gangers end up more specialised in particular weapon types. This would also encourage players to have certain builds of vehicles to suit their gangers, as opposed to simply what build has the best weapons (if that makes sense). I can see particular gangs being known for using certain types of weapons - "Oh no it's NECRO - get ready for a storm of ROCKETS!!" (not say you use rockets lots Necro, just using your name for the example!) To me this would be the main change I'd love to see - it makes sense (to me) that as characters get more skilled they can hit at greater range, but I think as gangers get more skilled this should be coming from them specialising in particular weapon types (instead of specialising at long range fire). The other option would be to have SNP accuracy actually reduce more once the enemy got within a certain range! Sure he can hit guys at 150m but once they're within 50m he just has troubles keeping them down the barrel :-) Engine Tuning: I currently don't have any ET guys, but did have an ET4 guy and noticed a significant difference in how my vehicles performed when he was in town. At level 1 & 2 I didn't notice much difference. Level 3 was noticeable and when I hit level 4 I was surprised how noticeable it was. Diminishing returns for the spec seems to be the way to go. Rapid Shot: I think at levels 1 & 2 it is about right - haven't had anyone above that level though. The thing with rapid shot is that there are many things you have to account for - ammo consumption and recoil in particular. I've had twin CC buzzers and BPU's get rapid shots off and the recoil has thrown them round for multiple turns, effectively taking them out of the fight until I could get the recoil under control. It's a powerful spec but with certain weapons you need to know how to manage it. Psi: I really can't comment on this as I've never had a Psi spec. In particular with "Burn" do I think it's powerful? Yes. Do I recognise that people have to work really hard to get it? Yes. Is it really powerful in PvP? Yes. Yes I did loose two of my best guys to Longo with an instant explode in the recent CoE2. I was kinda pissed about the instant explode (not getting a chance to escape) but it was my own fault that I got into that situation to start with - I should have stayed back, taken high ground and continued to hammer him with my SNP5/RS1 on the HCR. I just wanted to make it clear that MY recent experience with Psi in CoE2 was my own fault - what annoyed me was the instant explode, not the use of the "burn" power. Longo baited the trap and I walked into it. Negotiator: I have a NEG5 guy and he often gets returns when scouting - but this could have more to do with my faction standings and where he is scouting. Also could have something to do with him being a heavy Zerk user (hard to negotiate when you're foaming at the mouth and screaming profanities!).  I'm assuming that any significant changes will come with the chance to respec. K [Oh and cheers Sam for the ongoing tweaks, changes and upgrades you've put in recently, your patience with us is impressive! I may not agree with all the changes but I do appreciate the work that you've put in.]
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 11, 2014, 10:50 pm	SmokeyKilla said: Gangers already die to easily......I dont believe any specs should be nerfed.  Even if someone does get a 10 +spec character how long is he gonna last?  The only skill that should be modified is sniper and it should be be done by weapon type, bally, mgs, heavy, rockets and hand guns. I have a couple 16 spec characters. They lasted well over a real year until I retired them as camp mechanics (due to high or capped mech skills more than due to age or weakness) An established vet with toys and money can keep a high skill ganger alive fairly well if they don't get too crazy with trying unusual tactics or builds. Sometimes random bad things happen, but high spec gangers do exist.
FireFly Posted Jul 11, 2014, 10:57 pm	Necrotech said: FireFly said: Cannons are short range weapons, cannons have a MUCH shorter range than HMG's and Rockets. Maybe if you were talking ATG's.. yes Those are short range weapons, CC... I would say on par with HMG and superior to Rocket Launchers. Necro we might not get along well but I'd like to give you more credit than this. 1. Rocket launchers have superior range to both HMG's and Cannons, if you'd asked Joel about it he could have told you. In fact, Sam has told people this repeatedly when they complain about the RL. It needs a lot of targeting time and is susceptible to moving targets, but it's got by far one of the longest ranges in the game in it's own element. 2. Give a rookie a cannon, give a rookie an HMG, compare at what range they'll start hitting reliably. 3. The ATG used to be worse than the CC but this was changed 2-3 years ago to be the same. This was something sam dropped in the passing iirc when in an event so might want to ask for confirmation. Admittedly I can be misremembering that last part, but I'm damned sure of the first two. Not starting anything, but the above are easily conformable facts.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 11, 2014, 11:21 pm	goat starer said: there has to be a firing rate limit for weapons The current rate of fire of 1 shot per in game second is already unrealistic from an ROF perspective.  Not to mention from a damage perspective. For example a 7.62mm MMG fires at roughly double the speed of a 12.7mm HMG. In real life an MMG has an armor penetrating factor of 12mm RHA at 500m and 0 degree obliqity  where the HMG has a penetration of 30mm.  The penetration rate corresponds with mass/velocity impact energy. As such, an MMG would do ad much "battering" damage to an ablative type armor such as ours, as an HMG. The only difference would be in penetration (blues sooner as armor degrades) The argument of limiting ROF to more realistic levels should also include limiting weapons to relative damage-over-time factors as well (basically making them all do pretty much the same damage)
*sam* Posted Jul 11, 2014, 11:31 pm	There seems to be some confusion over how negotiator works. - when you auto truce and the event doesn't even start, that is *not* negotiator. It is faction standing or else you met a trader and had auto truce set for traders. - negotiator applies only when you ask for a truce when in an actual event that has gone as far as actually starting up
*Marc5iver* marcgillespie55@gmail.com Posted Jul 11, 2014, 11:52 pm	*sam* said: There seems to be some confusion over how negotiator works. - when you auto truce and the event doesn't even start, that is *not* negotiator.  It is faction standing or else you met a trader and had auto truce set for traders. - negotiator applies only when you ask for a truce when in an actual event that has gone as far as actually starting up Does NEG have any effect as to whether or not you will even have an encounter? 55555
Necrotech Posted Jul 11, 2014, 11:53 pm	FireFly said: Necrotech said: FireFly said: Cannons are short range weapons, cannons have a MUCH shorter range than HMG's and Rockets. Maybe if you were talking ATG's.. yes Those are short range weapons, CC... I would say on par with HMG and superior to Rocket Launchers. Necro we might not get along well but I'd like to give you more credit than this. 1. Rocket launchers have superior range to both HMG's and Cannons, if you'd asked Joel about it he could have told you. In fact, Sam has told people this repeatedly when they complain about the RL. It needs a lot of targeting time and is susceptible to moving targets, but it's got by far one of the longest ranges in the game in it's own element. 2. Give a rookie a cannon, give a rookie an HMG, compare at what range they'll start hitting reliably. 3. The ATG used to be worse than the CC but this was changed 2-3 years ago to be the same. This was something sam dropped in the passing iirc when in an event so might want to ask for confirmation. Admittedly I can be misremembering that last part, but I'm damned sure of the first two. Not starting anything, but the above are easily conformable facts. Maybe with RL I can see that If you give a new ganger one of each weapon HMG vs CC Yes, in the beginning your are very correct, However once you start getting above say, 100 skill... HMG starts losing the battle quickly at equal range. Flipside - HMG has more ammo to throw around.. But an equally spec'd Mg2 with say SNP 1 vs Hvy 2 Snp1...  CC wins no question. As for ATG anything over 80 meters is suspect, where the CC is near automatic up to 120m with an equal ganger. There is a huge disparity in accuracy between the two weapons
FireFly Posted Jul 12, 2014, 12:16 am	Actually, cannons benefit more from sniper than HMG's do iirc, that's why you see it "level out". Also, remember that you should be comparing a machinegunner to a heavy weapons guy... Here's the thing, everyone has heavy weapons (cannon) speccers but nobody has a lot of machinegunners. I betcha a 100 skill MG2 would beat out a HW2 on a CC, no sniper involved. As for ATG vs. CC, I'm still quite sure I remember correctly there. If we are being logical about it here, unless sam has coded it in some really twisted way the CC should not be able to overtake the HMG, higher base stats should natrually stay higher given growth in the same areas. The CC might win a damage output game, but the HMG is going to have more range and accuarcy at longer ranges, that's without doubt.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 12:17 am	i dont think its 100 skill that a HMG starts winning... i think its sniper 2 rapid reload 1
