Great idea! A couple quirks you/we might run into.
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Groovelle Posted Mar 28, 2020, 1:09 am |
Love the total idea, Harry and Sam, and all in on the plan. There are a few issues:
CR+playerskill is broken. The economy is broken. If one side can field 200 and 300+ sniper/heavyweaponmen or literal millions worth of mercenary suicide bomber 80 skill gangers in a Buzzer or two, what makes a couple of noobs want to show up in, what, 4 sedans? I don't see how you could convince a new player or less-advanced camp to get in with their people or pony up the cash for a 'more level playing field' hired gun when they don't have the player experience to come close to winning, and will be engaged and demoed before they can get out of the spawn circle by superior rigs. The thing that makes down south battles so intriguing is that the odds are stacked against superior tactics and skills. I would hate to see a mortar lorry and two Buzzers up against whatever cr equivalent that is in noobies. No one but the boldest camp in each region would raise a finger. In short, I think a total rebalancing of PVP cr would make this plan sizzle. What if, because Sam wills it, the lowly sedan, the Chevalier, the pickup, cargo vans and cadronas, had actual use in Evan? Even-out the odds of 20 skill gangers in the hands of week old accounts or half-new returners in Spirits speeding towards dual car cannons, and you might find someone willing to fight. My proposal is simple. Balance account age or events entered vs CR vs character skill and distance from home. We all know homefield advantage - this balances out one camp overextending too far. Let the the heavy weapons platforms stay parked at camp. but.. CR is a joke - battle-ready BPU with three guns is 183 cr. A kitted out Windsor II with two lesser ones? 142 cr. 41 CR for that car difference? Plus armour? Plus weapons? Plus Player Skill? Plus Ganger skill? Plus Specs? I see negative numbers of noobies wanting that fight as they run screaming when you let on what you're about to ask them to do. Especially when you tell them you'll be sending their only car against a camp owner's hoarde? But let them loose with Amatuer Night Phoenixes, Symphonies? Tell them their new hires can group up with other noobies to attack marauding Buzzers who strayed too far from home? Let them know how much a Buzzer sells for? I think you might have a fight. More pvp cr for giant, out-of-place vehicles up north. pvp cr penalty for specs/famed gangers and cars (all NPC hearing about this fight have a grudge already and want a piece). Spawns of affiliated faction NPCs to help the poor 18 year olds in broken heaps. Less cr for pvp fights in smaller vehicles. It makes sense thematically, too. If you told half the gangs in Evan that a gang leader of some forever-gang - someone who has killed hundreds of gangers and is driving a car responsible for millions of dollars of wasted car - was on its way, about to go murder and thieve on a squad of 17 year olds who barely own a shotgun between them, and are packing into a Phoenix and a busted up cargo van to go defend their livelihoods, every gang in Evan would be itching for a fight.. - just like down South. P.S. let the millions of Humvees guard their camp-gate. Attacking there should incur penalties and repercussions, even for a fleet of ramdronas. Keep the Northern triangle weird. Make the vets fear the little guys when they venture into their playground. PSS: I love love love love this idea! You're on a roll, Sam. |
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Groovelle Posted Mar 28, 2020, 1:49 am |
I dig the "camps have a limited set of cr 'tokens' to place for strategic interests," too, if it's easier. | ||||||
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*HarryRed* Posted Mar 28, 2020, 2:05 am |
That is how it will operate - perhaps should have made that clearer in the announcement post.
CR point generation wont be linear with camp size - as you get bigger your marginal CR points will go down. On top of this, CR points wont be as efficient based on distance from your camp (geographically) As for your thoughts on the CR of certain cars being not appropriate for their power - we are of course open to fixing that, its a ridiculously easy fix for sam. That is if you can get a consensus on it, people who own a lot of powerful cars might try to shoot that down lol. |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Mar 28, 2020, 7:21 am |
I think Groovelle has a point in that revisiting the CR calculations would be beneficial (car and crew).
As an aside it is entirely possible to find yourself outmatched CR wise in these fights - against a human opponent that could be a significant risk - perhaps even more so if they have 'throw-away' mercenary types on their side. |
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Blaer Posted Mar 28, 2020, 12:06 pm |
A CR revamp would be smegging BRILLIANT!!! Give the trash cars some value... But 'ware the double edged sword here... Gonna encounter a lot more vehicles on your scouts too...  but Im all for it.
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*Longo* Posted Mar 28, 2020, 5:27 pm |
CR balancing with account age and considering skills into CR is also bad. “Make the vets fear the little guy”? Every time I have a skilled ganger in a fight I am nervous because I have literally spent real life years training them. Why is it fair, for example for me, who has paid for the game and been a consistent subscriber for like 12 years, who chooses to use a ganger I have spent years playing, have a player who may not have ever subbed and played their ganger a week, suddenly have me at a significant handicap? This new guy may likely be gone in a few weeks, but I will still be here, adding to the community whenever I can, paying to play and keep the game going? How is that fair ? Do you think this is suddenly going it generate thousands of subscribers? Get the vets to quit and there will be no more Darkwind. As it was explained to me I will probably use a combo of npcs and a few of my own gangers.. I don’t want to lose them, but like everyone I else, I want to have fun; not be in a running race with 1 leg just because I am a vet. | ||||||
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*HarryRed* Posted Mar 28, 2020, 5:44 pm |
^^ this. It is desirable to make noobs useful and included, but they gotta earn #### the hard way just like everyone else. Fostering a community of entitlement where people get given free perks in order to punish those who worked isn't a good way of creating a healthy community.
