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Reds, what are they good for?

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 Iron Wraith said: JS: You failed to note my deliberate use of the words PURE communism.  The faults your describe as being self-evident are faults of APPLIED communism.  There are many examples around the world of flawed Applied communism.  There are just as many examples of flawed APPLIED democracy. Stalin wasn't a communist, he was a Stalinist (thats why they gave a special name to his form of government it looks more like imperialist facism to me). We have been trying to get democracy right since the ancient greeks. Florida, Iraq, Italy and the current UK coalition shows we haven't quite nailed it yet.  The Russian experiment with "communism" had less than 100 years , let's not be too quick to damn the theory on such flimsy evidence. The trouble with humans (under any political system) is that we are fundamentally tribal.  Any political system will probably work wihtin the "tribe" and there are plenty of examples of communism working there.  Once you get to the macroscopic scale most systems fall down as the general economic down turn amply demonstrates. We are in violent agreement Warith as far as the applied version of communism goes.  My point, as it has been from the beginnign is that theoretical communism is not possible, as it is not possible because we are human it always becomes some sort of applied communism as we have seen in the world.  This is a relaistic view of the theory. So, if you are saying that the theoretical communism and the theoretical deomocracy are equivalent, I have little, really no one has any, ability to judge that in the real world.  Even in theory it is an exercise in futility.  We can't test it. Comunism/Socialism (the theories mind you, not actual applied govs) has actually been around for about 300 years depending on who you take as the originator.  Yes, about 100 years for the Soviets/Chinese.  As for being quick to damn the evidence, I do that, admittedly.  But I do not think it "quick"  100 years of misery is hardly quick.  In any event, 100 millions souls killed by collectivist murder would surely find great comfort in us not condemning a souless system that liquidated them.  I for one connot in good conscience do it.  Know why?  Because I am one of the people they would kill/imprison. Good call on the communism/stalinism difference.  Again, I am arguing applied communist ideas and use the various offshoots, stalinism included as examples of the theory applied the real world.  Good connection with fascism.  At the risk of having every person educated from 1945 to now have their head blow up I'll say this.  Fascism is another "ism" directly related to communist theory.  The littel corporal cut his collectivist teeth in circles that tried to apply the theory.  His particular strain was nationalist.  Then he god delusions of grandeur and went hog wild with the imperiast bit added on. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 10:38 am Last edited Nov 28, 2010, 10:39 am by JS

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 Maxxed said: At the risk of derailing this supercilious debate I can't help but pointing out what to me appears to be the obvious overlooked point in this whole discussion. Currently all gangs work under a 'red' philosophy ie a socialist-collective meritocracy. The best person for the job (the dood with the highest leadership and courage) is the leader and all commodities, resources and assets are shared by the whole gang. As far as resource management is concerned this is effectively communism... The only capitalist tinge to gang economics is that the veterans and higher skilled doods get a higher wage than the new recruits. That could be one interpretation, but if smeone wanted to RP a democratic version?  Or Theocratic? Why is it supercilious?  It's a fascinating topic.  I don't think I'm superior, I'm enjoying the hell out of discussing a weighty and interesting topic.  Part of a free society is the ability to disagree and dsicuss.  It's awesome. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 10:42 am

*Maxxed* [v]@Xx3D []ut Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 961 Joined: May 20, 2010 JS I am not suggesting that you (or anyone in particular) is supercilious. But it does seem to be a pervasive tone in the discussion from both sides of the political divide. I think that we can all agree that the political spectrum is circular as opposed to diametrically linear and could best be represented in two dimensional terms as a circle. At one point of the circle you have Anarchy at the furthest point(ie in either direction right or left - well clockwise and anticlockwise to be pedantic) you have fascism. At many points in this debate people have discussed the politics of WW2 yet unless I have missed something no-one has yet acknowledged that theoretically the battle between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union was a battle between two imperialist socialist states. (Admittedly both dictatorships were socialist in name only IMHO) Nazism is now considered to be a right-wing philosophy although it is (etymologically at any rate) left wing as the Nazi Party or to give it its full name Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSADP) expounded a philosophy of Nationalist Socialism. Curiously enough Nazi is also the name of a Sumerian Demi-God...a fact that no doubt appealed to Hitlers Occult insensibilities. ......................... vet wv deathrceL1 marshal pvp5 pvp20,0,1 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 11:08 am

