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I don't like veiled threats.

AugustusC Caesars Ghosts Sunday Driver Mutants Faction Group: Members Posts: 58 Joined: May 3, 2012 For starters, let me apologize for bringing a PM to the public. But I learned a long time ago that when my temper starts warming up I want witness around. If only to keep myself restrained enough to not cross any major lines. That said, on to my issue.... Quote: no where in the game are there any rules posted saying you can not operate more then 16 squads, in that fact, there is no cheating occuring. This is just ongoing bull#### cause people have been trying to get me banned since day one simply cause they dont like me. Many have also been warned about legal proceedings for whats called cyber bullying which can  result in the defendant having their internet canceled and their computers confiscated First. The bit about there being "no where in the game rules" is BS. The fact that the list of towns you can create a new squad in disappears when you get to 16 isn't enough of a clue? How about the big letters "A gang cannot own more than 16 squads." Now, to what I'm actually ticked about. The part in bold I take as a (thinly) veiled threat. I added my voice to those complaining about someone circumventing the rules, and get threatened with "legal proceedings". Juan, You bent/broke the rules and got called on it. Man up. I can bend logic too.. it goes like this... Your threat of "legal proceedings" as a way of trying to shut up those who spoke against your actions could be viewed as "bullying". Maybe you should be afraid of "legal proceedings" too  Grrrrr..... Ok. Vent complete. ......................... vet wv gateautumn pvp5 ped1 sssc paintball elmsautumn semiprocombat ped2 northernsummer slay2013 e2g0,1,1 Posted Aug 1, 2012, 4:26 am

JuaN VaLDeZ Frontline Assembly Darkwind Guru Merchants Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 512 Joined: Mar 27, 2010 Telling someone you willtake legal action when it is warranted and available is not a threat. It is called justice. It also does not say you can not have more then 16 squads, it said you can not create more then 16 squads. theres a difference. Was I playing semantics? It's a game, rules are semantics. Furthermore this is a resolved issue, sam and I resolved it. He said it went on enough and locked the thread. now your trying to get the discussion reopened. Added note to Augustus, I'm sorry if you took this as a threat, I don't see how you could since it wasn't you that I waa accusing of cyber bullying. it says MANY HAVE which does not imply you. ......................... vet wv zom deathrceL1 Posted Aug 1, 2012, 4:43 am Last edited Aug 1, 2012, 5:04 am by JuaN VaLDeZ

Fifth Fifth Legion Autodueller Renegade Group: Members Posts: 480 Joined: Jan 3, 2010 I think the solution for this, FOR BOTH SIDES is to take a deep breath and repeat after me: It is only a game. Repeat until you get some perspective. ......................... vet wv Posted Aug 1, 2012, 4:56 am

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Thanks Fifth. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Aug 1, 2012, 8:26 am

Serephe Collision Force Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,496 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 It's just a game that I've put several hundred dollars and several thousand hours into. Of course, I could have spent a lot less time and simply abused any exploit I came across, simply stopping when finally publicly outed after more than a year... and keeping all my ill-gotten skill gains. But hey, maybe it's just ME that believes in keeping fairness in a multiplayer online game. I don't blame Sam, he lacks time. I don't even blame Juan, if it wasn't him then it would be someone else and I've brought things up with others before. Of course most of them didn't realise they were doing something wrong and stopped. Without clear rules, and people with the power to enforce them, an online game is only as good as the worst elements of its community. ......................... vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0 Posted Aug 1, 2012, 10:15 am

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Sere, I have been quite explicit this time that Juan must not break the 16 squad limit. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Aug 1, 2012, 10:25 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 and his multiple accounts? and all his other cheating and attempts to break the game? you should not have to be 'explicit' about stopping people cheating... it is implicit.. and he is about as trustworthy as News International. using multiple accounts to kill other peoples characters could be seen as cyber bullying... I'm not saying it is.... actually I am.. it is. And sending messages like that to people is cyber bullying. stuff it.,.. he is a menace.. he should have been banned years ago.. other people have been banned for less that what he has done to date (god knows what he will do in the future). Promises of good behaviour from a serial cheat are worth absolutely diddly squat. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Aug 1, 2012, 11:04 am Last edited Aug 1, 2012, 11:09 am by goat starer

JuaN VaLDeZ Frontline Assembly Darkwind Guru Merchants Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 512 Joined: Mar 27, 2010 goat starer said: using multiple accounts to kill other peoples characters Wow when did this happen... really you got me laughing pretty hard now ......................... vet wv zom deathrceL1 Posted Aug 1, 2012, 11:58 am

