Darkwind: War on Legs
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*sam* Posted Feb 13, 2008, 4:09 pm |
Just a quick screenshot from the work I'm doing at the moment. I have characters exiting and re-entering vehicles, running around and crouching/standing. Next up will be to add hand-held weapons.
To test out the movement code, Highway to Hell has been used as an impromtu running track. Brandon Thornton with speed 85 has been whupping ass. 
I'm considering disregarding ammo for handheld weapons by the way. Apart from the laziness factor, it might be more micro-management than fun managing these. Hand-held weapons will generally be ineffective against vehicles, after all. |
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madmax Posted Feb 13, 2008, 4:20 pm |
Ooo..like the title 
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Monty Posted Feb 13, 2008, 5:06 pm |
While running so fast has he been moving legs? I just cannot imagine someone running 85 mph...
But otherwise I am so llooking forward to this. I wann pedestrians on track in Somerset events 
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4saken Posted Feb 13, 2008, 5:08 pm |
curious as to some of your ideas for peds, sam. maybe they are in a very old post somewhere that i have not been able to find.
anyway, i like the idea (dare i say?) of people bailing out of cars. if you see people flee a car, it doesnt need the word "demoralized" over it. i would assume that a demoralized character would simple stay near the car and be assumed to be taking cover from it, not so much a target, just eye candy. however, people would at some point have an option to bail out and fight on foot. foot peds could after all fire hand weapon at cars that have armor down on a facing and have some chance to cause harm. also i can't get over the image of a pickup with crazy people with hand weapons in the back. how far off is this? are we almost ready for beta???? please?  D
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madmax Posted Feb 13, 2008, 5:11 pm |
He means is speed characteristic is at 85 not he runs 85 mph. |
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Jansan Posted Feb 13, 2008, 6:19 pm |
Looks awesome!
The big thing about ammo, I think, is that it forces people to pick and choose their shots more. Plus, it may make hand-to-hand/melee strikes more viable. Also, if you wanted to introduce a rare laser pistol and/or rifle like the car-laser, it'd lose one of its bonuses. I don't really care though as long as there is classic post-apoc melee weapons, firearms, explosives, and projectile weapons. How will inventory/equipment for characters be handled? Also, it will be fun to hit people with cars. |
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Jansan Posted Feb 13, 2008, 6:46 pm |
Just to clarify, when you say generally ineffective, you mean less damaging/less optimal right? You can still damage them, right? |
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Kazzy Posted Feb 13, 2008, 6:57 pm |
Screenie looks good Sam
About hand-held weapons, will peds be able to shoot other parts of the cars like the tires perhaps? Even if there's high unlikely chance of popping the tires , it would be cool if it was possible. Anyways, can't wait to see it go live! |
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Seiler Posted Feb 13, 2008, 7:17 pm |
I'm hoping there are at least some anti-armor weapons, otherwise it'd be stupid to ever get out of your car, you'll just be fodder. Maybe a light rocket launcher that can fire every other turn? A large caliber sniper rifle with a similar rate of fire that can hit like a car rifle? I understand handguns being ineffective, but if we're using the same or similar caliber weapons, there should be similar damage... |
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*Longo* Posted Feb 13, 2008, 7:31 pm |
Its good that ped weaps will be ineffective towards cars. You dont want an army of peds killing cars... from what I remember in Car Wars ped weaps were effective against people and tires. There was also an rpg type weap that was effective against cars, but from what I remember it was bulky and only had a few shots.
You gotta consider when peds will be effective in the game... when your side is wide open and pirates are smacking the $%$# out of ya, you can get out and run, and maybe save your guy. Maybe even jump into another squad members car if he has room? On the downside, now that its say the gang member wants to escape, is he going to jump out of the car? PS Graphics look great Sam! |
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darthspanky Posted Feb 13, 2008, 7:38 pm |
i think it be fun after you win a wilderness and loot cars you see a bunch walking that you just beat on another encounter... ramming speed lol... or you could drive a bus and look for hitchhikers telling them you give em a ride.. but the ride is to a slaver guild or canible gang | ||||||||
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Jansan Posted Feb 13, 2008, 7:54 pm |
True, but like Seiler was saying, high caliber hand-held weapons can still put some hurt on vehicles. I mean I wouldn't expect anything more than Machine Gun damage, of course, for 99% of those. But yeah the main thing is running out of a dead car, or if your car is stuck in a crappy position (story of my life), I can get them to hop out, pop a few rounds into a stuck enemy vehicle, or at least try to run away. Pedestrians will probably be harder for vehicles to hit too, especially for the heavier weapons. |
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Seiler Posted Feb 13, 2008, 7:57 pm |
Then why even bother with a handgunner skill?