Iron Wraith Iron Wraiths Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Members Posts: 818 Joined: Feb 2, 2009 Maxxed we arn't talking about our intra-gang politics, they are a special form of government called "software". We are talking about the inter-gang politics i.e. the bit we as players have some control over. Since however the game mechanics only allows transfer of assets via a market place (possibly for a notional fee admittedly), it is neither truely communist or democratic as non-subscribers have no access the the market place. Hence you see I am a true renegade outlaw. I do not trade, not do I pay storage fees, I cannot own a camp (not that at the ludicrous prices I could anyway). I could not buy the rare weapons and so I have become deadly proficient in the common ones. I own no buzzers, fire trucks or any other rare vehicles. My scouts are a net loss as I must hire vehicles and anything I capture simply sits in my lockup until the glorious day of revolution when I convince my wife that I can subscribe again (this may be sometime in 2020 on current evidence). I work for the good of Somerset, my gang pays for the privilege and I gain nothing material from it. In short I am free of the shackles of the imperial running dog materialist mentality. (The last with tongue very much in cheek). ......................... vet wv raceL1 deathrceL1 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 11:09 am

*Maxxed* [v]@Xx3D []ut Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 961 Joined: May 20, 2010 Also it is worth noting that the majority of the allies used socialist principals in the economic strategies that ultimately allowed them to win the war such as the seizure of private property, the means of production and other non-crown assets and of course conscription. As far as i am concerned conscription is the invisible elephant in the room. The capitalist superpowers have used conscription in a variety of conflicts and you can have no greater degradation of personal freedom than the demand of the state for one to kill and die in it's name. ......................... vet wv deathrceL1 marshal pvp5 pvp20,0,1 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 11:16 am Last edited Nov 28, 2010, 11:19 am by Maxxed

*Maxxed* [v]@Xx3D []ut Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 961 Joined: May 20, 2010 Whilst i have always enjoyed a wholesome debate of any nature I believe that the majority of posts in this thread are based on emotive fallacy as opposed to a true interest in rhetoric. I have chosen not to quote example in the interest of defusing the debate as opposed to adding fuel to the powder keg. ......................... vet wv deathrceL1 marshal pvp5 pvp20,0,1 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 11:26 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 Maxxed said: Whilst i have always enjoyed a wholesome debate of any nature I believe that the majority of posts in this thread are based on emotive fallacy as opposed to a true interest in rhetoric. I have chosen not to quote example in the interest of defusing the debate as opposed to adding fuel to the powder keg. that is hilarious.. as you are completely aware EVERYONE will think you are talking about them.. pile on the powder MAX!!! ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 11:43 am