*DoubleTap* The Ghosts Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 895 Joined: Jul 13, 2007 Juan, are you a lawyer? Or do you have a lawyer, either on retainer or hired currently? ......................... vet marshal wv Posted Aug 1, 2012, 3:28 pm Last edited Aug 1, 2012, 4:16 pm by *DoubleTap*

Necrotech Vendetta Inc. Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,872 Joined: Jul 18, 2011 OK... gonna take deep breath, to do the right and honest thing, while holding a bag of cats. - Preamble - To Sam: I know we had a discussion about this very thing, that and the "mob mentality" for an infraction done by a person to be drummed out of the game. The thought being, if the precedent is set of a single person being a removed, how long before others say about wanting other people banned for ... whatever. I appreciate this view and understand it. There is a serious "but" in this situation. He has been removed before and then allowed back in, only to have more of the same abuse and gaming the system issues arise. This is a chronic situation, and he is most certainly wearing the "black hat" when doing so. Others do see this, and yes are dependant on you to see where precendent goes. I am all for finding bugs exploits, but in the respect of fixing them, to make the game more solid and alleviate issues. Again for the record, YES there *IS* a way to keep your vehicles from being stolen from Morgan after a successful bandit raid. I have given those details to JD Basher, and have a full write up for review with complete methodology. Cat out of the bag #1 Serephe said: It's just a game that I've put several hundred dollars and several thousand hours into. Of course, I could have spent a lot less time and simply abused any exploit I came across, simply stopping when finally publicly outed after more than a year... and keeping all my ill-gotten skill gains. But hey, maybe it's just ME that believes in keeping fairness in a multiplayer online game. I don't blame Sam, he lacks time. I don't even blame Juan, if it wasn't him then it would be someone else and I've brought things up with others before. Of course most of them didn't realise they were doing something wrong and stopped. Without clear rules, and people with the power to enforce them, an online game is only as good as the worst elements of its community. I am directly of like mind of this. I too have spent countless hours crafting and building my characters, and certainly not by some exploit or otherwise, but grinding through, selling that loot, losing those gangers, and getting those rides. What Juan does is, simply... invalidates the effort that myself and many "true" players of this game have put in. Does it make him a better player, No. Does it affect us? definitely.. directly and indirectly. Per your own words: "What about Exploits, Bug and Loopholes? Bug abuse, exploits and loopholes disrupt the game and damage the enjoyment of the game for everyone. Any effort to employ game bugs, exploits, loopholes, circumvent restrictions on game play or otherwise use non-game features and other programs for personal gain is not allowed. You are required to inform a Marshal and/or Sam through a private message if you find or witness another player abusing these undocumented/unintended features and should NOT discuss your findings with other players nor post any information about what you found or witnessed on the public forums, including the bugs forum. If you are caught using any bug, exploit, loophole or make any attempt to circumvent restrictions on game play for personal gain and fail to report it, sanctions may be applied to your account, up to and including being banned from the game. Please note that all financial actions and many other key activities are logged in your gang's "Recent Activities" record, so you will be unable to hide illegal activity from the developers." He does discuss this with other people, especially newer players, sets up own chat rooms to discuss these very things. Last known time this happen was when you were on vacation, and this behavior was observed directly by a Marshall who "dropped in" on the chat room. Cat out of the bag #2 Juan, point blank, you are extremely verbally abusive and with those who disagree with you. Please do not deny this fact. You do try to bully, coerce, or otherwise abuse those who do not share your opinion especially when you are shown to be in the wrong, or even disagree certain points with you. Quote: no where in the game are there any rules posted saying you can not operate more then 16 squads, in that fact, there is no cheating occuring. This is just ongoing bull#### cause people have been trying to get me banned since day one simply cause they dont like me. Many have also been warned about legal proceedings for whats called cyber bullying which can  result in the defendant having their internet canceled and their computers confiscated Yes, Juan it does specifically state about more than 16 squads, please do not plead ignorance. Yes Juan, I also received this behavior from you...  And it started with "Look at necro, leading the charge to get me banned" "jealous faget" This was just yesterday. Quote: First. The bit about there being "no where in the game rules" is BS. The fact that the list of towns you can create a new squad in disappears when you get to 16 isn't enough of a clue? How about the big letters "A gang cannot own more than 16 squads." Now, to what I'm actually ticked about. The part in bold I take as a (thinly) veiled threat. I added my voice to those complaining about someone circumventing the rules, and get threatened with "legal proceedings". "Examples of what constitutes cyberbullying include communications that seek to intimidate, control, manipulate, put down, falsely discredit, or humiliate the recipient. The actions are deliberate, repeated, and hostile behavior intended to harm another." Based on the above statement, then you are the highly guilty party in this respect Terms of service of also do apply was well. (THE REAL BIG) Cat out of the bag #3 goat starer said: and his multiple accounts? and all his other cheating and attempts to break the game? you should not have to be 'explicit' about stopping people cheating... it is implicit.. and he is about as trustworthy as News International. Promises of good behaviour from a serial cheat are worth absolutely diddly squat. Yes, he is a multiple offender, if not for one offense of gaming the system, then it is another. And yes, *sigh* He is using the multiple accounts, I know this to be a fact due to there are entities from which I belong that directly have profited from this behavior. For my part, you can consider me an accomplice after the fact. While I knew he had great many mechs to offer, I did not of the behavior until after he had implemented the other gangs for the Mechanic Rating. This behavior has been ongoing for about 3 months and largely affects 2 specific camps in a very meaningful way. It my belief, that goat starer is absolutely correct in the last line of his statement, Promises of good behavior *ARE* meaningless from this person, becuase he will active seek another means to "cheat" or "game" the system for his own personal profit, then will say "I'm sorry, never do it again!" only after he gets caught. In the meantime... damage has been done already. ......................... vet wv santa1 deathrceL1 pvp4 gwped raceL1 combatL1 paintladder pvp3 ped2 pvp5 semiprocombat circuit2 pvp1 pvp2 slay2013 gwextrav triangle1 Posted Aug 1, 2012, 4:03 pm Last edited Aug 1, 2012, 4:07 pm by Necrotech