I'm not saying make it easy, but yeah, I do want varying encounters, where perhaps there is an infantry ambush. I'm not saying all weapons will be capable of damaging cars, but there should be special weapons, that sit in your car's cargo space and take up bulk and weight, or perhaps that add bulk and weight to the passenger that has them, that allow peds to damage cars. Not an M2 or anything so heavy and ungainly, but ever since there have been vehicles, dudes on foot have been preparing themselves with the means to take them out. EDIT: I do understand that you're concerned that 50 guys running from their cars could all fire on you and take out your car, but unless they are prepared for it, most guys are going to be carrying a basic handgun, a .38 or 9mm (referred to as a 9 mickey mouse, because despite media attention, that round is a joke in combat in anything but full auto...) But someone with a high handgun skill might just have that nice $8000 Barrett sitting in the seat next to them, ready to take a good sniping position in order to support the vehicles involved in combat. Or Someone may have that disposable light rocket (equivalent to a LAW or AT-4) in their trunk just in case. Or there may be that gang of mutants with their old 8mm Mausers sitting in the hills taking pot shots, protecting a cave with their booty from recent looting... |
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Jansan Posted Feb 13, 2008, 8:21 pm |
Exactly, pedestrians have to be viable. I want to use my van as an APC to deploy anti-vehicle troopers. It'd be fun. |
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*sam* Posted Feb 13, 2008, 8:49 pm |
Heh,yeah. I said generally ineffective. Taking the lead from car wars, a regular pedestrian weapon would only manage maybe 1 hit versus vehicle armour, but they would also have one-shot rockets etc. I was just being lazy about the ammo thing, but I guess it does really need to be tracked.
I think the big advantage of pedestrians might be that they can easily hide behind walls etc and shoot over them, making them very hard to hit. Rather than just firing from their visible muzzle point, I'm going to test a few firing points as high as their head, if their LOS is blocked by something. Although you won't see it animated, this will simulate them reaching up over a piece of cover. And the rules are going to change when you resign in an arena or reacetrack. Your car will no longer 'magically disappear' and you won't be safe until you actually leave the arena/track, on foot if necessary. I'll make the NPCs unlikely to fire at a pedestrian in town events, and you won't get any arena points for hitting them. |
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Seiler Posted Feb 13, 2008, 8:54 pm |
No, but you can bet I'll do it anyway
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Jansan Posted Feb 13, 2008, 9:18 pm |
Sounds awesome!
Edit: By the way, seeing that screenshot made my day. Run you fools, run! |
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Seiler Posted Feb 13, 2008, 11:51 pm |
I'd hate to be jumping the gun, (naah, not really) but I'm curious if facing is going to affect a pedestrian's ability to shoot. I think that, if standing still, they shouldn't really suffer any penalties, but if running in a direction, they should suffer some increasingly harsh to hit penalties the further they have to twist their trunk to shoot. Basically, the first 45° left or right incur no penalties, but past that point, their aim should diminish. Also, the faster they are moving, the more their aim should suffer, since anything but a steady walk or slow trot makes engaging targets precisely very difficult (hence why semi-auto and automatic weapons are so nasty up close, you may not hit with all your shots, but as long as a few thump into the guy you're good) | ||||||||
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Jam Posted Feb 14, 2008, 7:35 am |
I agree with Longo, either they can damage cars or lets not bother with them. I like the idea of having to bail out of a car in an event rather than just warping out after 5 seconds. | ||||||||
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Seiler Posted Feb 14, 2008, 8:07 am |
Actually, Longo was glad that they wouldn't damage cars...Which is incorrect. | ||||||||
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darthspanky Posted Feb 14, 2008, 9:51 am |
ive never use hang guns but a question on training in handgunner skill would handgunner be able to be learned faster? maybe characters could earn handgunner points quickly at first then slow off after they get like 20 or more most players probly dont have very many handgunners in there gang and would be hesitant to use there high skilled gunners in a ped shootout with low handgunner skill. if we made handgunner faster to train at first 20 points might give everyone equal footing for established characters? just an idea.
will we be able to use peds in the city im looking forward to starting many bar fights lol |
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Mad Mike Posted Feb 14, 2008, 10:38 am |
having peds walking around the town would be awesome, and having them spectating event as well....