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 Maxxed said: JS I am not suggesting that you (or anyone in particular) is supercilious. But it does seem to be a pervasive tone in the discussion from both sides of the political divide. I think that we can all agree that the political spectrum is circular as opposed to diametrically linear and could best be represented in two dimensional terms as a circle. At one point of the circle you have Anarchy at the furthest point(ie in either direction right or left - well clockwise and anticlockwise to be pedantic) you have fascism. At many points in this debate people have discussed the politics of WW2 yet unless I have missed something no-one has yet acknowledged that theoretically the battle between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union was a battle between two imperialist socialist states. (Admittedly both dictatorships were socialist in name only IMHO) Nazism is now considered to be a right-wing philosophy although it is (etymologically at any rate) left wing as the Nazi Party or to give it its full name Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSADP) expounded a philosophy of Nationalist Socialism. Curiously enough Nazi is also the name of a Sumerian Demi-God...a fact that no doubt appealed to Hitlers Occult insensibilities. Spot on Maxxed.  It was a supreme propgandic victory for the Soviets (mainly) to cast Fascism as "right wing".  As if somehow forms of complete control of an economy/country/culture, could be diametrically opposed only by how the control is accomplished.  Illogical in the extreme.  I would add one other thought on the Anarchy side.  If we allow the circle to include theoretical forms (this is problematic, and does not seat well with my arguments regarding the real world, but humor me for a moment) I would argue that on the one side you have Statism, or complete control, and on the other you have Liberty, or the lack of any control.  In theory, both are the "perfect" form of that kind of system.  Anarchy I would contend, is an imperfect form of pure liberty, with all of its nasty consequences to humanity, just as Communism/Fascism as they are practiced in the real world, etc are imperfect forms of pure Statism.  If students of communism would like to contend their form of statism is the theoretical pure form, I'm not inclined to argue as that becomes something of a semantic debate.  Depending on how they bend their logic to prove or disprove events in the real world. Concur also with your thought on the origin of Nazism.  The various socialists/communists never forgave Hitler for taking their ideas to the place he took them.  Although, historical truth says they took them to a very similar place.  Minus the "Final Solution", in practice, they all murdered, jailed and enslaved vast numbers of people.  Something that has yet to be addressed in any of the counter arguments here.  Because it cannot be excused, even by lovely, pie in the sky theories. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 12:19 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 Maxxed said: Also it is worth noting that the majority of the allies used socialist principals in the economic strategies that ultimately allowed them to win the war such as the seizure of private property, the means of production and other non-crown assets and of course conscription. As far as i am concerned conscription is the invisible elephant in the room. The capitalist superpowers have used conscription in a variety of conflicts and you can have no greater degradation of personal freedom than the demand of the state for one to kill and die in it's name. All too true.  But it there is no equivalency in saying that because the western allies conscripted people, and curtailed some freedoms during the various wars they are no worse or better than Statist regimes.  This is a very dangerous concept that is all to prevalent in education these days.  The fact is, there are "better" and "worse" governmental options.  Notice I never said perfect.  This is important because of how the argument is framed to students.  Essentially, socialist ideas are presented as being able to evolve to a "perfect" system.  While any other governmental ideas are shown as flawed.  It is difficult on a superficial level to argue that ones ideas are better precisely because they are flawed when faced by an argument that promises eventual perfection.  Any counter to socialist ideology based on performance is invariably answered to effect that "yes, but we are progressing, so eventually it will be perfect".  Basically, "you're not doing it right!"  ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 12:27 pm

lordbam Nephilim Rising Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,410 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 Left and right is actually derived from the French revolution. In the parliament the conservatives where seated right, the revolutionists where seated left. So the term left and right actually means: Left: those who want change. right: those who value the current system. I myself think left and right is a stupid system. Linear or circular, doesn't matter. It is impossible to sum up a political idea in 1 word. A nice example would be a Belgian party Spirit. This was a Social (left) liberal (right) party that wanted to have Belgium split in Flanders and Wallonie (ultra right wing). Even though they where ultra right wing they valued a social structure with free health care and so on (left wing). So please stop talking about left and right unless you are talking about the French revolution. ......................... vet wv zom0,3,0 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 12:37 pm