Joel Autobaun Posted Jul 12, 2014, 12:41 am	goat starer said: that is incorrect... every skill that allows a vet to make PVP impossible and unpalatable for newer players is up for consideration. When the likes of joel says they want PVP they mean they want a line of people to slaughter. If you want PVP to take off.. nerf the crazy specs, the game killers - these are the thing that prevents PVP and anyone who REALLY wants PVP in this game should be championing anything that nerfs the specs Joel wants. anyone who has watched Joel pyro an entire event out in 10 turns knows its true. Remove psi, nerf every spec, make the game completely random with 50 skill maximums... I will still win.  I will find a way and the difference is... now there is no mercy.  I am so sick of everyones bull#### slander. Keep changing things change them because of things I EXACTLY WARNED ABOUT.  Lose players lose interest, I will remain to kill the rest. Joel Autobaun said: Nov21 2009!I have to say i'm concerned with the pyrokenesis power.  Setting a car on fire is a very very powerful skill. http://www.dark-wind.com/forums2/index.php?a=topic&t=10323&f=1&min=0&num=20
*goat starer* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 12:47 am	Joel Autobaun said: goat starer said: that is incorrect... every skill that allows a vet to make PVP impossible and unpalatable for newer players is up for consideration. When the likes of joel says they want PVP they mean they want a line of people to slaughter. If you want PVP to take off.. nerf the crazy specs, the game killers - these are the thing that prevents PVP and anyone who REALLY wants PVP in this game should be championing anything that nerfs the specs Joel wants. anyone who has watched Joel pyro an entire event out in 10 turns knows its true. Remove psi, nerf every spec, make the game completely random with 50 skill maximums... I will still win.  I will find a way and the difference is... now there is no mercy.  I am so sick of everyones bull#### slander. no.. just remove the things that give nobody else a chance and let you play the way you used to... clever you were one of the greatest players of the game.. you are now little short of a griefer. Think back to your roots joel. I think if you were still playing that way you would have a lot more respect for yourself, a lot less anger and a lot more respect from other players...  used to think of you as a bit of a legend... nowadays just a very very sad fellow. or just start swearing and threatening legal action... that will make you look very cool indeed.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jul 12, 2014, 12:54 am	goat starer said: Joel Autobaun said: goat starer said: that is incorrect... every skill that allows a vet to make PVP impossible and unpalatable for newer players is up for consideration. When the likes of joel says they want PVP they mean they want a line of people to slaughter. If you want PVP to take off.. nerf the crazy specs, the game killers - these are the thing that prevents PVP and anyone who REALLY wants PVP in this game should be championing anything that nerfs the specs Joel wants. anyone who has watched Joel pyro an entire event out in 10 turns knows its true. Remove psi, nerf every spec, make the game completely random with 50 skill maximums... I will still win.  I will find a way and the difference is... now there is no mercy.  I am so sick of everyones bull#### slander. no.. just remove the things that give nobody else a chance and let you play the way you used to... clever you were one of the greatest players of the game.. you are now little short of a griefer. Think back to your roots joel. I think if you were still playing that way you would have a lot more respect for yourself, a lot less anger and a lot more respect from other players...  used to think of you as a bit of a legend... nowadays just a very very sad fellow. or just start swearing and threatening legal action... that will make you look very cool indeed. You've been allowed to run your mouth off at me for quite some time now with no punishment well... ENOUGH!  You are a random troll and i will fight you at every single turn - on the forum in the game and in the lobby EXPECT it BACK i will no longer ignore your CRAP. You are intellectually dishonest and I am sure i'm not the only one who would say that - you might be surprised how many people could really give a crap what you say it's so random and scav scav scav... commie commie commie mememe. You accuse me of the exact things YOU do!
*goat starer* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 12:59 am	Joel Autobaun said: goat starer said: Joel Autobaun said: goat starer said: that is incorrect... every skill that allows a vet to make PVP impossible and unpalatable for newer players is up for consideration. When the likes of joel says they want PVP they mean they want a line of people to slaughter. If you want PVP to take off.. nerf the crazy specs, the game killers - these are the thing that prevents PVP and anyone who REALLY wants PVP in this game should be championing anything that nerfs the specs Joel wants. anyone who has watched Joel pyro an entire event out in 10 turns knows its true. Remove psi, nerf every spec, make the game completely random with 50 skill maximums... I will still win.  I will find a way and the difference is... now there is no mercy.  I am so sick of everyones bull#### slander. no.. just remove the things that give nobody else a chance and let you play the way you used to... clever you were one of the greatest players of the game.. you are now little short of a griefer. Think back to your roots joel. I think if you were still playing that way you would have a lot more respect for yourself, a lot less anger and a lot more respect from other players...  used to think of you as a bit of a legend... nowadays just a very very sad fellow. or just start swearing and threatening legal action... that will make you look very cool indeed. You've been allowed to run your mouth off at me for quite some time now with no punishment well... ENOUGH!  You are a random troll and i will fight you at every single turn - on the forum in the game and in the lobby EXPECT it BACK i will no longer ignore your CRAP. You are intellectually dishonest and I am sure i'm not the only one who would say that - you might be surprised how many people could really give a crap what you say it's so random and scav scav scav... commie commie commie mememe. You accuse me of the exact things YOU do! no joel... i have maintained very consistent points of view over a very long time.. you however got bored.. and intead of moving on tried to engineer a game where you could act as a little hitler of the races. sit back, take a chill pill and make some useful contributions. You know what works and what doesnt in the game. You have used much of what doesnt. Use your experience to make it better rather than just using it make you feel a tiny bit better every time you win a league.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jul 12, 2014, 1:03 am	And you have managed to split this small community - complicated every single thing Sam does and constantly cause trouble on the forums with numerous people I am sick of you!
*goat starer* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 1:23 am	Joel Autobaun said: And you have managed to split this small community - complicated every single thing Sam does and constantly cause trouble on the forums with numerous people I am sick of you! one acronym EAA introduced because of your behaviour... made the whole game #### and get a grip.. you vacillate between saying scav is a sideshow played by three people and scav split the community... which is it?
Joel Autobaun Posted Jul 12, 2014, 1:28 am	goat starer said: Joel Autobaun said: And you have managed to split this small community - complicated every single thing Sam does and constantly cause trouble on the forums with numerous people I am sick of you! one acronym EAA introduced because of your behaviour... made the whole game #### and get a grip.. you vacillate between saying scav is a sideshow played by three people and scav split the community... which is it? What made the whole game ###?  EAA or my behavior? Scav is a waste of time for sam, for you, for anyone playing it.  I doubt I will be proven wrong in the end on that.
*The X Man* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 1:34 am	Come on you two. Save this for the arena. Please keep this thread on topic, not throwing rocks at each other. It is important to resolve these specialisms before the Steam Relaunch. So, if further posts cannot be made in a positive manner regarding this thread, I will lock it until I can contact Sam or he unlocks it himself. Thank You in advance for your cooperation.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jul 12, 2014, 1:35 am	*The X Man* said: Come on you two. Save this for the arena. Please keep this thread on topic, not throwing rocks at each other. It is important to resolve these specialisms before the Steam Relaunch. So, if further posts cannot be made in a positive manner regarding this thread, I will lock it until I can contact Sam or he unlocks it himself. Thank You in advance for your cooperation. Lock it then.  Oh let Goat run his mouth too, why not.