If they don't wana lose their characters let them use mercs, but don't punish the guy who took the risk of bringing his good character out who might die. |
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*sam* Posted Mar 28, 2020, 6:00 pm |
Not including character skills in CR calcs was always a design intent. A core aspect of the game (perhaps the most core of all) is nurturing your characters .. 'coz they're gonna eventually die. One of the things that makes highskill characters so important is precisely that they don't contribute to CR. It's part of the reward for nurturing them so long.
Tweaking chassis and weapon CRs is definitely possible, though. (But carefully, of course, and only with votes to decide). |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Mar 28, 2020, 6:16 pm |
I suspect with the nature of the combats, mounted mortar are going to need a CR bumpcost. Probably napalm too.
Well nevermind - it's been done before if you recall. If we allow these weapons (text from SCL): The following vehicular weapons are not allowed: Paint Guns, Lasers and Heavy Lasers, Mortars, RGMs. ...On some maps these weapons can be brutal. Forcing the fight with the control circle might limit laser usefulness(it's a running style weapon), but MM has always been the king weapon in everything. ...they will need a CR bump or Geneva Convention limiting their use. Napalm is often used in SCL, and it seems ...okish.... so not sure about that one. Depends on the rules of these tile/camp combats. in SCL combats quickly degenerated into MM duals. That's why they got banned. |
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Blaer Posted Mar 28, 2020, 6:59 pm |
To be clear I just meant looking at chassis and weapons again... I also do not support anything based off of time in game as a CR balancer
But Im unclear about say armour.... I feel like its a pure numbers regardless of strength... But I could be mistaken |
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Fealty Lost Posted Mar 28, 2020, 7:10 pm |
"You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind...you don't pull the mask from the Ole Lone Ranger...." "Bad Leroy Brown"
Sorry, but if I heard the Waster of the Wastelanders (c) was going anywhere, I'd be staying at home. Half your guys will get wasted before they can even have a cunny-hair's chance of hitting anything and the other half will follow. Where everything is word of mouth and whispered stories told around campfires to frighten the youngers send chills down the spines of those who may have survived encounters with these legends...by running away...a million in kills is 20 million...done with an unarmed Flash and a rifle, with lightning slamming the ground around this legend of a ganger, seemingly directed at his enemies by sheer force of will. This is how the Bible got written. Long, long games of 'telephone' in a world full of illiterates and no (few) means of communication except the spoken word. And how would they find out someone was leaving a camp? Carrier pigeons? Smoke signals? They'd have no clue someone was rolling out without extensive radio communications or people every half mile with signal flags. Leave peoples' worked-up gangers alone. They shouldn't count for any more CR than one of those 18 year olds, because their cars can get shot up and they can die, if the dark gods of DW so will it. Just my .02 |
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*goat starer* Posted Mar 28, 2020, 8:35 pm |
i think all of these issues were addressed.
CR will become stretched (and less valuable) as you expand away from your camp.. so your outlying regions are vulnerable even if you are strong. the big camps are not going to be able to extend forever. if its done right at the fringes a bunch of newish players could be taking tiles without a fight because the alley wouldn't want to leave itself vulnerable by committing CR and leaving itself more vulnerable in key areas. mercenaries would have limited skill... you wont have to be a very experienced player to have better characters at your disposal. the proposal limits the maximum CR for tile attacks so you will never be faced by insane fleets of 300 skill sniper 6 fire engines. |
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lostsoul214 Posted Mar 28, 2020, 8:39 pm |
I'm very split on this one as I can understand why people would not want ganger skill to count towards CR, On the other hand you can have a duel CC buzzer wasted by a duel gat pho if someone has those decent gangers. So what I'm saying is a 325 CR buzzer is not necessarily actually that high of a CR compared to the Pho with only 125. I also understand the time in raising gangers and keeping them safe is an accomplishment that shouldn't go unrewarded. I'm not sure what I'm actually getting at here, I just think there's no real reason for someone like me to go up against someone like let's say Joel, Sure it's fun the first few times, cause I'm playing with the big boys, but if I'm just getting slaughtered why do it? I very much enjoyed the CoE where I was set on fire and then sniped from a hill, I also didn't have complete newbs in and still only hit once. Not complaining just throwing some things out there. I go into a lot of the PvP things knowing I'm not going to have a chance, and so I'm not disappointed when I'm shot from across the map, haha. Not trying to get anything changed just trying to be involved a bit. | ||||||
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Joel Autobaun Posted Mar 28, 2020, 9:14 pm |
I hope people stop comparing this to COE (which is the most unfair event you can do).
