Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 2, 2014, 7:17 pm	... but after a month, I can't. It's buggy, the community has a LOT of trolls in the lobby and most of all, the works around the bugs (that most veterans blame on stupid AI) has me honestly feeling abused by the game... To help express my point I'm just going to give a referal to Extra Credits' Challlenging vs. Punishing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs This game is on the wrong side of that line.
Tallus Posted Oct 2, 2014, 7:25 pm	Well, I'm just now thinking of resubbing my month's subscription. Seen a couple of bugs -- still need to report an instance of non-newtonian physics -- but think the game is great. I've run into a couple of annoying trolls in the lobby, and a couple player killers in non-league deathraces, but hard to complain too much about it when we're talking about a game that models itself after Mad Max's society. But then I always wanted to like Car Wars.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 2, 2014, 7:32 pm	Tallus said: Well, I'm just now thinking of resubbing my month's subscription. Seen a couple  of bugs -- still need to report an instance of non-newtonian physics -- but think the game is great. I've run into a couple of annoying trolls in the lobby, and a couple player killers in non-league deathraces, but hard to complain too much about it when we're talking about a game that models itself after Mad Max's society. But then I always wanted to like Car Wars. I already love Car Wars... It's one of the reasons I want to like this game, but this game is not like any Car Wars game I ever played... It's like playing Car Wars with a sadistic and inconsistant GM.
*goat starer* Posted Oct 2, 2014, 8:14 pm	You have clearly been playing another game old bean. I don't know what the lobby is like in your time zone but it is civil and helpful when I am on. Having played the game for 7 years I see no game breaking bugs. This game is the best car wars reimagining around and most of the older players are hardcore Car wars players who found the game through jimmys site and stayed. The game has a steep learning curve but becomes if anything rather easy. That said it is a game that requires patience, creativity, teamwork, tactics, role play and a tough hide to get the most out of it. If that isn't you... And lots of people find it isnt, then it's not the game for you.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 2, 2014, 8:35 pm	goat starer said: You have clearly been playing another game old bean. I don't know what the lobby is like in your time zone but it is civil and helpful when I am on. Having played the game for 7 years I see no game breaking bugs. This game is the best car wars reimagining around and most of the older players are hardcore Car wars players who found the game through jimmys site and stayed. The game has a steep learning curve but becomes if anything rather easy. That said it is a game that requires patience, creativity, teamwork, tactics, role play and a tough hide to get the most out of it. If that isn't you... And lots of people find it isnt, then it's not the game for you. You list  several trait requirements that just support my claim that this is punishing... and I've experienced more than one game breaking bug, as well as events that stack the odds so against me that only pure luck will save anything, and the enemy are already in firing range when it starts. Yeah, I know.. The veteran answer to this is, "Well, you got ambushed" but that's BS... That's the game trying to create no-win situations and I don't believe in nor do I enjoy playing no win situations... and it's not a high learning curve.. It's actually kinda easy... It's that there is no apparent difficulty curve that fits new players so the answer again, often given by veterans is to tell new players that for months, they should just train their gangers, stick to in town events and only go out when their hand is being held by a veteran, which is NOT what I am looking for in a game. And teamwork?.. If I can't play a game solo and I must depend on others to get anything done, I am also not interested. Finally, I been flamed repeatedly.. I mention a bug in the lobby within my first few days and everyone there assumes I'm a moron and starts telling me how to do exactly what I am telling them does not work and is bugged, claiming left and right that it's not a problem becasuse they are not experiencing, so I message Sam Directly with no response or aknowledgement, so eventually I just posted it to the forum with a video to demonstrate the bug and low and behold Sam finds the problem really quick once it's actually shown that I am not out of F-ing mind and found a REAL bug. That's a lobby full of fanboy trolls, and what's worse, one of them I will not name even asked me to make a video to prove one of my points and then accused me of trying to pad my viewer count when I created just such a video on twitch for them to see and they refused to watch it.... There is nothing supportive, or friendly about all that... And what's more, the person, again unnamed that has demanding I need their help and they want to help noobs is one of the biggest jerks I've run into. There are a few cool people I've met... Most are not, and it only takes a couple trolls in a chatroom not being kept in check by moderators or marshals as they call them on here to make a whole chatroom very UNINVITING.
JS Posted Oct 2, 2014, 8:59 pm	Logan Kurtiss said: goat starer said: You have clearly been playing another game old bean. I don't know what the lobby is like in your time zone but it is civil and helpful when I am on. Having played the game for 7 years I see no game breaking bugs. This game is the best car wars reimagining around and most of the older players are hardcore Car wars players who found the game through jimmys site and stayed. The game has a steep learning curve but becomes if anything rather easy. That said it is a game that requires patience, creativity, teamwork, tactics, role play and a tough hide to get the most out of it. If that isn't you... And lots of people find it isnt, then it's not the game for you. You list  several trait requirements that just support my claim that this is punishing... and I've experienced more than one game breaking bug, as well as events that stack the odds so against me that only pure luck will save anything, and the enemy are already in firing range when it starts. Yeah, I know.. The veteran answer to this is, "Well, you got ambushed" but that's BS... That's the game trying to create no-win situations and I don't believe in nor do I enjoy playing no win situations... and it's not a high learning curve.. It's actually kinda easy... It's that there is no apparent difficulty curve that fits new players so the answer again, often given by veterans is to tell new players that for months, they should just train their gangers, stick to in town events and only go out when their hand is being held by a veteran, which is NOT what I am looking for in a game. And teamwork?.. If I can't play a game solo and I must depend on others to get anything done, I am also not interested. Finally, I been flamed repeatedly.. I mention a bug in the lobby within my first few days and everyone there assumes I'm a moron and starts telling me how to do exactly what I am telling them does not work and is bugged, claiming left and right that it's not a problem becasuse they are not experiencing, so I message Sam Directly with no response or aknowledgement, so eventually I just posted it to the forum with a video to demonstrate the bug and low and behold Sam finds the problem really quick once it's actually shown that I am not out of F-ing mind and found a REAL bug. That's a lobby full of fanboy trolls, and what's worse, one of them I will not name even asked me to make a video to prove one of my points and then accused me of trying to pad my viewer count when I created just such a video on twitch for them to see and they refused to watch it.... There is nothing supportive, or friendly about all that... And what's more, the person, again unnamed that has demanding I need their help and they want to help noobs is one of the biggest jerks I've run into. There are a few cool people I've met... Most are not, and it only takes a couple trolls in a chatroom not being kept in check by moderators or marshals as they call them on here to make a whole chatroom very UNINVITING. Hello Juan. Do you ever tire of this?
*goat starer* Posted Oct 2, 2014, 8:59 pm	i have never seen an unwinnable or escapable scout in SS except where people brought unusable cars. This game is not that hard. Bit of tactics and a bit of common sense and its a doddle. and before you start accusing me of being a vet who cant remember what it was like I have started the game 4 times from scratch and built a scav gang from scratch. I have played ss as a new player many times and there have been no significant bugs that render the game unplayable / unenjoyable.. no unfair event spawns... nothing that matches your description of your experience. That said.. like I said it is not for everyone. If its not for you then nothing will keep you here. Posting negative comments in here wont make it better for you. That just puts you in the 'troll' camp. EDIT: JS and necro... whoever it is or is not I cant help feeling you just proved his point about trolling.
Necrotech Posted Oct 2, 2014, 9:04 pm	Bug finding.. is all good. However, I do not see the punishing part... unless one is not prepared. This game will beat on you hard for that. Ambushes.... part of the game, did you know you can ambush the AI too? Depends on your scout level. Solo play... yes you can... fairly easily, just must be patient and attentive. In most cases here, I am going to go with the Challenging side vs punishing. I would take the time, learn the subtle bits about the game. And on the chance that you are indeed Juan/LSD/Grimm,.... Have a nice day, trailer man.
JS Posted Oct 2, 2014, 9:25 pm	goat starer said: EDIT: JS and necro... whoever it is or is not I cant help feeling you just proved his point about trolling. I considered that.  But the complaints are exactly the same, but given from a "new" player perspective.  Except that the way they were couched and the knowledge underlying the comments appears to be beyond a new players possible understanding.  In any event, at this point a "Juan" is anyone who exhibits this kind of haughty critique style.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 2, 2014, 9:44 pm	JS said: Hello Juan. Do you ever tire of this? Pucker up and kiss my backside... I'm not this fricken Juan and I resent being accused of being someone else that you all already clearly have an issue with... infact, I was accused of being Juan about 20 times when I was trying to explain the bug that everyone denied existed till i proved it by video and Sam found it. I am a player that arrived a month ago, went Premium and am a very disappointed paying customer and not a returning person you have a grudge against. And @Necro.... I'm a 46 year old gamer that has been into both tabletop RPGs and playing video games since '78... I learn very fast.. I am sick of both being accused of knowing too much to be a noob or being too noob to know the difference between a bug and a feature... I can't be both and both are insulting to me. Heck, I'll go as far as tooting my horn here and outright tell you folks I'm a certified genius and not the stupid noob some of you seem to think I am.. I have also been a playtester for Steve Jackson Games and White Wolf Studios as well as a beta tester on many an MMO.... I am not new to games, confused about what is or isn't a bug, and I have a very good idea of what makes or breaks a game, as I been studying game design for 25 years now.
Crazy AL Posted Oct 2, 2014, 9:48 pm	I watched the video you linked and I agree with it's sentiment where challenging games are fun and punishing games are not so much fun. Thanks for finding whatever bug it was, too. I would like more specific information as to what you regard the punishing portion of this game to be in your opinion and what you would consider a win is vs. what a lose is in DW.
Iron Wraith Posted Oct 2, 2014, 9:50 pm	Not to everyone's taste. It can be hard at times and yes it can be f^$%&% frustrating when it bugs out and puts your people at risk. The fact that the game is hard on mistakes makes it especially annoying when it is the game that makes the mistake and your gangers suffer for it. Then again, it's better than not being able to play a table top version as all your friends have moved away. It's still a hell of a lot better than nothing
Flaming savage Posted Oct 2, 2014, 9:55 pm	Gents rather than start another spat can we take the points he has made and consider them moving forward? Arguing is in no case beneficial to the game or community.
Necrotech Posted Oct 2, 2014, 10:03 pm	I agree with this sentiment. What have you seen specifically that is Punishing v. Challenging? I am a mite bit curious. Crazy AL said: I watched the video you linked and I agree with it's sentiment where challenging games are fun and punishing games are not so much fun. Thanks for finding whatever bug it was, too. I would like more specific information as to what you regard the punishing portion of this game to be in your opinion and what you would consider a win is vs. what a lose is in DW.
Joel Autobaun Posted Oct 2, 2014, 10:04 pm	Agree. Thank him for his consideration and move on.
*sam* Posted Oct 2, 2014, 10:19 pm	Flaming savage said: Gents rather than start another spat can we take the points he has made and consider them moving forward? Arguing is in no case beneficial to the game or community. Yep, good point Sav
JS Posted Oct 2, 2014, 10:27 pm	Logan Kurtiss said: JS said: Hello Juan. Do you ever tire of this? Pucker up and kiss my backside... I'm not this fricken Juan and I resent being accused of being someone else that you all already clearly have an issue with... infact, I was accused of being Juan about 20 times when I was trying to explain the bug that everyone denied existed till i proved it by video and Sam found it. I am a player that arrived a month ago, went Premium and am a very disappointed paying customer and not a returning person you have a grudge against. And @Necro.... I'm a 46 year old gamer that has been into both tabletop RPGs and playing video games since '78... I learn very fast.. I am sick of both being accused of knowing too much to be a noob or being too noob to know the difference between a bug and a feature... I can't be both and both are insulting to me. Heck, I'll go as far as tooting my horn here and outright tell you folks I'm a certified genius and not the stupid noob some of you seem to think I am.. I have also been a playtester for Steve Jackson Games and White Wolf Studios as well as a beta tester on many an MMO.... I am not new to games, confused about what is or isn't a bug, and I have a very good idea of what makes or breaks a game, as I been studying game design for 25 years now. Juan confirmed. So so much Juan.