ped weapons could do damage to vehicle if all armour is gone from a facing.. make damage per cars but it they only get like .25 damage per hit. the war would be over before they got through 20 points of armour. peds walking around to cars that cant move with a shotgun they poke in the holes through the metal firing thousands of little jagged metal pellets would be a cool effect! an army of 50 peds would do damage to a car in real life with anti tank weapons but then turning on a group and firing at them with gatling guns would wipe them out quickly! seiler, how many rounds per minute would a typical heavy machine gun fire? like 1000?????? isn't there machine guns that fire so many rounds per second?? remember there are large sniper rifles that can crack an engine block from hundreds of meters away. also same weapon can put a huge hole through a man from same distance. would love to have that. will the ped animations also include their bodies flying apart when hit by machine gun fire? I'd imagine a car rifle would blow a ped in two easily... a 50 caliber machine gun would also take arms, legs, heads, etc.. off and fly in different directions. just be satisfying to see a head fly through the air or a ped blown apart in 10 pieces from a well placed anti tank shell |
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Mad Mike Posted Feb 14, 2008, 10:42 am |
are peds going to have attack dogs against other peds as well... that would be cool!
for way way way into the future, can see first person shooter mission growing out of this |
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WolfEater Posted Feb 14, 2008, 1:09 pm |
hey all long 27 day's now this is where i come in and offer of course my knoladge in C V I type battle (and of course it will take too long to program it).
1. ok first question is DMG and regolar car MG will do how much dmg to a person. 2. STR will detarman final weight that the person can carry? if it does do know that STR do nothing about that it only about 1 thing Courage(Gutts or how we call it "RABAK") Example I weight 67-70 KG i can carry about 30-40 KG at Battle(wich mean's run fast shot reload and run up the mounten prone and hit the target from 200 M in the head) but in total i carry about 60KG for extra ammo and food. now we got in out squt another guy that is about 90 KG kick boxer that think only of him self he cant even carry 20 KG. 3.the count of worrior that fight on foot will be in the count of charcter that u can held in the gang? now i explain how do i would love to see this feature. implant Urban envirmant into the game so Squat's that working in the Gorila fight style. make worior's and charcter diffrante warior's can get there STR higher as they run and work out Warior's will have only few skill's to learn like hand gun's/ project gun's/ Tactic's /Heavy Hand gun's/ Medic/Stealth/ Mining/ Hideing/1 of the squat that assaing will be able to learn driveing wich he will drive the car that support the warior's . open eara fight style: of course Prone is needed be able to controll the hole squat with only pressing on the commander. like make the in a tactical move's like if they see enemy the get all at 1 line and start runing 30 M each time it depand what the commander say. a squat is 12 wariror plus 1 commander 12 warior get into 3 mini squat of 4 warior in each mini squat. i will show some tactical move's C= commander L = left squat R = Right squat B=back squat Move when charcging in a 30 M run each time this how the squat will be in the field. L C R B in each mini squat there name for each warior and his job mini suqat= 1=mini commander(regolar weapon) 2= Solder 3=LMG(light MG AA Laser+NV/Regolar weapon with Acog 4X and NV 4X) 4=Solder G=Grande louncher that attached to a weapon so in the fieald it will look like this L C R } B } = L= 3(Semi Sniper) 1(G) C R= 1(G) 3(LMG) 4 2 2(Semi Sniper) 4 B= 1(Number 2 in Heavy MG 3(Heavy MG) 2 4(Medic) |
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ISHOULDCOCO Posted Feb 14, 2008, 1:40 pm |
Sam was right the first time( not sucking up to DEVs....)
Peds have to be generally ineffective toward cars. Things would be really weird otherwise This is basically an infantryman against an APC/AFV type contest - no contest . Face to face that is ! Go play Midville in Car wars , A ped with an MG will move slow and really has to fire from good cover Grenades from cover will take out a tire in 3/4 turns One shot rockets will probably be equivilant to current light and mini rockets _ i am guessing a Ped could not do medium rocket damge from the shoulder launch. Thsi is all consistant with with DW - damage-wise - and means peds have to fight smart. I dont think that peds verse cars will be a the big issue ! I think people will want PEDWARS ! New, small maps with urban cover and maybe one vehicle per-side and some kind of territory/loot/technology prize . The only problem will be the 40 character limit might mean squads are small ( 5 man ?). This is an area where newbies can excel because the start gate has yet to open ( though one vet have been grooming snipers for a while) and new characters are more viabale for ped to ped combat COCO |
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Alocalypse Posted Feb 14, 2008, 2:03 pm |
I'm a bit afraid of that, characters on foot will certainly be fun and I trust Sam to balance them well with vehicles, but with special ped missions/maps etc the area the game is trying to cover might be too big and it could become a bit unfocused... |
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darthspanky Posted Feb 14, 2008, 2:49 pm |
maybe make a side gang of peds for each gang and they only use these guys in ped wars? i know im not gunna want to use a good driver or scout who sucks at handgunner on these mission perhaps new players should have an advantage with peds since they need money to buy cars they could do ped type missions | ||||||||
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Jansan Posted Feb 14, 2008, 6:15 pm |
Special exploratory/salvage missions for pedestrians and stuff would be pretty cool. Like what Seiler was talking about for dismounted missions. I support this! (But heck I'll just be thrilled to see them in.) |
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Seiler Posted Feb 14, 2008, 6:28 pm |
I'm not really concerned that peds will overwhelm the game, because handgunner skill is unpopular, and risking your 150 driver/scout on foot is pretty foolish. I don't want to see additional members, either, 50 Is enough! Geez folks, the whole point of the game is risking your people, not having throw away characters that you don't care about. If someone wants an APC and a gang of footmen, it has to come from their own ranks, not some additional retainers to swell the ranks of big gangs even more.
