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Reds, what are they good for?

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 Hee hee , l love you... ya miserable northern git ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted Nov 26, 2010, 9:15 pm

Djihani Rollovers Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 899 Joined: Jun 26, 2009 I'd say give REd's mechs a small production bonus but make them wear out MUCH faster. ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn raceL1 deathrceL10,4,0 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 9:34 pm

Groove Champion The Groove Champions Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 4,813 Joined: Sep 16, 2008 Djihani said: I'd say give REd's mechs a small production bonus but make them wear out MUCH faster. all raging alcoholics fixed  ......................... vet combatL1 wv cont0,5,0 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 9:50 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 Groove Champion said: Djihani said: I'd say give REd's mechs a small production bonus but make them wear out MUCH faster. all raging alcoholics fixed  Well, I'll be, there's an exception to every rule.  They did increase alcoholism exponentially.  And that's saying something for Russians.  Turns out the only thing that made a serfs life more miserable than being a serf was being a communist serf. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 9:55 pm

*Rev. V* Cestus Dei Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 3,208 Joined: Aug 4, 2010 "They were never efficient in making one item, or any item. In fact, their efficiency was abysmal, as was the quality. " Sure they were efficient, you don't just snap your fingers and a buttload of tanks appears. That takes some organized heavy industry to make happen. Especially a tank that has even a slight chance to stand up to an 88. AK-47's might not be the most accurate firearm in the world, but there sure is a TON of them out there. And they're tough and mostly idiot-proof. It depends on what SECTOR the "widget" is made for, private or military. And sometimes, QUANTITY has a QUALITY of it's own..... ......................... vet wv zom marshal paintladder cont Posted Nov 26, 2010, 10:02 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 T-34 ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 10:34 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 Rev. V said: "They were never efficient in making one item, or any item.  In fact, their efficiency was abysmal, as was the quality. " Sure they were efficient, you don't just snap your fingers and a buttload of tanks appears. That takes some organized heavy industry to make happen. Especially a tank that has even a slight chance to stand up to an 88. AK-47's might not be the most accurate firearm in the world, but there sure is a TON of them out there. And they're tough and mostly idiot-proof. It depends on what SECTOR the "widget" is made for, private or military. And sometimes, QUANTITY has a QUALITY of it's own..... Rev, come on, efficiency is not implied in pure numbers.  Yes, they churned out a lot of equipment.  They also imported a bunch to fill the gaps they made by throwing their new equipment insanely at the Hun.  Once again, because they churned out a lot of equipment in the manner they did is different than saying there was a better way. Of course, a total war effort is something of a different story than a peace time economy.  The US had a much more top down industrial plan in the war.  Efficiencies in mass producing a few specific war materiels was gained over curtailing all the myriad of other products made in peace.  It's a trade off.  So, if we are talking purely about the war time econiomy, then I will grant yo ua certain amount of eficiency gained from the total effort on a relatively few war time materiels.  No argument there.  But my general comment on their lack of efficiency stands in regards to their manufacturing as a whole. T-34 was a great tank, no match for an 88 though (more so than their earlier models of course), even the KVs had to be careful with that gun.  You did say slight chance, concur there.  things changed when the Germans put the 88 and its variants on their tanks. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 10:59 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 For anyone interested in the subject of Statism, Stalin and Hitler and the Second World War on the Eastern Front I recommend a book called "Deathride: Hitler vs Stalin - the Eastern Front, 1941-45" by John Mosier. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 11:10 pm

FireFly Anarcho-Pumpkin Privateers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 5,468 Joined: Mar 3, 2008 Nothing in WWII really stood a chance against the German tanks, so in that regard, the T-34's did a great job. And its not like the Americans didn't tank-spam the axis either, the Sherman were junk in comparison to the T34's or pretty much any other German tank... What was it the Sovies called em again, Cookers, something like that, because pretty much any hit would set them on fire  That, and they looked much better, I mean, Come on, You've got this... Or... this... Of course, again, the German tanks are in a class of their own  Still, none of those ever stood a chance against the 88's on the tigers... To bad, or rather, luckily, not a lot of these were ever made  Either way, I got off topic, but tanks are really, really awesome! Well, Actually, I suppose the IS and Pershing series of tanks stood a good chance of taking on the tigers and panthers, but by the time they entered the war properly, it was already over, I believe. ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn deathrceL1 elmsautumn pvp1 pvp2 sssc raceL1 e2g combatL1 santa1 pvp3 gwextrav ww circuit32,18,0 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 11:22 pm Last edited Nov 26, 2010, 11:26 pm by FireFly