We might play the camp strategy game for years and never fight - we might fight right away if next to each other. Don't know what to tell you. I've explained before about speed being a great ability in PvP. not wasting my breath, not going to tell you exactly how to beat me. Or you can just stay PvE not participate. I actually don't think I will personally have to time to do "well" in this strategy system. I don't know. I will play more than just sundays now, but not sure how much time I will have for it. I wish it came years ago. But very happy its finally going to happen. I think you will carve out a niche in it no matter who you are. Maybe you can hire me to fight your rivals. |
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lostsoul214 Posted Mar 28, 2020, 9:47 pm |
I probably won't get involved with PvP, for the most pat it would do nothing for me but waste years of effort as I'm just some little guy, I'm not saying I should or any of the new guys should be able to take someone like you or even someone like Xman out. I couldn't and you and I both know that. I also understand that it's not CoE. But thats not really what my point was at all. I'm saying if you have 9 cars with 50 skill gangers and 2 or 3 cars with close to 300 skill gangers in them, The amount of CR really doesn't matter, you could probably even double it to 18 and it still wouldn't be a match worth watching, you'd know the outcome before the match even started. Again not looking for some sort of change I'm just pointing out that you should look at things if you want newer guys to get into it is all. I'm not trying to get you going or anything, was just trying to point out an issue with getting newer guys to join in. That's all | ||||||
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Joel Autobaun Posted Mar 28, 2020, 10:02 pm |
I once lost a 300 psi(and 300 in many other things) in PvP to a bunch of scrub <50 gangers in defending the alley.
My single worst loss ever, one ganger. I can't even remember if I won that fight. It didn't matter after that loss. You are wrong. You might never know why you are wrong. |
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lostsoul214 Posted Mar 28, 2020, 11:21 pm |
Alright, Carry on | ||||||
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*HarryRed* Posted Mar 28, 2020, 11:42 pm |
I don't think its desirable for everyone to play the role of some high up political figure in this new gamemode - in EvE online theres what - like 10 guys who run the major factions, and thats a game with tens of thousands of daily users.
This system is about creating dynamic new player driven gameplay - where you fit into that depends. I am confident however that everyone will find their place as Joel said. The 2 - 3 car limit per player will be HUGE in giving people something to do |
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Dropdeadfred Posted Mar 28, 2020, 11:46 pm |
This. He's not wrong. It's easy to call someone incorrect when you're already at the top. Unless you want this new system that Sam is going to spend how many hours to create to only be played by a handful of players, it's really something to think about. As it stands, I don't see any reason to get involved. The barrier of entry to get a camp to play in the 'boardgame' is really high. To play in the boardgame you've gotta put that camp investment at-risk. You've also gotta put your collection of vehicles and your high-end gangers at risk. For what? Sure, that's to be determined, though a player can just stay out of all of it and still have a camp to craft things at. If there's exclusive rewards out there on certain hexes that can't be earned through any other means, it becomes a rich get richer scenario with a bunch of extra steps. CR Balancing between the squads of cars that would be fighting seemed to be the equalizer, except Ganger skill/specs doesn't come into play so its not balanced at all. Sure, Joel, you've lost a high end ganger to a bunch of scrubs before. That's once. Throughout multiple fights, hex-control scuffles and whatever, the law of averages wins out and the group with the best gangers will win. Also, since I'm sure there won't be any kind of world wipe (and I'm not proposing this, no need to reply about contesting a wipe), the odds are already stacked against most. Even if there was a world wipe, just look at other games that have similar-ish style systems. Mordheim and Blood Bowl give you gangs or teams of players that have stat points and skills that increase as play goes on. Would anyone want to join a fresh Blood Bowl league with already well established teams? It's why Ark, 7DaysToDie, Rust, etc, servers have huge population spikes after they do a wipe. Very few people want to get too involved in something that's PvP in nature when they already start out steps behind the others. This is even more-so when the resources that are collected (gangers in this case) are either incredibly rare to get or take a lot of time to build up. There's always the corner cases out there that'll buck the trend. If that's who this system is being catered to, by all means. |
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*goat starer* Posted Mar 28, 2020, 11:53 pm |
the fact that players would have a cap on merc hires would automatically make it attractive to have a newer player hire some and join you. camp wars have always got a bunch of newer players involved. they have always had less to lose... and with merc hires will have even less.
and frankly nobody has to do it... you can play, run a camp etc without ever joining in. that's your loss. so why anyone is saying "i wont do it but i think i should be able to shape it" is entirely beyond me. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Mar 29, 2020, 12:00 am |
No that was one example. Take your best gangers into a fight - the game pours the hate on you - so it seems.
