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Squad Combat Leagues
Serephe
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Like your dreaded variable skill cap system? :cyclops:
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Posted Feb 20, 2010, 10:21 am
Nekojin
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IMO, having the skill boost only be to one skill is plenty good enough as it is. It's already providing a benefit that can't be gotten in any other way, anywhere in the game.
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vet deathrceL1 wv cont

Posted Feb 20, 2010, 10:49 am
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We're more concerned about the attraction of the lower-level divisions to newer gangs, I think. The prizes are pretty low in those.. cash-flow would be very difficult as these could be expensive events to compete in.
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Posted Feb 20, 2010, 10:51 am Last edited Feb 20, 2010, 10:51 am by *sam*
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Some of the RP missions can also increase your skill beyond cap, as Nine reminded me. Though those you can't choose a specific skill... I assume the prize you will be able to choose the gang member/skill.


For the lower brackets -- perhaps the ability to apply a rare skin to one of your vehicles?
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vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0

Posted Feb 20, 2010, 10:51 am Last edited Feb 20, 2010, 10:53 am by *Serephe*
*sam*
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BTW I'm adding a new setting for each team: "Home Town". Like the other settings, this is editable only during the 'pre season'.

Combats will be scheduled for wilderness maps near to the Home Town of the team that's playing "at home" in each combat. The "away" team will need to travel. But they will have plenty of time to plan for this since the entire schedule of combats is created at the end of the 'pre season'.
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Posted Feb 20, 2010, 11:01 am
Fealty Lost
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Seems like a totally unnecessary addition to the game.

It'll attract only the 'usual suspects,' those with disposable cash, vehicles and gangers.

If its intent is to promote PvP...there are already avenues for that in the game: and they aren't being used too much.

I have to totally agree with Ser'..."skill vouchers" are against everything that makes DW what it is. What's next? "Health" vouchers to return a ganger to "Good" or "Excellent" health from death's door? Why not a "Clone" voucher? Makes about as much sense as the skill voucher. What do they do? Hold the guy down and shove the voucher into his head and it miraculously melds with his synapses and VIOLA! ...he's a new man?

With everything that should be in this game...this is something that shouldn't...another League...whoopee.

Where are the threads for Additional Leagues Needed in DW?

In case you don't get the gist...I'm not for this.
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vet wv

Posted Feb 20, 2010, 3:21 pm
*sam*
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Damon_Angel said:
Seems like a totally unnecessary addition to the game.

It'll attract only the 'usual suspects,' those with disposable cash, vehicles and gangers.

If its intent is to promote PvP...there are already avenues for that in the game: and they aren't being used too much.

With everything that should be in this game...this is something that shouldn't...another League...whoopee.

Where are the threads for Additional Leagues Needed in DW?

In case you don't get the gist...I'm not for this.



You're welcome to stay away from the new leagues, DA.
But just in case you are looking for answers to your questions..

1.. A tiered league system with promotion/relegation is a new departure that can create an effective challenge over several seasons rather than just one

2.. Yes, I think it has the potential to promote PvP. And as you say, the avenues currently in place aren't being used. Seems like a reason to try a new one to me, not a reason not to.

3.. You're actually the first person I've seen who doesn't like the idea. This was all seeded a few weeks ago based on a thread started by (I think) Zoltan which generated a lot of interest.

Damon_Angel said:
Where are the threads for Additional Leagues Needed in DW?


Here's Zoltan's one. Actually new leagues get requested quite often, I guess you don't spend as much time on the forums as I do.

Zoltan's PvP League Thread

Damon_Angel said:
I have to totally agree with Ser'..."skill vouchers" are against everything that makes DW what it is. What's next? "Health" vouchers to return a ganger to "Good" or "Excellent" health from death's door? Why not a "Clone" voucher? Makes about as much sense as the skill voucher. What do they do? Hold the guy down and shove the voucher into his head and it miraculously melds with his synapses and VIOLA! ...he's a new man?



Er.. no. They're not actually vouchers, I figured you'd realise that it was just a handy term to use. I guess not. They are actually training time with rare, top-quality trainers. Nothing magical about it.
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Posted Feb 20, 2010, 3:35 pm Last edited Feb 20, 2010, 3:43 pm by *sam*
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Damon I usually agree with you to some extent, but, get your head straight, how is a 30 skill-points much worse than winning a heavy laser?

