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Reds, what are they good for?

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 Bandulu said: JS said: Bandulu said: Why don't you show us on the doll where the commies touched you? I don't need to do that, 100 million corpses can though. Dude we got it, you got a big chip on your shoulder and you hate communism, okay now why don't you stop derailing this thread? Go start a thread on the general discussion forum and tell us how much communism was evil. It is pretty clear you are wholly ignorant on the subject from your previous posts in this thread downplaying the importance of the Soviet Union contribution to the defeat of nazi Germany. But then again you're american I suppose, pretty hard to be unbiased on the matter when you have been told since childhood how capitalism = good and communism = evil. I am sure however that it must be really comfortable to have such a simplistic view of the world lmao. FYI, the Soviet Union never had a problem producing massive amounts of goods, I am not talking about consumer goods here but heavy industry and it sure wasn't particuarly efficient, but heavy industry was one of their strong point. wiki quote : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Soviet_Union From 1928 to 1991 the entire course of the economy was guided by a series of Five-Year Plans. Within 40 years, the nation evolved from a mainly agrarian society and became one of the world's three top manufacturers of a large number of capital goods, heavy industrial products and weaponry. Industry was long concentrated after 1928 on the production of capital goods through metallurgy, machine manufacture, and chemical industry. In Soviet terminology, the capital goods were known as group A goods, or means of production. This emphasis was based on the perceived necessity for a very fast industrialization and modernization of the Soviet Union Also this is probably going to be shocking for you, but during the early days of the revolution, after 1917, factories ran by soviets had a much higher productivity than the rest because at the time, the workers believed in the ideal of communism and were particularly motivated. Alpha centaury which is an excellent game also models the communist faction this way, granting them a production bonus. You also got a chance of cities switching to your side when there is unrest. Apologists always do two things. 1.  You ignore the human cost of all that "collectivization". 2.  You assume that it was the best course of action for Russia, and there was no other way do it. I will address the particular conceit about how Americans are "simplistic" in their views first.  It is simplistic and arrogant to think such.  I do not think that at all about the rest of the world.  In fact, I know it is very complicated.  So are we, because we are you, people whe left every country in the world to come here.  Do not be so quick to judge from your lofty perch friend, becasue we flew down here from it.  In fact, it is the VERY complication of humanity and civilization which thwarts socialist ideology every time.  It does not work at any level because humans and their civilization is so complicated.  Civilization is impossible to control centrally without grave injustice built in.  Strangely, the very people who carp about things being oh so nuanced and complicated that the rest of us cannot understand it are somehow knowlegeable on how to contrally control a whole civilizations means of production, medical care, financial systems etc.  This is a dark humor, and would be funny but for the cost. Do Americans think their system is better?  Certainly, doesn't everbody believe that about theirs?  Do I think it's perfect?  Of course not.  Do I think it's preferrable to statism in its many forms?  Absolutely, and without reservation.  When one looks at the history of countrys and draws conclusions, it is useful and instructive after considering the accomplishments to consider the costs, and then ask the question.  That was one of the ways to do it, but was it really the best way?  Hence my point about the corpses.  20th century collectivism stands on the corpses of 100 milion people, and this is one of the moderate estimates. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 10:32 am

Groove Champion The Groove Champions Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 4,813 Joined: Sep 16, 2008 There is no answer to this debate. Whether it is achieved through communist, socialist, capitalist, religious or industrial means, total control of a country's population is always handed to the few. I don't think this is tragic because it is a pattern we embrace fully. When provided with a matrix to evolve in, most people don't wonder at the possibilities beyond and simply accept the existence they are "allowed" to live out. Whether it be one of potato-eating, hammer-swinging, rifle-threatened peasantry or one of gray, odorless, tasteless office life, the reaction natural to most subjects is the same: unquestioning daily routine. By no means is this a call to action in order to break an age-old human habit, but rather it is a call to please spare the shattered ribs of a dead horse further punishment. ......................... vet combatL1 wv cont0,5,0 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 3:05 pm Last edited Nov 26, 2010, 3:08 pm by Groove Champion

