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Spec caps

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,513 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 Got more Assasin shooters that can hole a quarter at 500m than sand roaches in your trenchcoat. DO WE NEED SPEC CAPS ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Aug 2, 2011, 9:02 am

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 we need the other sniper nerf back, but with some tweeking.... ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted Aug 2, 2011, 2:19 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Most specs have diminishing returns. Sniper is a problem in itself, yes. But you know what happened when we tried to fix it a few months ago.. (we ended up with chainsaws instead). ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Aug 2, 2011, 2:48 pm

shama Shamas Rammers Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 110 Joined: Apr 1, 2011 I keep hearing about sniper, and the fix/nerf and the subsequent backtrack ... but I was very new when that change came in so didn't really pay much notice to it. One of the problems I have as a new player is that the information on specialisations is pretty damn vague with no numbers or concrete information given. This makes it hard to decide what kind of specialisation I will aim for. As an example, the following specialisations all state they increase accuracy: machine guns, heavy weapons, ballistic prediction, rocketeer, moving targets, sniper and courage under fire. But none say by how much. Most of these only increase accuracy under particular conditions, or for particular weapons, whereas sniper just says 'for all weapons'. This would make it a no-brainer to take, and makes me wonder why you'd ever go for machine guns, heavy weapons, ballistics or rocketeer as it seems to cover all those weapons too ... ... is this true? Is this why the RC tried to make a change to it? As it stands now it seems like the only accuracy spec worth taking - which means it must be broken in its current implementation ......................... vet wv Posted Aug 2, 2011, 2:49 pm

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 Bravo! ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted Aug 2, 2011, 2:53 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Shama, whenever I see your avatar I can't help seeing you as an evil version of goatstarer - this is quite disturbing ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Aug 2, 2011, 3:03 pm

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 *sam* said: Most specs have diminishing returns. Sniper is a problem in itself, yes. But you know what happened when we tried to fix it a few months ago.. (we ended up with chainsaws instead). LOL fix it again, maybe we can get tripod machine guns! ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Aug 2, 2011, 3:04 pm

shama Shamas Rammers Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 110 Joined: Apr 1, 2011 *sam* said: Most specs have diminishing returns. Sniper is a problem in itself, yes. But you know what happened when we tried to fix it a few months ago.. (we ended up with chainsaws instead). I'm guessing part of the outcry of trying to make a fix is that it took people a long time to get to sniper 2 or 3, and with a rule change they consider it 'wasted time' ... and if they'd known the new rules they would have gone for different specs. I don't know if it is possible in DW, but if it isn't possible then you should definitely look into it, and that is providing free 're-specs' whenever you make big tweaks to a specialisation. This would allow people to reset the specs on a character and spend the points afresh. Nearly every MMO has these problems and has to continuously re-address and re-balance, and allowing the players to re-spec at least removes some of their pain, whether they agree with the change or not ......................... vet wv Posted Aug 2, 2011, 3:05 pm

shama Shamas Rammers Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 110 Joined: Apr 1, 2011 *sam* said: Shama, whenever I see your avatar I can't help seeing you as an evil version of goatstarer - this is quite disturbing  Hear me roar ... ......................... vet wv Posted Aug 2, 2011, 3:05 pm

Juris Hessians Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: Sep 16, 2010 Yep, most people seemed to agree sniper was broken but the 'fix' caused an outcry by not allowing re-speccing old gangers. My idea for re-speccing was to allow people to re-spec at any training facility just like rehab - swap one spec a week in place of the training hit. This would also help new players who chose stupid specs. ......................... vet wv pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 race1 zom pvp2 deathrce1 pvp3 combat1 Posted Aug 2, 2011, 5:26 pm

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 My personal beef with the sniper "fix" was it transferred uber weapon status from car cannons to rocket launchers. It fixed nothing. I will admit that is slightly more balanced than what we have now though. If everyone really prefers that, go for it, I love rocket launchers. I'm staying out of spec balancing talk from now on. Cause I got blamed for being the goat in that one. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Aug 2, 2011, 5:29 pm

shama Shamas Rammers Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 110 Joined: Apr 1, 2011 Juris said: My idea for re-speccing was to allow people to re-spec at any training facility just like rehab - swap one spec a week in place of the training hit.  This would also help new players who chose stupid specs. Yeah some games allow you to respec at any time, for a cost, which does allow experimentation and 'trying out new things'. Also helps protect newbies who choose a spec most people consider useless at low levels, for example. Also means you can change your specs as you progress. But specifically what I was talking about was a free and complete respec when major gameplay changes take place. So irrespective of if there is a normal (costly and/or slow) way of respec'ing during the course of a game, at certain times every character gets a freebie. Just because some changes are so big that it would be unfair to not allow people the option to choose a different spec. From my short time here I think it might lessen the outcry whenever major changes are proposed, and allow Sam to rebalance things without having to worry about that outcry so much. ......................... vet wv Posted Aug 2, 2011, 8:42 pm

Alec Burke Overlanders Autodueller Renegade Group: Members Posts: 480 Joined: Sep 5, 2010 As I recall, Sam said a respec for the sniper nerf was going to be considered once the correct level of the nerfing was determined, but it never got to that point because there was too much complaining about sniper being nerfed at all. Really, until a fix has been fully implemented, how could one know if they would want to respec a ganger or not? ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp2 Posted Aug 2, 2011, 8:50 pm