Groove Champion The Groove Champions Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 4,813 Joined: Sep 16, 2008 They also improved on the potato! ......................... vet combatL1 wv cont0,5,0 Posted Nov 26, 2010, 11:43 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 This conversation basically illustrates very effectively 2 things. 1. the appalling lack of education on what communism actually is and how it differs from soviet style government in the US and the west. 2. exactly how little people know of what the soviet union invented. Look at a list... it has a VERY strong bias towards military hardware and concepts - from paratroops to reactive armour - because the country was under attack or at war for almost all of its existence. This bull#### about communism being bad / good at things is completely stupid as its never been tested. If you look at progress.. taking into account 70 years of war and 20 million plus deaths of young men (not even counting Stalins purges) the fact that teh soviet union inustrialised, won a world war, won the race into space looks like pretty strong evidence that there was no massive brake on invention in the Soviet Union. not that that is any way relevant to communism. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Nov 27, 2010, 10:04 am

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 goat starer said: This conversation basically illustrates very effectively 2 things. 1. the appalling lack of education on what communism actually is and how it differs from soviet style government in the US and the west. 2. exactly how little people know of what the soviet union invented. Look at a list... it has a VERY strong bias towards military hardware and concepts - from paratroops to reactive armour - because the country was under attack or at war for almost all of its existence. This bull#### about communism being bad / good at things is completely stupid as its never been tested. If you look at progress.. taking into account 70 years of war and 20 million plus deaths of young men (not even counting Stalins purges) the fact that teh soviet union inustrialised, won a world war, won the race into space looks like pretty strong evidence that there was no massive brake on invention in the Soviet Union. not that that is any way relevant to communism. We can only assess communism in regards to its actual track record (of which the USSR version is very clearly one of the most important, if not the most important).  Theory is lovely for nighty nights and story telling.  We live in the real world.  Where communism has been applied, it has collapsed into a putrid, reeking corpse of ideological failure.  Precisely because the vaunted "theory" is impossible to apply in the real world.  You have spent a considerable amount of effort to tell us that the wests system is not a pure free market.  You are correct, but do you see the logical connection?  I doubt it, as you appear to be a true believer.  As fervent as any American evangelist could hope to be.  No system is "pure" to it's theory, the question is which one is better in execution.  So, do not assume so much Goat, I am well aware of the differences.  I find it simply hilarious that you disavow Soviet communism as pertinent to this debate, then tout their accomplishments and then say it is irrelevant to the debate.  I will concede your rhetorical skills are decent, your logic on the other hand is so transparent as to be invisible. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 27, 2010, 10:51 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 JS.. if you want an apple but get given an orange you would be very suprised if everone else kept insisting it was an apple. the Soviet Union never implemented anything that remotely looks like communism. What it did produce collapsed because it was effectively monopolistic capitalism at a horrible extreme. Failure to recognise that by people who know absolutely #### all about politics and political theory is one of the main things holding back real socialist movements round the world. I only point out soviet acomplishments to completely destroy the idea that state control removes innovation. It is irrelevant to a discussion about communism but it was a point made earlier in this thread. now go back to reading the tabloids and watching fox news and basically #### off... another one goes on ignore. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Nov 27, 2010, 7:22 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 goat starer said: JS.. if you want an apple but get given an orange you would be very suprised if everone else kept insisting it was an apple. the Soviet Union never implemented anything that remotely looks like communism. What it did produce collapsed because it was effectively monopolistic capitalism at a horrible extreme. Failure to recognise that by people who know absolutely #### all about politics and political theory is one of the main things holding back real socialist movements round the world. I only point out soviet acomplishments to completely destroy the idea that state control removes innovation. It is irrelevant to a discussion about communism but it was a point made earlier in this thread. now go back to reading the tabloids and watching fox news and basically #### off... another one goes on ignore. Very good Goat, you do seem to have a grasp of the concepts.  Your failure to understand that communism/statism of any kind will always trend toward the Soviet experience is your problem.  In order to force a human being to comply with the dictates of a socialist system it takes top down control.  (This is something Lenin came somewhat late to in his ideology, but Stalin grasped immediately).  Top down control necessitates a command economy.  Most importantly because an individual can express his individuality most effectively by ownership and free economic interactions, something a socialist system cannot allow.  Once established, top down control cannot be disestablished, because it is run by humans and that is quite beyond their nature.  Once again, your theory runs smack into the walll of reality.  So, I am aware the Soviet Union was monopolistic capitalism (it must be noted that most definitions of capitalism refer to private ownership, in this case it refers to the capital being controlled by a relatively small monopolistic group.  The party in the Soviets case).  Capitalism then, is not automatically a free market.  Captialism is a requirment for a free market, but does not guarantee it.  I never said state control destroys innovation.  Although touting mainly military advancements is of dubious worth to winning over an audience that is not interested in world domination.  The Soviets ceratinly did innovate.  My point, as ever, is while they were innovating at a communists pace the free world left them behind.  By any meausure, certain notable excpetions notwithstanding, the worlds communist/socialist experiments have been out paced by free market ideas by a wide wide margin.  So yes, they innovated themselves right into the dustbin of history. For the last part, I have enjoyed this debate.  It's too bad you are ignoring me now.  I don't think I have directly insulted you, although you have done so to me constantly.  Most of my arguments have been ignored because I am too stupid, or because it is claimed I get my news from the tabloids or some other ad hominem attack.  This is a rhetorical debate tactic used by the left "ad nauseum", if may use yet another Latin term.  But no worries, you are ignoring me now.  Anyway, I'll be busy ####ing off as you so colorfully, and childishly, continue to say.  Good day to you Sir.  It must be an angry, angry world you live in.  If you are interested in continuing I'll be around.  The world is watching as they say. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 27, 2010, 8:34 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 ahhhh bliss ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Nov 27, 2010, 9:49 pm