*goat starer* Posted Oct 2, 2014, 10:29 pm	JS said: Logan Kurtiss said: JS said: Hello Juan. Do you ever tire of this? Pucker up and kiss my backside... I'm not this fricken Juan and I resent being accused of being someone else that you all already clearly have an issue with... infact, I was accused of being Juan about 20 times when I was trying to explain the bug that everyone denied existed till i proved it by video and Sam found it. I am a player that arrived a month ago, went Premium and am a very disappointed paying customer and not a returning person you have a grudge against. And @Necro.... I'm a 46 year old gamer that has been into both tabletop RPGs and playing video games since '78... I learn very fast.. I am sick of both being accused of knowing too much to be a noob or being too noob to know the difference between a bug and a feature... I can't be both and both are insulting to me. Heck, I'll go as far as tooting my horn here and outright tell you folks I'm a certified genius and not the stupid noob some of you seem to think I am.. I have also been a playtester for Steve Jackson Games and White Wolf Studios as well as a beta tester on many an MMO.... I am not new to games, confused about what is or isn't a bug, and I have a very good idea of what makes or breaks a game, as I been studying game design for 25 years now. Juan confirmed. So so much Juan. ah well JS .. i tried to be reasonable - it was part of my therapy - but i'm with you now.. guy is clearly so far up his own arse he can see out of his mouth  move along people.. nothing to see here
JS Posted Oct 2, 2014, 10:34 pm	I knew Goat was around here somewhere...
*goat starer* Posted Oct 2, 2014, 10:36 pm	JS said: I knew Goat was around here somewhere... :-) TRIP TRAP TRIP TRAP
*Synyster Gates* jesse_bliss@yahoo.com Posted Oct 2, 2014, 11:09 pm	I can't help but think that Logan is just a critical player, wanting and hoping for this game to be a perfect copy of Car Wars, in action. nope.jpg I'd like to point out that yesterday he claimed that the game is always unfair and the deck is always stacked against the player(s). And yet, the event that has spawned all this trash talk of the game is supposedly the first event in which he's been in an unwinnable situation. All I can say is, bad scout, bad roll, it happens. Welcome to the usual Badlands odds.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 2, 2014, 11:31 pm	*Synyster Gates* said: I can't help but think that Logan is just a critical player, wanting and hoping for this game to be a perfect copy of Car Wars, in action. nope.jpg I'd like to point out that yesterday he claimed that the game is always unfair and the deck is always stacked against the player(s). And yet, the event that has spawned all this trash talk of the game is supposedly the first event in which he's been in an unwinnable situation. All I can say is, bad scout, bad roll, it happens. Welcome to the usual Badlands odds. I didn't claim that and it's a total misquote... I said the game is brutally unfair at times, most notably referring to bugs getting characters killed, which I have already seen others on this very thread confirm sometimes happen, and when it more than once in a row starts me with the enemy already in firing range on me and with little change to get away. My last two events are both examples of this if you want to see them. 2 events back, 7 cars on 1, 2 of them in firing range, infront of me, from turn 1, and I got away from that one, but then, right after that, 4 on 1 with, again, two cars lined up and in range to shoot from turn 1 and after just two shots demoralized my ganger. I've had a car bottoming out with the ground.. No wall, no sudden hill, not even a visible bump, destroy the front armor on a ride, destroy the engine and kill the driver all in one shot and the marshal that reviewed it agreed the whole thing was suspect and a bit extreme. I've seen cars that should be flipped completely over and turtled, suddenly reverse the direction they are rolling and pop up onto their wheels like they had springs in the side of the car to auto-right them when they roll. Also, yesterday, when I had not one, not two but three situations back to back I call extremely excessive in the brutality I was facing and well into the area of punishing, a fricken chaser ran across the bottom a lake and came out the other side in one piece, and I mean so deep you couldn't see the car at all in the water and by angling the camera and judging by the triangulation on the text, had to be at least 25 meters underwater. I've had my own rides suddenly and inexplicably, on flat ground, jump into the air like a an explosion went off under them when there was no enemy in range to even shoot at them and then land upside down, turtled by a bug. I am a bug magnet, and will outright state as much, but if Sam won't fix, review, or give restitution for game breaking bugs that cost me rides and drivers, then the game is brutally unfair... You wanna know why Steam users come and Steam users have mostly gone and the forum there is barely getting any attention?... It's for every reason I have given and on top of that, that there are veteran trolls in the lobby that are very qucik to tell anyone that has a problem to get lost, which isn't good for Sam, not good for the game, not good for the community and definitely not good for the game, and finally, the whole brutality of the game and how much the market has shifted to a CHR cost for the majority of what's on the market, it does not come across as truly Free2Play... It did when I first showed up, but since then, it has way changed, just over the last month but now, it looks a lot like Pay2Win. The game is not newbie friendly, IS very punishing, IS buggy, IS trolled, as has been proven in this very thread, and will continue to be a niche market for only the masochistic and truly tolerant players... or those that are the opposite of me and NEVER encounter bugs. PS: I am a critical player that is critical of games but I don't expect it to be a perfect copy of car wars as that would be getting into copyright infringement and unlike some of the players here (by what they told me) I am not a pirate that doesn't believe in copyrights and steals every game I play, so would not agree with plagarizing Car Wars... What I do expect is a game to work and have it's bugs addressed, but it is quite clear, from what I keep getting told, that most of the game breaking bugs this game has are not new, and will probably never be fixed. If I thought that bugs would be fixed, I'd bear with the bugs, but I do not like this as is, it is quite clear that Sam has a full time job and doesn't have the time to dedicate to fixing it and as I was told last night, he apparently refuses to let anyone that does have time and coding skills near it to fix it for him, so I have NO expectations that anything about this game I have issues with will ever change.
*Rev. V* Posted Oct 2, 2014, 11:35 pm	You would not be the first person to think I am a masochist....
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 2, 2014, 11:49 pm	I feel I need to add a couple more points to this because I got a strange feeling I'm going to end up arguing the points against a flame that has yet to happen here and that I have already heard in the lobby. Yes, I complain... No, I am not a complainer... I am a critic.. Thus the admission that yes, I am a critical player. If the person I am complaining to actually listens, they would find most of my complaints are constructive criticism and not flaming or trolling... and a world without anyone that complains is a world that will never change and will always have problems, because if no one complains nothing ever changes. Finally, there is a rule in politics that EVERY politician knows and it's called the 1% rule... The rule basically states that for every single time you get contacted with a complaint or grievance, there are almost garraunteed to be at least 99 other people, if not a hell of a lot more that have the same exact complaints or grievances but did not bother taking the time or effort to voice them.
JS Posted Oct 2, 2014, 11:55 pm	*Synyster Gates* said: I can't help but think that Logan is just a critical player, wanting and hoping for this game to be a perfect copy of Car Wars, in action. nope.jpg I'd like to point out that yesterday he claimed that the game is always unfair and the deck is always stacked against the player(s). And yet, the event that has spawned all this trash talk of the game is supposedly the first event in which he's been in an unwinnable situation. All I can say is, bad scout, bad roll, it happens. Welcome to the usual Badlands odds. So he was already good enough to challenge BL?  In a month?  Possible, but unlikely.  Prior knowledge of the Juan.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 2, 2014, 11:59 pm	JS said: *Synyster Gates* said: I can't help but think that Logan is just a critical player, wanting and hoping for this game to be a perfect copy of Car Wars, in action. nope.jpg I'd like to point out that yesterday he claimed that the game is always unfair and the deck is always stacked against the player(s). And yet, the event that has spawned all this trash talk of the game is supposedly the first event in which he's been in an unwinnable situation. All I can say is, bad scout, bad roll, it happens. Welcome to the usual Badlands odds. So he was already good enough to challenge BL?  In a month?  Possible, but unlikely.  Prior knowledge of the Juan. Quit calling me Juan.. That's not my F-ing name and I never been here before a month ago so whoever this Juan is, it's not me... My name is Kami, not Juan. Get that through your skull, Shrek ADDED: And for the record, I don't need prior experience to learn how to play this game... I been playing computer games for 38 years and have a collection of thousands of games.. I have over 500 on Steam alone, and I've played most of them. There is 1 thing... 1 whole thing in this game that is new and original to me: The ghosts of the cars predicting where they might be... Everything else, I have seen or already experienced at some point in prior games, so take all your stupid attitude that I must have prior experience and shove it where the sun don't shine.
Ragnak Posted Oct 3, 2014, 12:00 am	Well if one was to go by the response of those on this board then I do believe Logan you have proven your point of trolls. Some of the responses have been out of line but the norm for those who have posted. Darkwind is like every other game and game forum where you will always see the like. Overall, I would hope that the maturity level was a bit higher here, and my experience is that it used to be that way, however this thread seems to going in the opposite direction. Darkwind is both challenging and punishing. I expect that in a game which is an open sandbox and thus allows a player to roam wherever. I can start a new squad wherever I can get a guy to and start scouting on the fly. This blurs the line between a challenge versus a punishment and it is up to the player to know the difference. The player has the responsibility in this game to manage their risks. Does the game identify and prepare you for how the danger levels increase as you go South? No, it doesn't and this should be seriously looked at as an area to improve upon. That said, in the end, a player should be asking themselves if they are prepared for the endeavors they are taking on. Should this be the end of your time in Darkwind then I feel the community will suffer a loss. In the times I have been on and read the comments in the client, you have always tried to be friendly and useful to all players. You have tried to help the game when you could and that is what all of us should be trying to do. Rags
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 12:04 am	Ragnak said: Well if one was to go by the response of those on this board then I do believe Logan you have proven your point of trolls. Some of the responses have been out of line but the norm for those who have posted. Darkwind is like every other game and game forum where you will always see the like. Overall, I would hope that the maturity level was a bit higher here, and my experience is that it used to be that way, however this thread seems to going in the opposite direction. Darkwind is both challenging and punishing. I expect that in a game which is an open sandbox and thus allows a player to roam wherever. I can start a new squad wherever I can get a guy to and start scouting on the fly. This blurs the line between a challenge versus a punishment and it is up to the player to know the difference. The player has the responsibility in this game to manage their risks. Does the game identify and prepare you for how the danger levels increase as you go South? No, it doesn't and this should be seriously looked at as an area to improve upon. That said, in the end, a player should be asking themselves if they are prepared for the endeavors they are taking on. Should this be the end of your time in Darkwind then I feel the community will suffer a loss. In the times I have been on and read the comments in the client, you have always tried to be friendly and useful to all players. You have tried to help the game when you could and that is what all of us should be trying to do. Rags Sorry, but I am so gone... done playing.. Done spending a dime here... And the reactions on this thread are the kick in the ass that has helped me out the door.. You can thank your community members for helping seal the fate that I will no longer be playing. I have also already written up my scoldingly negative review on Steam of this game and most of my negativity is the lack of expectation that anything will ever get fixed and the trolls.