Iron Wraith Iron Wraiths Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Members Posts: 818 Joined: Feb 2, 2009 JS: I am not sure why you keep referring to the pogroms as though they are an intrinsic part of communism. Communism is about everyone working for the common good "from each.. to each etc.". Deciding to kill all the aristos, bourgois, facist running dogs, Jews, Gypsies, commies, anarchists or whatever is simply the method the state chooses to execute its mandate. Most political systems have engaged in this kind of activity in order to install its "better for everyone" system, sometimes on other people (the british used chemical warfare on the Kurds in the early 20th century). The second world war was the states big chance to get rid of whoever they decided was trouble. The balkans were a prime example of people using someone elses war to get rid of their neighbours and steal some land. Sadly my scientific training means that I cannot accept an example of a poorly implemented social system as evidence that the system itself if flawed. The only conclusion that I can realistically draw from these examples is that regardless of the socio-political system people exist within, they are basically self-interested and societies end up reflecting that partisan attitude rather than the principles of their planned soical order.. ......................... vet wv raceL1 deathrceL1 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 1:50 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 Iron Wraith said: JS: I am not sure why you keep referring to the pogroms as though they are an intrinsic part of communism.  Communism is about everyone working for the common good "from each.. to each etc.". Deciding to kill all the aristos, bourgois, facist running dogs, Jews, Gypsies, commies, anarchists or whatever is simply the method the state chooses to execute its mandate. Most political systems have engaged in this kind of activity in order to install its "better for everyone" system, sometimes on other people (the british used chemical warfare on the Kurds in the early 20th century). The second world war was the states big chance to get rid of whoever they decided was trouble.  The balkans were a prime example of people using someone elses war to get rid of their neighbours and steal some land. Sadly my scientific training means that I cannot accept an example of a poorly implemented social system as evidence that the system itself if flawed.  The only conclusion that I can realistically draw from these examples is that regardless of the socio-political system people exist within, they are basically self-interested and societies end up reflecting that partisan attitude rather than the principles of their planned soical order.. Wraith, I am referring to the Pogroms as a verifiable, factual, consequence of applied communism in our world.  Once again, I agree that in a pure communist society they would not be needed.  Because all people would agree that communism is correct (or more precisely, it is the best for all). Pure communism is not possible.  OR (and I don't believe this but many do), it is possible but the unbelievers must be removed from the equation. Hence, pogroms. The historical record is clear. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 3:23 pm

ISHOULDCOCO COCO and the BURPERS Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,440 Joined: Jul 5, 2007 "Communism causes pogroms ." Convenient generalisation. Please be more specific . COCO ......................... vet wv Posted Nov 28, 2010, 3:58 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 ISHOULDCOCO said: "Communism causes pogroms ." Convenient generalisation. Please be more specific . COCO COCO, you have quotes, but they are not to be found in any of my posts.  If you are generalizing my argument, then it is certainly convenient to do so.  You accuse me indirectly of a logical fallacy, yet commit one at the same time.  That aside, I should hope I would not have to recount the many pogroms committed in the name of Sovialism/Communism/Statism.  Stalin's purges, Mao's Great Leap forward, and Cultural Revolution, Ho Chi Minh's liquidation and suppression of the Hmong, as well as subjugation of an entire independant nation.  The ongoing insanity/nightmare in North Korea.  Che's murderous, psychopathic liquidation of dissenters in Cuba, the Khmer Rouge's outrage in Cambodia, the Ba-athist revolutons in Syria and Iraq with their corresponding bloodbaths against dissenters.  The Nazi (National Socialist) pogroms in Germany and europe. That should suffice as ample evidence that Communist/Socialist/Statist ideology has a very disturbing tendancy to allow such things to happen.  There simply is not a comparable ideological consequence in at least the last 300 years, maybe ever. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 4:31 pm

Iron Wraith Iron Wraiths Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Members Posts: 818 Joined: Feb 2, 2009 JS: "...Pogroms as a verifiable, factual, consequence of applied communism in our world." I don't see too much difference with coco's summarisation of that as communism causes pogroms. If something is a verifiable consequence of something then by by definition that something causes it. I wont put words in Coco's mouth, but the use of quotes deosn't always meaqn you quoting something, it is sometimes used to distinguish a thought you are expressing ironically. Let's not start hiding in the exact words people use when the meaning is clear. You forget the deforestation of Vietnam by democrats, the termination of the Jews, homosexuals, gypsies etc by facists, the displacement and then extermination of native americans by democrats again, massacre of indian political activists by the British Raj (imperialist - democrats), the nuclear bombing of imperialist facists by imperialist democrats, the destruction of habitat by capitalists... You also ignore the destruction of the world economy by capitalists. And again you cannot support an argument against a political system by using what you yourself admit is not a representative example of that political system. Stalin did not practice communism, he practiced facism. He got to power promising communism, but he was a lying cheating b%$£$%. Among those killed in the pogroms were those who spoke out that he wasn't practicing communism. The best form of government is a benevolent dictatorship (as any parent will tell you). Sadly dictators are rarely benevolent (maybe Castro?) and they are definetly human. Heck maybe Sadam Hussain was a good guy once, afetr all if he wasn't why would America and the UK have supported his regime all those years. ......................... vet wv raceL1 deathrceL1 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 5:25 pm