Iron Wraith Iron Wraiths Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Members Posts: 818 Joined: Feb 2, 2009 Can we compromise on "Pure Communism is no less effective a form of government as any other and as with all forms of government some peoples interests will benefit more than others. Human nature means that pure communism will always end up being degraded to some other political system as unless the vast majority of participants are selfless, someone will #### it all up." ......................... vet wv raceL1 deathrceL1 Posted Nov 27, 2010, 10:41 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 Iron Wraith said: Can we compromise on "Pure Communism is no less effective a form of government as any other and as with all forms of government some peoples interests will benefit more than others. Human nature means that pure communism will always end up being degraded to some other political system as unless the vast majority of participants are selfless, someone will #### it all up." No, I don't believe that communism is equal as a form of government.  No government is perfect, but to assign equivalency to all of them is to ignore the obvious track records of the various kinds. Some peoples interests will benefit form others is true.  The question then is how that is handled.  Where there is liberty the benefit is according to ones individual capability, which varies as a result of a myriad of things.  But most importantly one is free to at least try.  Where there is tyranny, and communism/scialism/statism as it has been applied in the real world clearly falls into that category, there is less individual liberty.  And thus less individual control on influencing ones interests. Concur with your last, and other forms of government can get to that state as well.  That is why the people must be vigilant, and educated, not indoctrinated.  Government is a dangerous thing, it is like fire, a neccessary tool, but one that should be carefully watched and not trifled with.  Lest someone think I am over stating or exaggerating, simply read some history.  We cannot assume we are smarter or somehow immune to the foibles of the past.  We aren't. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 12:00 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 still bliss... thanks sam for preservingus from the views of halfwits! ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 12:25 am

Iron Wraith Iron Wraiths Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Members Posts: 818 Joined: Feb 2, 2009 JS: You failed to note my deliberate use of the words PURE communism. The faults your describe as being self-evident are faults of APPLIED communism. There are many examples around the world of flawed Applied communism. There are just as many examples of flawed APPLIED democracy. Stalin wasn't a communist, he was a Stalinist (thats why they gave a special name to his form of government it looks more like imperialist facism to me). We have been trying to get democracy right since the ancient greeks. Florida, Iraq, Italy and the current UK coalition shows we haven't quite nailed it yet. The Russian experiment with "communism" had less than 100 years , let's not be too quick to damn the theory on such flimsy evidence. The trouble with humans (under any political system) is that we are fundamentally tribal. Any political system will probably work wihtin the "tribe" and there are plenty of examples of communism working there. Once you get to the macroscopic scale most systems fall down as the general economic down turn amply demonstrates. ......................... vet wv raceL1 deathrceL1 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 9:09 am

*Maxxed* [v]@Xx3D []ut Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 961 Joined: May 20, 2010 At the risk of derailing this supercilious debate I can't help but pointing out what to me appears to be the obvious overlooked point in this whole discussion. Currently all gangs work under a 'red' philosophy ie a socialist-collective meritocracy. The best person for the job (the dood with the highest leadership and courage) is the leader and all commodities, resources and assets are shared by the whole gang. As far as resource management is concerned this is effectively communism... The only capitalist tinge to gang economics is that the veterans and higher skilled doods get a higher wage than the new recruits. ......................... vet wv deathrceL1 marshal pvp5 pvp20,0,1 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 10:21 am Last edited Nov 28, 2010, 10:23 am by Maxxed

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