*Wolfsbane* Arbiters Darkwind Guru Badlands Truckstop Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,038 Joined: Oct 9, 2009 Not going to stick my oar in here, but I couldn't resist linking this video, because it's awesome. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp2 cont Posted Nov 26, 2010, 3:38 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 Groove Champion said: There is no answer to this debate. Whether it is achieved through communist, socialist, capitalist, religious or industrial means, total control of a country's population is always handed to the few. I don't think this is tragic because it is a pattern we embrace fully. When provided with a matrix to evolve in, most people don't wonder at the possibilities beyond and simply accept the existence they are "allowed" to live out. Whether it be one of potato-eating, hammer-swinging, rifle-threatened peasantry or one of gray, odorless, tasteless office life, the reaction natural to most subjects is the same: unquestioning daily routine. By no means is this a call to action in order to break an age-old human habit, but rather it is a call to please spare the shattered ribs of a dead horse further punishment. Your thoughts here are exactly why the American experiement is so exciting.  It rejects such defeatism, and embraces possibility.  Note I did not say equality of results, or fairness, or social justice.  But there is more equality of  possibility, much more than nearly any other place, or time for that matter.  Does it always achieve this?  Of course not, we're humans, we never succeed fully.  Bit it's the chase, the effort, and a freedom to try that's so exciting. There is an answer to this debate.  If one chooses to not accept it, well, there is littel one can do about that.  but I assure you there is an answer. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 4:09 pm

*Wolfsbane* Arbiters Darkwind Guru Badlands Truckstop Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,038 Joined: Oct 9, 2009 You've never been anywhere outside America, have you? Try not to fall for the propaganda - America's one of the most unequal societies in the world. In fact, I suspect that's one reason there's so much anti-socialist propaganda - America's well overdue some sort of workers' uprising. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp2 cont Posted Nov 26, 2010, 4:26 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 removed ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 4:51 pm Last edited Nov 26, 2010, 5:35 pm by *Grograt*

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 *Wolfsbane* said: You've never been anywhere outside America, have you?  Try not to fall for the propaganda - America's one of the most unequal societies in the world.  In fact, I suspect that's one reason there's so much anti-socialist propaganda - America's well overdue some sort of workers' uprising. How about Japan (Okinawa as well, although the Japanese don't really consider it part of Japan proper), Korea, Australia, Kuwait, Iraq, Turkey, Germany, England (Scotland and Wales too!), France, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and the obligatory Mexico/Virgin Islands/Bahamas etc, as well as the oulying areas of the U.S. such as Alaska and Hawaii and most of the continental states.  So yes I have been outside America.  I've lived 8 years in various places outside America.  Is that enough for you?  Or is there some other obscure requirement to have an opinion?  You will have to define your unequal comment because I think you mean unequal in respect to results.  I am talking about equality in respect to possibility.  It is not possible to be equal in results, or to even be close to equal.  Who would want to live that way?  The mind and spirit crushing control it requires central power to attain equality of results is probably the single worst idea the human mind has conceived.  The last 200 odd years of statist attempts at such are a sad testament to to that fact.  Again, 100 million corpses are really the only number one needs to know when considering intentions as opposed to actual results (interseting that no one has yet addressed this in their counter "propoganda").  I do not deny that many believe their intentions noble in respect to socialism, but the willing blindness to the actual results is one of lifes great mysteries.  Tell me, are Greece, Ireland and Portugal bankrupt because of too much Socialism, or too much Capitalism?  Has China emerged from a nightmare of poverty and oppression because they embraced more Marxism, or more free market ideas?  I could likely write your response right now, but will wait to see if you suprise. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 5:01 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 goat starer said: naughty stuff Very good Goat.  Once again you prove to be the Troll/Flamer that you are.  But everyone laughs, ah look, isn't Goat so funny?  He called JS a Stupid person! giggle giggle.  Ah, he is ever so clever! Any moderators about?  Didn't think so. EDIT by Marshal Ninesticks - didn't see much point in having the original insult removed but leaving a quote of it still up. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 5:04 pm Last edited Nov 26, 2010, 6:13 pm by *Ninesticks*

Djihani Rollovers Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 899 Joined: Jun 26, 2009 My grandparents had to run when Russia came and my ancestral grounds are still occupied. Just sayin. World's a fooked up place, let's drive cars in the imaginary desert and shoot and loot and kill for survival. ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn raceL1 deathrceL10,4,0 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 5:05 pm