And BTW, trained infantry vs. APC = Dead APC in most cases. The real power in an APC is the infantrymen in the back. As for handgun training in your gang-it's been an option since the game went live, if you haven't trained anyone on it, too bad! They shouldn't train faster than any other skill, you have to spend time & effort on it. It's one thing to be able to defend yourself at 15 feet with a pistol, and quite another to engage targets at several hundred meters in a stressful situation. So if you want good footsoldiers, train them... If you don't, DONT I'm hoping sam will expand the game with more RPG elements such as exploring ruins, etc, because that stuff is FUN. I don't see it changing the game focus so that scouting in cars would no longer be profitable, etc. It'll most likely be more time consuming to run ped missions, and I can't see it adding so much of sam's time after it gets started that he can't work on other parts of the game... And if you're afraid of how easy your dudes may die, then keep them in the car! One last edit, most of you guys have no idea how hard it is to kill someone who is lying in the prone or behind good cover, and who has no desire to die! Simply spraying the area with MG fire usually keeps their heads down, but unless you maneuver on them, you'll run out of ammo before you kill a squad of well trained guys. Well, I'm gone for two weeks, so I hope sam's ability to weed through the chaff is unaffected while I have no input... |
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Jansan Posted Feb 14, 2008, 6:40 pm |
Agree with everything Seiler said.
Also, my APC will have infantrymen in the back! |
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*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Feb 14, 2008, 7:42 pm |
While having never served in the Armed Forces, I AM an avid War Historian.
Absolutely! In EVERY conflict fought by man since the stone ages, Winning or losing the battles hinged on the "Ground Pounder" the "Man in the Muck"! (Except Naval Battles--that's for you Toe) I'm also of the opinion that Peds won't overwhelm the game. In fact, If we could convince our "in-house" map maker to build a few maps specifically designed with peds in mind. Abandoned towns with crates of goodies, ravines with hidden tunnel entrances with MORE goodies stashed inside... All would be guarded by the appropriate pirate cars you must defeat in order to get out and search for extra loot. (We should also be able to choose between a regular scout map or a scout/ped map.) It might take some coding work by Sam to make the loot screen available by clicking a prompt. This would allow the winner of the scout to continue driving around looking for the "stash" the pirates were guarding and get close enough for the peds to exit, search and loot everything available quickly. Sometimes the "stash" might be too far from the defeated pirates to enable looting of the cars too.... So you'd have to pick either the cars or the "stash". "Hidey-holes" might be pinpointed by an 'off-color' tree, or a strange formation in the terrain. Peds could be made to work for their keep with these ideas, although it would take longer to implement. Just a few thoughts. JD |
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Seiler Posted Feb 14, 2008, 11:23 pm |
One thing that may need to be emphasized is stress effects, since stress should dramatically reduce a footman's effectiveness, thus courage & leadership, and perhaps some special skills such as discipline training, courage under fire, etc... are much more important for an effective infantry team or squad to operate. Severe stress may not break a man, but it'll definitely reduce his ability to return fire effectively. | ||||||||
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*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Feb 14, 2008, 11:43 pm |
Or reduce his 'squad leader' ability. Specialisms Handguns Default is ability to handle a .45 auto. 20 skill: ability to use and handle a Thompson SMG 50 skill: ability to use and handle a BAR/SAW .30 cal auto 100 skill: ability to mount and use grenade launchers on diff weapons. 150 skill: ability to use .50 cal Sniper Rifle. (Must use a 'spotter' to be effective) -------Continued--------- |
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Dr Mathias Posted Feb 15, 2008, 12:55 am |
Firelight maps sure aren't designed for cars... I can't imagine bandits in that area using them. They'd all be on foot... maybe making barricades you need to blast through. Shouldnt be too hard since we have destructible terrain. |
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Jansan Posted Feb 15, 2008, 1:03 am |
I wouldn't mind specialities in those aeras, but I don't want hard skill limits on what I can or can't equip. Reminds me too much of level-based games. I wouldn't mind sucking with heavier weaopns until my skill is higher though. As long as I can equip them beforehand. |
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madmax Posted Feb 15, 2008, 1:49 am |
Yeah rigid can and can't use doesnt make sense to me. I dont shoot much but I could still fire a .50 cal albeit not very effectively. |
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Jansan Posted Feb 15, 2008, 2:29 am |
Yeah, I've always had a problem with hard requirements.
