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History of PVP

d0dger an0maly Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 2,492 Joined: Jan 24, 2010 Item 3 on Tinkers list, sections b and c (in town event and faction consequences to post resign firing) happened much later then listed, but is otherwise correct. Chronologically they happened sometime in 2010, after I started playing, and I believe after all the items listed in item #4. I know most/all of those were already in place when I started playing in Jan 2010. However section a) (SS is PVP free) was already in place when I started playing. ......................... vet wv combat1 combatL1 paintladder pvp5 sssc deathrceL1 pvp4 zom race1 semiprocombat deathrce1 raceL1 pvp3 pvp2 ww pvp1 paintball santa2 gwped4,16,10 Posted Apr 5, 2011, 10:23 pm Last edited Apr 5, 2011, 10:26 pm by d0dger

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 I just wanted to clarify two things... 1. Pushing forward a pro-pvp agenda is not anything to do with my "vision for the game". When I started work on the game, nearly 6 years ago, I envisioned lots of pvp. I have come a long way since then, and my approach for a long time has been to let the game develop according to how the community itself wants it to go. Maybe that's an ineffectual way to run things, but it's largely how it has been done. I have no "grand vision" that forces anything in a particular direction. My "grand vision" was merely to have a perma-death post-apocalyptic car wars mmo. 2. I really find it hard to believe that we have many (if any) griefers here. I know this is what anti-pvp people think is motivating this. Apart from Shark, and to a lesser extent Darth when he lost his cool, I don't recall any griefing whatsoever. I think people want pvp here not to grief those who don't want to do it, but rather to have a more dangerous world where it feels like a post-apocalypse rather than a country club. And they want to get involved in feuds with their enemies in such a way that it might actually be possible to catch them sometimes. They don't intend to bully other players - we're a more grown-up comunity than that. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Apr 5, 2011, 10:48 pm

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Just want to throw in an opinion here - I disagree that the end game of DW is PvP. I think that the end game lacks alot of things which make vets bored, but the answer isnt necessarily Pvp. Look at Latte - he got bored and started most of his gang over as an end game. He generated 50 million dollars to "buy" a church in SS. He isnt a Pvp player and still scouts alot and enjoys the game. I think more end game can/should be developed. Im sure any new events/maps/ideas will more than keep the vets happy. Sure, there are some vets who want Pvp none the less, which is cool. But its not "The Endgame of DW." ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Apr 5, 2011, 11:01 pm Last edited Apr 5, 2011, 11:01 pm by Longo

triad4evr Seekers Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: Aug 20, 2009 I spoke to you on this subject already but I just want to expound a couple points here- how is it any less of a Sunday drive when you are ambushing a player who doesn't want to PvP in PvP? Why would he be any more dangerous than somebody that actually _wants_ to PvP? Logic would suggest that a more capable PvP opponent would be the one ready for it and willing. If the victim felt confident with his or her PvP skills, he or she would have the PvP flag on. So why would a PvP player want to attack a less prepared player? How will it start a feud if a less skilled player with a little bit of good equipment gets jumped in PvP and pretty much wiped out? He is in no position to retaliate, and even if he did, the other player is a better player and/or has a better gang. If they had a good enough gang to survive the losses and could hope to retaliate, they would have their PvP flag on. So why would a PvP player want to attack a less prepared player with no hope of getting him back? I'll let you answer that question. But there's a reason why non PvP players have the flag turned off. They either can't afford the losses, aren't that good of a player (casual), or don't want to be forced to play with somebody they don't want to play with. ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 5, 2011, 11:02 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 triad4evr said: So why would a PvP player want to attack a less prepared player with no hope of getting him back? I'll let you answer that question. I know you're trying to be clever and pose a rhetorical question here, to which the only answer is that they're griefers. I know these players and they're not griefers. Can some of the pro-pvpers please answer this simple question: why do you want pvp if not simply so you can beat up on weak opposition? ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Apr 6, 2011, 12:01 am

The Paranoid Tourist Precipitous Treachery Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,828 Joined: Jan 12, 2007 *sam* said: why do you want pvp if not simply so you can beat up on weak opposition? It's a rush the likes of which PvE never is. ......................... vet gateautumn gwextrav raceL1 wv e2g0,2,0 Posted Apr 6, 2011, 12:14 am