The thing is, that loss hurt - a LOT. But that ganger would be dead of old age anyway now. Don't think you guys can understand that just yet...do you lose gangers too fast? I don't know... The main thing to remember here is, this isn't town events, this isn't SCL, this isn't leagues and this isn't even intercepts. This has never been done yet in this game. Sure we are all guessing outcomes. I honestly do think there is a PvE angle to this strat system. I absolutely do not think *I* will dominate at all. I might not even put "The Alley" in this. However I will participate if I can. A global system which can cause more effect on the game world, are you kidding me: AWESOME?!! Not everything is about "winning" and "losing". Sometimes just playing is fun. I came in 3rd place in Coe2 last week and worse in COE1- that was the most fun I've had since robinhood used to try to take my head off. So I don't blame anyone for keeping their camp out of it. But let's not generally piss on the idea because some people have good gangers. That's absurd. The best gangers have an advantage yes - do NOT always win, trust me. And when they lose sometimes they REALLY lose. |
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Dropdeadfred Posted Mar 29, 2020, 12:06 am |
That's a funny way to tell some of us that we can't have an opinion or give any constructive criticism. Would you prefer "I won't do it but I won't tell you why"? Especially from someone that still considers them a new player? I heard a lot of talk during the Discord Town Hall about getting new players involved. As it currently stands, with the limited info we have posted and what I heard during the Town Hall, it's a really hard sell. |
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Dropdeadfred Posted Mar 29, 2020, 12:15 am |
I quoted only the parts relevant to my reply. Earlier I quoted that it just really needs to be looked at if you want newer players involved. I'm echoing that statement. I went into my concerns for the system. As more info comes out about the mechanics of the system, I reserve the right to change my opinion. If my long-winded posts get Harry, Sam and Co. to take just another 5 minutes to think about the system, cool. I really do think what they are building will add another level of depth to the game. I'm looking forward to more information as well. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Mar 29, 2020, 12:17 am |
I think new players aren't going to have camps right?? Like what is a new player these days and what is a vet? Don't even know, honestly. Truly new players are going to like to get paid 10K or something from a vet to scout towards their camp, maybe run parts to camps for stuff etc. Probably be very similar to what it is now. They probably won't know what's going on or notice a difference. Other people will watch this camp game play out and decide if they like it or want to participate....like anything else. |
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Dropdeadfred Posted Mar 29, 2020, 12:29 am |
Really good question, right? There really isn't a hard line that defines it. Do you have a camp? Much more likely a vet. I'm sure there's plenty of people that I would consider vets that don't own camps though. I consider myself a newer player and here's some factors why. I've never really scouted outside of SS. The one time I tried to move Lorries with an escort I was brutally thrashed. I've been to Firelight a couple times to pick up gangers from the Pits. I have no idea what Morgan is about. I'm not sure how I'd move the slower cars from town to town as even my single car travels can sometimes pull 4:1 or 5:1 odds (or worse further south), so I just buy them. I can solo scout SS without an issue 95% of the time (returns can sometimes get dicey). I have a few gangers over 100 in some skills. I have a single ganger with a weapon skill over 150 (handgunner doesn't count). I've only just recently learned how to muscle scout. I try to participate in the leagues. |
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*HarryRed* Posted Mar 29, 2020, 12:37 am |
Most of the vets you are talking about started playing in the era of unlimited PvP where their 20 skill guys in pickup trucks could get ambushed outside somerset and red texted by anyone at any time... the reason they are successful is because they loved the game and they found a way to make their way in a brutal world.
That was then. There is now CR limiting, geographical CR restrictions, hired mercs, teleporting characters into a foot squad as well as vast character developmental and resource incentives being proposed to make PvP less prickly. If you still don’t want to PvP with all those measures in place my guess is you actually don’t want to PvP at all, and there is nothing anyone could do to actually incentivize you to do it. Which is fine. Some people like to play dark wind as a PVE FarmVille apocalypse tycoon game and there is absalutely nothing wrong with that. That being said trying to tailor a PvP system to players who fundamentally don’t want or enjoy PvP doesn’t make too much sense. We should bend the system in order to make it more palatable... but when you talk about PvP with no stakes where everyone has safety pads on it loses the brutality and the stakes that makes PvP successful in games like EvE. |
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*The X Man* Posted Mar 29, 2020, 12:46 am |
I have not been fortunate enough to sit in on any of these meetings to hear the discussions, but what I have read here in this forum, there is a lot of concern about high skilled gangers being used against of lower skilled gangers.
So bare with me on my comments because I am not sure how things are supposed to work, but I have a suggestion that may make a difference to the above concern. If there is a vehicle CR restriction and it does not change regardless of what skill gangers are used, why not have a ganger skill cap? Whatever hex tile is clicked for battle, based on its location of the board, it comes with a ganger skill cap. Not a skill cap, but a skill total cap of all gangers used. Say the hex tile selected has 500 skill cap. This means you can bring 5 gangers at 100 skill each, 2 at 250 or 10 at 50. So a vet could bring 2 at 250 and maybe face a noob gang who brings 10 at 50. This could hopefully be used as an equalizer because the new gangs could hold their own by being able to use more against the vet that would be using less characters. We all know, in this scenario, 4 higher skilled guns facing would be at a disadvantage facing 10 lesser skilled guns. This would affect stress and other factors that can slowly make this a more competitive match. I was late to the camp party, so if this cant work or doesn't fit for whatever reason, scrap the suggestion. It was just an attempt to make battles competitive between players with different character skill levels. Maybe someone else can spin off of this and take it in a different direction. |
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Dropdeadfred Posted Mar 29, 2020, 2:03 am |
During the Town Hall, Sam asked if the system was even wanted or going to be used since there's a time investment involved to create it and a joke about Scavs was made. The posts above are the answers from two of us that are currently saying no.
Perhaps stopping to take a look around and 'reading the room', so to speak, is in order? Lets use some current data that anyone can access about PvP in Darkwind, the Leagues. Unfortunately, it looks like a bit of the data can't be seen, but from what we can see... Somerset Race League, 37 different gangs with points on the board. Northern Semi Pro Combat League, 4 gangs have points. Somerset Pedestrian Combat League, 8 gangs have points COE 1, 12 gangs have points COE 2, 8 gangs have points Looking at the data, your players are more likely to get involved in something that's lower risk to their gangers. If you feel the programming time is better spent working on yet another PvP system, well, I guess that's your choice. |
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lostsoul214 Posted Mar 29, 2020, 2:18 am |
I won't be joining in because I wont stand a chance. It takes years to get to where most of these guys are at. I'm just saying it's unlikely to get newer guys involved when they can be slaughtered from twice the distance they can hit at. I really am not saying do it my way. I was just thinking people might just take a look at what they can do to involve them since they wanted that to happen. You are right though, since I won't be joining in I have nothing more to say about. I'll see myself to the door. | ||||||
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*HarryRed* Posted Mar 29, 2020, 2:23 am |
There’s like 6 league races a day which people often just join randomly which give points in the league while COE is one day a week at specific times in specific towns which you have to plan for so the comparison doesn’t really hold up.
