Discussion - 'No More Free First Repair'
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*sam* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 11:07 am |
Apparently there's some unhappiness about the recent change I made which has gotten rid of the 'free first repair' of chassis so they can get to 100% health after they have first been looted, even if they were badly damaged in the fight that captured them.
So I figured it best to start a discussion..... ------------------------------- Some arguments I have heard are: 1) it has essentially rendered damaged loot worthless... you can carefully demo a car with a flechette gun and still find it has perm chassis damage (my response: personally, I don't think a 97% chassis should be considered worthless. It is 97% as good in all respects (speed, handling, strength) - you'd be hard pressed to actually notice the difference in the field, in fact 2) it means that chassis produced in camp or brought via HP are now worth much more.. (my response: this may be true, although it really depends on whether people's over-strong focus on having 100% equipment changes) 3) it seems to me to be a complete shift away from the focus of the game being on looting cars towards buying them. (my response: slightly true perhaps, although I think saying it's a 'complete' shift is pushing it..) 4) it will have an inflationary effect on prices of rares as more of them are damaged. (my response: it will also mean that partially-damaged stuff gets passed down to other players, and stop people hoarding stuff and start using it more; this in turn will help the unbalanced manufacturing economy. It will actually let me release more rares into the game if people start losing them more) 5) it forces people down one style of scouting.. ie. kill the people in the first 10 cars so the last 2 demo untouched... people should be free to choose how much of a 'killer' they are (my response: not sure, what do others think?) |
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Karz Master Posted Oct 28, 2009, 11:14 am |
People are sensitive to their cars being perma-damaged, Sam. That's how deep the extent of attachment you have created between players and their gangers or vehicles. A monster in Darkwind is born 
Seriously though, it's true people are attached to their cars. Just...something about car ownership in this game that makes people love their cars. Ok, I speak for myself at least. Even till now, I'm still sad that Selina can't be repaired beyond 100%, even though she's saved my gangers numerous times. In fact, I prioritize her above all my other cars, preferring to save her than my other Apache Serena. Oh and you can tell how strong my attachment is when I prefer to use article "her" instead of "it" 
Personally, I'm fine either way, as I realized that 97% is, as you said, "it is 97% as good in all respects (speed, handling, strength) - you'd be hard pressed to actually notice the difference in the field, in fact". If I have to nitpick an issue, it would be that the 97% is sooooo jarring compared to 100%, and as I said, for me it's because of my attachment to my cars in Darkwind. Personally, I have no strong opinions regarding this. I would, though, like to see mechs being able to have the spec to repair perma-damage, albeit at the cost of 2x longer time - so players have to weigh the pros and cons between selling the perm-damaged chassis, repairing them at 2x the time needed for non perma-damaged, or not doing anything to them. |
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 11:22 am |
I raisd this with Sam following a discussion with Ninesticks. My response to sams responses would be this...
I understand sams points above but i cant see any great benefit from the change where i can see lots of down sides... if there is no real advantage why do it? I cant see what the change was intended to achieve... If there is no benefit then wven if teh effects Sam lists are not as serious as I think they are then it shouldnt be done. anecdotally i can only say that i have been selling cars to the shop (damaged apaches and landys) that i would have been repairing and putting in the market because i think people in SS will wait for a car to appear in the shop rather than buy a 'broken' one. as long as there are 100% vehicles available in the markets and shops this will render any loot car damaged in combat pretty much worthless. I would like to see us move to an economy where looting cars or winning them in races is the main way of securing even the more common chassis types. The change seems to me to push us away from that towards an economy that is based on buying cars with HPs or buying them in camp. |
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*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Oct 28, 2009, 11:25 am |
I don't really have any strong opinions on any of them except argument 5.
In my opinion killing 10 cars to get the 2 best ones is a decent way to go. Most people in darkwind (that I have come across) hunt pirates. And so, Killing everyone earns you hero points, bounties and some 100% chassis'. Happy days all round. 
Edit. ------------------ Went on a scout yesterday and saw a pirate escape at town gates, don't think this should happen, as everyone in SS hates pirates. |
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 11:29 am |
i have never been very happy about the whole killing people bit.. it never sits well with my RP mindset. I would like to see pirates demo quicker when they get thoroughly beaten (ie when the damage they are inflicting is substantially less than they are taking) rather than on the basis of blue/ red text.
never been overly happy with a lot of the blue text if i am honest... seems a bit macabre and sick. Its not ok to say F*** in the lobby but it is ok to put stuff about peoples jawbones beinf rammed through their heads? thats a little weird. |
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*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Oct 28, 2009, 11:34 am |
well goat, i'm part of the generation which is growing up with games where putting bullets through peoples animated, pixilated skulls is part of everyday life. so a bit of text with "face explodes into a gazillion pieces" doesn't really affect me 
Edit. ----------- just to emphasise the point, Resident evil 5 just came through the letterbox
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*sam* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 11:44 am |
That will make wilderness combats easier though goat, I know you for one reckon they're too easy already.
To me, this is actually a more persuasive argument than your original ones
Why make the change? (1) it was actually a bug fix. The original 'free fix' was not originally intended, but I left it in as nobody complained. (2) See below.. it's about creating a 'wear-out' economy. Actually I still think we're being over-generous letting stuff only lose 3% per fix. Something like losing 20% of the amount actually being repaired at the time might be more realistic and better for the economy.
Me too. I'd also like to see a more realistic and dynamic 'wear-out' cycle for equipment. In the real world, if you smash your car in a bad crash or whack it repeatedly with rocket launchers, it's never going to be the same again. Plus, wearing out of equipment would go a long way to helping the economy work better.
There's other ways to achieve the above though goat. What about if the NPC shops started to deliver less and less equipment? What if the stuff you bought in the NPC shops or made in camp was already at less than 100%? Everyone is ok with perma-death of characters. Why? Because the game always worked that way. But they don't like perma-death of equipment. Why? IMO mostly because they're used to not having it, not because it's actually a bad thing to have. |
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The Paranoid Tourist Posted Oct 28, 2009, 12:01 pm |
At first I thought that I'd hate this change, but now I'm rather indifferent.