Crazy AL Posted Oct 3, 2014, 12:26 am	Well, hopefully you keep an eye out on this post whether you actually post or not because I believe I'll be able to offer you some constructive criticism like you attempted to do for DW. I am older than you and my gaming history is much like yours. I have been playing games on the internet since they were text based MUDs all the way up through every popular MMO and highly rated single player game that I've been able to get my hands on and have the time to play so I hope (if you're still checking this post) that you at least respect my opinion like I've respected yours. The fact that you were scouting in BL is extremely suspect to me like it was to others reading this post. I am willing to acknowledge you have a high degree of gaming expertise, but I am not willing to admit you have gangers of any skill, nor a scout that has any business being in the southern triangle unless you're running single vehicle cargo runs with a fast car. As you can see to the left, I've been playing this game for a little while and I've played and STILL play Car Wars with my weekly gaming buddies. *I* still find BL challenging with a my best scout who has a 250+ scouting skill. That you would even try BL scouting with the skill level of your gangers was your first mistake. Most of what you described that went wrong that wasn't bug related sounds like a lousy skilled scout. Many, if not all will agree with me concerning BL and it's unfortunate that your prior gaming experience was actually somewhat of a detriment to your experience here in DW. I appreciate the fact that you posted your grievances rather than leaving without saying anything. Hopefully your comments will contribute to a better overall experience here for the players who stay.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 12:31 am	Crazy AL said: Well, hopefully you keep an eye out on this post whether you actually post or not because I believe I'll be able to offer you some constructive criticism like you attempted to do for DW. I am older than you and my gaming history is much like yours. I have been playing games on the internet since they were text based MUDs all the way up through every popular MMO and highly rated single player game that I've been able to get my hands on and have the time to play so I hope (if you're still checking this post) that you at least respect my opinion like I've respected yours. The fact that you were scouting in BL is extremely suspect to me like it was to others reading this post. I am willing to acknowledge you have a high degree of gaming expertise, but I am not willing to admit you have gangers of any skill, nor a scout that has any business being in the southern triangle unless you're running single vehicle cargo runs with a fast car. As you can see to the left, I've been playing this game for a little while and I've played and STILL play Car Wars with my weekly gaming buddies. *I* still find BL challenging with a my best scout who has a 250+ scouting skill. That you would even try BL scouting with the skill level of your gangers was your first mistake. Most of what you described that went wrong that wasn't bug related sounds like a lousy skilled scout. Many, if not all will agree with me concerning BL and it's unfortunate that your prior gaming experience was actually somewhat of a detriment to your experience here in DW. I appreciate the fact that you posted your grievances rather than leaving without saying anything. Hopefully your comments will contribute to a better overall experience here for the players who stay. 1st.. I was not scouting in the badlands.. I was traveling in an unarmed ride from GW to BL. Second, I still play MU*s sometimes as they have a level of RP and detail you can't find anyplace else (yet).
*goat starer* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 12:32 am	Logan Kurtiss said: Ragnak said: Well if one was to go by the response of those on this board then I do believe Logan you have proven your point of trolls. Some of the responses have been out of line but the norm for those who have posted. Darkwind is like every other game and game forum where you will always see the like. Overall, I would hope that the maturity level was a bit higher here, and my experience is that it used to be that way, however this thread seems to going in the opposite direction. Darkwind is both challenging and punishing. I expect that in a game which is an open sandbox and thus allows a player to roam wherever. I can start a new squad wherever I can get a guy to and start scouting on the fly. This blurs the line between a challenge versus a punishment and it is up to the player to know the difference. The player has the responsibility in this game to manage their risks. Does the game identify and prepare you for how the danger levels increase as you go South? No, it doesn't and this should be seriously looked at as an area to improve upon. That said, in the end, a player should be asking themselves if they are prepared for the endeavors they are taking on. Should this be the end of your time in Darkwind then I feel the community will suffer a loss. In the times I have been on and read the comments in the client, you have always tried to be friendly and useful to all players. You have tried to help the game when you could and that is what all of us should be trying to do. Rags Sorry, but I am so gone... done playing.. Done spending a dime here... And the reactions on this thread are the kick in the ass that has helped me out the door.. You can thank your community members for helping seal the fate that I will no longer be playing. I have also already written up my scoldingly negative review on Steam of this game and most of my negativity is the lack of expectation that anything will ever get fixed and the trolls. bless you... you join a game... immediately start running around trying to play the most difficult bits with inadequate gangers, inadequate experience and inadequate patience. This is clearly not the game for you. and ragnak.. If you cant spot a rather unpleasant troll when you see one you should refrain from comment. This is a thread started by someone with nothing constructive or positive to say... who reacted with nothing positive to the first comments and frankly earned the 'Juan' label JS gave him. The game will be much the richer for losing another kid with no ida of how turn based games work and no patience to play the game at the level he is at.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 12:35 am	goat starer said: Logan Kurtiss said: Ragnak said: Well if one was to go by the response of those on this board then I do believe Logan you have proven your point of trolls. Some of the responses have been out of line but the norm for those who have posted. Darkwind is like every other game and game forum where you will always see the like. Overall, I would hope that the maturity level was a bit higher here, and my experience is that it used to be that way, however this thread seems to going in the opposite direction. Darkwind is both challenging and punishing. I expect that in a game which is an open sandbox and thus allows a player to roam wherever. I can start a new squad wherever I can get a guy to and start scouting on the fly. This blurs the line between a challenge versus a punishment and it is up to the player to know the difference. The player has the responsibility in this game to manage their risks. Does the game identify and prepare you for how the danger levels increase as you go South? No, it doesn't and this should be seriously looked at as an area to improve upon. That said, in the end, a player should be asking themselves if they are prepared for the endeavors they are taking on. Should this be the end of your time in Darkwind then I feel the community will suffer a loss. In the times I have been on and read the comments in the client, you have always tried to be friendly and useful to all players. You have tried to help the game when you could and that is what all of us should be trying to do. Rags Sorry, but I am so gone... done playing.. Done spending a dime here... And the reactions on this thread are the kick in the ass that has helped me out the door.. You can thank your community members for helping seal the fate that I will no longer be playing. I have also already written up my scoldingly negative review on Steam of this game and most of my negativity is the lack of expectation that anything will ever get fixed and the trolls. bless you... you join a game... immediately start running around trying to play the most difficult bits with inadequate gangers, inadequate experience and inadequate patience. This is clearly not the game for you. For the third fricken time in this thread... I was NOT SCOUTING!!. I was travelling in an unarmed ride!! Before you troll a forum you should actually read everything on it to make sure your flames are at least valid. And when getting gangers thrown in Firelight, I don't where I have a fricken choice in whether or not I go south of the triangle.
*goat starer* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 12:37 am	i didn't say you were.. travelling inthe south is just as hard as scouting if you dont have a scout. You were doing end game activities when you were a noob.... that is just stupid. I said you were trying to play the difficult bits of the game... i didnt mention scouting... i think only one person has reading issues. you always have a choice... there are multiple free taxi services run by all these nasty trolls you keep banging on about... horrible helpful trolls that will help you get your characters out of firelight. or you could have abandoned them... since none of them were any better than new hires.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 12:41 am	goat starer said: i didn't say you were.. travelling inthe south is just as hard as scouting if you dont have a scout. You were doing end game activities when you were a noob.... that is just stupid. you always have a choice... there are multiple free taxi services run by all these nasty trolls you keep banging on about... Again, I must correct you.. I have said already, as well, that not everyone is trolls, but there are enough that it's an issue, and even if there weren't a lot, it doesn't take many when let to flame freely to make a place very unwelcoming. In this thread, for example, not everyone commenting is a troll, but you are the biggest one. What's more, every veteran agreeing that I have proven my point on trolls is going to remember you as one, so I may be leaving and you don't have to worry about offending me cause I won't be sticking around, but I assure you, others will remember.
d0dger Posted Oct 3, 2014, 12:46 am	JS said: Logan Kurtiss said: JS said: Hello Juan. Do you ever tire of this? Pucker up and kiss my backside... I'm not this fricken Juan and I resent being accused of being someone else that you all already clearly have an issue with... infact, I was accused of being Juan about 20 times when I was trying to explain the bug that everyone denied existed till i proved it by video and Sam found it. I am a player that arrived a month ago, went Premium and am a very disappointed paying customer and not a returning person you have a grudge against. And @Necro.... I'm a 46 year old gamer that has been into both tabletop RPGs and playing video games since '78... I learn very fast.. I am sick of both being accused of knowing too much to be a noob or being too noob to know the difference between a bug and a feature... I can't be both and both are insulting to me. Heck, I'll go as far as tooting my horn here and outright tell you folks I'm a certified genius and not the stupid noob some of you seem to think I am.. I have also been a playtester for Steve Jackson Games and White Wolf Studios as well as a beta tester on many an MMO.... I am not new to games, confused about what is or isn't a bug, and I have a very good idea of what makes or breaks a game, as I been studying game design for 25 years now. Juan confirmed. So so much Juan. I have to admit... the genius line got me too. For my part, I'll just say I ABSOLUTELY LOVE that this game can have serious and permanent consequences to a series (or even a few) poor decisions on the player's part. I really loathe the modern trend of games being so easy that pretty much anyone will win any and all of the time.  This game is such a refreshing departure from that.
*goat starer* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 12:46 am	Logan Kurtiss said: goat starer said: i didn't say you were.. travelling inthe south is just as hard as scouting if you dont have a scout. You were doing end game activities when you were a noob.... that is just stupid. you always have a choice... there are multiple free taxi services run by all these nasty trolls you keep banging on about... Again, I must correct you.. I have said already, as well, that not everyone is trolls, but there are enough that it's an issue, and even if there weren't a lot, it doesn't take many when let to flame freely to make a place very unwelcoming. In this thread, for example, not everyone commenting is a troll, but you are the biggest one. What's more, every veteran agreeing that I have proven my point on trolls is going to remember you as one, so I may be leaving and you don't have to worry about offending me cause I won't be sticking around, but I assure you, others will remember. nobody in this thread is a troll other than you... post negative comments... react to advice negatively... you misquote people for flame purposes... you shout... you accuse the community of being trolls... you make totally unfounded accusations. These are the actions of a troll. As i pointed out early in this thread acusing you of being another player was hardly helpful and the people who did it (not me) may have helped to make you angry but your flaming, your trolling, your unpleasantness got you where you are. just calm down. if you are leaving leave... if not listen to some of the sage comments of your peers and in particular the people who have played a lot longer than you and then go back and play the game as it was intended.. not how you want it to be. the weird thing is... I actually think you are Juan now... Shouldn't have called JS and Necro on it earlier. they are clearly more perceptive than I. The fact that you told everyine you didnt like the game.. announced tat you were leaving and then stayed around to see if you had started something tells me everything I need to know. the fact that your experience of a polite and helpful lobby is that everyone there is flaming you must surely tell you something about you rather than the lobby?
