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end of PVP leagues, revisiting the prizes

simonmaxhill Drive Backwards BFFs Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,503 Joined: Mar 10, 2008 I think revisiting the PVP leagues and formatting them differently is important. I'm strongly of the opinion that putting AI into the leagues is a terrible solution. Right now the third place winner of the Div I league is getting, for fighting 2 PVP events, the same training bonus of the Div IV players that each fought three or four events and beat out some other players. Instead of the AI solution, let's find a better one that makes players actually work for their bonuses. How about: League will not run without at least five players. Bonuses for a five player league are half of the current baseline league awards. Each additional player increases the prizes by a percentage that would make a 10 player league (or more) equal to the current prize. Make the bottom two players win absolutely nothing, no matter the number of players in the league. This will prevent players from simply putting in their entry fee, paying bounties or forfeiting every PVP match and gaining a modest (but still powerful) training and production bonus. I'm absolutely against any ideas that the rewards should be retroactive (it was an experiment, let's live with the results) but I think it's imperative that next time around nobody gets a free ride. ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 17, 2010, 10:15 pm

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Hi Simon - Good to hear an opinion on the Pvp League. The League is being discussed in the RC right now, so all opinions will help. Remember with prizes -" Note that prizes are reduced by 5 percent for each player-owned team less than 10 that compete in the division.. for example, 8 player-owned teams would mean 90 percent prizes." So D1 teams (2 of them) are only getting 60% of whats listed. There is alot of issues with the league...tough to schedule, not enough teams... but some good things to ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Apr 18, 2010, 3:35 pm

simonmaxhill Drive Backwards BFFs Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,503 Joined: Mar 10, 2008 No, I get that the D1 teams are getting only 60% of what's listed.  But 60% of third place in D1 for losing two PVP matching and winning zero gives more benefit than taking third place in the D4 league after beating out 5 other players in PVP. If I'd entered the D1 league and simply paid the bounty on all my matches, then did 6 PvE matches with exactly even CR (something that anyone in the game should be able to manage) I'd gain more than slogging through the D4 experience, losing cars and characters, etc. If we're going to structure the prizes for the PVP league this way, we might as well just implement a "throw money at the training center, get training bonus" feature for the game and kill the D1 league altogether. That's my point about the prizes.  Since we haven't adequately populated five divisions, let's shrink them down to 2-3 divisions and expand once those divisions are always full. Let's scale the prizes properly so that there's zero incentive for joining an empty division and more incentive for joining a full division. ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 18, 2010, 9:17 pm Last edited Apr 18, 2010, 9:18 pm by simonmaxhill

*Ninesticks* The Wombles Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 3,371 Joined: Apr 11, 2008 Definitely a good point you have Simon, not sure reduction in leagues is the only answer that would help though. Perhaps a review of the scaled reductions and increasing them would go some way towards addressing this. A lot depends on balancing how much take up there is whilst still offering reasonable steps between the leagues. If we reduce the leagues which ones go, how big will the steps be between leagues, will it be too much of a step up/down for that team to remain viable and so on. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp4 community pvp20,1,0 Posted Apr 18, 2010, 9:38 pm

FireFly Anarcho-Pumpkin Privateers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 5,468 Joined: Mar 3, 2008 Simon, The reason why we did this, from as far as I can remember, is that everyone dosent want to play in the lower, more noob (No Ill intent) friendly leagues, but there aren't enough people willing to put the gangers on the line for the higher divs, so we should just ignore the people who want to play up there? What you are saying is a "What if" anyway, Up in league one, the battle between longo and us was a pretty damned good one, and risky, he brought good gangers and 2 buzzers to the table, we brought good gangers and 3bpu's, now, if you take away even more of the rewards, since its already cut to 60%, wont that lose some incentive for more people to join the higher tiers, not everyone fights in the PvP league for the pure pleasure of PvP, hell, I had to talk both of my teammates into this. By the way, have you yet found a case of someone actually doing this, bountying their way out of fight? Not saying your wrong thou, please don't get me wrong. ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn deathrceL1 elmsautumn pvp1 pvp2 sssc raceL1 e2g combatL1 santa1 pvp3 gwextrav ww circuit32,18,0 Posted Apr 18, 2010, 9:44 pm Last edited Apr 18, 2010, 9:46 pm by FireFly

*Rezeak* The Dark Knights Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Marshals + Storytellers Posts: 2,377 Joined: Aug 8, 2009 I'm pretty sure the only reason for the AI was because sam was in a rush to get the PvP league running for this evan year, I don't think it's intended to be a permanent solution ......................... vet wv deathrceL1 marshal pvp2 zom pvp3 Posted Apr 18, 2010, 9:52 pm

*Ninesticks* The Wombles Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 3,371 Joined: Apr 11, 2008 If a player sets a squad but fails to turn up FF they pay a bounty. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp4 community pvp20,1,0 Posted Apr 18, 2010, 9:53 pm