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 Because it's fun? Challenging? Use your wits, don't have to pvp with your best people just to dominate others for dominating's sake. PT said: It's a rush the likes of which PvE never is. and that ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted Apr 6, 2011, 12:21 am Last edited Apr 6, 2011, 12:24 am by *Tinker*

John Abaddon Eldritch Assassins Racer Mutants Faction Group: Members Posts: 116 Joined: Jun 9, 2010 Let me put it very succinctly - when you all get around to tallying the people that left the game because they were forced into open PvP when they never wanted it, please make sure someone adds a vote for me. Been playing this game for almost a year...probably would have played longer if BL wasn't going to be nuked. I'm done with this game because of this tiresome B.S.... Cya all. ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 6, 2011, 1:03 am

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,513 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 So you are going to leave without anything actually happening? Isn't your over reaction jumping the gun a bit. I hunt BL all the time, I can group scout there and do whatever I like, I have my flag off. People here respect my game play (well at least I think so) so I have nothing to worry about. For you to throw your arms in the air and walk out because you didn't get your lollies is a bit of a joke and one I find rather offensive to the community. If you have your flag off, and don't push any ones buttons in the game, Im sure no one will touch you in the PvP open towns. If you happen to shoot someone in a DR or take someones loot, then you might get hit in these towns even if you have your flag off. If you ask for trouble, you will find trouble regardless of your flag, if you stay cool, you'll always be cool, or at least thats how I see it, and I really don't think there is anything for anyone to worry about. ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Apr 6, 2011, 1:03 am Last edited Apr 6, 2011, 1:08 am by Bastiel

triad4evr Seekers Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: Aug 20, 2009 removed by marshal personal attacks ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 6, 2011, 1:08 am Last edited Apr 6, 2011, 2:04 pm by *Grograt*

triad4evr Seekers Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: Aug 20, 2009 Bastiel- how about if you post in the forums with your ideas or suggestions? Does that make you fair game, too? I'm not challenging you directly or anything, you seem a fair guy- I'm more doubling up on my previous point about griefers finding an excuse to grief. And I do really, seriously beg anybody who is pro PvP to tell my why you want to force people who don't want to PvP with you to do so- please at least answer that! Thank you! ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 6, 2011, 1:08 am Last edited Apr 6, 2011, 1:12 am by triad4evr

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,513 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 I make some wild and crazy suggestions at times. It has found me some fun on the odd occasion. I even chucked a dummy spit about skins of all things once, never effected me in game at all. If I talk myself up unjustified I may find myself getting snogged up for no apparent reason. ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Apr 6, 2011, 1:11 am

triad4evr Seekers Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: Aug 20, 2009 I can only speak from my experience. Because I gave some good arguments, back then, for keeping the PvP optional in the game, Joel called me a "forum warrior" and since he couldn't PvP me in Somerset, he sent a scad of bounty hunters at me. I don't really feel like I deserved it, and as I said before, had he been able to force me into PvP, he would have, for totally personal and totally inappropriate reasons. ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 6, 2011, 1:14 am