*JeeTeeOh* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 12:54 am	There are those who will look at Darkwind -- a game that, largely through one person's effort, has brought Car Wars to life in a way no other game even begins to approach -- and only see the bad. They'll have a lot to gripe about too, if they look with that in mind, and they will point to each item with indignant rage and demand to know why these things haven't yet been addressed to their satisfaction. However, there are also those who will look at Darkwind and marvel at the developer's efforts, reveling in the world he has created. They will see the game -- the whole of the game -- as a damned impressive feat; they will intuitively realize that in a world of corporately-produced, by-the-numbers products, something as unique as Darkwind is worth the requirements it places on them. Over time they will discover that the game evolves largely according to players' input; that a situation viewed as "game-breaking" by one person is, for others, a challenge to be overcome; and that those events that piss them off the most are also the events from which they can emerge bloody, scarred, perhaps enraged, but also with the will to conquer it the next time out. I count myself among the second group, as do most who appreciate the DW concept. This is probably because I looked for a turn-based vehicular combat game for so long that, when I finally made the discovery, I was willing to overlook (or work around) the flaws in order to enjoy the game as a whole. If I came across a phalanx of enemies that magically appeared on my rear bumper, I'd curse my gangers for paying too much attention to the ancient Motorhead tape they'd discovered instead of their surroundings, and write it into my "story" of the event. When my ganger had a third or fourth arm blown off in the same event, I imagined their shock and horror at having their bleeding stump blasted yet again in some cruel twist of godless irony. And when something truly was broken, and a bug caused the loss of something substantial -- and it probably happened to all of us at one time or another -- I contacted Sam and, when the bug was deemed responsible for my loss, found my stuff returned to me as if by magic. As I said, those in the first group will never be happy with this game. And Logan Kurtiss, you have my condolences, because the Darkwind experience can be so much more than you are choosing to make it. I understand that not everybody is as willing as I am to accept the little (and sometimes large) irritations that will probably forever be a part of DW, and that's okay because there are a zillion other offerings out there for them, and for you, and I wish you luck in finding something more to your liking. Me? I think I'll stick it out here, and on October 6th, when it's time to give Sam more of money, I'll do it happily. And as for the trolls? Get over it man. The internet is one giant freaking troll, and frankly your rants in the lobby remind me of a quaint little saying: "When you point the finger at somebody, there are three of 'em pointing right back at you." Probably a ramble by now. But my point is in there. Thanks for the game, Sam.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 12:55 am	goat starer said: Logan Kurtiss said: goat starer said: i didn't say you were.. travelling inthe south is just as hard as scouting if you dont have a scout. You were doing end game activities when you were a noob.... that is just stupid. you always have a choice... there are multiple free taxi services run by all these nasty trolls you keep banging on about... Again, I must correct you.. I have said already, as well, that not everyone is trolls, but there are enough that it's an issue, and even if there weren't a lot, it doesn't take many when let to flame freely to make a place very unwelcoming. In this thread, for example, not everyone commenting is a troll, but you are the biggest one. What's more, every veteran agreeing that I have proven my point on trolls is going to remember you as one, so I may be leaving and you don't have to worry about offending me cause I won't be sticking around, but I assure you, others will remember. nobody in this thread is a troll other than you... post negative comments... react to advice negatively... you misquote people for flame purposes... you shout... you accuse the community of being trolls... you make totally unfounded accusations. These are the actions of a troll. As i pointed out early in this thread acusing you of being another player was hardly helpful and the people who did it (not me) may have helped to make you angry but your flaming, your trolling, your unpleasantness got you where you are. just calm down. if you are leaving leave... if not listen to some of the sage comments of your peers and in particular the people who have played a lot longer than you and then go back and play the game as it was intended.. not how you want it to be. the weird thing is... I actually think you are Juan now... Shouldn't have called JS and Necro on it earlier. they are clearly more perceptive than I. I am NOT JUAN!! and I am getting really offended at folks calling me someone else... You wanna know who I am? Go look at my channel on Twitch.tv: Vizhonary... Juan is not my name.. I have no idea who this Juan is, but I am definitely offended at being called a name that is not only not mine but clearly intended to be an insult, and what's more, why don't you ask Sam if I am Juan or not? He would know who I am through my becoming Premium here and if Juan was ever Premium, he'd know who Juan is too, and could definitely confirm I am NOT Juan, so I'd really appriciate it if all you A-holes would stop calling me Juan. If I remind you of this Juan and he got anywhere near the treatment I been getting in this thread, then maybe he had some valid points and a second person giving similar criticism is just backing this Juan up, but clearly you folks are too dense to fathom the idea that two different people might have similar perspectives, eh?... Of the billions of people in this world, if two similar comments appear, they must be the same person? You are clearly a dumb troll.
Joel Autobaun Posted Oct 3, 2014, 12:55 am	Logan Kurtiss said: I have also already written up my scoldingly negative review on Steam of this game and most of my negativity is the lack of expectation that anything will ever get fixed and the trolls. Oh yea?  Well then nothing to lose... You are weak.  This game is not for you.  You are the classic old bitter gamer who cannot have FUN, who is constantly in search of a new game to WORK on and never PLAY. You can never go backwards...never suffer a loss and you think you are so smart you can take on the hardest part of the game inside a month of starting and have the right to bitch when it blows up in your face. You do sound like Juan, you sound like you want the solo scouting in BL even easier so you can make endless millions to some meaningless end.  Its about having fun, Sam usually refunds crap you lost because of a bug he hasn't fixed yet.  The rest you eat and roleplay the loss.  YES PLAY the game super nerd.
Joel Autobaun Posted Oct 3, 2014, 12:58 am	Logan Kurtiss said: Crazy AL said: Well, hopefully you keep an eye out on this post whether you actually post or not because I believe I'll be able to offer you some constructive criticism like you attempted to do for DW. I am older than you and my gaming history is much like yours. I have been playing games on the internet since they were text based MUDs all the way up through every popular MMO and highly rated single player game that I've been able to get my hands on and have the time to play so I hope (if you're still checking this post) that you at least respect my opinion like I've respected yours. The fact that you were scouting in BL is extremely suspect to me like it was to others reading this post. I am willing to acknowledge you have a high degree of gaming expertise, but I am not willing to admit you have gangers of any skill, nor a scout that has any business being in the southern triangle unless you're running single vehicle cargo runs with a fast car. As you can see to the left, I've been playing this game for a little while and I've played and STILL play Car Wars with my weekly gaming buddies. *I* still find BL challenging with a my best scout who has a 250+ scouting skill. That you would even try BL scouting with the skill level of your gangers was your first mistake. Most of what you described that went wrong that wasn't bug related sounds like a lousy skilled scout. Many, if not all will agree with me concerning BL and it's unfortunate that your prior gaming experience was actually somewhat of a detriment to your experience here in DW. I appreciate the fact that you posted your grievances rather than leaving without saying anything. Hopefully your comments will contribute to a better overall experience here for the players who stay. 1st.. I was not scouting in the badlands.. I was traveling in an unarmed ride from GW to BL. Second, I still play MU*s sometimes as they have a level of RP and detail you can't find anyplace else (yet). Wow... u are complaining about it being too hard travelling in an unarmed ride.  You are getting some major blow back on your steam review.  You have earned and enemy for life there.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 12:59 am	Joel Autobaun said: Logan Kurtiss said: I have also already written up my scoldingly negative review on Steam of this game and most of my negativity is the lack of expectation that anything will ever get fixed and the trolls. Oh yea?  Well then nothing to lose... You are weak.  This game is not for you.  You are the classic old bitter gamer who cannot have FUN, who is constantly in search of a new game to WORK on and never PLAY. You can never go backwards...never suffer a loss and you think you are so smart you can take on the hardest part of the game inside a month of starting and have the right to bitch when it blows up in your face. You do sound like Juan, you sound like you want the solo scouting in BL even easier so you can make endless millions to some meaningless end.  Its about having fun, Sam usually refunds crap you lost because of a bug he hasn't fixed yet.  The rest you eat and roleplay the loss.  YES PLAY the game super nerd. For the 4th time, I was NOT scouting, and just cause I am already leaving does not make your trolling any less of an offense than if I was staying and once again, you hurt your rep not with me, but with other people already playing here that read this forum... You are another Troll, congratz. And I don't care if I sound like someone else. Nor do I expect anything to be easier... I expect the way the game plays to be fair and debugged and it is neither, but again, all stuff I've already said that you clearly couldn't be bothered to read.
Joel Autobaun Posted Oct 3, 2014, 12:59 am	goat starer said: Logan Kurtiss said: Ragnak said: Well if one was to go by the response of those on this board then I do believe Logan you have proven your point of trolls. Some of the responses have been out of line but the norm for those who have posted. Darkwind is like every other game and game forum where you will always see the like. Overall, I would hope that the maturity level was a bit higher here, and my experience is that it used to be that way, however this thread seems to going in the opposite direction. Darkwind is both challenging and punishing. I expect that in a game which is an open sandbox and thus allows a player to roam wherever. I can start a new squad wherever I can get a guy to and start scouting on the fly. This blurs the line between a challenge versus a punishment and it is up to the player to know the difference. The player has the responsibility in this game to manage their risks. Does the game identify and prepare you for how the danger levels increase as you go South? No, it doesn't and this should be seriously looked at as an area to improve upon. That said, in the end, a player should be asking themselves if they are prepared for the endeavors they are taking on. Should this be the end of your time in Darkwind then I feel the community will suffer a loss. In the times I have been on and read the comments in the client, you have always tried to be friendly and useful to all players. You have tried to help the game when you could and that is what all of us should be trying to do. Rags Sorry, but I am so gone... done playing.. Done spending a dime here... And the reactions on this thread are the kick in the ass that has helped me out the door.. You can thank your community members for helping seal the fate that I will no longer be playing. I have also already written up my scoldingly negative review on Steam of this game and most of my negativity is the lack of expectation that anything will ever get fixed and the trolls. bless you... you join a game... immediately start running around trying to play the most difficult bits with inadequate gangers, inadequate experience and inadequate patience. This is clearly not the game for you. and ragnak.. If you cant spot a rather unpleasant troll when you see one you should refrain from comment. This is a thread started by someone with nothing constructive or positive to say... who reacted with nothing positive to the first comments and frankly earned the 'Juan' label JS gave him. The game will be much the richer for losing another kid with no ida of how turn based games work and no patience to play the game at the level he is at. Yea but he doesnt let up...cant wait to find his steam review, hes so effin done.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:04 am	Joel Autobaun said: Logan Kurtiss said: Crazy AL said: Well, hopefully you keep an eye out on this post whether you actually post or not because I believe I'll be able to offer you some constructive criticism like you attempted to do for DW. I am older than you and my gaming history is much like yours. I have been playing games on the internet since they were text based MUDs all the way up through every popular MMO and highly rated single player game that I've been able to get my hands on and have the time to play so I hope (if you're still checking this post) that you at least respect my opinion like I've respected yours. The fact that you were scouting in BL is extremely suspect to me like it was to others reading this post. I am willing to acknowledge you have a high degree of gaming expertise, but I am not willing to admit you have gangers of any skill, nor a scout that has any business being in the southern triangle unless you're running single vehicle cargo runs with a fast car. As you can see to the left, I've been playing this game for a little while and I've played and STILL play Car Wars with my weekly gaming buddies. *I* still find BL challenging with a my best scout who has a 250+ scouting skill. That you would even try BL scouting with the skill level of your gangers was your first mistake. Most of what you described that went wrong that wasn't bug related sounds like a lousy skilled scout. Many, if not all will agree with me concerning BL and it's unfortunate that your prior gaming experience was actually somewhat of a detriment to your experience here in DW. I appreciate the fact that you posted your grievances rather than leaving without saying anything. Hopefully your comments will contribute to a better overall experience here for the players who stay. 1st.. I was not scouting in the badlands.. I was traveling in an unarmed ride from GW to BL. Second, I still play MU*s sometimes as they have a level of RP and detail you can't find anyplace else (yet). Wow... u are complaining about it being too hard travelling in an unarmed ride.  You are getting some major blow back on your steam review.  You have earned and enemy for life there. I'm not playing here, so I don't care if you wanna be my enemy, and I didn't complain about it being hard.. I complain at it being brutally unfair and punishing... and travelling in an unarmed ride is exactly what veterans suggested every time traveling gets mentioned because unarmed ride is lighter, faster, and has a lower CR so should attract less opposition, and my issue is not how many I faced but that there was NO way to avoid being blown to snot. I know, it's the scouting skill.. .All about the scouting skill... It shouldn't be... As stated in the video link I gave that you clearly didn't watch because you don't get what or where my complaints are, if a game is inconsistant in it's rules or poses situations on a player that there is nothing they can do to deal with, no way to get out of and hurts them, that is punishing, not challenging.... I want a challenge... I don't want to be abused. And as far as never going back? You have NO F-ing clue what you are talking about because I regularly go back and play good games... I still dust off the original X-Com at times and it's BRUTALLY challenging but not punishing... I have games that date back to before the PC that I still have machines to play them on. I do go back and play good games all the time, so your flames once again go unfounded and are libelous.