*Ninesticks* The Wombles Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 3,371 Joined: Apr 11, 2008 Let's be clear about the change that was. It reduced the amount of bonus certain weapons got from the sniper spec. It never entirely removed it, far from it. Even with the residual bonus left players were complaining that the affected weapons were too greatly affected. Now if they had re-specced they would have lost that entirely, nor would any re-specs they could have taken under gunnery/handgunnery improved their chances to hit with the affected weapons. Of course, Joel may have a point about it just making RLs the new uber weapon. Though even now RLs are still a very potent weapon in the hands of a suitably specced gunner (but that is not a total defence I will admit). Perhaps as others suggested at the time, the only real solution is to sit down and look at all the weapon specs again. This would of course need to allow a complete re-spec for everybody, would probably introduce other imbalances and may have a significant effect on the performance of cross trained crew (which is a different argument all together) - not to mention work load for Sam. If someone can come up with a belter of a solution, I would love to read it, discuss it and champion it. Preferably without all the histrionics this time. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp4 community pvp20,1,0 Posted Aug 2, 2011, 9:01 pm

FireFly Anarcho-Pumpkin Privateers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 5,468 Joined: Mar 3, 2008 The only way to balance a spec like sniper is to remove sniper, alternatively work sniper into specs like machine-gunner and rocketeer. You cant really modify something broken at the base level to work just like that. If you want something done right, you cant rush it... We all know how the last try went... and I dare say some of us predicted it ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn deathrceL1 elmsautumn pvp1 pvp2 sssc raceL1 e2g combatL1 santa1 pvp3 gwextrav ww circuit32,18,0 Posted Aug 2, 2011, 9:20 pm Last edited Aug 2, 2011, 9:21 pm by FireFly

Crazy AL Street Pizza Darkwind Guru Merchants Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,228 Joined: Feb 14, 2008 I say we keep all of the accuracy bonuses that every other spec gives to a given weapon and Sniper on improves on the other specs by providing an additional bonus to accuracy that the primary weapon spec gives. Example: Without Heavy Weapons, Rocketeer etc. Sniper would not provide any bonus to accuracy. With Heavy Weapons, Sniper would improve the Heavy Weapons Accuracy bonus. With Rocketeer, Sniper would improve the Rocketeer accuracy bonus. First Sniper spec would increase primary weapon spec by say 50%, 2nd sniper spec say by 25%, then 10%. This way Sniper would not affect any and all weapons, only the weapons with which the player already had specialisms in when he took sniper. ......................... vet wv zom pvp1 ped1 Posted Aug 2, 2011, 9:33 pm

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 ARRRG....cannot stay out of it... Sorry Al, good try but terrible actually. Sniper is a gunnery spec. You just split the gunnery specs while allowing large guns even better xtraining with sniper. Ok look: Sniper gone - introduce "Rifle spec". Allow respec only for snipers. Rifles/CR/HCR - same/similar bonus as heavy weapons give CC and TG and ATG. Laserfire - gives accuracy bonus(equal to bonus heavyweapons/rifle spec /etc and Rocketry would give). To be clear - Lasers actually are going to be worse after no sniper spec, this just gives an equivalent accuracy bonus(like heavy weapons or rocketry) for the weapon spec. Add SubMG to Machine gun spec. Add misc weaps spec (Fletchette/shotgun/VS/crossbow/whatever). Bonus points(not as dire a situation as sniper, and only my opinion): Rapid shot needs a nerf. DD needs a nerf. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Aug 2, 2011, 9:41 pm Last edited Aug 2, 2011, 9:48 pm by Joel Autobaun

shama Shamas Rammers Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 110 Joined: Apr 1, 2011 See I'm not 100% clear on the calculations that take place to work out if a shot hits, so the following may be just not possible: Sniper sounds like it should increase your chance at hitting at range, not just a blanket increase to accuracy across the board. If your accuracy with a weapon does drop off with range then the sniper spec could be used to push that drop-off range further out. So it doesn't increase your base accuracy (that's what the weapon specific specs do) it instead pushes out the range to which your accuracy applies. So as an example, say you have a 50% chance of hitting up until 80m, and then your accuracy starts to get worse. Sniper 1 would push that to 90m. As I say, my assumption is that targeting currently has the concept of a range beyond which your base accuracy drops off - but this may be complete bollocks. ......................... vet wv Posted Aug 2, 2011, 9:45 pm

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 shama said: See I'm not 100% clear on the calculations that take place to work out if a shot hits, so the following may be just not possible: Sniper sounds like it should increase your chance at hitting at range, not just a blanket increase to accuracy across the board. If your accuracy with a weapon does drop off with range then the sniper spec could be used to push that drop-off range further out. So it doesn't increase your base accuracy (that's what the weapon specific specs do) it instead pushes out the range to which your accuracy applies. So as an example, say you have a 50% chance of hitting up until 80m, and then your accuracy starts to get worse. Sniper 1 would push that to 90m. As I say, my assumption is that targeting currently has the concept of a range beyond which your base accuracy drops off - but this may be complete bollocks. Exactly what is does.  Makes sense but overpowered for a ####ton of reasons about how the game is played. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Aug 2, 2011, 9:50 pm

shama Shamas Rammers Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 110 Joined: Apr 1, 2011 Joel Autobaun said: Exactly what is does.  Makes sense but overpowered for a ####ton of reasons about how the game is played. Oh ok, so 2 drivers with same gunnery skill sitting within 'normal' range will hit with the same probability even if one has sniper spec? All that sniper spec does is mean you can hit them further out? The description of sniper spec isn't very clear: it just talks about increasing accuracy of all weapons, not pushing out the max range. [slinks into background again] ......................... vet wv Posted Aug 2, 2011, 10:03 pm

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