I run less-than-100% vehicles all of the time. While I feel that I do notice a difference on some of them in terms of durability, I still run them anyway if they're something that I want or can't easily replace. Goat's argument of "what's the real advantage?" is about as good of one as I've heard, though, as the only thing that this change seems to do is lower our standards (eventually). There will be a whole generation of players who find 100% chassis to be a luxury, and are happy to use chassis at 90%. . . maybe even below! But is that an advantage or just a change? I guess that my typical style of play makes this change work for me, as I often annihilate the first several vehicles just to watch the rest fall by themselves, so I end up bringing home 100% chassis, anyway. |
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The Paranoid Tourist Posted Oct 28, 2009, 12:06 pm |
It's because equipment is often not easily replaceable, and, under a wear-out system, hardly avoidable. If I lost even just 1% of my fire engine every time that I took it out I wouldn't take it out. I don't know when or if I'll ever get a new one so I don't want to ruin the one that I have. Now, if I knew that I could get a new fire engine every 10 scouts, I might risk one to get one, but then where's the thrill of the hunt? Suddenly that super rare chassis is common. Wearing vehicles out sounds like something which would just lead to more hoarding, as I won't want to take a near-irreplaceable fire engine unless I've got another one in my garage to keep for "emergencies" or even just as a trophy. |
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 12:07 pm |
dont agree with that... pounding people till they die is perfectly easy... anything that made it advantageous to NOT damage any loot cars would mean more demoed cars driving around and if you ask any player how they lose characters it is almost always to demoed vehicles.
I agree with that.. but if you dont restrict the flow from camps and shops all you will get is a replace economy. I would get rid of the shops entirely.. for everything.. ammo, chassis weapons.... perhaps have a trickle through of ammo (proper barter... make ammo and fuel be worth a fortune... now you have a hammer we finally have a weapon that needs no ammo... great!) i would allow camps to make ammo, food, water but not chassis or weapons. but if you are not going to do all of that (which i dont believe you can because of teh ####storm of protest it will get from vets then implementing the permadamage stuff adds nothing because people can simply not use permadamaged vehicles and weapons. to make that work you need scarcity. Implementing a bit of it just adds a hassle to people without fundamentally adding anything to the game. I am a bit worried that you are going down a route of incremental changes towards a vision that will just mean years oof wrangling. If it were me i woudl take the hit now.. lose some of the older subscribers but make the game you want... |
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*sam* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 12:16 pm |
Hmm, yeah this is what Zothen always tells me too. |
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The Paranoid Tourist Posted Oct 28, 2009, 12:41 pm |
Maybe you should just leave this game more-or-less as it is, then create Darkwind II: Sam's Vision.
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Oct 28, 2009, 12:55 pm |
And it is a point very well made, i have no problems with perna damage, i would have no problem with higher perma damage. In RL i drive a ten year old peugeot, its a pile of crap i would estimate the chasis to be 90% and engine around 85% of what it was when it came of the assembly line, i live in suburban Leicester with no aurora and very little guns ( it is leicester so there are a few ). My point is we drive these DW vehicles over terrain that would kill most family cars, drop them over ridges, roll them, get them shot, continiously change weapon mounts and engines and have collision damage. And still some complain that there vehicles cant be repaired back to 100 % I hesitate to use the real world analogy as it doesnt always sit right with me, BUT in game terms, these vehicles would be useless after a few scouts however good your mechanics are, they certainly dont run a kwik fit with untold new parts sitting in wrappers do they. In my humble opinion, perma damage should raise and raise by a significant amount, people would have the choice to hoard still but pay the costs in garage fees, new vehicles should become as rare to purchase as some are as rare to find in the wild ( camps should be restricted to the amount of super rares they produce each game year, and never be able to manufacture a brand new chassis, they are not GM after all . People wanted individuality in there vehicles, take them out with 96% v8s and 95% chassis, i do in the hope there long service will gain them the respect they rightly deserve, the damge makes me love them even more and respect there abilities still, in some ways i get more upset getting damage to an already damaged loved vehicle than one that is pristine, as pristine shouldn't really happen in the apocalypse after all. Demo killing its tedious and mostly pointless, its an means to an end and one that isn't giving much back to the game. We all know to kill a marauder but why should it have to be killed 'red dead' its just grinding...it makes a decent fun scout deteriorate into ' ok what do i have to kill now' mentality, and then sit and pound, pound, pound. |
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Ivan Kerensky Posted Oct 28, 2009, 1:09 pm |
Well 2 things :
1- Scouting are too easy when player mass murder heap of AI cars with indirect weapons/ massive concentration of fire from unreachable/hard to reach position. Scout aren't that much easy in flat area when AI and players cars are in more related power. 2- I would agree that 97% isn't so bad as 100%, except that the 97% car will never escape the 100% one. Wich isn't something I woul call inoquous. Sam, would you tell me if you are using Flat percentile or Geometrical percentile for effectiveness ? if using flat percentile 97% state produce 97% effect, with geometrical 97% state produce 97%x97% effect = 94%. Flat isn't such a big deal but is a bit dry. Geometrical is better because it give more importance to higher percentile and when things start going low they break faster. All in all I would say : keep the first repair 100%, it make sense. And if 97% isn't so a big deal after all, why care downing it to 97% ? the argument go both way. I dont think the first repair have any effect on hoarding of car. Ok you can fix it from whatever state you got him to 100% WHEN YOU LOOT HIM (not sales or trade, even juste the first time for all the car life would be better). But that means the next time you use it and it is hit he go lower than 100% and you cant fix it back to 100%. So you dont use it not to have it damaged. Now if you cant repair it back to 100% what is the difference ? you still wont use it in dangerous situation because it is not 100% best efficient and you will keep it in hoard just for show and safe action. The only way you are going to solve this is to put a life expectancy on every game part (engine, tyres, chassis), with extra maintenance cost being paid for thoses to keep 100% when they go past this duration. That is what it is in real life... There is some chassis out there that are 100 years old, what they cost to maintain this way is an arm and a leg and you probably wont be able to use them to battle either. Frankly what really is in balance is : game balance and your vision of what game attrition should be. I dont think you can produce a balanced game environnement for a very simple reason : the real thing isn't balanced at all. There is over-production, inflation, deflation, engenired scarcity, crash, the whole economical thing is completely instable, you cant expect to have a stable one in a post-apo world. |
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Ivan Kerensky Posted Oct 28, 2009, 1:11 pm |
And the easy way to eliminate Démo killing is to simply have NPC gang not using all pristine cars... just like player. have a small share of them pristine and the rest, used... | ||||||||
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Barbu Posted Oct 28, 2009, 1:34 pm |
I think that would be nice. I mean that 100% chassis would really worth something being rarer and it would make it more logic that there is much more damaged cars than brand new one! | ||||||||
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*jimmylogan* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 1:35 pm |
In direct response to Sam's points...