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 triad4evr said: I can only speak from my experience. Because I gave some good arguments, back then, for keeping the PvP optional in the game, Joel called me a "forum warrior" and since he couldn't PvP me in Somerset, he sent a scad of bounty hunters at me. I don't really feel like I deserved it, and as I said before, had he been able to force me into PvP, he would have, for totally personal and totally inappropriate reasons. You jump to conclusions. I do not recall setting bounty hunters upon you (they are useless - I have used them in the past and they never do anything worthwhile).  So I might have. Checking my ####list - your name IS there.  I have written down "called me nasty names in a deathrace".  So If I called them on you - that was probably the reason. In any case I have passed on the few opportunities to join your FL glad events ( I recall one a couple months ago) and shoot your gangers.  Because , well you aren't really worth that effort and I couldn't exactly remember why you annoyed me in that deathrace (you are doing a good job of annoying me here though - maybe you did piss me off in the forums and I forgot, i CAN happen I am Human). To answer this question (which is a good one): Can some of the pro-pvpers please answer this simple question: why do you want pvp if not simply so you can beat up on weak opposition? Let's create a word for this.  Let's call it "Quan" "Immersion" "fantasy".  That's why we all play these stupid fking games.  Mine is not satisfied going out on scouts with my favorite people (and they will tell you I don't do that enough and it is true, but I will improve on that).  Mine is only satisfied with all of us connected to the world together and being able to interact positively and more importantly negatively.  It's that negative that brings out all the exciting stuff.  You see, let's say I want to waste my time making your life hell Triad, ya because [insulting language removed by Sam]...lets say that since you think that.  I agree that's a bad reason for vendetta, it's not good role playing , but sure it could happen.  Then your friends don't like me right, maybe others don't like why I've got the hate on for you and things escalate until I go "wow that turd was totally not worth all this collateral damage, maybe I should just let some B.S on the forum slide." You know that, instead of we just sit on the forum and make the real wars here and get NO enjoyment out of it (though I will admit I'm hitting my stride, I've got nothing more to lose really). A better more realistic example and particular to this latest BL open PvP issue is brought up by Ninesticks. PvE players (certain ones - some of them might even be flagged and PvP open players), CULL ALL the NPCs to dogmeat on Friday after the reset.  No good lewts for anyone else.  This DOES piss people off.  They might ask nicely - hey man do you have to scout like 15 times in a row in BL and killed everything...and the guy replies "STFU".  Well you get my point that he might say "Sorry I will spread my scouts a bit more didn't think anyone minded".  As I say, Barbarism creates politeness better than civilization any day.  We are supposed to be in a fairly barbaric world - particularly south of Gateway and sure excluding sars/texan, why not.  BL is the political capital of Evan and will be a key place as more stuff is added to Camp "interaction". (Sam can explain is that is still in the works or not). I can go on and on with examples of my version of the MMO experience.  YES IT DOES require other people to have to DEAL WITH ME OMG what a crime in a social game right?  I know!  You guys can be your usual shutin or country club playing selfs in all those other towns(SS,ELMS,GATEWAY,TEXAN,SARS - FORFKSAKE it used to JUST BE SS) and I almost guarantee by the time you can safely scout in BL BY YOURSELF(think about how hard it is to hit a group scout - it is trust me not matter how bad you want it), you will not worry too much about it with open PvP, unless you act like a total prick to multiple people.  ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Apr 6, 2011, 2:06 am Last edited Apr 6, 2011, 8:25 am by *sam*

The Paranoid Tourist Precipitous Treachery Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,828 Joined: Jan 12, 2007 Simply put, the most interesting and immersive experiences in this game are those that put players at odds with player. Hell, we're experiencing it right now in the forums, how many eyes are glued to this matter on both sides of the aisle? When something is up at stake and another human is on the other side of the line, the matter becomes MUCH more interesting. If you can't feel that then you should go back to Mario Brothers, there's nothing to see, here. ......................... vet gateautumn gwextrav raceL1 wv e2g0,2,0 Posted Apr 6, 2011, 2:20 am

triad4evr Seekers Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: Aug 20, 2009 Excellent, see, this is some of the information I wanted hear, at least we're getting down to the honest answer. It still doesn't answer part of my question, though- is it really more exciting to beat up my crappy little gang that I _know_ would suck in PvP? I guess I might be a little less predictable than the AI, but I still have trouble against the AI, so I don't see what you'd gain by PvPing _me_. Onto this list of yours, Joel, I don't recall calling you a name in a Deathrace- I don't bloviate or toot my own horn in Deathraces, in fact, I'm usually one of those "carebears" that truces with all the human players. So you might be mistaken there- unless, I suppose, you did something underhanded like shooting gangers that had resigned and I called you a "jerk" or something from it. Either way, you _did_ bounty me back then, I recall it very clearly since it does _tell_ you who sends the bounties after you're done with them, so there's that. And believe me, you are one of the reasons I almost never join Gladiator events, jerkfaces that team kill. Why do I call it team kill? Because when all the creatures die, it says "Human Players Win"- that tells me the humans are one team, the creatures another. If that wasn't the case, why does the event end when there are no creatures left? Shouldn't it really end, then, when the last man is standing, if you are suggesting that it's free-for-all, I mean. Go ahead, argue that point, too. I'm glad that you are showing just _why_ I don't want to play with you- "bounty hunters are useless"- they didn't hurt me enough, or that you'd backstab me unawares in a gladiator event. _That_ is why I don't want to play with other people. Period. Guys like you. Somewhere else somebody mentioned that PvE as it was could just as easily be a single-player game, and that was meant to be an insult. Well the truth of the matter is that if this _were_ available as single-player game, or better yet, a game that can be played coop but privately on your own server, I would totally do that in a heart beat. I would lay my money right down and unsubscribe from the MMO part immediately. For the most part, I hate having to play with other people and hate MMOs because of that. So that's where I'm coming from. Now it sounds like one of the reasons people want PvP is because somebody is exploiting when the gang fame or whatever resets on Friday- now maybe _that_ is where this fix should start. Just like people screwing the markets by buying everything up as soon as it gets there, maybe the timing on the reset of gang fame needs to be fixed so that you could roll decent loot and/or a scary gang at any time in BadLands without people farming up the good stuff. PvPing them doesn't fix that, anyway, so maybe Sam needs to look there, in my opinion. ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 6, 2011, 2:51 am Last edited Apr 6, 2011, 2:57 am by triad4evr