*goat starer* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:04 am	it might be! You might have done it all when you were asleep.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:06 am	Grimm Sykes said: JS said: Logan Kurtiss said: goat starer said: You have clearly been playing another game old bean. I don't know what the lobby is like in your time zone but it is civil and helpful when I am on. Having played the game for 7 years I see no game breaking bugs. This game is the best car wars reimagining around and most of the older players are hardcore Car wars players who found the game through jimmys site and stayed. The game has a steep learning curve but becomes if anything rather easy. That said it is a game that requires patience, creativity, teamwork, tactics, role play and a tough hide to get the most out of it. If that isn't you... And lots of people find it isnt, then it's not the game for you. You list  several trait requirements that just support my claim that this is punishing... and I've experienced more than one game breaking bug, as well as events that stack the odds so against me that only pure luck will save anything, and the enemy are already in firing range when it starts. Yeah, I know.. The veteran answer to this is, "Well, you got ambushed" but that's BS... That's the game trying to create no-win situations and I don't believe in nor do I enjoy playing no win situations... and it's not a high learning curve.. It's actually kinda easy... It's that there is no apparent difficulty curve that fits new players so the answer again, often given by veterans is to tell new players that for months, they should just train their gangers, stick to in town events and only go out when their hand is being held by a veteran, which is NOT what I am looking for in a game. And teamwork?.. If I can't play a game solo and I must depend on others to get anything done, I am also not interested. Finally, I been flamed repeatedly.. I mention a bug in the lobby within my first few days and everyone there assumes I'm a moron and starts telling me how to do exactly what I am telling them does not work and is bugged, claiming left and right that it's not a problem becasuse they are not experiencing, so I message Sam Directly with no response or aknowledgement, so eventually I just posted it to the forum with a video to demonstrate the bug and low and behold Sam finds the problem really quick once it's actually shown that I am not out of F-ing mind and found a REAL bug. That's a lobby full of fanboy trolls, and what's worse, one of them I will not name even asked me to make a video to prove one of my points and then accused me of trying to pad my viewer count when I created just such a video on twitch for them to see and they refused to watch it.... There is nothing supportive, or friendly about all that... And what's more, the person, again unnamed that has demanding I need their help and they want to help noobs is one of the biggest jerks I've run into. There are a few cool people I've met... Most are not, and it only takes a couple trolls in a chatroom not being kept in check by moderators or marshals as they call them on here to make a whole chatroom very UNINVITING. Hello Juan. Do you ever tire of this? Can't be me, I never asked anyone to make a video, and no one requested I watch one. Nope.. Not you and I thought I was pretty clear that two people I was referencing but not naming were two different people, but since you had to show up, and voice your objection to that being you, I will finger you as the pirate that doesn't believe in copyright laws and told me point blank you steal almost every game you play.
*goat starer* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:08 am	Logan Kurtiss said: Joel Autobaun said: Logan Kurtiss said: Crazy AL said: Well, hopefully you keep an eye out on this post whether you actually post or not because I believe I'll be able to offer you some constructive criticism like you attempted to do for DW. I am older than you and my gaming history is much like yours. I have been playing games on the internet since they were text based MUDs all the way up through every popular MMO and highly rated single player game that I've been able to get my hands on and have the time to play so I hope (if you're still checking this post) that you at least respect my opinion like I've respected yours. The fact that you were scouting in BL is extremely suspect to me like it was to others reading this post. I am willing to acknowledge you have a high degree of gaming expertise, but I am not willing to admit you have gangers of any skill, nor a scout that has any business being in the southern triangle unless you're running single vehicle cargo runs with a fast car. As you can see to the left, I've been playing this game for a little while and I've played and STILL play Car Wars with my weekly gaming buddies. *I* still find BL challenging with a my best scout who has a 250+ scouting skill. That you would even try BL scouting with the skill level of your gangers was your first mistake. Most of what you described that went wrong that wasn't bug related sounds like a lousy skilled scout. Many, if not all will agree with me concerning BL and it's unfortunate that your prior gaming experience was actually somewhat of a detriment to your experience here in DW. I appreciate the fact that you posted your grievances rather than leaving without saying anything. Hopefully your comments will contribute to a better overall experience here for the players who stay. 1st.. I was not scouting in the badlands.. I was traveling in an unarmed ride from GW to BL. Second, I still play MU*s sometimes as they have a level of RP and detail you can't find anyplace else (yet). Wow... u are complaining about it being too hard travelling in an unarmed ride.  You are getting some major blow back on your steam review.  You have earned and enemy for life there. I'm not playing here, so I don't care if you wanna be my enemy, and I didn't complain about it being hard.. I complain at it being brutally unfair and punishing... and travelling in an unarmed ride is exactly what veterans suggested every time traveling gets mentioned because unarmed ride is lighter, faster, and has a lower CR so should attract less opposition, and my issue is not how many I faced but that there was NO way to avoid being blown to snot. I know, it's the scouting skill.. .All about the scouting skill... It shouldn't be... As stated in the video link I gave that you clearly didn't watch because you don't get what or where my complaints are, if a game is inconsistant in it's rules or poses situations on a player that there is nothing they can do to deal with, no way to get out of and hurts them, that is punishing, not challenging.... I want a challenge... I don't want to be abused. And as far as never going back? You have NO F-ing clue what you are talking about because I regularly go back and play good games... I still dust off the original X-Com at times and it's BRUTALLY challenging but not punishing... I have games that date back to before the PC that I still have machines to play them on. I do go back and play good games all the time, so your flames once again go unfounded and are libelous. its NOT all about the scouting skill. Its about a combination of the scouting skill, map, vehicle, enemy fame etc... and you maxed out loads of those factors by choosing to drive around in an unarmed car without a scout in the south. When vets tell you to do that they tell you to do it in the north... not start taxi runs to firelight. That said.. most vets will survive in a 0 scout unarmed car because they know how to use tricks, tactics and terrain to beat even close ambushes. If i do that and fail (and it happens) i think... GOOD.. the game can still beat me if i dont show it respect. That is a good game... a challenging game... and please... did you just pull the "ooh a naughty troll libelled me!" line?
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:11 am	goat starer said: its NOT all about the scouting skill. Its about a combination of the scouting skill, map, vehicle, enemy fame etc... and you maxed out loads of those factors by choosing to drive around in an unarmed car without a scout in the south. When vets tell you to do that they tell you to do it in the north... not start taxi runs to firelight. That said.. most vets will survive in a 0 scout unarmed car because they know how to use tricks, tactics and terrain to beat even close ambushes. If i do that and fail (and it happens) i think... GOOD.. the game can still beat me if i dont show it respect. That is a good game... a challenging game... Okay, smarty pants, why don't you tell me what I could done HERE: S672470? And after I already proved my ability to get out of between a rock and a hardplace here: S672501.
Ragnak Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:11 am	The game should be providing clues and info on when a noob can branch out and what to expect. The game does fail in this regard.
Joel Autobaun Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:14 am	Just gtfoutta here
*goat starer* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:14 am	Logan Kurtiss said: goat starer said: its NOT all about the scouting skill. Its about a combination of the scouting skill, map, vehicle, enemy fame etc... and you maxed out loads of those factors by choosing to drive around in an unarmed car without a scout in the south. When vets tell you to do that they tell you to do it in the north... not start taxi runs to firelight. That said.. most vets will survive in a 0 scout unarmed car because they know how to use tricks, tactics and terrain to beat even close ambushes. If i do that and fail (and it happens) i think... GOOD.. the game can still beat me if i dont show it respect. That is a good game... a challenging game... Okay, smarty pants, why don't you tell me what I could done HERE: S672470? And after I already proved my ability to get out of between a rock and a hardplace here: S672501. when you turned left you should have continued right round the large hill rather than jinking right and heading into the broken ground... you should than have made it to the edge of the canyon... slowed to 20mph.... dropped off and run away... DADA! oh you didnt. did you get these the wring way round? driving off cliffs at 70mph with an exposed engine aint exactly clever is it. your drivig is completely erratic...
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:15 am	Ragnak said: The game should be providing clues and info on when a noob can branch out and what to expect. The game does fail in this regard. I don't even mind the lack of clues... What I cannot tolerate in a game, ever, is a no win situation.. That's always my rage quit moment, is when a game poses me with a situation that is suddenly way out of the scope of everything else I've faced and gives me zero chance of getting out of it... I been killed in no win situations, most of them caused by bugs repeatedly in this game. Yesterday was the last straw.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:17 am	goat starer said: Logan Kurtiss said: goat starer said: its NOT all about the scouting skill. Its about a combination of the scouting skill, map, vehicle, enemy fame etc... and you maxed out loads of those factors by choosing to drive around in an unarmed car without a scout in the south. When vets tell you to do that they tell you to do it in the north... not start taxi runs to firelight. That said.. most vets will survive in a 0 scout unarmed car because they know how to use tricks, tactics and terrain to beat even close ambushes. If i do that and fail (and it happens) i think... GOOD.. the game can still beat me if i dont show it respect. That is a good game... a challenging game... Okay, smarty pants, why don't you tell me what I could done HERE: S672470? And after I already proved my ability to get out of between a rock and a hardplace here: S672501. when you turned left you should have continued right round the large hill rather than jinking right and heading into the broken ground... you should than have made it to the edge of the canyon... slowed to 20mph.... dropped off and run away... DADA! im actualy amazed you lost that one. I have no idea what map you are talking about cause I didn't see any canyons on that map... The map I saw canyons on is the one I got away and I did EXACTLY what you suggest.... And that car that shot me was going to shoot me no matter where I went and I didn't start to straighten out till he was already hitting me... and my hope was to make it over the hill and put that between me and him, whereas if I'd stayed right, he would just come around the hill behind me and kept shooting me, for more turns that he would have if I'd made it 1 more turn and gotten over that hill.
*JeeTeeOh* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:18 am	Can't believe I took the time to insert a reasonable reply into this mess. Mindless rage is okay, but if the personal attacks continue this thread will be locked. Because, you know, decency.
Ragnak Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:18 am	Good thing you hadnt faced the slavers from an SS scout then....
*goat starer* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:22 am	Logan Kurtiss said: goat starer said: Logan Kurtiss said: goat starer said: its NOT all about the scouting skill. Its about a combination of the scouting skill, map, vehicle, enemy fame etc... and you maxed out loads of those factors by choosing to drive around in an unarmed car without a scout in the south. When vets tell you to do that they tell you to do it in the north... not start taxi runs to firelight. That said.. most vets will survive in a 0 scout unarmed car because they know how to use tricks, tactics and terrain to beat even close ambushes. If i do that and fail (and it happens) i think... GOOD.. the game can still beat me if i dont show it respect. That is a good game... a challenging game... Okay, smarty pants, why don't you tell me what I could done HERE: S672470? And after I already proved my ability to get out of between a rock and a hardplace here: S672501. when you turned left you should have continued right round the large hill rather than jinking right and heading into the broken ground... you should than have made it to the edge of the canyon... slowed to 20mph.... dropped off and run away... DADA! im actualy amazed you lost that one. I have no idea what map you are talking about cause I didn't see any canyons on that map... The map I saw canyons on is the one I got away and I did EXACTLY what you suggest.... And that car that shot me was going to shoot me no matter where I went and I didn't start to straighten out till he was already hitting me... and my hope was to make it over the hill and put that between me and him, whereas if I'd stayed right, he would just come around the hill behind me and kept shooting me, for more turns that he would have if I'd made it 1 more turn and gotten over that hill. you put the numbers the wrong way round old bean... on the other one... straight over into the dried up river bed... and you are away. you lost loads of speed turining exposing your side to the voyager... voys will outrun.. you needed to put a terrain feature in the way. neighet of these were anything like the most challenging ambushes you can expect. If these seemed hard this is definitely the wrong game.