1) disagree with it being worthless - I use things down to 95% (91% in one particular renowned vehicle). I understand others might not want to use them, and they have that choice, but it becomes somewhat of a money sink to continue replacing with 100% gear. 2) agree with Sam in that 100% chassis value is dependent on the buyer. Yes, produced items and HP items are "newer," but like you say you can have that be less than 100% as well to offset. 3) is the focus on looting anyway? In SS when I was new, yes, but down south looting cars is secondary. I *always* save room for the crew in the main vehicles so I can drop loot on a return encounter. My playstyle is already to demo/blue/then kill for bounties and if loot is there fine; if not fine. 4) agree with Sam's response. We've already seen this to a degree with V8's in SS... 5) I disagree that it forces to one style of scouting. I will go further to say that scouting "for loot" is not the only reason to scout... From camp, I like to loot items that break down for better CPS/EPS (rockets & CR's mainly). Phoenixes and Sunrises are nice to repair and drive back to SS to sell. Pickups and Mooses bring less, but also worth it. From town, it's to either help keep piracy down for easier travels or for hero points. I will say that I loot what I can - no doubt - but that's not the ONLY reason to scout. Gameplay is still king. 
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*jimmylogan* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 1:43 pm |
For the record, I was here when perma-damage was discussed and then implemented. Yes, there was some backlash, but it wasn't as bad as people expected and everyone adjusted. I think this will be the same way.
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*jimmylogan* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 1:48 pm |
I agree with this, but it's also more fun to "win" most of the time.
The AI has improved, though, and will "stop and regroup" when they face a firing line. They will also turn and flee more, or at least get out of range. Not perfect, but better...
I assume you mean in a flat out race? Driver skill has MUCH more to say about speed and handling, I believe, than 3% of a chassis or engine...
Based on Sam's other posts, I think that's the goal here - to help build a "wear out" world... |
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Jety Posted Oct 28, 2009, 2:10 pm |
I don't like it, but I recognize that it is probably a very good change. And in the big picture this isn't about a few percent on your chassis, it's about the total mindset you want to have in Darkwind. It is probably better to make one big dramatic change than many wrangling little ones.
However, being the diplomat that you are, this might be the proper time to give something back that the players have been clamoring for for quite a while: the ability to customize cars. With chassis percentages, if every car is a unique snowflake, why not allow us to make them truly unique. A chassis reinforcement here, an extra luggage compartment there, a larger engine cause you welded the front of a Marley onto the back of an alpha. Whatever. I think good positive changes are the good way to offset negative (for players) changes. Many players would love the ability to tweak the existing fixed parameters of the chassis/engines, and I think it would add a great layer of depth. |
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Ivan Kerensky Posted Oct 28, 2009, 2:12 pm |
Customisation of chassis is one thing that I wont approach with a 10' pool...
You need to keep some standard unit if you want to be able to balance things. Chassis seems like the right spot for it. |
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 2:36 pm |
if it isnt then that has to be the stupidest thing in the game.. this is the post apocalypse.. we cant keep the pirate hoards down but there is an inexhaustible supply of brand new cars rolling off the production lines... the suspension of disbelief just broke down completely. |
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Ivan Kerensky Posted Oct 28, 2009, 3:02 pm |
As I already said a few months ago... thats is the whole Dark-Wind dilemna.
You cant have a world permanently striffing in post-apocalysp level of technology. There is only 2 solution possible : 1- The technology disappear totally when the last vaults are found and the items all break. 2- The technology reappear after a few years/months of scarcity when production line are re-opened and workable again. So you cant have a permanent Madmax setting, you had to choose : go back to pre-industrial setting or go up to Car Wars setting. In fact in the current DW world there is a scarcity that isn't well taken into account : peoples. The death rating is very strong, a lot of people must be required to production of food and energy. I think there is far too much gangers avaliable, what is the reproduction rate of the current population ? what are the town population supposed to be ? |
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*Longo* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 3:06 pm |
Im just going to hoard more Sam. Easy enough. Until you nerf storage or whatever to try and elimate hoarding further. Then my muscle cars will go , my apaches...etc.
Edit - I was really mad yesterday though when my previously never damaged lorry was breached and took chassis damage, and I repaired it and it repaired to 93%. Not cool. Makes lorries very disposable. |
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*Longo* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 3:31 pm |
Well you can listen to the unsubbed Zothen, who hasnt played in a year? Or you can listen to the people like Ole Longo, whos paid and played uninterrupted since December 2007.
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*Tinker* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 3:49 pm |
Maybe there is too much information that invites too much "tight wad" maniac behavior in regards to equipment,
instead of using percentages, what about something more general to make the pile easier to swallow? i.e. A+,A, A-, B+, B, B-,C+ etc? or Mint, Excellent, good, worn in, broke in, feeling fatigued, beaten down, worn-out, junker? and perhaps have it so regular damage is always tallied-in through the life time of the vehicle? edit: and make make the damage indicators funny? a little humor would go a long ways |
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Ivan Kerensky Posted Oct 28, 2009, 3:53 pm |
Interesting idea Tinkers... except it is pretty easy to translate behaviour : 100%=A+=Mint...