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 JS said: Any moderators about?  Didn't think so. There are , just one that actually watches, but not 24/7 goat please refrain from one line abusive posts. If you have a point lay it out in the eloquent way we all know you can. ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted Nov 26, 2010, 5:37 pm

*Rev. V* Cestus Dei Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 3,208 Joined: Aug 4, 2010 "America's well overdue some sort of workers' uprising. " We had one. There was a time time when things actually used to get DONE. But, this was before the unions decided people HAD to have a 70k a year salary to push a button on an assembly line, and 50k to drive a forklift... I WILL freely admit that there were MANY other factors that led to the decline of the US automotive industry, but the workers and their demands certainly added their fair share of FAIL to the mix. I also remember back in the 80's when other countries really started to pump up exporting steel to the US. I had a friend's dad who was a high steel ironworker. Although he was loathe to admit it, he would concede that the imported steel was usually better than the stuff coming from Bethlehem Steel, which was staffed by people making OUTRAGEOUS salaries for the time. Our "workers revolution" certainly DID do a lot of good, in many ways, but it also did a lot of BAD too. ......................... vet wv zom marshal paintladder cont Posted Nov 26, 2010, 6:10 pm

Bandulu Kreeps Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 106 Joined: Sep 17, 2010 Heh? I suggested Reds could get a small production bonus for their mechs. Then you said the idea was completely ridiculous, so I gave you three examples showing it wasn't so. And now I am an apologist? Get a grip. About unions, sure it could be argued they have gone a bit over the top and are hampering competitivity. But you have to remember what it was like before them. Just to put things in perspective, in Russia for instance before the revolution, you had this massive rural exodus and workers who left their farms to go live in big cities, had 15 hours shifts, often slept on factory floors at night, and had miserable living conditions. Child labour was endemic too. Too much socialism is definitely not a good thing, but unfettered capitalism can often be as destructive. ......................... vet wv Posted Nov 26, 2010, 7:31 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 JS said: goat starer said: naughty stuff Very good Goat.  Once again you prove to be the Troll/Flamer that you are.  But everyone laughs, ah look, isn't Goat so funny?  He called JS a Stupid person! giggle giggle.  Ah, he is ever so clever! Any moderators about?  Didn't think so. EDIT by Marshal Ninesticks - didn't see much point in having the original insult removed but leaving a quote of it still up. i didn't call you a stupid person. i called you a pillock. i didn't do it for laughs.. i did it because you objectively are one. i don't intend to engage in your purile and ill educated nonsense on communism. I didn't spend years studying the subject to debate it from somebody who got their information from the right wing press. and Grograt... I find JSs posts on this subject completely offensive. Please remove them. or shut up and leave mine alone. I dont care which. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 7:43 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 goat starer said: JS said: goat starer said: naughty stuff Very good Goat.  Once again you prove to be the Troll/Flamer that you are.  But everyone laughs, ah look, isn't Goat so funny?  He called JS a Stupid person! giggle giggle.  Ah, he is ever so clever! Any moderators about?  Didn't think so. EDIT by Marshal Ninesticks - didn't see much point in having the original insult removed but leaving a quote of it still up. i didn't call you a stupid person. i called you a pillock. i didn't do it for laughs.. i did it because you objectively are one. i don't intend to engage in your purile and ill educated nonsense on communism. I didn't spend years studying the subject to debate it from somebody who got their information from the right wing press. and Grograt... I find JSs posts on this subject completely offensive. Please remove them. or shut up and leave mine alone. I dont care which. Outstanding, I was wondering if we would get some eloquence.  ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 7:58 pm

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 goat i have to treat everyone the same here, even friends. If a post is an out right one line attack then i will remove it whether it be you, firefly or even Nine. Being told to shut up, certainly wont work, as you should know : Anyway lets not derail this thread any further *Edit* If this thread does turn into a ream of personal attacks, ill just lock it ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted Nov 26, 2010, 8:12 pm Last edited Nov 26, 2010, 8:14 pm by *Grograt*