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,587 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 Simon - some of this is a moot point... After year one, the ONLY way to enter the league is in Div 5. ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted Apr 18, 2010, 9:55 pm

simonmaxhill Drive Backwards BFFs Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,503 Joined: Mar 10, 2008 Jimmy- Don't quite know what you mean. Maybe I don't understand how leagues work? FF- We definitely need to balance the risk/reward in Div I in a way. I think if the rewards scaled up much faster than in the other divs, it'd make sense. So there'd be no reward for winning 3rd in a 3 person Div I PVP league and only a modest reward for taking 1st. But in a 4 person PVP league it'd be double that, and in a 5 person PVP league it'd be double that. If we somehow got a 10 person Div I PVP league up and running, whoever took first place would win some kind of spectacular, terrifying bonus. It'd be the kind of bonus that would look very game-unbalancing on paper, except when you factored in the fact that it's pretty unlikely that someone would win a 10 player Div I league without losing one or two 150+ skill gangers. Nine/Rez- I totally get that the AI system was rushed through. That's why this post came at the end of the PVP league and not at the beginning (I've known all along that putting AI would result in this - but understood the importance of getting the leagues off the ground, however imperfectly.) ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 18, 2010, 10:11 pm

*Rezeak* The Dark Knights Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Marshals + Storytellers Posts: 2,377 Joined: Aug 8, 2009 What Jimmy's saying is that everyone will have to start in division 5 next year, and work their way up. Not sure if thhis is happening, but I definately remember hearing it being said somewhere at the begining of he PvP leagues. ......................... vet wv deathrceL1 marshal pvp2 zom pvp3 Posted Apr 18, 2010, 10:15 pm

simonmaxhill Drive Backwards BFFs Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,503 Joined: Mar 10, 2008 wow, really? I'm not even sure I have characters that qualify for Div 5. Have to shift a lot of people around and around. So there'll be only one PVP league division, that being Div 5? Or does it mean that you have to start out in Div 5 and work your way up by winning? ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 18, 2010, 10:32 pm Last edited Apr 18, 2010, 10:34 pm by simonmaxhill

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,587 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 If you weren't in it last year and you're just starting out, you'll have to start in Div 5. The FIRST YEAR ONLY you could buy into the upper divisions. ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted Apr 18, 2010, 11:14 pm

simonmaxhill Drive Backwards BFFs Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,503 Joined: Mar 10, 2008 Is the notion that in the long run, people will be shifted upwards in division until winners of upper division have only the option of being in the division above? In the long term, that might work very well. For the short term, it's going to give a big damn free ride to the upper div people. ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 18, 2010, 11:53 pm

*Ninesticks* The Wombles Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 3,371 Joined: Apr 11, 2008 Well there will be some promotions and relegations before the start of the next season based on this season's results. And yep, players will have to enter via Division 5 unless there is a change to that. Your point about changes to the scaling of prizes is certainly valid and I am sure will figure in the end of league discussion. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp4 community pvp20,1,0 Posted Apr 19, 2010, 12:24 am

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 I made the Pvp League poll in this thread to hopefully gage how many people we will have for next year. ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Apr 19, 2010, 12:45 am

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,587 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 simonmaxhill said: In the long term, that might work very well.  For the short term, it's going to give a big damn free ride to the upper div people. And it cost them a TREMENDOUS amount of money to join the upper divisions this time. Not that money really means much in the long run, but there was a greater buy in cost. ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted Apr 19, 2010, 12:51 am

simonmaxhill Drive Backwards BFFs Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,503 Joined: Mar 10, 2008 Jimmy- I think we have very different ideas about what "tremendous" means. If the buy in had been 10 million, I'd still have this complaint. But from what I remember, it was a mil to buy in, and that's pretty paltry, especially if it means that they get these bonuses not only for a single league season, but until they get weeded out of the Div I (or II or III) league. To look at the rewards/buy in from another angle, imagine reading this in the "suggestions" box: "I think for 10 million a player should get a lifetime training form bonus of 4 and a 4% production bonus on their camp." I think there are a large number of players who'd take that offer. And since the PVP leagues weren't intended to function that way, it seems like an important part of the system to revamp. ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 19, 2010, 2:23 am Last edited Apr 19, 2010, 2:27 am by simonmaxhill

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 To me, an obvious way to fix this issue would be to revise the "5% reduction per player team less than 10" and change it to maybe 10%. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Apr 19, 2010, 8:42 am

Shark Feeding Frenzy Autodueller Renegade Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: May 5, 2007 When are the signups I want in yo ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 19, 2010, 9:10 am

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 *sam* said: To me, an obvious way to fix this issue would be to revise the "5% reduction per player team less than 10" and change it to maybe 10%. A smaller pot for fewer combatants sounds reasonable, 10% sounds just about right imo. ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted Apr 19, 2010, 9:53 am

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