You wont know the exact number, you will act the same. |
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*Tinker* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 3:55 pm |
true the grading system is too accurate, but also the new players would be ignorant to the previous system | ||||||||
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ISHOULDCOCO Posted Oct 28, 2009, 4:03 pm |
Nothing is scared.
Everything decays. This is the apocalypse, after all. The game needs more 'turnover' of rare items, anyway. I drive common chassis down to 95% COCO |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 4:08 pm |
Well I have to admit to having a severe case of histrionics when I first read about this bugfix. Now I have let myself have time to settle down and think about it and reading this forum, I find myself flip-flopping and seeing that the positive outweighs the negatives.
As per other comments, if you have a certain destination in mind Sam then it would be good to just take that big step. I actually like the idea of the amount of permadamage being directly related to how much you are fixing. Bring on the permadamage! |
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Fealty Lost Posted Oct 28, 2009, 4:20 pm |
Okay then:
Sam, it's my vision ( and game history bears it out ) that there are very few people left alive after the 'solar event' and the resulting breakdown of sustainability of those still left...so; There should be a SH_TLOAD of cars laying around. That's a good thing. There's also less moisture...so cars last longer...another good thing. However, we have chosen to use these cars to run things over, load weapons onto and eviscerate those we don't like...that's also a good thing, and a bad thing. Why? Well, slaughtering people is fun...IRL and ingame. But, the equipment we use wasn't made to get shot up. Any body-shop people out there? So, declining reliability and 'shelf life,' ( manufacturers call it Planned Obsolecense ) is a GOOD thing. How much patching can you do to a chassis before the integrity becomes compromised? They should fall apart. Vehicles in the game are just tools. Tools break, you get new ones. Sometimes you can't get the same tools you had before. You're going to have to work at it. You might be one of the misguided that thinks having 'rare' vehicles is great...but in the game...in a world where these things are nothing more than tools for survival...having a 'rare' vehicle, where EVERYTHING about keeping it functioning would be a burden...it doesn't make sense. But that's how I think. Most people are of the 'things' mentality. ...having what others don't makes them feel 'special.' Now, until we are allowed 'personal' garages, where we can spend our hard-earned cash keeping these vehicles in tip-top shape (there's your money sink), with full-on body-shop equipment, frame straightening machines, alignment machines, metal-working equipment (and the metal to use in them), vehicles and equipment, through use, should degrade, especially from damage sustained in combat. As far as 'rares' in the game, where vehicles are concerned, only the rich should have them. They should be choked down even more. Want that bad-arsed sports car? Then join the racing leagues, live long enough to get sponsored by the uber-rich, who then let you borrow one to compete with. Legends are born. However, the racing leagues would need a major overhaul. NPC 'companies' would have to come into existense. Vehicles should have a MAJOR overhaul. Options should be expanded for all of them ( engine choice, suspension choice, etc. ), this alone would take away MAJOR value of 'rares.' It's also more realistic and...dare I say it...common sense? Customization is what makes a game, for gamers, great. Being forced to take a 'certain' path, be it in exploration or equipment, takes away from a game. This would only make this game even more fantastic than it already is. Make things break even more. I want to see "total loss" appear on one of my vehicles when it gets rammed...be it 'rare' or common. I'll just go get something else. Party on, Sam. |
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*Tinker* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 4:32 pm |
Nice post Damon, agreed with all of that, especially the overhaul options | ||||||||
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Nojj Posted Oct 28, 2009, 4:45 pm |
Give camps the ability to repair back to 100% given enough time and resources. Make it slow and cost a lot. This way, people are willing to use the rares, because they know they can get the repairs albeit very slow. | ||||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 5:05 pm |
for the love of god damon you are thick... utterly reliable to post drivel in every thread and to never use one word where 700 will do! have you seen the maps? caustic winds chiseled the devils fiingers.. once upon a town is just ruins... the bulidings are gone.. volcanic activity is everywhere.. if you leave cars in the rain they take chassis damage... It appears none of the towns from the pre apocalypse survived. and you think all the cars people left lying around will be in perfect condition? |
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Fealty Lost Posted Oct 28, 2009, 5:12 pm |
...here come the oldsters!
Short enough for ya biotch? |
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 5:15 pm |
lol.. two weeks ago i was some johnny come lately newbie with a chip on his shoulder and now I am part of the old guard...
you cant actually read can you? |
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*sam* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 5:19 pm |
goat - although I agree that Damon had inaccuracies, the core of his argument was perfectly valid. Vehicles are tools that you use and that break. I accept that some people like to focus on collecting rares; fair enough - but it's certainly not the only valid approach to take. | ||||||||
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The Paranoid Tourist Posted Oct 28, 2009, 5:24 pm |
Ok. For many, this game is about collecting: about finding the rare and powerful and taking it for your own, whether that be to look at or hold in your garage and polish with a diaper.
Player A spends 6 months playing this game. Scouting with a few Apaches, he is lucky enough to come upon a squadcar. He uses said squadcar for a few weeks, takes fire with it, returns fire with it, never takes a breach and hauls home a few hundred landrunners. Should Player A be penalized for playing with his rare toy? Will he get the message, "Your squadcar has taken X impacts and is barely holding together. You can retire it now or risk it dissolving into metal flake on your next scout"? Do you then expect Player A to say, "Wow. It sure was fun to play with that squadcar, but I'll go back to my Apaches, now. Can't get tired of them!" Or do you think he'll say something more along the lines of, "Damn. There went my squadcar. I'm really not interested in going to back to my days of scouting in Apaches and I don't feel like going another six months to hope to find another squadcar. Methinks I'll play Madden." ? If you try to compromise with allowing Player A to repair his squadcar using time and resources/money, what is the benefit in that? Now he just has to wait a day or two before he can use it again when he'd prefer to be able to scout with it 3 times a day. What is this helping? You could charge him to repair the thing without taking the time, but then it just seems like a tax on playing. Again, where's the benefit? |
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FireFly Posted Oct 28, 2009, 6:16 pm |
By the, he is probably playing around with firetrucks, ospreys and buzzers if he is that damn good
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 6:17 pm |
hey i dont have any great opinion any more about how the game should go... I just object to people posting bombastic things that are utterly out of keeping with the darkwind history you published... i take my role play seriously!