Grimm Sykes Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:22 am	Logan Kurtiss said: If the person I am complaining to actually listens, they would find most of my complaints are constructive criticism and not flaming or trolling... Careful, I've found that a lot of people here can't follow a subject if it has more then 2 sentences. Also try to keep it less then 5 words per sentence and less then 9 letters per word, or else they get confused and think your saying the exact opposite of what you are.
Joel Autobaun Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:24 am	omg the TEARS.... this game is harder than that dos game XCOM....waaaaaaa Xcom - Hide behind stuff and shoot shoot shoot until u get missile launcher... game ends quickly thereafter. (Its called the RGM in our game)
*goat starer* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:24 am	or what about going left under the bridge? that looks like a pretty safe bet as well.
*goat starer* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:26 am	and best of all i would suggest that the very last thing you should have done was turn your 6 point damaged side armour to be the side the enemy behind would hit... that was foolish.
Joel Autobaun Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:26 am	This u logan? Synthorange Tan Teck Weng
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:27 am	goat starer said: or what about going left under the bridge? that looks like a pretty safe bet as well. Look again... There are two chasers under the bridge. There are 4 chasers there... Two right behind me on the road that opened fire at like turn 3, and there are two right under the bridge infront of me.
*goat starer* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:28 am	Logan Kurtiss said: goat starer said: or what about going left under the bridge? that looks like a pretty safe bet as well. Look again... There are two chasers under the bridge. no there are not... there are 2 guys in the riverbed... noone under the bridge there is only 1 guy behind you.. there are only 4 vehicles listed in the event log. there are 2 in the riverbed,.. one behind you and you.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:29 am	goat starer said: Logan Kurtiss said: goat starer said: or what about going left under the bridge? that looks like a pretty safe bet as well. Look again... There are two chasers under the bridge. no there are not... there are 2 guys in the riverbed... noone under the bridge Under the bridge is IN the riverbed, that puts two enemy in the direction you are telling me I should be going.
*goat starer* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:33 am	Logan Kurtiss said: goat starer said: Logan Kurtiss said: goat starer said: or what about going left under the bridge? that looks like a pretty safe bet as well. Look again... There are two chasers under the bridge. no there are not... there are 2 guys in the riverbed... noone under the bridge Under the bridge is IN the riverbed, that puts two enemy in thedirection you are telling me I should be going. no it doesnt.. you go left under the bridge.... and then the bridge is between you and them.. then you run away. Given that you dont know how many cars were behind you, how many enemy there were or where the enemy cars were its a bit hard to take this seriously. http://www.dark-wind.com/index.php?page=gang.php&id=51600
Joel Autobaun Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:34 am	lmao... Watch the Video guys. unarmed PU (I lost many when I was a noob too) And totally could have got away.  Cya Logan enjoy... hatofull boyfriend(about 20 down) on the list of Logans games
Necrotech Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:37 am	After reviewing that event, I saw many mistakes made. Initial placement.. Where you spawned itself was a dead indication of a an ambush. Closer to those hills would suited you better. Also on initial start, you jerked the wheel too hard, lost a ton of acceleration going into the gulch. A player with a little more experience would have known also that you can't climb sand very well at all, plus the angles you had attempted, would have made it impossible. But more critically, Dropping your front end off of a cliff, with an exposed engine, onto stone, was a seriously bad manuever. Second part - Straight down the edge of the riverbed would have done it and home free.... There is more, but those are highlights of why. To be honest, you more chances to get away easily, than not.
Grimm Sykes Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:40 am	Logan Kurtiss said: Nope.. Not you and I thought I was pretty clear that two people I was referencing but not naming were two different people, but since you had to show up, and voice your objection to that being you, I will finger you as the pirate that doesn't believe in copyright laws and told me point blank you steal almost every game you play. I pirate, I do not steal, and I am proud of it. if it was theft, the original owner would be at a loss.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:45 am	Grimm Sykes said: Logan Kurtiss said: Nope.. Not you and I thought I was pretty clear that two people I was referencing but not naming were two different people, but since you had to show up, and voice your objection to that being you, I will finger you as the pirate that doesn't believe in copyright laws and told me point blank you steal almost every game you play. I pirate, I do not steal, and I am proud of it. if it was theft, the original owner would be at a loss. Yes you do.. If you are refusing to pay anyone for their work, you are stealing from them... As much as I don't like the copyright laws the way they are, if I were to start making games and you pirated my game when you damned well could have paid for it or bought it legitimately, I would feel like you were stealing from me in the fact that you are enjoying my creation without reimbursing me for my effort. What's more, being a pirate is being a crimnal, period, so you are proud of being an outlaw... You might as well be bragging about embezzling money from a company you work for. My attitude toward Pirating is a lot like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfZv_lPwBFI though I am actually a little more flexible than their view in that I don't mind the idea of try before you buy, but if you are going to play it, you should pay it.
*Longo* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 2:02 am	Joel Autobaun said: lmao... Watch the Video guys. unarmed PU (I lost many when I was a noob too) And totally could have got away.  Cya Logan enjoy... hatofull boyfriend(about 20 down) on the list of Logans games Joel, you jerk. I just had hernia surgery this morning and I can't stop laughing!! Back to discussion - Kami - Sorry to hear you do not like Dark-wind. It appears in your list of Steam games that there are alot of games you have purchased that you did not like (Based upon how little you played them.) Is there anything I can help you with, as there is something that keeps bringing you back to the forums for alot of verbal judo? I am a 7 year player. I like to think that I am one of the better players to have played Dark-wind. I have had ups and downs, wins and losses, lost gangers that can never be replaced. I've built and run camps, been in every town, PVPed, done town events, been bullied, player killed bullies, player killed people I had a vendetta for, and been player killed for no reason. I am still here playing. If you just want to criticize I think you have said your peace. If you have valid questions on anything specific, please let me know.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 2:28 am	goat starer said: Logan Kurtiss said: goat starer said: Logan Kurtiss said: goat starer said: or what about going left under the bridge? that looks like a pretty safe bet as well. Look again... There are two chasers under the bridge. no there are not... there are 2 guys in the riverbed... noone under the bridge Under the bridge is IN the riverbed, that puts two enemy in thedirection you are telling me I should be going. no it doesnt.. you go left under the bridge.... and then the bridge is between you and them.. then you run away. Given that you dont know how many cars were behind you, how many enemy there were or where the enemy cars were its a bit hard to take this seriously. http://www.dark-wind.com/index.php?page=gang.php&id=51600 I have gone back and looked at the whole thing again, and going left under the bridge would have got me attack even sooner by the two in the riverbed and in the playback there is a car missing... I was sure there were two cars behind me and not 1. Also, I know for a fact that the car that is still in the playback did not start with it's ass end raised off the ground like it does in the playback... I question the accuracy of the starting conditions in the playback. When I looked around, and read the openning enemy report I am pretty damned sure it was 2 pickups, 2 different cars with 1 pickup and that Voyager behind me and infront of me was the two guys in the riverbed with a cliff infront of them... The longest I could stay out of their firing arch was to go right, like I did and make them go around that cliff... If I'd gone left, they woulda been lined up on me the moment they reached the edge of the cliff.
Grimm Sykes Posted Oct 3, 2014, 2:35 am	Playbacks have been glitched for a while
d0dger Posted Oct 3, 2014, 3:01 am	Logan Kurtiss said: What's more, being a pirate is being a crimnal, period, so you are proud of being an outlaw... You might as well be bragging about embezzling money from a company you work for. Clearly you missed the night he was bragging in the lobby about buying clothes at Wal-Mart, wearing them, then returning his dirty laundry to them for a full refund on a regular basis.
Groovelle Posted Oct 3, 2014, 3:17 am	First of all, let's all stop calling this guy Juan. I like Juan. Second, I've been here a while and nothing, bugs and all, that I've seen in Darkwind is as unfair as Xcom's psionics against the player. Save scum much? This game is difficult. It'd be like ironmanning the first Xcom every time you played it, even when you were a noob. Makes it feel better about how you've played when you finally make it. I don't think there's a player here that hasn't lost something south of the northern triangle when they've gone. I did once - bad series of spawns against my only hotrod. But instead of whining or crying about it I said, yep, down south is nuts, and I just don't go down there without a good reason. This is one of the better communities playing a game I've been a part of, and the fact that you lost one car there IS your warning. You didn't pull a goat and lose a whole gang in a single explosion silly goat you lost a scout. What other way should this game tell an admitted single player that this area is off limits. You didn't lose your whole gang after knowing the risks - pulling a Goat, you didn't lose your whole gang after not knowing the risks - what you're a afraid of, you lost a scout in a bad area. What game Wouldn't kill off your scout in the worst area in the game? Really? I can't think of a single hard game that wouldn't put a challenge on your noobly scout for venturing to the hard area early. What I'm saying is, this game is fair. Very Fair. In both my scavenger and main gangs I have lost 1 single ganger in a muscle car in a scout. What does that mean? Following vet advice keeps you alive. What also does it say? Being ####y(too bold) and treating a HMG as a MG will get even the safest ride breached. And that lesson was so hard learned it's burned into my memory unlike any game I've played previously or since. Anyway, see ya. Hope you aren't too vocal in the making of upcoming games I'm interested in because I like to be punished for going where I shouldn't be. And I know I shouldn't be in Badlands.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Oct 3, 2014, 3:26 am	Logan Kurtiss said: JS said: Hello Juan. Do you ever tire of this? Pucker up and kiss my backside... I'm not this fricken Juan and I resent being accused of being someone else that you all already clearly have an issue with... infact, I was accused of being Juan about 20 times when I was trying to explain the bug that everyone denied existed till i proved it by video and Sam found it. I am a player that arrived a month ago, went Premium and am a very disappointed paying customer and not a returning person you have a grudge against. And @Necro.... I'm a 46 year old gamer that has been into both tabletop RPGs and playing video games since '78... I learn very fast.. I am sick of both being accused of knowing too much to be a noob or being too noob to know the difference between a bug and a feature... I can't be both and both are insulting to me. Heck, I'll go as far as tooting my horn here and outright tell you folks I'm a certified genius and not the stupid noob some of you seem to think I am.. I have also been a playtester for Steve Jackson Games and White Wolf Studios as well as a beta tester on many an MMO.... I am not new to games, confused about what is or isn't a bug, and I have a very good idea of what makes or breaks a game, as I been studying game design for 25 years now. You are making their case that you are Juan.  Or even me!  (He's not me and I doubt that he' JV for the record) Many of us here are also ex-play testers and beta testers.  Myself: SJG stole one of my game designs and turned it into a Car Wars product (unnamed here as many vets already have heard this story) Those things don't make you better than anyone else here as most of us are in the same boat and age range (unless it's a Steamy member.  Idk about that demographic) I've never found a no win situation.  Winning is a matter of player involvement (some would call it skill but that's egotistical).  Try escaping 6 muscle cars in a Hearse with 4 blown tires and starting from an ambush spawn.  Or in a fully loaded lorry with a 1L engine.  What some see as "no win" are actually cases of "I haven't figured out how to win it yet".  YET.  Some methods of combatting a "no win" situation will dawn on you a year or two later after playing the game 2,000 to 3,000 hours.  (Or sooner). I'm not trying to convince you to stay.  If you don't like the game, by all mean, feel free to leave.  We will be sad to lose one warm body, no one will force you to stay.