Also I don’t have data on this but I feel pretty confident in saying that COE is the event with the single most attendees most weeks, I think there was above 10 in a few of them last Sunday. Which is pretty extraordinary when you think about it - no CR restrictions, no skill cap, no rules about teaming. The funniest thing about that example is it was the people with expensive gear and amazing characters that actually lost those races - Joel and Longo didn’t even place in either of them as far as I know. Just shows that with teamwork and hard work the David’s can team up and beat the Goliath. That is if they have the right attitude. |
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Dropdeadfred Posted Mar 29, 2020, 2:33 am |
Northern Semi Pro Combat League is in SS. Somerset Pedestrian Combat League is in SS. The comparison does hold up. X Man's quote is spot on. Are there going to be a lot of players? Right now, the data points to no. |
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*The X Man* Posted Mar 29, 2020, 2:37 am |
One thing I haven't heard yet is whats at stake?? What do you earn or win?? | ||||||
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*HarryRed* Posted Mar 29, 2020, 2:45 am |
Ya.. that’s assuming only the camp leaders fight and they don’t choose to get any help lol. Most camps have many many full members and the 2 cars per player restriction means they will have to pay for outside help. As for the league thing - the race league has been running for twice as long and had 4 times the events per day as either of the other leagues you mentioned so not really comparable. Not that leagues which pay like 3k per event are really a good indicator of what players want. Fundamentally this difference is inreconcilable - some people like pvp and some people like a casual experience of fighting pirates. Nothing wrong with that. It will come down to sams best judgment at the end of the day. |
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*HarryRed* Posted Mar 29, 2020, 2:47 am |
There’s a lot of ideas floating around, I’ll try to consolidate them into a list tomorrow, it’s past my bedtime rn tho. Rest assured they will be cool and flavorful and worth fighting over |
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Dropdeadfred Posted Mar 29, 2020, 2:55 am |
That's a completely different can of worms that I've been quiet on. Your quote may inspire me to put something into the Suggestions forum though. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Mar 29, 2020, 2:55 am |
That's fair. So guys sound off if you interested in the idea at least!?!?! Was it just me, Goat, Harry and Sam? |
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Dropdeadfred Posted Mar 29, 2020, 3:00 am |
<grin> We both know that the level of forum participation doesn't even come close to the number of players in the game  This is proven time and time again over pretty much any game/guild/clan/etc. Hell, I probably didn't come to the forums until well after a year of playing or so.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see things added to the game. I'd love to see things get fixed. Spending time on a PvP system while the game still has a skill that should really just be called Driver2? Interesting use of the programming time. |
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*HarryRed* Posted Mar 29, 2020, 3:00 am |
Someone should make a poll about this |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Mar 29, 2020, 3:24 am |
Ok I made one. Hopefully get an idea how many are bothered by ganger skill too. | ||||||
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ShawnFireDragon coldmolasses@live.ca Posted Mar 29, 2020, 2:35 pm |
Ganger Skill is more important than CR I believe. If it is not considered moving forward the imbalance becomes great. 
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Joel Autobaun Posted Mar 29, 2020, 5:05 pm |
There will be a lot of tweaks as this thing gets going - Ganger skill balancing perhaps comes in IF it proves a major problem. Ganger skill balancing is a rough topic. Maybe we cross the bridge if we need to. |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Mar 29, 2020, 5:18 pm |
This was considered, hence why we talked about having mercs available to alleviate some of these concerns. Also don't forget that with a king of the hill system the ability to play a certain style with high level crews may well be less viable.
Additionally, the idea is to encourage newer players to get involved indirectly as much as directly. Hence why we are trying to structure it so that camp owners will have to seek help from the newer/wider player base if they want to get everything done - and some of this is deliberatly intended to be PvE only and not PvP. If a camp is stretched resource wise I can guarantee that they will happily look to hire help moving stuff to the nearest town, keeping the local pirate presence down etc. The fact of the game is that it is easier (and dare I say more satisfying) to head south (once your crews and personal player skills are good enough) and loot the good stuff rather than farm SS to buy it. Some would argue that it is even easier to participate actively in a camp to get the really rare stuff rather than find it in the wild. |
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ShawnFireDragon coldmolasses@live.ca Posted Mar 29, 2020, 5:42 pm |
 Mercs allow you to not risk your gangers, just hire them to fight in your gangers place. Thus avoiding any risk of PermaDeath. PermaDeath is one core value that makes DarkWind.
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Joel Autobaun Posted Mar 29, 2020, 5:48 pm |
Probably have to have at least one vehicle manned by only your gangers. You will have skin in every battle. |
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ShawnFireDragon coldmolasses@live.ca Posted Mar 29, 2020, 5:51 pm |
Why not have at least one of your own gangers in each vehicle and fill the holes with the no risk NPCs.
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ShawnFireDragon coldmolasses@live.ca Posted Mar 29, 2020, 5:53 pm |
To be honest, I am not that excited to watch NPCs fight each other. Mercs driving around shooting Mercs.