This is a GAME, not some fictional masterpiece, besides, Also, So what if the "Usual Suspects" get something to do, the chance of you losing on of your higher skill characters in the battle for those 30 skill-points is considerable.

This game seriously lacks any real "endgame" stuff to to outside of slaughtering pirates for rare loot, or running a camp... once you get over a certain hurdle, the game poses no real challenge anymore, and to me, those 30 extra skill-points are worth millions, I finally have something to really fight for, that means a lot, and I'm not the only one.

I'd like to suggest again, this military remnant gang, with superior equipment, in a unique area (Morgan, or even way out in the wastes, far from any town).

Doesn't matter what skill you have, these guys would have an average skill of 200, and army gear, they would kick your ass back to the stone age, you know, an endgame challenge?

When I complaned about in the lobby how everything gets so easy to do, or rather, how there are so few things that actually pose a challenge left, or new things to do, after you spread your wings, someone said...

"Well, of-course if you scout with buzzers and high skilled people its easy, try compacts or muscle"

Why, Why must I force myself to use lesser gear to get a challenge, that is just dumb.



Anyway, back to the point, this is a perfect addition, and a perfect reward, don't listen to the Naysayers...


(Sorry for utterly derailing myself halfway trough, but I still got what I wanted said... well, said)
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vet wv zom gateautumn deathrceL1 elmsautumn pvp1 pvp2 sssc raceL1 e2g combatL1 santa1 pvp3 gwextrav ww circuit32,18,0

Posted Feb 20, 2010, 3:43 pm Last edited Feb 20, 2010, 3:45 pm by FireFly
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*sam* said:
'training vouchers' which allow you to train characters above their official skill-cap.


This surprises me. In a game that almost exclusively relies on near-equivalents of relative real-world realism, "magic" (not a literal expression) items seems ill-fitting and hard to justify, canon-wise. And while it's certainly easy to justify the training vouchers in a quick, dirty and simple manner ("in-game, they represent elite training from the best teachers", disregarding the fact that characters who have reached their skill cap often being among the best in their field), the Darkwind standard of relative realism has always been more immersive, and its explanations more convincing.

So I'm curious if the training vouchers have a solid in-game basis, or if they are, so far, only a mechanical device intended to make the skill caps more flexible. It might certainly be needed, and be a good thing, but I'd still like for all such solutions to fit neatly into the gaming world. (Which they already might, in which case I only need an explanation of why and how ;) )

EDIT: Heh, I had actually missed Damon's concern regarding the vouchers, and Sam's reply, when I wrote my post. Which makes my example above a tad amusing  ;) But apart from the fact that skill-capped characters are sometimes among the best in their field, giving away free training as a competition prize seems peculiar to me. Or, rather, it seems like a hasty and none too solid in-canon explanation for an addition that is based purely in game mechanics.

EDIT2: Brilliant new league, and from a risk-vs-reward point of view (one that disregards canon), great prizes! Don't mistake my questioning for general discontent with this patch ;)
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vet marshal wv

Posted Feb 20, 2010, 4:33 pm Last edited Feb 20, 2010, 4:41 pm by *Ayjona*
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*Ayjona* said:
*sam* said:
'training vouchers' which allow you to train characters above their official skill-cap.


This surprises me. In a game that almost exclusively relies on near-equivalents of relative real-world realism, "magic" (not a literal expression) items seems ill-fitting and hard to justify, canon-wise. And while it's certainly easy to justify the training vouchers in a quick, dirty and simple manner ("in-game, they represent elite training from the best teachers", disregarding the fact that characters who have reached their skill cap often being among the best in their field), the Darkwind standard of relative realism has always been more immersive, and its explanations more convincing.

So I'm curious if the training vouchers have a solid in-game basis, or if they are, so far, only a mechanical device intended to make the skill caps more flexible. It might certainly be needed, and be a good thing, but I'd still like for all such solutions to fit neatly into the gaming world. (Which they already might, in which case I only need an explanation of why and how ;) )

EDIT: Heh, I had actually missed Damon's concern regarding the vouchers, and Sam's reply, when I wrote my post. Which makes my example above a tad amusing  ;) But apart from the fact that skill-capped characters are sometimes among the best in their field, giving away free training as a competition prize seems peculiar to me. Or, rather, it seems like a hasty and none too solid in-canon explanation for an addition that is based purely in game mechanics.