*The X Man* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 1:38 am	I am just trying to get things civil and back on topic. I am not picking sides or pointing fingers.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jul 12, 2014, 1:46 am	*The X Man* said: I am just trying to get things civil and back on topic. I am not picking sides or pointing fingers. Its ridiculous he should have a forum ban he does this with someone at least every month.
Bolt Thrower Posted Jul 12, 2014, 1:52 am	Been drinking so pardon misspelling or incoherency. Like Juan, the hate directed at Joel seems largely historical.  Yes I know he has and does grief some people for slights real or imagined.  I think to some degree it is frustration with people not listening, when he is right, much like Juan.  And it is done within the rules of the game. No, I don't like the COE rigging.  That is the only thing I have had to deal with.  But any interactions I have had with Joel have been educational, even when unpleasant.  He hasn't done anything I feel would be considered griefing to me.  I realize that could change if I annoy him.  I have read the forums.  It is one of the reasons I wouldn't even consider taking my camp PVP open.  I am probably beneath notice, but why take the chance. But PVP is not inherently fair.  It is why I scout and travel carefully.  I am not fighting stupid battles.  Ask Snipe, if you want to shoot me, you have to catch me.  Snipe is the primary reason I am not using pickups for couriers anymore.  The one time Joel intercepted me was a heartstopping moment.  If you pvp, realize there are giants out there.  Stuff should not be nerfed because people are utilizing it to full advantage.  If it is truly unbalanced, then yes.  Psi is not unbalanced for the most part.  But the instant explosion K suffered in COE was a bit much.  You are already guaranteed to lose car and engine.  Auto losing gangers seems excessive.  But that is not a PVP issue, that is a " nothing else in the game can do that" issue. goat starer said: Joel Autobaun said: goat starer said: that is incorrect... every skill that allows a vet to make PVP impossible and unpalatable for newer players is up for consideration. When the likes of joel says they want PVP they mean they want a line of people to slaughter. If you want PVP to take off.. nerf the crazy specs, the game killers - these are the thing that prevents PVP and anyone who REALLY wants PVP in this game should be championing anything that nerfs the specs Joel wants. anyone who has watched Joel pyro an entire event out in 10 turns knows its true. Remove psi, nerf every spec, make the game completely random with 50 skill maximums... I will still win.  I will find a way and the difference is... now there is no mercy.  I am so sick of everyones bull#### slander. no.. just remove the things that give nobody else a chance and let you play the way you used to... clever you were one of the greatest players of the game.. you are now little short of a griefer. Think back to your roots joel. I think if you were still playing that way you would have a lot more respect for yourself, a lot less anger and a lot more respect from other players...  used to think of you as a bit of a legend... nowadays just a very very sad fellow. or just start swearing and threatening legal action... that will make you look very cool indeed.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 1:53 am	Joel Autobaun said: goat starer said: Joel Autobaun said: And you have managed to split this small community - complicated every single thing Sam does and constantly cause trouble on the forums with numerous people I am sick of you! one acronym EAA introduced because of your behaviour... made the whole game #### and get a grip.. you vacillate between saying scav is a sideshow played by three people and scav split the community... which is it? What made the whole game ###?  EAA or my behavior? Scav is a waste of time for sam, for you, for anyone playing it.  I doubt I will be proven wrong in the end on that. your behaviour made EAA which made most of the things you object to now. scav has had no changes for at least 12 months... must be a real drain. its not  waste of time for me because i enjoy it and i scout with people who do too. you need to start enjoying your game and worrying less about other peoples
*The X Man* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 1:53 am	There is a forum ban in place, but the Marshals do not have the power to use it. As of now, the forum offender gets reported to Sam and he alone disciplines the player.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 1:57 am	Bolt Thrower said: Been drinking so pardon misspelling or incoherency. Like Juan, the hate directed at Joel seems largely historical.  Y i dont hate joel.. i think his play style is really interesting. you need him and darth to keep it interesting. I do think he regularly steps over a griefing and exploiting line whilst pushing the game and i think he is alway entirely self interested to the detriment of the game... but people generally ignore the excess or RP it so its cool. He has a problem with other players..  and he goes out of his way to object to their play... but that's just Joel.. we love him.. like a prodigal son... i bet he is bloody lovely of you meet him in person.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jul 12, 2014, 2:02 am	goat starer said: Joel Autobaun said: goat starer said: Joel Autobaun said: And you have managed to split this small community - complicated every single thing Sam does and constantly cause trouble on the forums with numerous people I am sick of you! one acronym EAA introduced because of your behaviour... made the whole game #### and get a grip.. you vacillate between saying scav is a sideshow played by three people and scav split the community... which is it? What made the whole game ###?  EAA or my behavior? Scav is a waste of time for sam, for you, for anyone playing it.  I doubt I will be proven wrong in the end on that. your behaviour made EAA which made most of the things you object to now. scav has had no changes for at least 12 months... must be a real drain. its not  waste of time for me because i enjoy it and i scout with people who do too. you need to start enjoying your game and worrying less about other peoples And EAA made it so no PSI/handgun shooting in Events in the northern Triangle.... the downside is?
*goat starer* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 2:15 am	Joel Autobaun said: goat starer said: Joel Autobaun said: goat starer said: Joel Autobaun said: And you have managed to split this small community - complicated every single thing Sam does and constantly cause trouble on the forums with numerous people I am sick of you! one acronym EAA introduced because of your behaviour... made the whole game #### and get a grip.. you vacillate between saying scav is a sideshow played by three people and scav split the community... which is it? What made the whole game ###?  EAA or my behavior? Scav is a waste of time for sam, for you, for anyone playing it.  I doubt I will be proven wrong in the end on that. your behaviour made EAA which made most of the things you object to now. scav has had no changes for at least 12 months... must be a real drain. its not  waste of time for me because i enjoy it and i scout with people who do too. you need to start enjoying your game and worrying less about other peoples And EAA made it so no PSI/handgun shooting in Events in the northern Triangle.... the downside is? it made every northern event predictable and boring... it stopped you being interesting.. it made racing a drag. are you saying you did it on purpose to protect the community from you?
Joel Autobaun Posted Jul 12, 2014, 2:23 am	ok... EAA makes it predicable and boring by taking away the ability to do things based on my behavior? My behavior was using handguns in a death race. Is that cheap ..only when I do it? lmao I think you just proved your intellectual dishonestly there.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 12, 2014, 3:14 am	Query: has the spec discussion turned from something Goat wants to something he is against, which incited him to derail the forum? Joel being the easiest to suck into an argument capable of causing a lock? Just seems a bit strange...
Joel Autobaun Posted Jul 12, 2014, 3:20 am	Not strange. Random.
Grimm Sykes Posted Jul 12, 2014, 7:21 am	I would like to make 1 simple suggestion... allow skill level to benefit range a tad more then it does, and change the effect of sniper entirely. Let sniper do for car weapons what car killer does for ped weapons, and not have sniper affect ranges at all. i got a good idea for respeccing too, once i figure out a good way to impliment it, i'll post it
*goat starer* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 8:19 am	StCrispin said: Query: has the spec discussion turned from something Goat wants to something he is against, which incited him to derail the forum?  Joel being the easiest to suck into an argument capable of causing a lock? Just seems a bit strange... What am I supposed to be against?
Necrotech Posted Jul 12, 2014, 8:21 am	goat starer said: StCrispin said: Query: has the spec discussion turned from something Goat wants to something he is against, which incited him to derail the forum?  Joel being the easiest to suck into an argument capable of causing a lock? Just seems a bit strange... What am I supposed to be against? In this case... Staying on Topic
*goat starer* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 8:31 am	Necrotech said: goat starer said: StCrispin said: Query: has the spec discussion turned from something Goat wants to something he is against, which incited him to derail the forum?  Joel being the easiest to suck into an argument capable of causing a lock? Just seems a bit strange... What am I supposed to be against? In this case... Staying on Topic I'm always against that. Conversation should be wide ranging a broad to get the most from it. That said pointing out the craziness of people's positions based on their past actions and it's results is hardly off topic.