One other comment though.. Longo made a comment about Sam talking to Zoth who is no longer a subscriber rather than to him. Lets be clear about this... the last people Sam should be talking to are those of us who have stuck with the game... we are a tiny minority. If I were sam I would be on the phone to Pie and Hula and Zoth and lots of othere (heaven forfend even Darth ). If you stayed you are (broadly) happy with the status quo... clearly the status quo aint cutting it for most subscribers.
the collectors are a very small minority.. but they are the ones who stay because the game as is suits them perfectly. |
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The Paranoid Tourist Posted Oct 28, 2009, 6:27 pm |
Perhaps you need to talk to those other people and ask them if they left Darkwind because of the way the game is or because they simply felt it was time to move on.
It seems, goat, that you would prefer to lose the people who stick with this game and attract new and/or different players who may or may not play for very long. Seems a gamble... smart or not. |
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 6:55 pm |
nope.. i would like a game that keeps MORE people... if some people dont like it then they are free to move on.. but at the moment it does not keep enough.. and i have spoken to two of those people.
Its up to sam to speak to people about this not me.. If he asks me i will say that I think he would be best off just implementing the changes he wants and seeing how it goes... he has another job so its not going to bankrupt the guy if he loses a bit of cash from a few vets and I think.. in the long term.. that gritty, tough gameplay will be the thing that sets the game apart from othergames. its what i would do but then luckily for you I am not in charge
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The Paranoid Tourist Posted Oct 28, 2009, 9:38 pm |
Basically, that has my vote. Of course, sam doesn't get to play the game much so a little guidance might be ideal. But I'd rather he ask for it than get bombarded with it. |
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Lord Foul Posted Oct 28, 2009, 10:17 pm |
I would suggest high famed gangs spawn a higher percentage of chassis that are 100% and also have it that the further south you go the better chance of find 100% chassis in the wild. Chassis down south are worth very little, having more spawn at 100% could revive the market down there.
NPC gangs attached to SS should almost always be using partially damaged chassis to encourage players to go south and scout in the harder areas to get that 100% SUV or muscle car. |
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 28, 2009, 11:14 pm |
i dont understand what this has to do with the point in question |
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Ivan Kerensky Posted Oct 29, 2009, 8:03 am |
Ok, so once more we are back to the endgame problem in a MMORPG.
Afterall, isn't it what rare cars are ? end-game content for successfull gang. The things to collect and hoard as a show of valor and dedication to the game. (of course the tiny badges are nicer but thoses are just unnatainable for some peoples regardless of time or dedication ). I dont envy you Sam. The game is, like every game, at a cross-road. There is your vision of what the game should be, the real state the game develop over time, the way the player play it, the way they want it to be, the way realisticly it should behave, the way it need to behave to be balanced, to be fun, to work... As a matter a fact, it is not a crossroad, it is a freaking terminal... Is the no more free first repair a solution ? to what problem ? are thoses really a problem ? to you ? to the players ? Are we so deeply set into our habits that to really change and adjust the game there is the need to go over to a Dark-Wind 2 ? There is so much things you can just adjust before re-writing the whole thing. Dont forget that Dark-wind is a game... that entitle it to be fun. Living in a post-apocalyptic is a hell, living in the real world is a chore. The more you add limits and restriction to the game, the more realistic it become, the less like a game, the more like a work. I dont think I will ever have a camp... that just sound like too much work. Clicking to fix my car is fine, I generate money when playing so it is not a big deal. Having to fully replace a car sometimes ? why not, they aren't eternal anyway and I will losses them one way or another because I dont make safe scout. To sum up : The real problem is the end-game content and contest for long time player. Need for money sink and hoard management are symptoms of the infinite game length of a MMORPG. Danger is making alteration that will make the game too much like a chore for newer/beginner player, other danger is suppressing the starting part by concentrating too much on endgame (Powerleveling in a way to access). |
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*Burden* Posted Oct 29, 2009, 8:37 am |
I don't get it though. Why should we spend so much money and try so hard to get a 100% chassis, just for it to go down to 80%-90% permenantly the first time that your armor gets breached? | ||||||||
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*Tinker* Posted Oct 29, 2009, 8:48 am |
i'm more concerned of the mid-game or early game or the now for that mater, that will = the end of it.
Ivan you brought up camps, they are great for co-ops, and can make marvels, but something is really missing for the everyday needs IN TOWNS; patching armor, jury-rigging engines, weapons and chassis, and god forbid better upgraded personal car garages that are insulated from the caustic environment (like for 2-3 cars in each towns), and let us dare for our own mini workshops to try and straighten badly damaged chassis (could take a week real time)..... hey maybe this could work, just one thing missing, that would be INDIVIDUAL CPs for rares, such as Buccaneer CP, FT CPs etc... what's missing is more rares to supply the car parts tho Higher famed gangs should have more healthy cars, just because they are richer, but the Northern desserts should maybe have good chassis because, i think, the weather is more dry and healthy there... food growing and water and all in the elms->gw regions, perhaps sars also, because it's very dry? anyways my 3 cents edit: to not make camps obsolete, the repairs in towns should only be limited to a "jury-rigging" level, and take much longer for chassis work, and you would need all the ingredients (scrap metal for armors etc..) and at least a good mechanic, maybe use the top 5 of your town?? |
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*Tinker* Posted Oct 29, 2009, 8:49 am |
good point! |
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Fealty Lost Posted Oct 29, 2009, 4:43 pm |
Burden...I've had vehicles repeatedly shot up that have dropped to under 95% but still get the job done. What some of are suggesting, is that since there should be quite a few 'hulks' laying around...buried or otherwise (from which car parts can be salvaged), that we should be able to have facilities available to fix up our own vehicles, exclusive of anyone else's (keeping camps as the 'fix-all' alternative for groups and/or for more extensive/rare work).