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Joel Autobaun Posted Mar 29, 2020, 6:18 pm |
One reason is the merc car(s) will possibly force the fight - so fights can be finished in a timely manner. | ||||||
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*HarryRed* Posted Mar 29, 2020, 6:21 pm |
Mercs are gonna be like 70 skill - not op by any stretch. You will want to supplement them with skilled gangers. The possibility of making characters train faster against other players then against the AI has been thrown around also. | ||||||
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*Longo* Posted Mar 29, 2020, 6:27 pm |
On the Mercs idea, I was under the impression that they would be in our own cars and we would control them, not the computer. Am I right or wrong on this?
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ShawnFireDragon coldmolasses@live.ca Posted Mar 29, 2020, 6:29 pm |
 Why don't we just put our gangers in the passenger seats and let the Merc drive us around. Mercs in vehicles fighting the battle for us. Really?
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*HarryRed* Posted Mar 29, 2020, 6:47 pm |
No - of course you would be controlling them. anything else would be anti fun. Theyre just one use characters that dissapear after a battle - what you do with them is up to you | ||||||
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*The X Man* Posted Mar 29, 2020, 7:36 pm |
If the mercs are to be used like militia add ins for defenses, this will create the need to act fast and speed battles up. They charge in, you have to protect them as a wingman. If not, teams will play the posturing terrain game until they feel they have the best advantage spot to fight. This could take many many turns and drag out the fight. Battles shouldn't be over in 10-20 turns, but they shouldn't be 300-500 turn marathons either. |
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*sam* Posted Mar 29, 2020, 7:45 pm |
The posturing game is mitigated by having a turn limit, and a king of the hill target spot. Whoever is closest to the spot gets a point per turn. If the turn limit elapses without a normal ending (due to demo'ing), then highest king of the hill points wins. |
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*The X Man* Posted Mar 29, 2020, 7:49 pm |
So this is kind like a capture the flag concept? Race to the spot/flag and fight along the way? |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Mar 29, 2020, 8:35 pm |
Yes like that, forcing attacker to "attack" and defender to "defend". | ||||||
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*sam* Posted Mar 29, 2020, 8:44 pm |
We can do things such as put the target spot closer to the defender at the start, if the map hex they're fighting in has a high defence rating. | ||||||
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Blaer Posted Mar 30, 2020, 1:02 am |
Really hoping the merc idea dies quick... you people are aware there is a limit to members in a gang... you allow for mercs and this will explode for those with expendable resources... I ADAMANTLY am opposed to mercs. | ||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Mar 30, 2020, 1:31 am |
they are single use and have to be accompanied by actual gang members. They don't increase your gang limit, and are only available for PVP gang wars. I cant see a problem here. they allow PVP participation that is not risk free but reduces the risk of losing a lot of your gang, they allow newer players to field guys who are at least half decent and have a pop at the vets... they alos make perfect sense in the context of camps and territory. you own places you have access to their resources , including people. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Mar 30, 2020, 1:32 am |
that's just it there is a shortage of gangers for this. | ||||||
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Blaer Posted Mar 30, 2020, 3:08 am |
and I think engaging in the PvP camp wars should be taken seriously using your resources.... having it limited to your gangers makes it more of a calculated risk... this is "grand scale" end game stuff... high reward... feel the risk should be just as much a part of it... we have limits to how many can be in your gang, further aiding limiting an overzealous spread of a single gang or two taking over the map... you can only control what you can defend... your gang size aiding the limit and inspiring COORDINATION with even rookies just to help fill those gaps you wish to fill with NPCs... again, I reiterate... if you want mercs, there are MANY new players to fill that role for you... | ||||||
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ShawnFireDragon coldmolasses@live.ca Posted Mar 30, 2020, 3:14 am |
Stands next to Blaer "Well spoken brother."
As I have said in my post titled 'Shifting Sands' please heed point #2 as it ties to the element of PermaDeath. |
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Firecracker Posted Mar 30, 2020, 4:36 am |
I must be getting soft.. "i agree with Longo:" Being one of the oldest Vets. I dont want to be penalized/handicap for being a Vet.. | ||||||
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Joel Autobaun Posted Mar 30, 2020, 6:55 am |
Sounds like another Poll : to Merc or not to Merc. | ||||||
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Groovelle Posted Mar 30, 2020, 9:35 am |
I agree on the poll, Joel.
I don't like the idea of mercs. I feel like having mercs is a bigger deal than skill being in CR adjustments. If you can throw millions of dollars at the next camp without as much danger as the less-fortunate camp owners... You can be really reckless with unowned ganger-meat. |
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*Longo* Posted Mar 30, 2020, 4:58 pm |
This hasnt worked over the past 8 years or however far back it was implemented, thats why a change is being made. I assume you have never owned a camp and made it successful, and therefore do not know the time and efforts taken to get in the position, and then to consistently keep it in this position, week by week. |
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Hati Posted Mar 30, 2020, 5:28 pm |
I think the Mercs are fine in a limited capacity. First they disappear after a single use, second that you have to have your gangers in the car which you supply, third, they only used for csmp fights. Not travels or town events or anything else you can use your own or hire a new guy for | ||||||
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*Ninesticks* Posted Mar 30, 2020, 5:47 pm |
I think the Mercs idea works for the following reasons, just in case it is getting lost somewhere in the melee.