Necrotech Posted Jul 12, 2014, 8:39 am	goat starer said: Necrotech said: goat starer said: StCrispin said: Query: has the spec discussion turned from something Goat wants to something he is against, which incited him to derail the forum?  Joel being the easiest to suck into an argument capable of causing a lock? Just seems a bit strange... What am I supposed to be against? In this case... Staying on Topic I'm always against that. Conversation should be wide ranging a broad to get the most from it. That said pointing out the craziness of people's positions based on their past actions and it's results is hardly off topic. If you were on topic, the Title thread would have be "Overpowered and Underhanded Tactics" Seriously though, while sometimes I do see your point, hell may even have sound intentions and ideas. Your delivery to people for the most part is like rolling a live hand grenade into a room, just so you can see which way the furniture will land.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 8:58 am	Who said anything about underhand tactics? I am now very confused... Once more Alley paranoia leads to Joel flying off the handle and you being weird. This is a discussion about overpowered specs. There is particular issue of overpowered specs in pvp,, I didn't raise that or the specific spec pyro. I merely commented on them. If you think this thread is derailed I suggest you look for the person who did that a little closer to home. Try 12.41... I retread this thread in its entirety this morning to check that it wasn't me who stared swearing, accusing people of slander, threatening to destroy everybody left, demanding forum bans etc... Guess what? It wasnt... I was talking about specs as per the topic. Have a go at reading it yourself.
Necrotech Posted Jul 12, 2014, 9:19 am	goat starer said: Who said anything about underhand tactics? I am now very confused... Once more Alley paranoia leads to Joel flying off the handle and you being weird. This is a discussion about overpowered specs. There is particular issue of overpowered specs in pvp,, I didn't raise that or the specific spec pyro. I merely commented on them. If you think this thread is derailed I suggest you look for the person who did that a little closer to home. Try 12.41... I retread this thread in its entirety this morning to check that it wasn't me who stared swearing, accusing people of slander, threatening to destroy everybody left, demanding forum bans etc... Guess what? It wasnt... I was talking about specs as per the topic. Have a go at reading it yourself. Apologies... reading back through... I found the beginning of the errant thread. This one is on me, Goat  , again my apologies.
*sam* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 10:24 am	*Marc5iver* said: *sam* said: There seems to be some confusion over how negotiator works. - when you auto truce and the event doesn't even start, that is *not* negotiator.  It is faction standing or else you met a trader and had auto truce set for traders. - negotiator applies only when you ask for a truce when in an actual event that has gone as far as actually starting up Does NEG have any effect as to whether or not you will even have an encounter? 55555 No, it doesn't.  That was my point :-)
*Bastille* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 2:52 pm	Necrotech said: *sam* said: In terms of psionics, 'Burn' seems to be the one that gets complained about... are there any others that are too powerful? Pyro is very limited for many reason.. and Psi skill are in general. Here are my reasonings 1 - To recruit or get a Psonically endowed character... The odds to receive are ridiculous. 2 - To train them is exceedingly slow, therefore adding addition age, and not being to train other skills generally. If a human, the age/mileage factor is even worse as the years of drug use wear a character. By time they even useful in most cases, they are almost dead to begin with. If a mutant, the above drawback is exponentially so. Does this really balance out that you can have a guy that can burn cars at will? No way man, no way. Quote: 3 - Pyro range is less than 50m, barring terrain.. is an incredibly short distance. Most people only get caught by this is because they are unaware that a pyro is in the vehicle in the first place. In this case, trying to be objective, and having been on both receiving and now giving end. When I didn't have a psi, it took me a couple times and learned to be wary and adjust for them. This also included doing homework on the opponents rank and file. Studying my opponents allows for me to prepare for them properly. Now that I have a few functioning psi's.. They do help, but only in certain venues and situations. If opponents are not prepared for them, or if a surprise attack (Last week's COE's were a perfect example those instances), how is that any different than fielding mounted mortars, or rolling a TT covered in Tank guns? I believe, in my opinion, the reason that people complain about Psi's is that they mostly unfamiliar with them due to extreme rarity, and then one gets sprung on them, the sky begins to fall. In their mind it is a fairness issue, where in reality it is a preparedness issue, or lack thereof. Some may never get a Psi, this is true.. but aligning with certain factions, having high reputations in certain places, I believe, give more of a chance to get them, While the drawback being most likely you are hunted mercilessly everywhere by "normal" factions. Pyro is way too powerful and should be hard capped at level 2 if not more nerfs applied. I should not be able to chose to kill 3+ cars per event (and often within 3 turns, with no option for the target to escape). It has limits, but they do not balance out. I can almost always chose to burn 3 targets to death (car explodes in 3 turns) every encounter. I don't agree that pyro is ok. I use it PvE. One Muscle car with 1 psi (100CR if that) can do the same damage in a scout as an FE with Tank guns (whats that, 600CR?). Yes in PvP this could be countered for by good tactics and player knowledge but that does not change the fact that Pyro is way too powerful in this game. Defensive energy is too powerful. I can block any damage for many turns. Tinker has demonstrated very well in PvP that EMP is too powerful and has too great a range. Mind control, Ive never managed to succesfully use Terror ( I believe this used to be very powerful), but the ability to force the opponent to forget you is too easy to use and almost always works, even at minimal effort. Telekinesis, Not too powerful I don't think, not sure. Throw was dulled back a bit and now it doesn't seem as powerful as the others. Dust storm is a useful, targatable, HSS shot. Before I had DE I used this to effect. Now I have DE and can stop an arsenal for 5(?) turns I don't use tele much (cept for the fun of it).
Grimm Sykes Posted Jul 12, 2014, 3:54 pm	P:yro 5 at about 5 meters away, at 100% power caused an immediate explosion for me. Though i enjoyed doing it, I'll admit that is too powerful. and EMP shouldn't affect submachine guns and rifles, but it does, so to me thats broken so i avoided assigning that spec to anyone
*Boonwolf* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 4:14 pm	If you cant stand the heat stay away from the pyro. calling for a blanket nerf on what maybe 10-20 gangers in total seems a little childish. just a though rather than cry about it hunt them down and kill them. I'll even bounty 100K per pyro spec. It has taken me 6 months to reach PSI 60 explain how this is potential for overpowered exploitable skilling?
*Boonwolf* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 4:15 pm	Grimm Sykes said: P:yro 5 at about 5 meters away, at 100% power caused an immediate explosion for me. Though i enjoyed doing it, I'll admit that is too powerful. and EMP shouldn't affect submachine guns and rifles, but it does, so to me thats broken so i avoided assigning that spec to anyone   You don't even have a PSI ganger!
Grimm Sykes Posted Jul 12, 2014, 5:32 pm	Boonwolf said: Grimm Sykes said: P:yro 5 at about 5 meters away, at 100% power caused an immediate explosion for me. Though i enjoyed doing it, I'll admit that is too powerful. and EMP shouldn't affect submachine guns and rifles, but it does, so to me thats broken so i avoided assigning that spec to anyone   You don't even have a PSI ganger! I've had many PSI's in the past and have used NPC PSI powers while scouting from camp with the NPC's that are pooled at the camp. The pyro 6 is dead now, He got  tossed out at 60 MPH after he went unconscious. My driver wanted to toss him out sooner but was scared he would get set on fire in retaliation. I was sevrely breached, and tossing a ped out meant they suddenly stopped shooting at me and went after the unconscious ped, then after he died they kept shooting at him. Bought me enough time to get away. Is tossing peds out of your car as decoys, considered a exploit? Do I care if it is?