Like other equipment, you would be able to purchase (and trade/sell) this equipment; giving camps another revenue stream, as only their advanced facilities could turn out, say, frame-straightening devices or armor making equipment. I'm definetely not saying that there are tons of 100% vehicles laying around...never have, never will...although some assume this is what I mean. Those who couldn't/can't afford this (mostly newer players) can of course ascribe to one day owning their own shops, but until then have the public garages and camps to use for 'everyday' repairs. ...something tied to mechs', of course. The higher a Mech', the better efficiency from the equipment, so, say, a 50 or less Mech' could only repair 1% of chassis integrity, while a 200 or better could pretty much return one to 100% barring 'catastrophic' (explosions, rams from Lorries, etc). This would give people a reason to want to develop Mechs, past dropping one or two off at a camp and never seeing them again. Not all breaching produces damage to a chassis. I don't think that's what Sam's advocating here...rather he's saying that like everything else in this game (gangers included), eventually vehicles wear out from the abuse given them by scouting/events and the unfriendly weather that dominates the planet, especially in the Southern regions. I don't think Fame should have anything to do with the condition of a vehicle, it gives a bonus to equipment and recruiting already. Cash should be the medium for determining what you can afford. Being able to fix up vehicles over time could open up a whole new market for 'salvaged' and/or damaged vehicles. A new player might not be able to afford a new Apache...but he could get that 85% chassis and eventually bring it up to operational status. Maybe even a chance to 'discover' a hulk buried in the sand after a scout? It might be dead chassis-wise...but the rusting hulk could have protected salvagable equipment inside? Kudos to Sam for his committment to making the game better...and to those who share their 'wish lists' in these forums...it's the only way to keep a game alive! |
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4saken Posted Nov 6, 2009, 3:50 am |
Well I am a bit late finding out about this change and thread, but here's my 2 cents.
My only real concern with a degraded chassis is the fact that it also somehow magically degrades the armor you put on it. I think this is a bit much. If anything I think maybe it should be at less than a 1 for 1 ratio, for instance, maybe 3 to 1 so 10% wear only translates to 3% armor effectiveness loss. The armor added is, after all, new. With weapons my concern is that they will jam. Most worn weapons should lose accuracy, not jam. (Though dropped weapons would jam since they have no accuracy to modify.) Badly worn weapons (under 75%) might also jam in addition to accuracy loss. I myself would happily use chassis and weapons when worn under these circumstances and not sweat it. Even badly worn. I have used a 70% heavy smokescreen before in combat. Also I myself don't mind gritty play. This is a post-apoc game after all. However there is the fun factor to consider as this is a game and is supposed to be fun. It is also more fun and more financially viable when it has more players. Those both are thing to consider. |
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Karz Master Posted Nov 6, 2009, 9:16 am |
This part sums up my feelings too. I understand perma damaged chassis is a necessary evil - maybe some sort of compromise can be made. It's hard to put it in words, but in my humblest opinion, it's not so much the transition of adapting to perma damage, but rather the effect of perma damage as compared to, say, the lost value of losing a ganger. The bar for the former is too high compared to the latter imo. Ook let me try that again - as an example, most gangers never permanently fall below 85%. You only worry whether they die or not. On the other hand, there is a very demoralizing aspect to see your vehicles - ones that have been with you for many weeks/months - to be so badly damaged, that you cant bear to use them anymore. Its value depreciation vs risk is difficult to empathize with as compared to gangers. |
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Dundar Posted Nov 6, 2009, 9:21 am |
For me this is all just turning too much into a grind. I don't like it. Just because some of you think it is so more "realistic" it is okay but for some just makes the game less fun and more work, and obviously games should never be about work.
I play off and on and maybe play more than some but I am lucky to get a shot at 1 apache a week, and now odds are it will be 97% or worse when I risk my gangers, my current cars, and my money. To me it just less rewarding. If some people want to play this game 10 hours a day and collect tons of money and cool cars that are in good condition, then so what? Good for them. They are getting their moneys worth. For me, and other like me, we play to kill a few hours and have fun. Now my few and rare rewards while scouting will be less. I just feel like I am working against this game and any success I have is being punished. Changes to the game should be about making it more fun and replayable. I am sick and tired of changes that get made to make the game more "realistic". If realistic makes the game more fun, fine, but if it is suppose to be about the "terrible hardships of living in a post apoctoliptic world" then I guessing that isn't going to be much fun. Also, making it so that chassi effect armor effectiveness is just silly. A 1 inch plate of steel stops a bullet the same if it is mounted on a tank or a wheel barrel. Chassi damage should affect handling, steerring, suspension, etc... but not armor. That is just daft. if you are saying the chassi can't support the armor then just subtract the amount of armor from the total you can mount as the chassi goes down, but I for one will not take out a 95% chassi when I only have 18 armor on a side in my musle car. To me a lot of these changes are just ruining the game for me. One more thing that just occurred to me... I care FAR MORE about my gangers than I do about my cars, and that being so means I want my guys going out with the best equipment that can protect them and kill the enemy fast. That being said even a few percentage points less then maximum effectiveness in armor, weapons, anything means I will rather scrap the car and find a new one than risk my gangers, and it really doesn't add more fun to the game for me. Fun is coming home alive and maybe with some loot, it isn't constantly grinding to find 100% cars so my gangers have the best I can outfit them with. |
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BigStick Posted Nov 6, 2009, 9:55 am |
I disagree, but read below first