*JeeTeeOh* Loose Cannons Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,796 Joined: Oct 18, 2010 Well said, Necro. +1 And just to clarify about this "cyber-bullying" crap. This is NOT a situation where the term applies. So ENOUGH with the ridiculous talk of legal action. That's right. Ridiculous. ......................... vet wv e2g marshal cont deathrceL1 sssc Posted Aug 1, 2012, 4:18 pm

Groove Champion The Groove Champions Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 4,813 Joined: Sep 16, 2008 Augustus: I hope you find this helpful. There is a difference between fairness and justice. Fairness is quite self-explanatory, while justice -under the guise of fairness- is an argument (or a threat) used by those who are smart enough to understand that lawyers can make them money but too stupid to understand the consequences of the actual prceedings. If that doesn't seem too clear, the fairness/justice opposition is akin to some bottom-feeding moron reading big words on a forum and using them later because he can count the number of syllables (wow! sounds impressive) while still completely misunderstanding the meaning of said words. I'd quote, but then I might get sued. ......................... vet combatL1 wv cont0,5,0 Posted Aug 1, 2012, 4:33 pm

FireFly Anarcho-Pumpkin Privateers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 5,468 Joined: Mar 3, 2008 What I cant understand is why everyone here is missing the hypocrisy of this whole thing, lol, as for as I'm concerned pretty much everyone here exploits in one way or another... Camping on top of hills the AI cant reach nor fire upon? A tactic apparently.(Exploiting Flawed AI) Luring the AI into ditches and waters for easy training with handguns? A tactic!.(Exploiting Flawed AI) Straining the AI out to drop unwanted enemy vehicles for an easy encounter? A Tactic!(Exploiting Flawed distance mechanics) Crouching peds on objects in handgun combat to null any incomming fire by making peds shoot at their own feet? A tactic! (Exploiting flawed LoS/Cover mechanics) Going offtrack to take a risky shortcut in a leauge race? A daring move! (exploiting flawed checkpointing) Retargeting during the firing phase for a popshot? I see that one used more often that I'd expect with such an anti exploit community we have here. (But it's fine cause game mechanics allow it?) Jumping in and out of a vehicle to break ped targeting while retaining your own to kill Joel's ped in that christmas event? Actually I've seen this one used in the SCL quite a few times to, Apparently not an exploit and very lol worthy to everyone watching. (Blatant exploiting at it's finest) What I'm saying is, I'm not really feeling the sincerity here, specially when it's about something as bloody trivial as squad limits. But feel free and point out to me how this is oh so very different. Personally I feel it's simply because you people dont like him, understandable to some degree, but exploits and loops are so common around here it's not even funny. ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn deathrceL1 elmsautumn pvp1 pvp2 sssc raceL1 e2g combatL1 santa1 pvp3 gwextrav ww circuit32,18,0 Posted Aug 1, 2012, 4:55 pm Last edited Aug 1, 2012, 4:59 pm by FireFly