I've never thrown a grenade, or fired a shotgun, but I'm sure if I picked one of those up they wouldn't jump out of my hands and say, "You don't have enough skill to use me!" |
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*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Feb 15, 2008, 2:52 am |
OK..I didnt mean "Hard requirements.."
Just a base number of skill to be proficient on the weapon. newb/0-20 No Targeting or contiuous fire bonuses Decent/21-30 No continuous fire bonuses/ normal Targeting bonus Good/31-40 normal Targeting and continuous fire bonuses apply Proficient/41-50 Normal Target bonus/ +2 continuous fire apply Marksman/51-75 +1 Target / +3 continuous fire Mark II/76-100 +3 Target / +3 continuous fire Mark III/101-150 +2 Target / +4 continuous fire Sniper/151 +5 Target / +5 continuous |
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Jansan Posted Feb 15, 2008, 3:01 am |
Oh sure then, I'm down with that, JD. |
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*Toecutter* Posted Feb 15, 2008, 6:30 am |
heheh thanx JD and i'm sure every survivor of the Battle of Jutland thanx u too 
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madmax Posted Feb 18, 2008, 1:23 am |
Just found this on worth 1000
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Kance Tzu Posted Feb 20, 2008, 10:00 pm |
I can see crew served weapons such as mortars, recoilless rifles, bazookas, and (very rare) guided missile launchers such as a Dragon or even TOW being a threat to armored vehicles. But single-man portables which can significantly damage a vehicle specifically designed for combat -- as cars in DW are -- should be limited to LAW rockets, grenades, and other such "one-shotters." Even the anti-tank rifles from WWII were crew-served weapons. And any machinegun heavier than a M249 SAW is a crew-served weapon -- even M-60s. Sure, you can John Wayne an M-60, but I can tell you from experience that it's worth very little other than suppressing fire when used in such a manner. It requires extra barrels, lots of very heavy ammunition, and at the very least bipod deployment to really be effective in its intended role.
Just draw a clear line between the above items and pistols, rifles, SMGs, etc. Those shouldn't have to worry about ammo, because they shouldn't be capable of significantly damaging an armored vehicle. But the morale issue someone above brought up should be addressed. I was taught and practiced the "spider-hole" armor ambush technique when I was a Marine infantryman, and I can tell you that it takes Big Swinging' Nutz to sit calmly in a hole in the ground while tanks roll around and over you, then pop up behind them and shoot a one-shot rocket at the engine compartment. As with most things in combat, it's a lot easier to say it than it is to do it. There is, however, one other idea that should be addressed in regards to pedestrians: mines. It's possible for a single person to man-port an anti-armor mine, even though they are quite heavy. Dropped in the right place, even one mine could noticeably impact a fight. Oh, and GREAT GAME, Sam. Just found it two weeks ago and I'm already irretrievably addicted.
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*sam* Posted Feb 20, 2008, 10:18 pm |
madmax: nice pic! We should make a few signs like that up for the racetracks 
kance: glad you're enjoying it
yeah, mines should definitely be an option for peds. I'm just working on the inventory side of things right now. |
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*Diablo Vash* diablovash@gmail.com Posted Feb 20, 2008, 10:35 pm |
this is all sounding great sam, wonder if there will be anything good for peds in racing :P | ||||||||
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Jansan Posted Feb 20, 2008, 10:42 pm |
Mines are a great idea.