triad4evr Seekers Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: Aug 20, 2009 Joel- Something else I just thought of- you mentioned that for you part of the thrill is interacting negatively with people. I call that "griefing" if I don't agree to it. And in your fanciful example where you make my life hell by attacking my gang, your conclusion is false- you suggest that you'd whup on me, which I don't argue with, but then you suggest that my friends would whup on you in return, making you think that maybe it wasn't worth it. Well, I hate to put it this way, but I don't think my friends would stand a chance against you, either- you would whup them, too. So now what's my recourse? So there's the flaw with that argument. If you aren't good at PvP, you have no recourse against those that are. At least in the mythical world of fully open PvP. ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 6, 2011, 3:03 am Last edited Apr 6, 2011, 3:06 am by triad4evr

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 On a scale of 1-10, how is your 'Quan" this evening? ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Apr 6, 2011, 3:13 am

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 triad4evr said: Joel- Something else I just thought of- you mentioned that for you part of the thrill is interacting negatively with people. I call that "griefing" if I don't agree to it. And in your fanciful example where you make my life hell by attacking my gang, your conclusion is false- you suggest that you'd whup on me, which I don't argue with, but then you suggest that my friends would whup on you in return, making you think that maybe it wasn't worth it. Well, I hate to put it this way, but I don't think my friends would stand a chance against you, either- you would whup them, too. So now what's my recourse? So there's the flaw with that argument. If you aren't good at PvP, you have no recourse against those that are. At least in the mythical world of fully open PvP. PvP in this game is a MULTITUDE of things.  People are focusing on their precious scouts and time being wasted.  This is a significant but small part to it. Some other things that are basically PvP (as defined by ME competition and reactionary forces between players). No particular order 1.  Selling for lower prices than someone else. 2.  Buying stuff then putting it up at higher prices. 3.  Market hoging/sniping 4.  Culling NPCs before others can 5.  Making a ton of money to by a sponsorship to make another ton of money to sell even more rare stuff to make another ton of money till everyone is in AWE. 6.  Slaying people red in town events- to simple racing. 7.  Intercepting squads 8.  Attacking open PvP camps (or mutual fighting no open PvP camps - but it doesn't happen) 9.  Letting a team mate on a group scout be closer to the enemy so he gets roasted instead of you. 10. Joining any town event and not truceing. 11.  Auctioning items for cheaper than a current running auction. 12 Playing stink bid games at auction/reserve bids etc etc. 13. Dismembering another players reputation in the lobby or on forums (yes this is not "allowed" but still done, none-the-less). 14.  Joining SCL 15.  Creating an event for people to join for prizes and then killing them gleefully in that event. 16.  Calling bounty hunters on someone(I mean that is probably what should get the bitching). 17.  Joining someone's camp then turncoating on them sabotaging gangers and CR and MR and whatever you can. 18.  19.20.21 a multitude more if I care to stay up all night. So you see it is a complete ANATHEMA to me why intercepting these precious scout is SO HEINOUS a CRIME to engage in, when all these things we willingly or un-willingly have in this game.  Perhaps it is, whackamole addicts are the worst on the planet. To answer your question Triad, how you can beat me.  I WILL Answer it AFTER BL/FL are perm open PvP intercepts.  Not before.  I have bargained this.  You will have at least my knowledge of all things PEEVEEPEE.  Gangers you will see, are very secondary and equipment is nearly balanced. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Apr 6, 2011, 3:28 am

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 Longo said: On a scale of 1-10, how is your 'Quan" this evening?  You just about got me in Paintball that was impressive. didn't see that coming. Edit: 6 i guess, I like them ped combat leagues. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Apr 6, 2011, 3:29 am Last edited Apr 6, 2011, 3:29 am by Joel Autobaun

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