For gameplay reasons, I prefer having to the 1st time repair to 100%. "Me hunt pirates or traders", this is my reward. It also caters for the ones that collect. They get something shiny and new, at least once! I don't mind perma damage, AFTER the above, because I stuffed up and get my armour breached. It's a good "lesson learnt", and realistic enough and also makes gameplay sense. But, by how much perma damage???? |
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Marrkos Posted Nov 6, 2009, 3:12 pm |
A lot of stuff in this post, but this is probably the heart of the issue. IMO, the game changes aren't making it more work, rather you are, by immediately discarding stuff that isn't 100%. As you state, this attitude means you are constantly 'grinding' to find 100% stuff, even though (as stated in the first post) you'd be hard-pressed to notice a difference between a 100% chassis and a 97% chassis (and maybe even a 94%). |
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ZomBPir8Ninja Posted Nov 6, 2009, 4:27 pm |
This. The first time you are breached and suffer ganger injury to a demo'd marauder, you quickly figure out that you have to pound the crap out of enemies until they stop moving. That means you are seriously damaging the vehicle. Give us the first repair to 100%. If we then get it breached through our own play, then I'm fine with perma damage. |
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4saken Posted Nov 6, 2009, 5:16 pm |
The main purpose of degradation isn't necessarily realism, it's to make rare items not last forever. When items wear, the rare ones can spawn more often so more people can have them. It also means that since many people sell less than 100% items things like used rare equipment become affordable to more players as well. Permadamage will one day mean that you can finally see things like a used buzzer on the market that you can actually afford. It also means one day we might get customizations. A car with a mod that allows it to carry a bigger engine, 10 more bulk, etc, would unbalance the game now. But it it would eventually wear out then this is not that big of a deal. You might decide to sell your 90% extra bulk apache and buy a new 100% stock apache. As I said I think the big issue right now with chassis damage is its effect on armor. It's too strong and maybe the cause of much of this "I'm gonna lose my ganger if I am not in a 100% vehicle" stress. As to the point at hand, no first 100%, I think it is a bad idea. Consider: By the old system you can shoot up most things in the wild and repair them to 100%, putting an item you get "the hard way" on equal footing with something you buy with hero points or at a camp. With the new system you can only do that by looting pristine chassis, which requires murder-grinding. If you murder-grind there is no change. If you fight normally you are penalized, and such vehicles looted the normal way are less valuable than new bought items. This might make more sense realistically but I think fighting for your prize is a much more worthy endeavor than buying one. In D&D a sword I found in a treasure chest or bought meant much less to me than one I got by prying it from the cold, dead hands of my vanquished enemy after he used it on me. IMO the "no first 100%" change at best adds nothing, at worst adds grind and lessens the value of items won through combat. So Dundar while I disagree with you about item degradation overall, I do agree with you in this particular instance. Side idea: I think item degradation should be variable and dependent on the toughness of the items. E.g. 1-3% for most items. Things like SUVs and HMGs would have a curve to be closer to 0 or 1% permadamage, while things like racecars and lasers would be more likely to lose 3% or more. Also when I day variable I mean each time, with a + or - of say 1% either way, randomized each time from the base value (based on item toughness and total repair % needed). |
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Karz Master Posted Nov 6, 2009, 8:13 pm |
I too think the idea is right, I just think the devaluation versus fun factor assessment has to be further evened out. At the moment, real and nominal devaluation are rather high. I want to graciously retire Selina one day in my garage, but I'd prefer to do it 2 years down the road, not 2 months
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Mad Mike Posted Nov 7, 2009, 1:43 am |
I had an event with 10 landrunners and 9 apaches provided by the pirates and Id like to report they seems to demo faster and before there was any major chassis damage | ||||||||
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*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Nov 7, 2009, 10:55 am |
well there has to be some comprimise. to be able to keep sam happy, and the players happy, so i suggest this. Let the built up towns (such as SS etc) have a repair up to 100% the first time, as they will seemingly have better mechanics, more parts etc. But with squatter towns such as shanty have no first repair, as they will seemingly have worse mechanics, less parts etc? | ||||||||
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Nov 7, 2009, 10:58 am |
why do you think everyone isnt happy as it stands though ? | ||||||||
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*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Nov 7, 2009, 11:03 am |
because people have been criticizing in the forum?
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Nov 7, 2009, 11:05 am |
only a few, i certainly have no problem with the system as it stands it isnt a new feature or concept | ||||||||
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*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Nov 7, 2009, 11:18 am |
yeah, i wasnt criticizing it, i was just putting forward a suggestion, im fine with the system as it is aswell. | ||||||||
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*Bastille* Posted Nov 7, 2009, 2:45 pm |
I hear a lot of stuff here about too much grind, but I think there needs to be a little grind, other wise its taking candy from a baby, and if you take candy from a baby, expect it to have slobber all over it. Or to put it another way, the hard times make the easy times more fun. We don't want the badies just to park their cars and roll down the window and poke their heads out. Well ok, maybe that would be cool too sometimes if we see a rare car (where I will usually shoot the motor to bits because I lost patience and got trigger happy), but you need to be good enough to get em I guess. Probably why my shed is full of junkers while other ppl get buzzers there first week. I have also used damaged chassis at times.. sometime I didn't even notice till I got home,.. oops, forgot to repair, no wonder It was a bit dodgy to drive.