*Rev. V* Cestus Dei Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 3,208 Joined: Aug 4, 2010 "Just to put things in perspective, in Russia for instance before the revolution, you had this massive rural exodus and workers who left their farms to go live in big cities, had 15 hours shifts, often slept on factory floors at night, and had miserable living conditions. Child labour was endemic too. " The northern industrialized US was like that too in the 1800's, especially in the textile industry. ......................... vet wv zom marshal paintladder cont Posted Nov 26, 2010, 8:44 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 Bandulu said: Heh? I suggested Reds could get a small production bonus for their mechs. Then you said the idea was completely ridiculous, so I gave you three examples showing it wasn't so. And now I am an apologist? Get a grip. About unions, sure it could be argued they have gone a bit over the top and are hampering competitivity. But you have to remember what it was like before them. Just to put things in perspective, in Russia for instance before the revolution, you had this massive rural exodus and workers who left their farms to go live in big cities, had 15 hours shifts, often slept on factory floors at night, and had miserable living conditions. Child labour was endemic too. Too much socialism is definitely not a good thing, but unfettered capitalism can often be as destructive. Why did they leave the rural areas?  Did they go to the cities in order to have a worse life?  Or did they go there to get the jobs that were offered there?  Yes, condiditons were tough.  They were tougher wherever it was they left from.  That's why they left and went to where the jobs were.  The factory owners didn't make a factory in order to oppress their workers.  They made factories to build things, and to feed their families, which in turn fed many employees.  That of course was not out of some grand magnanimous plan.  However it was a side efffect of the factory and a free market. Yes, things were tough.  Certainly, but what is always lost in the "condiitons were so bad" argument is "tougher than what?"  Starving on a farm that is failing, or cannot support the number of people on it?  My point about the manufacturing is that a socialist ideology does not in fact increase manufacturing, it retards it.  As compared to a free market system.  Saying that the communists improved their industry is entirely different from saying it was the best way to do it.  The stumbling, decrepit collapse of the USSR proves this point.  Did they improve their indstrial base, sure.  Did they come woefully short of the west, without doubt.  It's a testament to an ideology cloven to like a neo-religion that some still believe in the hocus-pocus.  There is some good news at the end of the day.  Freedom is the natural state of man, oppression always collapses on itself being morally bankrupt and without natural support.  Every tyranny has eventualy fallen.  Even, and especially, the ones with all the right intentions and the assumption of knowlege no human can possiby have.  It is equally true that being men, we can think up new tyrannies.  ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 8:45 pm

*Rev. V* Cestus Dei Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 3,208 Joined: Aug 4, 2010 "My point about the manufacturing is that a socialist ideology does not in fact increase manufacturing, it retards it." I would argue that this is not correct. It can increase production, by orders of magnitude. It will however, stifle the sort of INNOVATION you see where products compete against each other in a free market. There's no competion to do better or "one up" the other guy, there's "The State Approved Item", and that's it. They can get VERY efficient about producing that item. ......................... vet wv zom marshal paintladder cont Posted Nov 26, 2010, 8:53 pm Last edited Nov 26, 2010, 9:00 pm by Rev. V

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 *Grograt* said: goat i have to treat everyone the same here, even friends. If a post is an out right one line attack then i will remove it whether it be you, firefly or even Nine. Being told to shut up, certainly wont work, as you should know : Anyway lets not derail this thread any further *Edit* If this thread does turn into a ream of personal attacks, ill just lock it  HEY GROGRAT... I hear you like parrots!!! ninesticks told me you had had a ####atoo. or at least i think thats what he said  lock it then you big poo faced goose fiddler!  ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 9:01 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 Rev. V said: "My point about the manufacturing is that a socialist ideology does not in fact increase manufacturing, it retards it." I would argue that this is not correct. It can increase production, by orders of magnitude. It will however, stifle the sort of INNOVATION you see where products compete against each other in a free market. There's no competion to do better or "one up" the other guy, there's "The State Approved Item", and that's it. They can get VERY efficient about producing that item. Rev, you left out the part where I said it retards it compared to other systems, for example a free system such as the west generally has.  Yes, the Reds increased manufacturing, but again, as compared to what, and was it really the best plan?  My argument is it was not.  They were never efficient in making one item, or any item.  In fact, their efficiency was abysmal, as was the quality.  What they were good at was making A LOT of items no one needed or wanted, while being unbelieveably wasteful in labor, materiels and energy.  That is not efficiency, it's stupidity. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 9:15 pm

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