Grimm Sykes Posted Oct 3, 2014, 3:27 am	d0dger said: Logan Kurtiss said: What's more, being a pirate is being a crimnal, period, so you are proud of being an outlaw... You might as well be bragging about embezzling money from a company you work for. Clearly you missed the night he was bragging in the lobby about buying clothes at Wal-Mart, wearing them, then returning his dirty laundry to them for a full refund on a regular basis. Didnt say i did, I said I could, sorry, I know sentences over 5 words is a problem, but really you should try harder to know or at least remember what was said before talking about it.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Oct 3, 2014, 3:41 am	So you followed protocol for these bugs and sent a PM to Sam? Because: When a real bug kills a ganger, he resurects them. When a bug kills a car he gives it back to you. I've personally viewed some of your events in the past when you were crying "Bug" and all I saw was inexperience.  The one bug I saw that you posted a video on doesn't and didn't occur on my machine.  It was from your personal use of a video rendering program that none of my 4 currently functional computers use. Not that bugs don't exist.  But things that I see many people calling bugs, aren't bugs.  Like the AI ramming a parked car in an arena. A BUG is when you can load up 20 cars with gangers that are not yours (the enemy NPCs in fact) and scout nonstop without risk with guys who have 300+ skill.  (Thanks go to Sam for fixing this one!) A question...  When you scout, are you playing right and taking a 50+ skill scout with you?  Or are you just assuming you are so cool that you don't need a scout?  In fact... The whole concept of solo scouting with less than 3 months game time is very dangerous and not recommended.  I seems to me that people are ignoring all the advice out there and then saying it's a bug when they die. Logan Kurtiss said: *Synyster Gates* said: I can't help but think that Logan is just a critical player, wanting and hoping for this game to be a perfect copy of Car Wars, in action. nope.jpg I'd like to point out that yesterday he claimed that the game is always unfair and the deck is always stacked against the player(s). And yet, the event that has spawned all this trash talk of the game is supposedly the first event in which he's been in an unwinnable situation. All I can say is, bad scout, bad roll, it happens. Welcome to the usual Badlands odds. I didn't claim that and it's a total misquote... I said the game is brutally unfair at times, most notably referring to bugs getting characters killed, which I have already seen others on this very thread confirm sometimes happen, and when it more than once in a row starts me with the enemy already in firing range on me and with little change to get away. My last two events are both examples of this if you want to see them. 2 events back, 7 cars on 1, 2 of them in firing range, infront of me, from turn 1, and I got away from that one, but then, right after that, 4 on 1 with, again, two cars lined up and in range to shoot from turn 1 and after just two shots demoralized my ganger. I've had a car bottoming out with the ground.. No wall, no sudden hill, not even a visible bump, destroy the front armor on a ride, destroy the engine and kill the driver all in one shot and the marshal that reviewed it agreed the whole thing was suspect and a bit extreme. I've seen cars that should be flipped completely over and turtled, suddenly reverse the direction they are rolling and pop up onto their wheels like they had springs in the side of the car to auto-right them when they roll. Also, yesterday, when I had not one, not two but three situations back to back I call extremely excessive in the brutality I was facing and well into the area of punishing, a fricken chaser ran across the bottom a lake and came out the other side in one piece, and I mean so deep you couldn't see the car at all in the water and by angling the camera and judging by the triangulation on the text, had to be at least 25 meters underwater. I've had my own rides suddenly and inexplicably, on flat ground, jump into the air like a an explosion went off under them when there was no enemy in range to even shoot at them and then land upside down, turtled by a bug. I am a bug magnet, and will outright state as much, but if Sam won't fix, review, or give restitution for game breaking bugs that cost me rides and drivers, then the game is brutally unfair... You wanna know why Steam users come and Steam users have mostly gone and the forum there is barely getting any attention?... It's for every reason I have given and on top of that, that there are veteran trolls in the lobby that are very qucik to tell anyone that has a problem to get lost, which isn't good for Sam, not good for the game, not good for the community and definitely not good for the game, and finally, the whole brutality of the game and how much the market has shifted to a CHR cost for the majority of what's on the market, it does not come across as truly Free2Play... It did when I first showed up, but since then, it has way changed, just over the last month but now, it looks a lot like Pay2Win. The game is not newbie friendly, IS very punishing, IS buggy, IS trolled, as has been proven in this very thread, and will continue to be a niche market for only the masochistic and truly tolerant players... or those that are the opposite of me and NEVER encounter bugs. PS: I am a critical player that is critical of games but I don't expect it to be a perfect copy of car wars as that would be getting into copyright infringement and unlike some of the players here (by what they told me) I am not a pirate that doesn't believe in copyrights and steals every game I play, so would not agree with plagarizing Car Wars... What I do expect is a game to work and have it's bugs addressed, but it is quite clear, from what I keep getting told, that most of the game breaking bugs this game has are not new, and will probably never be fixed. If I thought that bugs would be fixed, I'd bear with the bugs, but I do not like this as is, it is quite clear that Sam has a full time job and doesn't have the time to dedicate to fixing it and as I was told last night, he apparently refuses to let anyone that does have time and coding skills near it to fix it for him, so I have NO expectations that anything about this game I have issues with will ever change.
*Jagged Monkey* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 3:45 am	You could have ditched the car. Sometimes it's better to walk home.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Oct 3, 2014, 3:54 am	Logan Kurtiss said: I don't need prior experience to learn how to play this game... I been playing computer games for 38 years and have a collection of thousands of games... I like this one.  "I'm 46" and the above means "I been playing computer games since I was 46-38=8.  EIGHT? What games did they make for 8 year olds in 1976 ?  Yes, 38 years ago was 1976.  PONG? Really, as an 8 year old, what COMPUTER games did you play?  And on what system?  I don't think the first Apple or PC even existed unless you soldered it yourself and programmed it yourself back then.  Come on...
Tallus Posted Oct 3, 2014, 4:07 am	PONG was '72. Apple II is '77 with 4k of Ram for 1,300. TRS-80 got its nickname Trash 80s in the early 80s. I first got a Compaq in 82 or 83.
*SmokeyKilla* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 4:19 am	Punishing game.......this game is based on car wars where one bad dice roll can ruin your day. Its set in the solar apocalypse where gangs will kill you for a jerry can of water........how could it be anything but punishing? My gangers are at this moment, returning to their air conditioned bunker to watch their big screen tv while reclining in their feather quilted water beds while downing pineapple daquris with ice..........
*JeeTeeOh* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 4:45 am	*SmokeyKilla* said: Punishing game.......this game is based on car wars where one bad dice roll can ruin your day. I will never forget the night we spent an hour or so building our cars, handing Uncle Albert's back and forth because we hadn't gotten around to Xeroxing it yet, and then the event started. I charged my car toward the far side of the arena, failed a high-speed D3 turn, and rolled and burned without a shot fired. Got to watch the other guys have an epic firefight. Still stings.
Joel Autobaun Posted Oct 3, 2014, 4:56 am	lol Some of us make our own luck: Laser guided Rockets. To hit 4, damage 14d6(dual mini rocket pod and RL tucked in to turret with laser(tgtinglaseronly)) Many pissed off friends at "Joel" ...somethings never change..
*SmokeyKilla* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 6:17 am	Every scout or travel in DW can be 'Won' simply by choosing surrender, your gangers live and you lose some cars. Gangers in DW are your most valuable resource, chassis can easily be replaced.......a 10 spec + character not so easy.
Necrotech Posted Oct 3, 2014, 6:52 am	Let's see, exactly 40 here (1 day exactly older than Goat), @ age 6 - 7, I was playing on Vax terminals, Rogue and Star Trek.. later on Moria, Omega, Hack Age 8 - 9, my mother's students gave me a wide selection of games for apple II ( using Locksmith 4.1 or Release groups like "Cracked by the Ritz.. MMmmm GOOD Cracker")..... Dear god I'm old... *StCrispin* said: Logan Kurtiss said: I don't need prior experience to learn how to play this game... I been playing computer games for 38 years and have a collection of thousands of games... I like this one.  "I'm 46" and the above means "I been playing computer games since I was 46-38=8.  EIGHT? What games did they make for 8 year olds in 1976 ?  Yes, 38 years ago was 1976.  PONG? Really, as an 8 year old, what COMPUTER games did you play?  And on what system?  I don't think the first Apple or PC even existed unless you soldered it yourself and programmed it yourself back then.  Come on...
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 7:09 am	Necrotech said: Let's see, exactly 40 here (1 day exactly older than Goat), @ age 6 - 7, I was playing on Vax terminals, Rogue and Star Trek.. later on Moria, Omega, Hack Age 8 - 9, my mother's students gave me a wide selection of games for apple II ( using Locksmith 4.1 or Release groups like "Cracked by the Ritz.. MMmmm GOOD Cracker")..... Dear god I'm old... *StCrispin* said: Logan Kurtiss said: I don't need prior experience to learn how to play this game... I been playing computer games for 38 years and have a collection of thousands of games... I like this one.  "I'm 46" and the above means "I been playing computer games since I was 46-38=8.  EIGHT? What games did they make for 8 year olds in 1976 ?  Yes, 38 years ago was 1976.  PONG? Really, as an 8 year old, what COMPUTER games did you play?  And on what system?  I don't think the first Apple or PC even existed unless you soldered it yourself and programmed it yourself back then.  Come on... How about Adventure, Hammarabi, The original editions of TinyMUD, the original Ultima, Star Trek (haven't seen anything like the original in decades), NetTrek, Empire... I was also on a mainframe pretty early but in my case, UNIX servers, originaly by dialup to UCBerkeley on a 300 baud Acoustic modem of the old type you plug a phone into and ended up involved with the GNU project through the entire 90s with an account at MIT while LINUX was under development... Servers I usually hung out on were Wookumz, Apple-Gunkies or Archie at MIT. And yes, I played pong too, but I barely count that as playing games on computers and even consoles didn't actually exist in any volume till the Sears Game Machine/Atari 2600... My very first exposure to computers in any respectable amount of time was on a Commodore Pet and a Vic20, though the first computers I actually had in the house and I was the one that was always on them were an Atari 800, one of the first 500 made because my family ran a computer store that sold them along with the first game ever made for it - Star Raiders- , and an IBM XT. Don't be all trollishly condisending, StCrispen... If I was born in 68, yes, I was 8 when I first started working with computers, and in an age where no harddrives or external storage mandated anyone using them actually knew how to program the games they played. And just for the record, the games I was provided with pretty much from day 1 in my life playing games never had to be cracked and the only 'passed around' copies of games I got my hands on were because of my family being on the inside of the computer biz at the time and we occasionally got handed Betas from LucasArts or Electronic Arts to try and the final game seldom matched the betas I got to try, like for example, Behind Jaggie Lines was the beta for a very different game released years later as Rescue on Fractulus by Lucas Arts. I'll also note that my very first job, in highschool, involved programming an old CP/M Osborne system to do mailing lists for an advertising agency.