EDIT2: Brilliant new league, and from a risk-vs-reward point of view (one that disregards canon), great prizes! Don't mistake my questioning for general discontent with this patch ;)


This type of "training voucher" has already been in the game for over a year, just not as prizes from town events. If you complete RP missions, in at least 2 of them you get this.
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Posted Feb 20, 2010, 4:46 pm
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Thanks for the uninvite, Sam, I'll be sure to exercise it.

Your 'tiered' league is nothing but a DR without a track...and a new reward. Pffffffffft. A Yoda-spa. What happens when the players become bored with that? MORE skill cap-beaters per event? Slippery slope and all that....

Institute individual vehicle surrenders in PvP that render them bullet-proof and remove them from combat. Shorten escape distances to 150 meters for PvP. Institute loot screens based on actual vehicles/equipment faced that artificially generate loot for the winner without taking from the loser. That's how to make PvP popular.

For actual warring, make a "Not Safe" option that must be checked by both players, which would remove safeties and make the combat live and deadly.

Griefing would be impossible, since you could surrender and make your vehicles invulnerable to fire and a turn cap of at least 25 turns of actual firing weapons before a loot screen is generated and a surrender cap of 10 turns, so a newbie could surrender on Turn 1 against someone trying to hunt newbies that would NOT generate loot...and noone is considered a winner/loser. Players who surrender in the first turn must wait only 5 minutes to redeploy their squad, while the attacker must wait 1 hour before being able to hunt again.

FF: Endgame? Then DW needs what many veteran players have already suggested: a ride on the mythical boats from the mythical port far south that take them to new, deadlier lands...where they must start anew (or with very small contingent of vehicles, since they must be transported on a ship). This would remove older veteran gangs from Evan, giving newer gangs the chance at camps, influencing the economy and doing all those things that the older players are bored with.

Adding uber-gangs to Evan for older players will just give them a bunch of new stuff to overcharge everyone for and isn't that what you're/they're doing now and complaining about it being boring?

Then there are interactive camps, which many have discussed on threads FAR longer and more prolific than the league thread...but time constraints are upon us.

.02 ...but worth so, so much more.
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vet wv

Posted Feb 20, 2010, 4:53 pm
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Quote:
Institute loot screens based on actual vehicles/equipment faced that artificially generate loot for the winner without taking from the loser.


I don't think I have ever seen a suggestion with "please exploit me" written across it in larger letters.
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Posted Feb 20, 2010, 4:56 pm
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[quote=Longo]This type of "training voucher" has already been in the game for over a year, just not as prizes from town events. If you complete RP missions, in at least 2 of them you get this.[/quote]

I had no idea. But the fact that they are already available does not justify their existence, or explain it ;)
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vet marshal wv

Posted Feb 20, 2010, 4:58 pm Last edited Feb 20, 2010, 4:58 pm by *Ayjona*
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*Ayjona* said:
I had no idea. But the fact that they are already available does not justify their existence, or explain it ;)


Does it really need explaining? Skill-caps are an artificial construct, why are they suddenly being seen as an example of realism that shouldn't be contravened?

Skill-caps are a representation of how good a character can personally get through field-training and normal training centre work. There are gurus who can train them higher than that. Seems simple to me.
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marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay20130,1,0

Posted Feb 20, 2010, 5:01 pm Last edited Feb 20, 2010, 5:02 pm by *sam*
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Oh please damon, it would take ages for most newer gangs to get started if there were no vets around to supply and help them...

And about the UBER gang with UBER stuff, we already had a thread about that, and good ideas were made, even if we have that armored APC, it cant be repaired or maintained, it would naturally degrade, also, it would be darned near impossible to capture one intact to begin with, since that uber gang is most likely to blow you to hell first...
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Posted Feb 20, 2010, 5:02 pm Last edited Feb 20, 2010, 5:03 pm by FireFly
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