*Boonwolf* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 5:46 pm	AHHHH PSI PED EXPLOITE ^^^^ burn witch burn! just playing man its a last ditch move seldom works for me, but I guess 80-90 is to fast
*goat starer* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 8:06 pm	Grimm Sykes said: Boonwolf said: Grimm Sykes said: P:yro 5 at about 5 meters away, at 100% power caused an immediate explosion for me. Though i enjoyed doing it, I'll admit that is too powerful. and EMP shouldn't affect submachine guns and rifles, but it does, so to me thats broken so i avoided assigning that spec to anyone   You don't even have a PSI ganger! I've had many PSI's in the past and have used NPC PSI powers while scouting from camp with the NPC's that are pooled at the camp. The pyro 6 is dead now, He got  tossed out at 60 MPH after he went unconscious. My driver wanted to toss him out sooner but was scared he would get set on fire in retaliation. I was sevrely breached, and tossing a ped out meant they suddenly stopped shooting at me and went after the unconscious ped, then after he died they kept shooting at him. Bought me enough time to get away. Is tossing peds out of your car as decoys, considered a exploit? Do I care if it is? Isn't it amazing how one off bugs always happen to you. Can you believe that the hall of fame makes no mention of this amazing 300+ psi A travesty I tell you... I would post it in bugs!
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 12, 2014, 8:55 pm	What bug? Hall of Fame is for gangers, not camp NPCs A 300+ Psi NPC showing up in the HOF would be the bug, not the lack of it showing up. Plus it would be cluttered with dead Roadkill Ninjas and 9 spec SS nicknames AI guys if it listed NPCs too
*goat starer* Posted Jul 12, 2014, 9:15 pm	StCrispin said: What bug? Hall of Fame is for gangers, not camp NPCs A 300+ Psi NPC showing up in the HOF would be the bug, not the lack of it showing up. Plus it would be cluttered with dead Roadkill Ninjas and 9 spec SS nicknames AI guys if it listed NPCs too There are 300+ psi npcs? How unusual.
*Bastille* Posted Jul 13, 2014, 1:57 am	Boonwolf said: If you cant stand the heat stay away from the pyro.  calling for a blanket nerf  on what maybe 10-20 gangers in total seems a little childish.  just a though rather than cry about it hunt them down and kill them.   I'll even bounty 100K per pyro spec.   It has taken me 6 months to reach PSI 60 explain how this is potential for overpowered exploitable skilling? Just because they are very rare does not mean that they are ridiculously overpowered. Just because it took you 6 months to train 1 psi does not mean that one cant be trained in 6 weeks.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 13, 2014, 2:45 am	goat starer said: StCrispin said: What bug? Hall of Fame is for gangers, not camp NPCs A 300+ Psi NPC showing up in the HOF would be the bug, not the lack of it showing up. Plus it would be cluttered with dead Roadkill Ninjas and 9 spec SS nicknames AI guys if it listed NPCs too There are 300+ psi npcs? How unusual. Not unusual. If you set a ganger's training to Psi... Say 3 or 4 years ago, haul them to camp, fire them, and then store them in a vehicle...  They often continue to train in the skill they were set to train (though slower, since camp training is lousy. Something like 1 point a week). Grimm has claimed this is an exploitable bug. But no one believed him(or they were exploiting it and didn't want it fixed) so it hasn't received any attention as far as I can tell. Luckily I brought to attention another bug Grimm was ostracized for reporting and now the exploitation of NPCs has been reduced to a level that Sam says is the intended level of use ( as only a gunner, and only in camp)
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 13, 2014, 2:48 am	Or train a ganger to 300+ then fire him in camp. That works too and is a faster method I train gangers to 75/75/50/50 in the 4 weapon skills, 4 spec them, then fire them in camp to use as skilled NPC gunners since I can only have 55 gangers and this isn't enough to run all the camps and towns I am in
*sam* Posted Jul 13, 2014, 4:15 am	Have you actually seen NPC gangers training in camp as Grimm claims, Crisp? NPC gangers actually don't receive weekly training at all. One change that is coming soon by the way is that over time NPCs in camp will gradually disperse.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 13, 2014, 4:53 am	I have seen them gain skill but I have yet to see an UNUSED NPC gain enough to show a skill bracket change (ie: skill listed as 20-40 or 40-60 moving to a new bracket. I don't let my NPCs stay unused so it's hard to say for sure. There are NPCs that have high skills in camps where the members claim not to use NPCs SAM: can we maybe "pamper" certain NPCs to make sure certain ones don't disperse? Some of mine were intentionally trained and fired under the belief that they would not leave till dead. Or alternately can I have my NPCs back as gangers since they were only fired due to not having a gang large enough to cover my camps while still being able to play the rest of the game? Maybe double food consumption and pay to reduce dispersion? How do NPCs end up with 180 to 230 skill (the ranges seen in that closed NPC exploit) and uninjured and age 45 to 52?
Grimm Sykes Posted Jul 13, 2014, 5:39 am	NPC's and non-premium players have been recieving weekly gains since before I started playing. I shouldn't need to provide examples, look at any NPC or non-premium gangs characters. Thats why I was confused when you had stated someplace that non-preium players would not recieve weekly training (as it has always been). Because I've never seen it that way, and I've commented on it numerous times since feb 2011. I've met some players who subbed for 3 months, set everyone to train, and walked away for a year or so, to come back and play once they have skilled up. then they resub and assign specs. I've seen all sorts of things that dont make sense any other way. Like a driver with 400 - 450 driver skill, and only 1 slipstream specialism applied. I can't believe they accumilated 350+ skill from only playing nonsubbbed.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 13, 2014, 6:30 am	Speaking of Non-Premium and training... When my first Sub ran out I DID gain training on my skills for AT LEAST 2 weeks that I remember distinctly. I thought that the first week was because the sub had maybe run out midweek and they got the training since I was subbed at the weeks beginning, the second week I couldn't explain. After that I didn't really look to see
*Boonwolf* Posted Jul 13, 2014, 8:41 am	*sam* said: Have you actually seen NPC gangers training in camp as Grimm claims, Crisp? NPC gangers actually don't receive weekly training at all. One change that is coming soon by the way is that over time NPCs in camp will gradually disperse.   Maybe give option to hire gangers form tavern using only NPCs that are located in the camp for 1 week so we can obtain gangers we contributed to the NPC Pool. On the topic of pooled items in camps is there a way another gang can use a pooled car with their crew and not have it drag the owner into the event if they are logged in?
*sam* Posted Jul 13, 2014, 11:01 am	FYI: I have blocked Joel and Goat from the forums for a few days for their behaviour in this thread.
JS Posted Jul 13, 2014, 12:34 pm	*sam* said: Have you actually seen NPC gangers training in camp as Grimm claims, Crisp? NPC gangers actually don't receive weekly training at all. One change that is coming soon by the way is that over time NPCs in camp will gradually disperse. Yay! I have been transporting them to the nearest town.
*sam* Posted Jul 13, 2014, 1:53 pm	Grimm Sykes said: NPC's and non-premium players have been recieving weekly gains since before I started playing. I shouldn't need to provide examples, look at any NPC or non-premium gangs characters. Thats why I was confused when you had stated someplace that non-preium players would not recieve weekly training (as it has always been). Because I've never seen it that way, and I've commented on it numerous times since feb 2011. I've seen all sorts of things that dont make sense any other way. Like a driver with 400 - 450 driver skill, and only 1 slipstream specialism applied. I can't believe they accumilated 350+ skill from only playing nonsubbbed. NPCs have not received weekly training since March 2010. This is mostly to avoid unnecessary server overhead during the training process. Instead, they get faster field training. High-fame NPC gangs also hire skilled characters. Non-subs, as far as I recall, have not received weekly training since about 2008. I didn't note the exact date. Quote: I've met some players who subbed for 3 months, set everyone to train, and walked away for a year or so, to come back and play once they have skilled up. then they resub and assign specs. I don't believe you.