*goat starer* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 8:25 am	Necrotech said: Let's see, exactly 40 here (1 day exactly older than Goat), @ age 6 - 7, I was playing on Vax terminals, Rogue and Star Trek.. later on Moria, Omega, Hack Age 8 - 9, my mother's students gave me a wide selection of games for apple II ( using Locksmith 4.1 or Release groups like "Cracked by the Ritz.. MMmmm GOOD Cracker")..... Dear god I'm old... *StCrispin* said: Logan Kurtiss said: I don't need prior experience to learn how to play this game... I been playing computer games for 38 years and have a collection of thousands of games... I like this one.  "I'm 46" and the above means "I been playing computer games since I was 46-38=8.  EIGHT? What games did they make for 8 year olds in 1976 ?  Yes, 38 years ago was 1976.  PONG? Really, as an 8 year old, what COMPUTER games did you play?  And on what system?  I don't think the first Apple or PC even existed unless you soldered it yourself and programmed it yourself back then.  Come on... You soooooooooooo old
*goat starer* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 8:59 am	Logan Kurtiss said: goat starer said: Logan Kurtiss said: goat starer said: Logan Kurtiss said: goat starer said: or what about going left under the bridge? that looks like a pretty safe bet as well. Look again... There are two chasers under the bridge. no there are not... there are 2 guys in the riverbed... noone under the bridge Under the bridge is IN the riverbed, that puts two enemy in thedirection you are telling me I should be going. no it doesnt.. you go left under the bridge.... and then the bridge is between you and them.. then you run away. Given that you dont know how many cars were behind you, how many enemy there were or where the enemy cars were its a bit hard to take this seriously. http://www.dark-wind.com/index.php?page=gang.php&id=51600 I have gone back and looked at the whole thing again, and going left under the bridge would have got me attack even sooner by the two in the riverbed and in the playback there is a car missing... I was sure there were two cars behind me and not 1. Also, I know for a fact that the car that is still in the playback did not start with it's ass end raised off the ground like it does in the playback... I question the accuracy of the starting conditions in the playback. When I looked around, and read the openning enemy report I am pretty damned sure it was 2 pickups, 2 different cars with 1 pickup and that Voyager behind me and infront of me was the two guys in the riverbed with a cliff infront of them... The longest I could stay out of their firing arch was to go right, like I did and make them go around that cliff... If I'd gone left, they woulda been lined up on me the moment they reached the edge of the cliff. I'm sorry you are absolutely correct. All the people here who have played that event or similar day after day for 5, 6 or 7 years are wrong that it was entirely winnable. There is also obviously a bug in both the event playback and the event log that has removed the enemy cars that were making it unplayable from the record. It may even have been done maliciously by Sam to discredit you and send you out into the wilderness with peals of laughter and shouts of 'juan!' ringing in your ears. I But seriously dude. If you are 46 and have played all those games you should be well aware by now that a new players experience of a game is tempered by a level of ineptitude. How the hell do you think all these vets got their big gangs if every few events there us an impossible one? If you were being more reasonable on the taking sensible criticism of the things you did wrong, making less up and looking properly at the advice through the lense of people with more experience than you you would find people were a) better disposed to you and b) there might be some interesting learning for new guys from your experience..
*Boonwolf* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 9:34 am	So do we get milk and cookies now? This game will kick you in the balls and knee you in the face on the way down! Its not like you lost you 20 spec guy and 2 million in kit ask for advice rather than bashing the game! We will not be as likely to start name calling. And FYI Juan is part of game lore now just ask Grimm
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:35 pm	Joel Autobaun said: This u logan? Synthorange    Tan Teck Weng    Nope.. Not me.. You ounce again clealry have me confused with someone else because I have already mentioned where my Twitch account is, and it points at my Steam account in the channel info, so if you really wanted to, you could figure out my account on Steam but all of you just seem to jump to conclusions and tell me I am someone I am not. Not me.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 1:36 pm	Joel Autobaun said: lmao... Watch the Video guys. unarmed PU (I lost many when I was a noob too) And totally could have got away.  Cya Logan enjoy... hatofull boyfriend(about 20 down) on the list of Logans games Nope.. Wrong account. Don't know who's account that is. I have also said in this very thread that my name is Kami, not Juan... That's means it's also not Tan Teck Wang
*Boonwolf* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 2:04 pm	Dont let them old scabs get to ya there only stating you are ACTING or SOUNDING like other people. Whining and gripping only stokes the pot your old enough to know this! 1: If your going to give up because you keep getting bested by AI consider changing how you approach the combats. 2: don't go south of GW in a pickup 3: don't feed forum trolls we know who they are and love them the same. 4: items can be had for cheaper than markets(free) if you ask around. And most importantly this is not a solo game! Yes vets solo scout but we still group scout and depend on each other for maintaining camps and such. Sad to hear of your future departure but attitude in forums it may be better to have one less Juan around
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 2:38 pm	*Boonwolf* said: Dont let them old scabs get to ya there only stating you are ACTING or SOUNDING  like other people. Whining  and gripping only stokes the pot your old enough  to know this! 1: If your going to give up because  you keep getting bested by AI consider changing how you approach the combats. 2: don't go south of GW in a pickup 3: don't  feed forum trolls we know who they are and love them the same. 4: items can be had for cheaper than markets(free) if you ask around. And most importantly  this is not a solo game! Yes vets solo scout but we still group scout and depend on each other for maintaining  camps and such.   Sad to hear of your future departure but attitude in forums it may be better to have one less Juan around I been bully bait all my life.. By my teens I started fighting back and I have no intention of stopping and trolls, which all the research support this lately, are nothing but bulies online... I don't play games at places that endorse and encourage bullying and this place has done both... I was complaining at first, and ready to walk... The fact I been bullied and no one does a thing to stop it garrauntees I am leaving... NO.. I will NOT tolerate bullies. I will not play with bullies, I will not converse with bullies.. I will not tolerate bullies... This means I will not play here. AS I sit here continuing to get attacked by these bullies all you guys want to do it tell me I auto just take it... F U!! I don't have to take it and an MMO that encourage or tolerates bullies will always make me a target.. It goes with being scarred. It goes with being smart.. It goes with being different, and all I do is remember every name of anyone that has ever bullied me and if i ever see them in trouble, in distress or on the receiving end, I just sit back, laugh and talk about Karma. I do NOT tolerate bullies, PERIOD, but you all, as by your own words, apparently love them all the same. Evil happens when good people do nothing to stop it and I fully believe that anyone that sits back watches bullies without doing anything to stop them are culpable and just as quilty as the bullies. I have seen 4 people come onto this thread and not attack me, defend the bullies or tell me it all my fault I'm getting attacked... No it's not.. They have a choice and they have chosen to attack me. That puts them solidly in the wrong. And you, despite your apparently helpful tone just make yourself culpable, so you are guilty of bullying by assocaition.
*goat starer* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 2:44 pm	The bullied tend to become bullies. You are a prime example.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 2:47 pm	goat starer said: The bullied tend to become bullies. You are a prime example. You take a swing and me, I will swing back. You are pushing it, you are doing all the aggression here. You are the one repeatedly attacking and assaulting me. And no, I am not a bully... I am an activist and a vigilante, not a bully. By your reasoning, every super hero from the comics is a bully, from the Punisher to Spiderman to Batman to Ironman, to Dr. Strange because none of them just turn the other cheek and take the abuse, but all will not only fight back but will fight back on behalf of others. So in your argument, heroes are bullies.
Ivan Kerensky Posted Oct 3, 2014, 3:03 pm	Hey, that's the game. Sometimes it is harsh, but it is always fair... ... even if I stopped playing for 2 years after my last gang TPK and only come back lately. The community was always the very good point in DW, simply because the game is harsh versus us that we need each other shoulder to stand on (or cry on...). And I was victim of another player assassination mission !
*goat starer* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 3:04 pm	I suggest you read the first page again carefully. I'm willing to give you thec benefit of the doubt that you may have been exasperated, drunk or expecting to be shot down but you came out swinging and reacted in a petulant fashion when called on it. You are the bully in this scenario... Your experience has clearly blinded you to your own behaviour. How many bullies hide behind that.. Ooh.. I'm a freedom fighter... A vigilante... It just sounds daft. Never seen a better example of how to rile a whole community than this one.
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 3:10 pm	goat starer said: I suggest you read the first page again carefully. I'm willing to give you thec benefit of the doubt that you may have been exasperated, drunk or expecting to be shot down but you came out swinging and reacted in a petulant fashion when called on it. You are the bully in this scenario... Your experience has clearly blinded you to your own behaviour. How many bullies hide behind that.. Ooh.. I'm a freedom fighter... A vigilante... It just sounds daft. Never seen a better example of how to rile a whole community than this one. That's why more than one person has posted in here that I have already proven my point about bullies.. Not that I am one.. My claim is that this place is rife with bullies that attack anyone that does not share their opinion.. I have a different opinion.. So, to you, I must be Juan. That makes you the one reacting to my having a different view and automatically making me a target... I did not lash out at you till you started implying I am an idiot and calling me Juan. BTW, through private chatter I been told the story of Juan and if the person(s) that told me, if they spoke out publicly could assure you I am not Juan, and Juan's story sounds just like mine. He apparantly came on here, started reporting bugs left and right and every started trolling him, calling him and idiot and telling him it's all in his head, so instead of reporting the bugs, he started exploiting them and somewhere down the road, him exploiting the bugs and sharing the exploits with others got him banned... and the person(s) that told me know who Juan is and that it is not me.
Groovelle Posted Oct 3, 2014, 3:11 pm	Logan Kurtiss said: something Gr8 b8 m8. But in actuality, is all this because of a lost pickup? Am I grokking that right?
Logan Kurtiss Posted Oct 3, 2014, 3:15 pm	Groovelle said: Logan Kurtiss said: something Gr8 b8 m8. But in actuality, is all this because of a lost pickup? Am I grokking that right? No, it's not.. It's about repeated losses.. Everyone else keeps claiming it's because I lost a pickup, but I was already outraged and complainng 2 events before that saying I was losing patience in the inconsistant and stupid behavior of the game as well as bugs getting me killed... If you read the whole thread, I have given a long list of things that I won't put up with and that trolls is one of them... It's not a loss of 1 pickup.. I've lost lots of rides... It's how often the game breaks it's own rules and I end up dead for it. Until you are up to date on the thread, anything conclusions you jump to are purely guesswork and speculation.. I have explained my point and even in the very first post made clear that it was a serious of events and the trolling the results whenever I so much as point out a bug. It's a combination of many things that has pushed me away. As long as all you read from me is "Something" you are never going to follow the thread.
*JeeTeeOh* Posted Oct 3, 2014, 3:16 pm	Logan Kurtiss said: BTW, through private chatter I been told the story of Juan and if the person(s) that told me, if they spoke out publicly could assure you I am not Juan, and Juan's story sounds just like mine. He apparantly came on here, started reporting bugs left and right and every started trolling him, calling him and idiot and telling him it's all in his head, so instead of reporting the bugs, he started exploiting them and somewhere down the road, him exploiting the bugs and sharing the exploits with others got him banned... and the person(s) that told me know who Juan is and that it is not me. I suppose that's one version of the Juan story.
Axiin Posted Oct 3, 2014, 3:16 pm	Shame on you Marshalls, and shame on you vets. You've all been absolute tools in this thread. Your doing a big circle jerk with each other. Yes this dude is crass and an arrogant prick whose been touting his nerd cred to try and fit in and prove his epeen.... But you're supposed to represent the game and the community. For the most part it's just been a bash logan party and that is far below the behavior I've seen form all of you normally... it's like you become different people on the forums. Shame on you. Logan, walk a way, you don't like it... You don't like the community or the game Walk way. It's that simple You know why it's that simple? because it's an optional game. It is not life, you're not stuck in school being picked on like the majority of us likely were for 12+ years. You don't have to show up every @#!@ing day and be taunted, you can walk away. YOU are acting like a troll just sticking around flexing your nerdceps. I watched the events too and you made a lot of stupid mistakes a lot of noob mistakes, your driving was erratic, you weren't looking far enough ahead and planning movement, you were driving cars that shouldn't be driven where you were etc. You're a noob, but rather than say "Hey community how can I work my way around this" you claim it's bad game design It might be, it might be punishingly hard, the game IS unbalanced number wise towards the AI, but that is a mechanic of game balance (how ever lazy that may be). Yes there are bugs, but I've never personally encountered any that were game breaking that I didn't have gangers restored or cars refunded. So I'm going to make a suggestion, everyone stop trolling each other for jollies, everyone walk away this discussion has done nothing but fallen down the cliff of mouth breathing superiority ego trips.