1. Any player can limit their risk in a PvP environmnt, your most valuable resource at any time is your gangers. Nice kit is good, but without the crews to use it loses a lot of its efficacy. This, I feel, is important for newer players who want to dip their toe rather than risk their whole progression curve by losing their most valuable resource. 2. Puts a reasonable ability to scale risk vs reward for later game players. How much you want to take/keep the tile will determine how many of your good crew you are willing to risk rather than using the mercs. Furthermore it also allows players who have taken hits to stay in the game while they try and rebuild. 3. The mercs themselves are not about avoiding permadeath, far from it, I actually think they will encourage aggressive play. When you have mercs in your crew you may be willing to take that HCR shot on low armour in the hope that if it does cave in a skull it isn't your good character. If they're all your own crew, the decision would probably be to resign and lose the vehicle rather than suffer the consequences. 4. The point of PvP camp wars is not to cause a mass slaughter of crew, it is about creating an environment that supports and encourages PvP for the widest audience. To do that we have to keep it fun to do as well as exciting. In regards to the 'not enough risk' argument I can guarantee you if I start popping up in town events and disrespecting truces and surrenders and start redding your crews, you may not experience this as 'fun' quite the reverse.
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*Longo* Posted Mar 30, 2020, 6:03 pm |
^This 
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Hati Posted Mar 30, 2020, 6:27 pm |
Well said Nine | ||||||
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*sam* Posted Mar 30, 2020, 7:24 pm |
It depends what the mercs cost. What if they're fairly cheap? |
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Tez Posted Mar 30, 2020, 7:25 pm |
Define "cheap".
$20k each? More? |
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*sam* Posted Mar 30, 2020, 7:30 pm |
I don't know offhand what that would be. My point was, it's entirely possible for them not to be a question of money. |
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Tez Posted Mar 30, 2020, 7:37 pm |
Maybe
It depends really how badly people want the resources and if Mercs are worth enough using. And what kind of builds people are willing to put them in, if they're say 10-20k each it'll be worth throwing them in a cheap muscle. More expensive, maybe it's worth throwing them in a sedan or SUV. |
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Hati Posted Mar 30, 2020, 8:02 pm |
How much is a 70 skill gamer with? | ||||||
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Tez Posted Mar 30, 2020, 8:07 pm |
Are they cross trained? Do they have random specs or can we spec them as we like? | ||||||
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*HarryRed* Posted Mar 30, 2020, 8:23 pm |
Probobly not cross trained, but you can pick the spec im guessing
open to being talked into something else though |
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Tez Posted Mar 30, 2020, 8:26 pm |
Honestly I'd like the specs to be random and the cross training to be random but guaranteed in X skills. As long as you can't hire new Mercs untill you've used them and you can't stock a load up.
Gives recruiter another meaning, stops them pesky Mercs lying to you on their competence. |
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Hati Posted Mar 30, 2020, 8:45 pm |
I like that idea. Random spec unless you have a recruiter in your gang then you can choose | ||||||
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*HarryRed* Posted Mar 30, 2020, 8:55 pm |
DISCLAIMER: NOT TARGETED AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR
I think a lot of people are approaching this in the wrong way - the goal is to create a dynamic strategic game, not a balanced one. Find yourself weak and against someone who can afford to field more stuff then you? Make an alliance with one of his enemies. Make an alliance with him perhaps, surrender a few tiles in return for protection. We arent trying to make this a game of starcraft where everyone starts out on the same level, more like HOI or EU4. Winning will mean a different thing for each camp. Maybe surviving will be winning to some people. Maybe uniting a subregion. Who knows. But if your enjoyment of the game stems from comparing what you have to what everyone else has then idk. |
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*Longo* Posted Mar 30, 2020, 9:27 pm |
It would be cool if a merc ganger pool was maintained. They keep their gained skills after every event, and get thrown back in the pool. Ones that stay alive may end up hitting 100 skill at one point. Its random who might get this guy next, and if they stay alive long enough, each event someone might be thinking "I hope Larry"Hellrazer" Jones is still alive and I recruit him, he is much needed by us in this event," getting a name for themselves in the camp combat environment. | ||||||
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Blaer Posted Mar 31, 2020, 1:00 pm |
I maintain my opposition to mercs...
the PvP that is to come is much less about camp defense and more towards a scramble for camp BONUSES... And your merc system WILL create a "who throws the most money at it" situation... And will allow a single player to potentially own multiple ACTIVE PVP camps and take the bulk of the map. And if PvP "isn't much of a thing anyways" than where is this need to bulk up the numbers with expendables? An alternate way to view it... A new player cant afford all these single use mercs so is forced to commit their still training gangers in events and any assists to camp wars/excursions.. So there is no incentive to draw them into this part of the game. And now that youve freed up all the vet gangers from their camply duties, the new players are even less needed for... Well... Anything really... Must have a ganger in a car... Just one per vehicle? So my ganger (fresh hire, drives, and I buy 2 gunner mercs...) And I have a 3manned expendable vehicle for camp wars... 1k for the fresh hire, some slap up 3 seater... Yeah... I'm trying hard to show you the flaws and holes potential to the system we are all looking forward to. I AM actively looking to break all the systems (in theory) before implemented to help mitigate with imagined playtesting... I hope my caution is heeded... |
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Blaer Posted Mar 31, 2020, 1:03 pm |
Good god no, please, no... Youve just turned the merc "pool" into your second bank of gangers... It breaks already... Smh |
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*sam* Posted Mar 31, 2020, 1:18 pm |
One of the rules we're strongly considering is that each player will only be allowed to own one camp that's active in the new system.