As for racing D.V., you can do what I did in Road Rash. One time when I got knocked off my motorcyle, I ran to the finish line and crossed it on foot. If that's legal, that means if you have a large enough lead you could still win even if someone blasts your engine if you're close enough to the finish line. Also, I insist on the ability when in combat to open the car door, punch the driver in the face, pull them out of the vehicle, and hurl them to the ground while they yell out "Not my wheels, dog!" I kid on that one. |
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*sam* Posted Feb 20, 2008, 10:46 pm |
I was thinking about that one actually. Presumably we should outlaw handweapons in races, and possibly make them contribute to the vehicle's CR in combats and deathraces? |
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Jansan Posted Feb 20, 2008, 10:48 pm |
That makes the most sense. If the CR isn't counted for hand-held weapons, people will just field the heavier weapons (even though I"d hope the lighter weapons have their own pros/cons like most vehicle weapons do, quicker reload, lighter, less inventory space on character, etc). |
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*Diablo Vash* diablovash@gmail.com Posted Feb 20, 2008, 10:56 pm |
*starts talking to himself about peds flying out of car windows when a big ram happens or peds needing to get out of the car and run to the side lines to forfit a race*
oh.....i aint got a sick mind or anyhting
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Jansan Posted Feb 20, 2008, 11:01 pm |
Haha, it's not like we aren't already shooting each other and getting shrapnel lodged into our brains. |
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*Diablo Vash* diablovash@gmail.com Posted Feb 20, 2008, 11:03 pm |
true, but then again a question for sam is if they lose a arm or leg will we see the effect and will it effect them? (sorry sam but had to be asked  )
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*sam* Posted Feb 20, 2008, 11:16 pm |
No, all characters will visually have all limbs. I don't have the graphics development resources to fix that (a 1-legged character would need totally different animations, etc.) A character with less than 100% activity will however run slower. We can assume that all characters get wooden prothestics or something. |
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Jansan Posted Feb 20, 2008, 11:24 pm |
This is very exciting. I'm already saving up money for hand-held weapons.
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*Diablo Vash* diablovash@gmail.com Posted Feb 20, 2008, 11:26 pm |
sounds good to me sam. | ||||||||
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*Diablo Vash* diablovash@gmail.com Posted Mar 5, 2008, 8:51 am |
any updates on peds sam? | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Mar 5, 2008, 10:01 am |
Still working on them. I'm very busy at work this week and next week but after that I should be able to get a lot done.
So far I have them running around, animated, climbing in and out of cars, getting damaged when hit by cars, switching weapons. Still need to work on several things - hand weapons and related sounds and explosions/particles, vehicles shooting at characters (with blood particle effects and 'pain' sound effects), looting with characters as 'containers'. The whole resignation/demoralisation code will need checking carefully. We actually have a nice idea about customising characters, which (if it works out) will let you custom-pick colours for jacket, trousers/skirt, and hair. |
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Jansan Posted Mar 5, 2008, 10:15 am |
Sounds great, thanks for the update Sam! Really like the custom-color idea.
I know some of the gangs here want to have color-matching clothing and stuff like a gang from the Warriors or sporting "colors" like a real gang, so that'd be a great addition. 
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*Diablo Vash* diablovash@gmail.com Posted Mar 5, 2008, 12:36 pm |
Wow sam it all sounds sweet man, some of us noticed the new character info layout and the new equip button and were wonder how it was going. | ||||||||
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*Lugal* Posted Mar 11, 2008, 8:28 pm |
I was thinking about this today and was curious how hand weapon recoil is going to be handled. Vehicular / mounted weapons benefit from continuous fire on a target, but generally handheld weapons suffer from it.
What I'm thinking is keeping the continuous aiming bonus, but inverting the continuous fire bonus as a penalty to account for recoil. This would encourage people to space their fire into "bursts" (ie every other second). This could help balance ped weapons if ammo isn't tracked (being an idea discussed here). Otherwise I'm imagining uninterrupted shooting from turn two until combat ends. |
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*sam* Posted Mar 11, 2008, 8:52 pm |
Probably depends on the weapon type, and the strength of the character firing it? I can see how an MG would do this, but possibly less so with a rifle or pistol? Surely it's more-than offset in some weapon types by the accuracy gained by continuous fire?