lordbam Nephilim Rising Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,410 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 The kapitalist invasion of: - Vietnam - Korea - Irak (twice) - Kouweit - the war in afghanistan - Panama - Cuba (Bay of Pigs Invasion) - Gaza - and so on....... If you have a different idea we will conquer you and "free" you. And please don't use nasism and socialism in the same sentence. ......................... vet wv zom0,3,0 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 5:29 pm Last edited Nov 28, 2010, 5:31 pm by lordbam

*Dark Tempest* The Black Legion Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,049 Joined: Jan 27, 2010 The witch hunts in the US The "Black listing" of commies by the US government The interning of Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor The Oil Spill in the Gulf of Mexico Black Slavery Prior to the civil wars The foreclosure's that are still running rampant in the States The oppression and eradication of entire Indian tribes during the settling of the west Someone else can form the arguments that follow from these examples. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp2 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 5:44 pm

lordbam Nephilim Rising Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,410 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 Children starving in the western world while the banks are getting OUR tax money. ......................... vet wv zom0,3,0 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 5:59 pm Last edited Nov 28, 2010, 6:08 pm by lordbam

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 Iron Wraith said: JS: "...Pogroms as a verifiable, factual, consequence of applied communism in our world." I don't see too much difference with coco's summarisation of that as communism causes pogroms.  If something is a verifiable consequence of something then by by definition that something causes it.   I wont put words in Coco's mouth, but the use of quotes deosn't always meaqn you quoting something, it is sometimes used to distinguish a thought you are expressing ironically. Let's not start hiding in the exact words people use when the meaning is clear. You forget the deforestation of Vietnam by democrats, the termination of the Jews, homosexuals, gypsies etc by facists, the displacement and then extermination of native americans by  democrats again, massacre of indian political activists by the British Raj (imperialist - democrats), the nuclear bombing of imperialist facists by imperialist democrats, the destruction of habitat by capitalists...    You also ignore the destruction of the world economy by capitalists. And again you cannot support an argument against a political system by using what you yourself admit is not a representative example of that political system. Stalin did not practice communism, he practiced facism.  He got to power promising communism, but he was a lying cheating b%$£$%.  Among those killed in the pogroms were those who spoke out that he wasn't practicing communism. The best form of government is a benevolent dictatorship (as any parent will tell you).  Sadly dictators are rarely benevolent (maybe Castro?) and they are definetly human.  Heck maybe Sadam Hussain was a good guy once, afetr all if he wasn't why would America and the UK have supported his regime all those years. I can support an argument against a political system by observing its implimentation in the real world.  That is all we have to go by.  I argue against it's ideas because regardless of the intentions, the consequences are all too apparent. I am interested in what works best, not what looks best on paper. Castro is a murderous thug who has benighted his country for over 50 years.  I must say, after reading these posts I despair for western civilization.  The propogandists have trained us well, they knew exactly how to destroy the liberal traditions the Greeks and Romans pioneered, the English revived and codified and the US followed.  They did it from within, exactly as their playbooks said.  ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 6:24 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 lordbam said: The kapitalist invasion of: - Vietnam - Korea - Irak (twice) - Kouweit - the war in afghanistan - Panama - Cuba (Bay of Pigs Invasion) - Gaza - and so on....... If you have a different idea we will conquer you and "free" you. And please don't use nasism and socialism in the same sentence. Nazism and Socialism are strains of the same ideology. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Nov 28, 2010, 6:25 pm

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