FireFly Posted Jul 13, 2014, 2:20 pm	Quote: Charles May Character ID: 1286244 ... Driving    109 (102) Alt John Ford Character ID: 1286242     Driving    102 (97) I haven't been subbed for a while Sam, seems like it still works. That's why you had me confused on the subject in the bug thread the other day, I imagine most of us assumed you could still get non-training facility boosted weekly training. I'm a little sad that without a sub you become unable to train a psionic and medic properly since they barely field train at all, so does driving but not to as bad an extent.
*sam* Posted Jul 13, 2014, 2:25 pm	FireFly said: Quote: Charles May Character ID: 1286244 ... Driving    109 (102) Alt John Ford Character ID: 1286242     Driving    102 (97) I haven't been subbed for a while Sam, seems like it still works. That's why you had me confused on the subject in the bug thread the other day, most of us assumed you could still get non-training facility boosted weekly training. field training?
FireFly Posted Jul 13, 2014, 2:27 pm	*sam* said: FireFly said: Quote: Charles May Character ID: 1286244 ... Driving    109 (102) Alt John Ford Character ID: 1286242     Driving    102 (97) I haven't been subbed for a while Sam, seems like it still works. That's why you had me confused on the subject in the bug thread the other day, most of us assumed you could still get non-training facility boosted weekly training. field training? Oh no... Besides the point that Driver fields trains poorly, that's all weekly, you can double check with my (Very scarce) event log.
FireFly Posted Jul 13, 2014, 2:28 pm	Quote: Danny Smith Character ID: 619744     ... Psionics    143 (142) Better example, since Psionics don't field train. I would still argue that the inability to train skills like first aid and psi's at all would majorly suck. As for driver related skills, is it possible it can improve faster or gain combat bonuses? It really does improve slowly as compared to gunnery skills.
*sam* Posted Jul 13, 2014, 2:40 pm	The number in bracket updates at the time that training happens, so 142 to 143 was your last training, perhaps some time ago.
FireFly Posted Jul 13, 2014, 2:46 pm	*sam* said: The number in bracket updates at the time that training happens, so 142 to 143 was your last training, perhaps some time ago. The guy is deteriorating fast, shouldn't he have lost stats last "Yearly" update and have overridden that skill gain then? Might I suggest you set the brackets to update weekly even for non subs? It's pretty handy to keep track of field training to. Either way, that setup is VERY confusing and it becomes a total mess the way it is now, as I've quite clearly demonstrated I think  Edit; Hell, if you can list it as (+5) or (-12) that could be cool to.
Grimm Sykes Posted Jul 13, 2014, 3:01 pm	*sam* said: Grimm Sykes said: I've met some players who subbed for 3 months, set everyone to train, and walked away for a year or so, to come back and play once they have skilled up. then they resub and assign specs. I don't believe you. that's fine. this is something that I'm sure no one wants to see get fixed back in june 2010, right before i went to jail I hired a guy in badlands and set him to train in LG. My sub then ended in august. When i got out of jail in Feb 2011, I resubbed and he had just over 100 skill. So according to what your saying Sam... He gained that 80 skill sitting in badlands, unused, with no training center, and gained the  80 skill in about 10 weeks, before my sub ended. edit, changed it to 10 weeks, not 5, i forgot to include the month of july
*sam* Posted Jul 13, 2014, 3:07 pm	FireFly said: *sam* said: The number in bracket updates at the time that training happens, so 142 to 143 was your last training, perhaps some time ago. The guy is deteriorating fast, shouldn't he have lost stats last "Yearly" update and have overridden that skill gain then? Might I suggest you set the brackets to update weekly even for non subs? It's pretty handy to keep track of field training to. Either way, that setup is VERY confusing and it becomes a total mess the way it is now, as I've quite clearly demonstrated I think  Edit; Hell, if you can list it as (+5) or (-12) that could be cool to. The reason the brackets are only done for subs is that there are tens of thousands of non-subs and I didn't want to waste a load of server CPU on them. I guess it could be applied only if you have logged into the game in the last couple of weeks.
*Boonwolf* Posted Jul 13, 2014, 3:08 pm	Only one way to prove it unsub for 2 weeks per sam for monitoring.
Grimm Sykes Posted Jul 13, 2014, 3:10 pm	Nah someone else can prove it. I'm sick of being treated like a liar and having to prove everything.
*sam* Posted Jul 13, 2014, 3:13 pm	For a test, I just ran the database query that selects characters for training. (1) on my gang while it is subbed. It selected all characters. (2) on my gang while it is unsubbed. It selected no characters.
FireFly Posted Jul 13, 2014, 3:13 pm	*sam* said: The reason the brackets are only done for subs is that there are tens of thousands of non-subs and I didn't want to waste a load of server CPU on them. I guess it could be applied only if you have logged into the game in the last couple of weeks. That can work! It really does help in keeping track of gains, subbed or not! I still have to raise that question of field training, I do think there should be some way for people to raise their driving, first aid and similar skills in the field at a rate comparable to gunnery skills. The best way to train driver has always seemingly been town training and with first aid and Psi tis' practically the only option.
Grimm Sykes Posted Jul 13, 2014, 3:32 pm	*sam* said: For a test, I just ran the database query that selects characters for training. (1) on my gang while it is subbed. It selected all characters. (2) on my gang while it is unsubbed. It selected no characters. Well I know for a incontrovertible fact that I didn't log in while I was jail.
FireFly Posted Jul 13, 2014, 3:34 pm	For clarification on this... To my understanding driving training is based on distance traveled by a driver and/or driver skill checks done during the event, here-in lies the issue. The best way to finish any event is short and sweet, win as fast as possible. Training driving requires you to draw out an event and spend Significantly more time per even than to train shooting and mechanical skills. With time efficiency in mind when comes to training skills I find this abhorrent compared to other field skills. (not First aid or Psi) Driving takes longer to train simply by virtue of having to NOT finish the event fast to gain skills, whereas to train leadership/mechs/guns/etc you want to finish the event as fast as possible. Races also generally take longer than combats/scouts for a lower skill gain. Basically to train driving you're giving up time you could be using to train a multiple of other skills at once, it's extremely inefficient.
Fifth Posted Jul 13, 2014, 4:01 pm	FireFly said: For clarification on this... To my understanding driving training is based on distance traveled by a driver and/or driver skill checks done during the event, here-in lies the issue. The best way to finish any event is short and sweet, win as fast as possible. Training driving requires you to draw out an event and spend Significantly more time per even than to train shooting and mechanical skills. With time efficiency in mind when comes to training skills I find this abhorrent compared to other field skills. (not First aid or Psi) Driving takes longer to train simply by virtue of having to NOT finish the event fast to gain skills, whereas to train leadership/mechs/guns/etc you want to finish the event as fast as possible. Races also generally take longer than combats/scouts for a lower skill gain. Basically to train driving you're giving up time you could be using to train a multiple of other skills at once, it's extremely inefficient. I've had quite good results using newbie drivers as cargo-runners between towns, or driving muscle cars from BL to SS for sale. It's a good way to get a bunch of distance driving, but on something other than the racetrack.