An alternative view to your alternative is that new players are valuable to camp owners, so they get sponsored by the camp owner, covering the mercs and cars they need for these purposes. |
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Hati Posted Mar 31, 2020, 4:06 pm |
I like that idea, Sam. We've already said that players should have to provide thier own cars and gangers in the merc rides, why not use new guys? | ||||||
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Groovelle Posted Mar 31, 2020, 9:14 pm |
Beautiful. I have less of an issue with player/ganger skill if this is true, especially if the token system of limited competition is in. |
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Tez Posted Mar 31, 2020, 9:17 pm |
Wouldn't that cause the camp owner putting scapegoat owners while they pull the strings so they can have more influence? | ||||||
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*Awefense* Posted Mar 31, 2020, 9:23 pm |
I see what Tez is saying. You could basically swear them to allegiance before signing the camp over, but the risk of someone going rogue is always there. Once the camp is signed over, it's gone. | ||||||
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Tez Posted Mar 31, 2020, 9:41 pm |
Well if you have a consortium of X people and each owns anothers camp in a circle and the rest are managers...it could be quite powerful | ||||||
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Blaer Posted Mar 31, 2020, 10:19 pm |
I am actually ok with this... You wanna give a camp away in the hopes they support you? Full on feudal! Thats Great! More participation! And perhaps.... (Pushing this point) less need for mercenaries.... | ||||||
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*Ninesticks* Posted Apr 1, 2020, 6:14 pm |
Please do keep up your opposition Blaer, always incredibly useful to get another perspective. | ||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Apr 1, 2020, 7:57 pm |
I volunteer to take on anyone's camp and do exactly what they say... honest guv! 
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*Longo* Posted Apr 1, 2020, 10:48 pm |
Not "My" bank, everyone's bank. You would have just as much a chance to recruit teh guy in the next event as I would. He only fights for me, or you for one fight, then is back out their to be recruited again , by whoever is lucky enough. |
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darthspanky Posted Apr 2, 2020, 8:22 am |
maybe people who participate get extra gangers, kinda like marshals who get extra men? but have to stay at camp like the marshals have to keep 5 in ss? | ||||||
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Zazul Posted Apr 2, 2020, 8:51 am |
Hmmm I very much like that idea like an extra roster per camp Im getting more intrigued by the camp wars already XD
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Blaer Posted Apr 3, 2020, 1:01 am |
The point I'm trying to make is that we're now gonna consider skilling these hires up... why even have a gang of your own? ( a bit hyperbole but I'm trying to hammer a point home) Edit: I'm really hoping that Mercs sit on the backburner and we can see IF they actually ARE needed... or if it's just gonna become another abusable tool.. |
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Ashlee Posted Apr 3, 2020, 10:02 pm |
With these camp war things....i see what people are saying and i feel it...This CR + gangers stuff...
I think personaly if ur gonna do it....gangers shouldnt add into CR but then whats to stop pa racers grabbing every hex on the map? ie somehow having a share in that hex... I think dependent on how long u have held a hex and how close it is to ur camp u should get more CR than the attackers....The CR u can bring to attack..should depend on how far u are traveling from ur camp or town... as for the gangers leave them be...if someone does have a aged 51 ganger with over 1000 skill points let them....it is a very big advantage but they do die. but something should be done to stop the REAL VETS u know who u are the PRO's .....shouldnt be allowed to clear up the map unless they them selves also have to work hard for it...tho im sure they will buy and build camps purely to get an edge in combat if it worked like that Like camp A wants to attack camp B but they are too far and defending player gets say a extra 400 CR so Camp A builds Camp C next to camp b To try and get better CR in there attacks....(tho camp C should be able to be attacked if building that close but i can again guarrentee someone will cheat...and be like this is a NONE PVP camp build it up and then say...Oh now its a PVP camp....tbf i think every camp should be given the option ur in the Camp wars or ur not which ever u choose is perm. Also feel like Camps in a camp war .....should be cheaper than camps that are not involved in the camp wars phase.....anyways theres my two cents on it...sorry for any confusion |
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Blaer Posted Apr 3, 2020, 11:15 pm |
Awesome... Glad youre getting in the copper Ashlee...
One of the biggest proponents that I heard from Sam himself was this idea that only ONE of a persons camps could get involved in this (and lets be clear as I understand it) strive for BONUSES... Tangent: I have no belief your camps will lose out as they are is they maintain AS IS... What I BELIEVE is happening is a venue for those who want to delve harder... SHAMELESSLY reiterating.. This is optional, mercs are a broken incentive imho..... Now...there seems to be no CHANGE for those who opt out.... And the benifits are there IF youre willing to "gamble"... Again... Please dont make gamble a money thing... They HVE the super skilled gangers.... Use them... OR DONT. Its a choice thing... Dont let them buy meatshields... (Have i hammered this enough?) |
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*Rev. V* Posted Apr 11, 2020, 3:02 am |
If we don't own a camp, can we BE mercs?
The nuns are always selling themselves anyway, this isn't really any different...heh... |
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Hati Posted Apr 11, 2020, 4:20 am |
It is literally my gangs name and mission | ||||||
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Joel Autobaun Posted Apr 11, 2020, 6:58 am |
Was a suggestion of mine. Post a job at Dex's(or closest town) for a combat. Player who accepts must at least put in the fight CR. Paid an initial payment. Partial payment for failure like NPC jobs. Paid by CR you make surrender. You must be flagged for PvP to accept. Then if you just drive around in circles for the fight, you piss off the mission poster enough he takes the money back in blood or bad blood. |
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Hati Posted Apr 11, 2020, 11:17 am |
I'm ok with those terms |