It is being tracked. |
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Seiler Posted Mar 11, 2008, 9:43 pm |
There should be a severe accuracy penalty for anything but very close range firing from very small (handguns, assault carbines) weapons systems if the pedestrian is moving at a steady pace, and sprinting should make it nearly impossible to hit anything. Unless you have a baseball bat.... | ||||||||
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Jansan Posted Mar 11, 2008, 11:19 pm |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AA9xYkiHJY 43 seconds in! On a seperate note, I imagine pistols will be super accurate, especially at close ranges. Better carry a lot of clips though with all these armored vehicles around though. |
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Seiler Posted Mar 12, 2008, 12:47 am |
God I hope not, unlike Halo, etc, pistols are inaccurate as hell. There's a reason we carry rifles and carbines in the Army. If your butt depends on a pistol, and the other guy has a rifle, you're 100 times more likely to be the dude pushing up daisies at the end of the day. 35m is the max effective range of the M9 pistol per army regs, and that's at a standing target in the open. Someone blasting away with his carbine in a somewhat aimed fashion has a decent chance of putting down a standing target at 3 times that distance. Now take into effect the fact that guys who are getting shot at don't simply stand around waiting to get hit. |
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Jansan Posted Mar 12, 2008, 1:14 am |
I know they have a shorter range, but are they really that inaccurate under 30m? You would know better than I would Seiler. Oh speaking of sniping with pistols, that reminds me of Battlefield 2. If you've played that one, that always seemed a little off to me. The range was unrealistically impressive. |
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Seiler Posted Mar 12, 2008, 1:22 am |
Yeah, pistols are freaking ridiculously inaccurate, and before anyone brings up Rob Leatham and Todd Jarrett or any of the IPSC events, those are finely tuned weapons that have too tight a tolerance to be used in a combat situation, used in situations that don't accurately reflect combat. They can be impressive, but they are inaccurate to use. They are a last ditch defense, most often used in the 3-10 meter range, and are preferred because they take up so little weight and space. If you're expecting a close in fight get a shotgun or SMG. If you aren't, you'll probably be carrying your pistol. If you're out looking for trouble, bring an assault rifle. Or a SAW.
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*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Mar 12, 2008, 2:01 am |
For close and intermediate ranges, gimme a SAW or a tommy-gun.
I dont care how many bullets miss at that range because I'm damn sure gonna hit something! Aim at the belt and let the recoil lift the barrel and open them up like a zipper! The only thing I want a .45 auto pistol for is the poor bastard trying to car jack me. |
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Seiler Posted Mar 12, 2008, 2:16 am |
Well go for the paratrooper variant of the SAW then, the old one is too cumbersome for close range. | ||||||||
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*Lugal* Posted Mar 12, 2008, 5:13 am |
I guess it depends on how 'continuous fire' is interpreted. Does that mean basically holding the trigger until the Stop Fire command is given, or does that factor in a (less than a second) pause between shots/bursts to resight your weapon? If the later, than this is moot. If the former, then I'd say very few infantry weapons would benefit from non-stop fire. Recoil builds up with successive shots, and your rounds start going wild. The few exceptions that come to mind would be higher-end submachine guns (which can hold a decent shot group even full auto), effectively recoilless weapons such as flamethrowers, or exotics such as Metal Storm technology. Based on how that's viewed, weapon type could be a factor. I think character strength could be a factor either way. On a side note, being a veteran of the US Marines myself, I've used a variety of infantry weapons in a range of settings, and am happy to toss in my experiences. I also back Seiler's comments, not that he needs it.
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Seiler Posted Mar 12, 2008, 9:10 am |
Well it's all a matter of how to interpret the game vs. reality. I totally agree that continuous fire of many weapon systems breeds bad shots and wasted ammo, but then again, we were taught to drop 2-3 second bursts from the 240B, in truth machine guns are as much suppressive as they are killers. Basically for sustained MG fire maybe the first turn is reasonably accurate, the second adds a tiny percent (walking the rounds on to the target, if you're close) and the third the accuraccy starts to die off, with the forth being about 50% of the third, and so forth. I think we'll be able to put our heads together and come up with some reasonable solutions/alterations when we actually see gameplay and get a feel for it.
It's just a matter of making the game feel right, since grunt stuff is actually quite complicated in RL (no game can do it justice), and depends as much on you knowing your buddy's mind as well as your enemy's. One thing I've always wondered with Metal Storm, is what poor PFC has to reload the damn thing
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Jansan Posted Mar 12, 2008, 8:47 pm |
Sam, I was curious if you have an updated time frame on when we'll first see some on-foot action? Are things on schedule, ahead, or a little behind?
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*sam* Posted Mar 12, 2008, 8:51 pm |
I think I'm more-or-less on schedule. It's hard to be exact because I tend to sketch out the broad plan without working out the fine details of exactly what's required until I get there.
Next week I hope to get a good amount of time so we will hopefully be seeing peds in-game by the end of next week. I have just implemented 'unturtling' of cars, and I'm working on handweapons and also the particle effects when characters get hit by handweapons and carweapons. |
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Marrkos Posted Mar 12, 2008, 8:53 pm |
Because after they get hit with any carweapon that's all that's left...particles.
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Speed_Melon Posted Mar 12, 2008, 9:00 pm |
Yay, A DeTurtl-a-la-tor! | ||||||||
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Jansan Posted Mar 12, 2008, 10:02 pm |
Great stuff, thanks for the update! Anti-turtling!