Grimm Sykes Posted Jul 13, 2014, 4:01 pm	FireFly said: For clarification on this... To my understanding driving training is based on distance traveled by a driver and/or driver skill checks done during the event, here-in lies the issue. The best way to finish any event is short and sweet, win as fast as possible. Training driving requires you to draw out an event and spend Significantly more time per even than to train shooting and mechanical skills. With time efficiency in mind when comes to training skills I find this abhorrent compared to other field skills. (not First aid or Psi) Driving takes longer to train simply by virtue of having to NOT finish the event fast to gain skills, whereas to train leadership/mechs/guns/etc you want to finish the event as fast as possible. Races also generally take longer than combats/scouts for a lower skill gain. Basically to train driving you're giving up time you could be using to train a multiple of other skills at once, it's extremely inefficient. Don't agree. If you shoot a car till it demos, then keep shooting, then reload and keep shooting, and reload again and keep shooting, etc. eventually the rest of the NPC will demo without being shot, and you will gain 3 or 4 skill for all the shooting (with a sub 60 skilled character) However, as for driver... Driving in a straight line for 159 turns gets you 1 point of driver, but if you go full left 2 turns, then full right 2 turns and repeat, you can gain about 2 or 3 skill in aproximately 200 turns. I tried it out a few times, but still didn't seem worth it to drive around for an hour. I mean yeah it takes longer, but turning more often gets faster results
FireFly Posted Jul 13, 2014, 4:02 pm	Fifth said: I've had quite good results using newbie drivers as cargo-runners between towns, or driving muscle cars from BL to SS for sale. It's a good way to get a bunch of distance driving, but on something other than the racetrack. This still requires you to draw out the event to get good drive training out of it,  the faster/better you are the less driver training you get. That feels wrong to me.
Jety Posted Jul 13, 2014, 4:08 pm	I'm with Grimm and Firefly on this - gangers train for unsubbed players. I left in ~2011, and when I came back in 2014 my gangers were about +200 whatever skill they had been training; and most of them at the slow-ass camp rate no less. These were mostly mechs in camp, but I also have this worthless lev 147 cyclist Is it maybe the case that training camp bonus from town specifically isn't applied for unsubbed players?
*sam* Posted Jul 13, 2014, 4:14 pm	Well, I guess I could be mistaken in terms of when the date was that non-subs stopped getting weekly training. It may have been more recently! (but definitely not in the last 2 years) BTW I have just put through that change whereby nonsubs will also get their brackets/weekly skill level updated, if they have logged in during the past 8 days.
Jety Posted Jul 13, 2014, 4:25 pm	If they're not going to train, it might also be nice if they didn't age :/ When I cam back I was like "wow, look at that skill!" then I was like "oh god! they're all dying of old age!". This seemed like a pretty fair tradeoff. But if a player comes back after a few years and only has the old fogey part... that might disincentivize picking up playing again.
Grimm Sykes Posted Jul 13, 2014, 5:33 pm	Only time i've seen non subs not train is when they are on vacation. I just looked at a friends character, shows a skill at 99 (97) on his screenshot. and on my screen it shows Gunnery 90-100. So if at next training day, i look at his guy and it says skill is at 100 - 110. I know the gains are being applied weekly. and this character is a gladiator as well.
Celticfrost Posted Jul 13, 2014, 6:16 pm	Wow, long thread to read, but glad I did. In my experience of playing this game, I have seen so many battles back and forth about how specs should be handled. It is my opinion that a nerf of specs is really kinda knee jerking the response to "unfair" pvp. I believe that the problem with specs is not a matter of the bonuses applied by the spec, but simply the ridiculous number of specs high capped gangers receive. As an example, in combat skills, a ganger who caps at 80, has a total of 4 gun specs and 3 driver specs. Not very overpowered regardless of how you spec. On the other side of that, a 320 cap ganger will have 24 combat related specs and 18 driver specs that they can fill. This is where the sniper 6 or 7 gangers with rapid shot 5 or 6, and still have specs left over to boost reload time, as well as weapon specific specs. That 24 spec ganger is vastly superior, and yet does not add 1 point of CR to a vehicle for his presence. My conclusion, is that both PVE and PVP are extremely broken so long as gangers skills/specs have no bearing on how encounters are balanced. Sam, I love the game, its core is one of the best I have ever played. However, I will remain unsubbed to premium, and likely not play more than once every month or two, so long as this simple fact remains. NO other online game balances out gear but not character skills in pvp or gainful pve confrontations. A hard cap on ganger skills of 150 would be the best way to balance out the uber high sniper/rapid shot/ whateverelseeveryonecomplainsaboutskill problem. So long as we vets continue to have 20 and 30 spec gangers, there will always be some overpowered spec that most people will over-load their gangers with, because thats how human nature works. Good luck Sam, hope you make this game the coolest!
*Tinker* Posted Jul 13, 2014, 6:27 pm	*sam* said: In terms of psionics, 'Burn' seems to be the one that gets complained about... are there any others that are too powerful? Defensive energy starting around lvl 3, or using more then one DE in a car at a time, like one fellow who used to put 3 or more DEs in a car to be Mr. invincible. I forget but was chassis strength ever used to affect the outcome? don't think i noticed in an FE or AMBO tbh
FireFly Posted Jul 13, 2014, 6:40 pm	*Tinker* said: *sam* said: In terms of psionics, 'Burn' seems to be the one that gets complained about... are there any others that are too powerful? Defensive energy starting around lvl 3, or using more then one DE in a car at a time, like one fellow who used to put 3 or more DEs in a car to be Mr. invincible. I forget but was chassis strength ever used to affect the outcome? don't think i noticed in an FE or AMBO tbh In my defense I never actually did that in PvP, even if the idea of rolling an invincible FE right into the enemy was tempting.
Grimm Sykes Posted Jul 13, 2014, 6:42 pm	Celticfrost said: Wow, long thread to read, but glad I did. In my experience of playing this game, I have seen so many battles back and forth about how specs should be handled. It is my opinion that a nerf of specs is really kinda knee jerking the response to "unfair" pvp. I believe that the problem with specs is not a matter of the bonuses applied by the spec, but simply the ridiculous number of specs high capped gangers receive. As an example, in combat skills, a ganger who caps at 80, has a total of 4 gun specs and 3 driver specs. Not very overpowered regardless of how you spec. On the other side of that, a 320 cap ganger will have 24 combat related specs and 18 driver specs that they can fill. This is where the sniper 6 or 7 gangers with rapid shot 5 or 6, and still have specs left over to boost reload time, as well as weapon specific specs. That 24 spec ganger is vastly superior, and yet does not add 1 point of CR to a vehicle for his presence. My conclusion, is that both PVE and PVP are extremely broken so long as gangers skills/specs have no bearing on how encounters are balanced. Sam, I love the game, its core is one of the best I have ever played. However, I will remain unsubbed to premium, and likely not play more than once every month or two, so long as this simple fact remains. NO other online game balances out gear but not character skills in pvp or gainful pve confrontations. A hard cap on ganger skills of 150 would be the best way to balance out the uber high sniper/rapid shot/ whateverelseeveryonecomplainsaboutskill problem. So long as we vets continue to have 20 and 30 spec gangers, there will always be some overpowered spec that most people will over-load their gangers with, because thats how human nature works. Good luck Sam, hope you make this game the coolest! So it gets capped at 150, then what? SCL vouchers become useless, and SCL in itself, becomes less popular then  it is now?
Grimm Sykes Posted Jul 13, 2014, 6:47 pm	Try going into ANY game, lets take borderlands 2 for example.. and pit a level 1 character against a level 55 characters. guess what the level 1 guy is toast. OH NO thats so unfair, better nerf those veteran guys weapons or skills in some way. entirely agree on that point Celtic, good one.