Anyways, I like a bit of grind factor (every now and then), makes the game hard, and what game is the way you want it all the time? I remember some real sucky bits in turok that I did over and over again, the same exact thing,.. over and over again, the next stage or the following one, that technique came in real handy... the one I had to do over and over again. I think, If you think about it, just about every game has this sort of idea... other wise they would be too easy and you'd finish em in 5 hours and wonder why you spent your money on resident evil. NWN (money well spent) - you have encountered a gang on the way to your destination and now must kill them, you have not rested, have no scrolls and have all the wrong spells learned. Countless 1st person shooters have a level where you have to use your least favourite gun for a level or two, and have hardly any ammo, its dark, you can't see, and a genestealer could jump out of the wall at any moment. Mechanics being useful in towns. I think this this a grand idea. If not to be able to repair stuff, maybe maintain it so it degrades less quickly, or perhaps just reduce repair costs because your mech could do some of the work with the town mechanics... I can change a motor.. hell I can rebuild one.. might not work too well though because I'm no good at machining my own parts. A good gunner/mechanic might be able to make some special incendiary ammo from ammo lying in lockup (a skill that won't appear in the mechanic list unless they already have 2 lvls in gunnery), or maybe just cross the tips for use in his rifle. Like the engine tuning spec, maybe you can get gun tuning. Theres my two bits... and a bit more
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Djihani Posted Nov 7, 2009, 3:39 pm |
Im too lazy to read the whole 5 pages but i think it would be good idea to be able to repair permadamage by sacrificing another car - ie. you combine parts from two cars to make one almost whole.
that way you could keep your most loved cars at the expense of another like it and even damaged goods would be of some value - just the way it should be in post-apocalyptica! |
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Karz Master Posted Nov 7, 2009, 5:05 pm |
Interesting idea - if I'm analyzing this correctly, permadamage becomes a big money sink, albeit a fixable one. But on the other hand, this compromises the "rough n tough post apocalyptic world" aspect, which I think is part of permadamage's point - so that even vehicles wear down too, just like people. |
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Zoltan Posted Nov 8, 2009, 7:37 pm |
I feel its time I weigh in abit, being one of the old dinosaurs, who hates change. Permadamge I agree should be implemented to a higher degree, because no matter what anyone says pulling a marauder into town, after I pummeled it with a Tank Gun for 3 turns and HGG's for the rest and it being restorable to 100% or even 50% is ridiculous. I don't know how hard it would be to code, but if a vehicle gets less than 60 percent it shouldn't be repairable at all. You could have the option to part it out and keep the parts, or sell for parts, The town vendors shouldn't even buy it to repair, just for parts at a significantly lower value. That would add grit ot the game twofold. One you would have to take your chances with demoed vehicles to maintain resale value, secondly you wouldn't get as much for bringing back junkers to town. And yes I'll still remain a whining old dinosaur. But I too have become somewhat bored with my ability to sell off everything and rally back to 19 million in a little over 6 months.
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*goat starer* Posted Nov 8, 2009, 10:22 pm |
Dinosaur speak sense! | ||||||||
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*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Nov 8, 2009, 11:16 pm |
well if having 19 million is that much of a chore for you, i could always take it off your hands
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*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Nov 8, 2009, 11:22 pm |
although, zoltan, you also need to look at this from a newbs point of view, if they have just started and all they're bringing in is 40% Marauders that cant be repaired, they're most likely going to get bored and leave the game because they cant get sufficient money to start up a fleet of cars... | ||||||||
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*Longo* Posted Nov 8, 2009, 11:23 pm |
Or if its below 60% it can be repaired at camp but at a considerably high MR and mech point cost. Before peeps start complianing, realize, if....lets say you have a buzzer at 50%, you would have to drive that buzzer at 50% chassis to camp, and then maybe after getting there, realize that the MR isnt high enough....would be a bit of a risk and also toss camps a bone. |
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Mad Mike Posted Nov 9, 2009, 1:47 am |
Giving the camps the special power to fix an almost unfixable chassis wiould give camps a new life. I'm all for that. Vehicles driven to a camp for repair would make sense
a pickup that has been blasted by a tank gun for 3 rounds should not even be able to be driven back to town. |
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*sam* Posted Nov 9, 2009, 10:20 am |
I'd like to point out that the loss of armour effectiveness when you have chassis damage is not a new feature. It has always been this way. Having said that, I'd have no issue with changing it... I'll pass this over to the rules council to decide on.
I'll pass this over to the RC too. |
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FireFly Posted Nov 9, 2009, 10:41 am |
With the inclusion of looting 100% chassis, I think ditching the first repair is a very, very fair tradeof | ||||||||
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4saken Posted Nov 9, 2009, 5:18 pm |
Actually if the armor loss is removed or greatly reduced (to where you don't really have to worry about it until you are, say, below 85%) then the free 100% repair is almost a non-issue, IMO.
This is how I feel anyway. I'll be glad to run my equipment into the ground. Not sure how others feel about it as I am not sure how many other people are still watching this thread. Anyway I think with the armor thing removed/reduced I think the stress factor for using a worn chassis would diminish greatly, and we could get more easily used to the factor of worn equipment overall. |
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*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Nov 13, 2009, 10:01 pm |
I've been thinking... and wouldnt one solution be to reduce the amount of damage a chassis takes? This way it would take a few really bad scouts to chip your favourite car down to a 90% chassis, whilst being able to keep the "no more free first repair" rule | ||||||||
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Karz Master Posted Nov 25, 2009, 11:36 am |
My 94% permadamaged Selina went down to 84% on her last scout. I managed to repair her back to 94% again. Does this mean I'm just lucky? Or is it just a one-time "yeah you got lucky first time kid, next time I (the system) will punish you" fluke?
I'm still a bit confused about how this works. |
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*sam* Posted Nov 25, 2009, 12:29 pm |
Did you repair it manually from the vehicle page? That shouldn't have happened.
BTW the 'free first repair' is now back again... |
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Karz Master Posted Nov 25, 2009, 3:34 pm |
Yeah I repaired it from vehicle page. Why isn't that supposed to happen?
Also, HOORAY! for free first repair. |
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Karz Master Posted Nov 26, 2009, 4:39 pm |
Come now Sam, your cryptic words scare me. I don't want to have to bring Selina out for another fight if it means permadamage when her chassis gets breached again | ||||||||
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Mad Mike Posted Nov 27, 2009, 12:27 am |
then dont let the armor get breached lol
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Karz Master Posted Nov 27, 2009, 12:45 am |
I'm afraid I will /ragequit when that happens. goat's 15 seconds of Buzzer death replay may not be able to help even then 
Hopefully Selina is about to get to Renowned status soon |