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Seiler Posted Mar 12, 2008, 11:05 pm |
What about unturtling of peds? Considering how some people drive around here, I can envision some peds on their backs in the "dying ####roach" position... |
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jeansberg Posted Mar 13, 2008, 12:17 am |
Even a single hit from an HMG shouldn't leave much else, I agree.
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Seiler Posted Mar 13, 2008, 12:25 am |
Actually you might be surprised at how much damage a human body can take before being unrecognizable...
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Jansan Posted Mar 13, 2008, 1:14 am |
The human body is weird like that. You hear about the poor guy who fell off a step ladder changing a light bulb and snapped his neck, and another guy who fell out of an airplane and just broke a few bones. Perhaps injuries are like real estate: Location, location, location! |
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Valiance Posted Mar 13, 2008, 1:29 am |
There was a guy who was cutting his lawn with one of those strimmer things.
While wearing open-toed sandals. He had a toe cut off by the strimmer. The kicker is that the disconnected toe flew up and took his left eye out. |
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Jansan Posted Mar 13, 2008, 1:33 am |
That's terrible. And that's also why I don't do lawn work. Well, that and because it's too hot out. Also, I don't feel like it.
I'm really glad the peds are on track. I'm itching to be able to get out of my death trap of a car once the engine goes! |
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Mad Mike Posted Mar 13, 2008, 3:12 am |
I'd love to see ped to ped combat, is that included?
punching and kicking? |
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ISHOULDCOCO Posted Mar 13, 2008, 8:21 am |
At the height of 'the troubles' in Ireland , a terrorist was shot 18 times with 9mm and survived in an infaction war. He survived. Seilers is right about pistols though - they are virtually hand to hand weapons of self defense. COCO |
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darthspanky Posted Mar 13, 2008, 9:42 am |
i hope we can use our fists mike send a ped squad to the bar and start punching people lol | ||||||||
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Jansan Posted Mar 13, 2008, 10:03 am |
Punching and kicking is good. Bullets run out! And some people don't carry bats.
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Seiler Posted Mar 13, 2008, 10:09 am |
9mm is short for 9 "Mickey Mouse", not millimeter
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't wanna get shot by an air rifle, let alone a 9mm, but when I'm doing the shooting, I want to put my guy down, and know he's not gonna shoot back anymore. |
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*viKKing* Posted Mar 13, 2008, 12:17 pm |
When it's not the day to die, it is not.
There are many examples of people surviving or taking insane amount of bullet hits. 1) French resistant, 18 MP40 bullets (maybe it was mixed with Mauser bullets, I don't know), escaped the final head shot due to a bombing alert and dived into the Rhone river. 2) A british soldier reported an opponent at whom he had to shot 5 .223 (5.56 mm) to nail him down. He was using a M16 instead of the regular weapon (sorry I'm getting old, I don't recall the name; LR1a?) and wished he had the 7.62 mm ammunition instead. 3) Should I remind you the bravery of US soldier Rodger Young? Edit: and yes 9 mm is a bitch, penetrating from one point and eventually leaving from elsewhere, causing major damages to internal organs. This is due to the round shape of the bullet and average power when leaving the gun (muzzle velocity). I heard stories of bullets penetrating in the chest and leaving through the leg, because each time the bullet was hitting a bone too hard to pass through, it was heading to a different direction. |
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Mad Mike Posted Mar 13, 2008, 2:55 pm |
read a book about Vietnam and a helicopter pilot landed and when the ground grew looked saw two bullet holes on each side of his helmet directly across from each other. apparently the bullet entered one side, traveled along the top of the helmet on the inside and exited the other side. looked like the bullet when through his head but didn't. | ||||||||
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Penetrator Posted Mar 13, 2008, 5:31 pm |
that is one lucky SOB! Killing People with guns is all about location, dispersion of energy, and exit wound. In Somilia (black hawk down) some of the special forces were complaining that they couldn't knock down the sammies with the 5.56 rnd but it wasn't the size it was that they had mixed up with some Armour piercing rnds. Because the AP rnd would not deform when hitting flesh it just flew threw. But get it to deform and release that energy of the bullet into the body it will make a person stutter if not fall down know what I m sayin? |
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*viKKing* Posted Mar 13, 2008, 10:29 pm |
Yes, that's the difference between "dum-dum" and armor piercing bullets. High impact versus high penetration.
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Jansan Posted Mar 14, 2008, 4:56 am |
Speaking of air-vehicles ... When do we get helicopters?
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