Necrotech Posted Jul 13, 2014, 7:19 pm	To Celticfrost, respectfully, I do not agree at all. To summarize another recent post. Not all, nor should be, created equal. But, I do like the idea that the skill caps, per skill should vary, For instance, (hidden numbers of course) a Ganger could have a max cap of 56 driving, 134 mechanic, 75 medical.. a so so ganger, but a 934 in Leadership, he was born to lead. Another ganger for instance Gunnery - 274, Large Guns - 115, Ballastics - 93, Handguns - 230 He's okay with heavy type weapons, but has REAL talent as a sharpshooter... A real surgeon when it comes to finesse weaponry.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 13, 2014, 8:28 pm	*sam* said: Well, I guess I could be mistaken in terms of when the date was that non-subs stopped getting weekly training. It may have been more recently! (but definitely not in the last 2 years) BTW I have just put through that change whereby nonsubs will also get their brackets/weekly skill level updated, if they have logged in during the past 8 days. My experience with this was approximately 18 to 19 months ago (1 year ago Christmas-ish time. Certainly more recent than 2 years. I don't have an issue with nonsubs getting training. I think they should. However dormant Gangs should be frozen in time. Can't you just implement a weekly check for dormancy (you mentioned 8 weeks as a point if reference) and then have the server make a "backup" copy of the gang at that point in time and then erase it from play entirely until the owner returns to "wake up" his gang?  At which point it is re-installed from the backup? This would also remove dormant unpooled gangers from camp (who do nothing other than consume food). Although the removal if pooled gangers may hamper camp operations since they are sometimes used by other players for scouts or whatever.  It would also freeze aging
Grimm Sykes Posted Jul 13, 2014, 9:00 pm	StCrispin said: *sam* said: Well, I guess I could be mistaken in terms of when the date was that non-subs stopped getting weekly training. It may have been more recently! (but definitely not in the last 2 years) BTW I have just put through that change whereby nonsubs will also get their brackets/weekly skill level updated, if they have logged in during the past 8 days. My experience with this was approximately 18 to 19 months ago (1 year ago Christmas-ish time. Certainly more recent than 2 years. I don't have an issue with nonsubs getting training. I think they should. However dormant Gangs should be frozen in time. Can't you just implement a weekly check for dormancy (you mentioned 8 weeks as a point if reference) and then have the server make a "backup" copy of the gang at that point in time and then erase it from play entirely until the owner returns to "wake up" his gang?  At which point it is re-installed from the backup? This would also remove dormant unpooled gangers from camp (who do nothing other than consume food). Although the removal if pooled gangers may hamper camp operations since they are sometimes used by other players for scouts or whatever.  It would also freeze aging I can't speak for sam, but i get the impression that the database does not work that way, and is a pain to edit or remove characters from.
*Rev. V* Posted Jul 13, 2014, 9:30 pm	I haven't been subbed for a couple of months, and I can tell you all for a fact that my nuns are NOT getting any training.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 13, 2014, 9:57 pm	It's not a major issue IMO anyway. It only got brought up because Goat didn't believe that there could be a 300+ Psi NPC Although I'm sure is has been exploited in the past or currently so it never hurts to discuss it. I just wish my camp NPCs were that good! Mine die too quickly. Lol
*The X Man* Posted Jul 13, 2014, 10:56 pm	StCrispin said: I don't have an issue with nonsubs getting training. I think they should. However dormant Gangs should be frozen in time. DW is played in a PERSISTENT WORLD with a realworld timescale. Dormancy has no business in this game, IMHO. Trying to remove or change things that make DW unique will start to make it a less appealing and boring game. Next thing someone is going to recommend Perma Death be changed to Serious Injury or have a Resurrection Spec for your First Aid character.
*Bastille* Posted Jul 13, 2014, 11:05 pm	yeah, I dont' think aging should be turned off when not subbed or on vacation.
Grimm Sykes Posted Jul 13, 2014, 11:22 pm	*The X Man* said: Trying to remove or change things that make DW unique will start to make it a less appealing and boring game AHhh you mean like nerfing sniper spec?
*Bastille* Posted Jul 13, 2014, 11:26 pm	I don't see that as something that makes DW unique.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 13, 2014, 11:44 pm	*Bastille* said: I don't see that as something that makes DW unique. How does the inability to take a break from the game without losing everything, make DW unique For some it could prompt them to never return because they have to start over.
*The X Man* Posted Jul 14, 2014, 1:18 am	Grimm Sykes said: *The X Man* said: Trying to remove or change things that make DW unique will start to make it a less appealing and boring game AHhh you mean like nerfing sniper spec? Shooting skills are in just about every game shooting game, so it is not unique.
*The X Man* Posted Jul 14, 2014, 1:21 am	StCrispin said: *Bastille* said: I don't see that as something that makes DW unique. How does the inability to take a break from the game without losing everything, make DW unique For some it could prompt them to never return because they have to start over. It has nothing to do with the inability to take a break, the uniqueness is when your characters actually age and die.
*Bastille* Posted Jul 14, 2014, 2:56 am	you can take a break and still train, I took most of this year off due to other commitments.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 14, 2014, 3:52 am	*The X Man* said: StCrispin said: *Bastille* said: I don't see that as something that makes DW unique. How does the inability to take a break from the game without losing everything, make DW unique For some it could prompt them to never return because they have to start over. It has nothing to do with the inability to take a break, the uniqueness is when your characters actually age and die. True. Although some future players may see having all their people die while they are not actually active in the game as being a negative point. Personally it wouldn't affect me since I stay active and subbed. But take the example of someone who plays 3 months then remains dormant for 2 years and returns. Although I guess you'd have to be dormant a long time for your gang to die. If hired at age 20 and died at age 50 with about 5 game years per real life year, that would be a 6 year break from the game. Lol. Just looking at all the angles I guess
Ragnak Posted Jul 14, 2014, 5:33 am	Its not the aging that kills you but the wear and tear on the character. Take a hiatus from the game and your gang will be fine.
*Snipe* Posted Jul 14, 2014, 5:49 am	The whole "leaving the game and my guys get old" argument is a weak one. There are many games that if you take a long break from them you pretty much come back to chaos - usually facilitating a restart. Difference being that chances are you will just have to re-train some crew, you should have your equipment still. This game is the same as many time management type games where time still goes by - even if you arent actively playing.
*sam* Posted Jul 14, 2014, 6:53 am	*The X Man* said: StCrispin said: I don't have an issue with nonsubs getting training. I think they should. However dormant Gangs should be frozen in time. DW is played in a PERSISTENT WORLD with a realworld timescale. Dormancy has no business in this game, IMHO. Trying to remove or change things that make DW unique will start to make it a less appealing and boring game. Next thing someone is going to recommend Perma Death be changed to Serious Injury or have a Resurrection Spec for your First Aid character. +1 A few people have mentioned the possibility of freezing aging. That's not gonna happen  ;-)
Jarkko Niemi Posted Jul 14, 2014, 3:56 pm	I played one year, and now I have been one year off. My credits are few million of negative, crew has maxed their trained skills. Even though I played only on Scavenger Mode. When I come back to playing again, I will ask to reset my account. Though, I will miss my Mechanics in Scav.
*Bastille* Posted Jul 15, 2014, 2:14 am	where are all these mechanics of yours?
Jarkko Niemi Posted Jul 15, 2014, 6:47 am	*Bastille* said: where are all these mechanics of yours? After checking my gang ... umm... I don't find any significantly skilled ones. Was there any illnesses what might kill those. I certainly kept my best mech always at town. I was able to do B-armor and repair weapons/engines (about year ago) Anyway, looks like I get quite fresh start, I have quite many cars at carage though. I stopped playing here because I got the habit to do almost total party wipes. So I desided that I must change my active game, and come back later, in hope that I have forgotten my bad habits what caused that negative net gain from missions.
Iron Wraith Posted Jul 15, 2014, 7:07 am	As resident perma-non-sub, I can definitely say you get no training. My gangers are all still mostly pish after years of on-off play. In order to get them skilled I put them through every event I could until they got broken. Most of them are now crippled, worn down, heavy junkies or are newish replacements (before the cap on gang numbers got applied for non-subs). Non-subs should not get training. It's the price you pay for... errr... not paying. Gangs should not get frozen. I have seen occasions where it might have looked like training was occurring but on closer inspection it was ganger stats that had changed (often due to the short term effects of drugs) and this had boosted the skills. I would suggest that the man that wrote the code should know what the code does