Groove Champion The Groove Champions Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 4,813 Joined: Sep 16, 2008 This thread in particular is different because it's not about the squad limit. It's about a cheater who has openly declared his ability to hack the game if things don't go his way, who is threatening legal action over a comment that is well within the scope of his own rantings. ......................... vet combatL1 wv cont0,5,0 Posted Aug 1, 2012, 5:01 pm Last edited Aug 1, 2012, 5:08 pm by Groove Champion

Fifth Fifth Legion Autodueller Renegade Group: Members Posts: 480 Joined: Jan 3, 2010 To Everyone in the thread: I'm going to ask you to do something. Turn off the computer, go outside, under the open sky, and think about this: There are seven billion (7000000000) people on this little blue dot, and you are part of a privileged minority with enough money, infrastructure, and free time to be able to spend time and money on fictitious characters driving fictitious cars with fictitious weapons around a fictitious wasteland. Those characters, cars, weapons, wasteland... do not matter. We all love the game, we all love Sam for spending so much time and effort on it, but in the end, it really does. Not. Matter. Sam, Marshals, can this thread be locked before the threats start flying again? And a little suggestion for future reference: If you get a threatening/bullying message from another player, I would suggest forwarding the message to Sam and/or Marshals, privately, so they can deal with it without creating a public argument/flamewar situation like this thread. But that's just me. If you need me, I'll be outside listening to the mockingbirds. ......................... vet wv Posted Aug 1, 2012, 5:17 pm Last edited Aug 1, 2012, 5:18 pm by Fifth

*JeeTeeOh* Loose Cannons Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,796 Joined: Oct 18, 2010 FireFly said: What I cant understand is why everyone here is missing the hypocrisy of this whole thing, lol, as for as I'm concerned pretty much everyone here exploits in one way or another... Camping on top of hills the AI cant reach nor fire upon? A tactic apparently.(Exploiting Flawed AI) Luring the AI into ditches and waters for easy training with handguns? A tactic!.(Exploiting Flawed AI) Straining the AI out to drop unwanted enemy vehicles for an easy encounter? A Tactic!(Exploiting Flawed distance mechanics) Crouching peds on objects in handgun combat to null any incomming fire by making peds shoot at their own feet? A tactic! (Exploiting flawed LoS/Cover mechanics) Going offtrack to take a risky shortcut in a leauge race? A daring move! (exploiting flawed checkpointing) Retargeting during the firing phase for a popshot? I see that one used more often that I'd expect with such an anti exploit community we have here. (But it's fine cause game mechanics allow it?) Jumping in and out of a vehicle to break ped targeting while retaining your own to kill Joel's ped in that christmas event? Actually I've seen this one used in the SCL quite a few times to, Apparently not an exploit and very lol worthy to everyone watching. (Blatant exploiting at it's finest) What I'm saying is, I'm not really feeling the sincerity here, specially when it's about something as bloody trivial as squad limits. But feel free and point out to me how this is oh so very different. Personally I feel it's simply because you people dont like him, understandable to some degree, but exploits and loops are so common around here it's not even funny. WooHOOOO I do none of those things! Probably why my gang consistently sucks. Huh. The game works if you play it. Maybe all you cheaters should try it sometime.  Doesn't change my stance on the Juan matter one little bit. ......................... vet wv e2g marshal cont deathrceL1 sssc Posted Aug 1, 2012, 5:17 pm

FireFly Anarcho-Pumpkin Privateers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 5,468 Joined: Mar 3, 2008 *JeeTeeOh* said: WooHOOOO I do none of those things! Probably why my gang consistently sucks. Huh. The game works if you play it. Maybe all you cheaters should try it sometime.  Doesn't change my stance on the Juan matter one little bit. Good on ya, you're in the minority. And It's perfectly understandable why people don't like Juan, he's got the unfortunate combination of doing what a lot of people already did and having a... well, pretty off putting personality. But, it's also clear as day that the only reason people get so upset over this is his personality, they are perfectly fine to let their friends and other vets slide when pulling exploit stunts like some of the ones I listed earlier. Hence, why I've never been bothered to comment on this #### before, because it's downright ridiculous. And really fifth, I'd rather they don't lock this as I'd like some answers to what I said earlier and currently the thread is not abusive nor offensive in that regard, if they do, I'd just copy paste my post over as it's a legitimate thing to state. ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn deathrceL1 elmsautumn pvp1 pvp2 sssc raceL1 e2g combatL1 santa1 pvp3 gwextrav ww circuit32,18,0 Posted Aug 1, 2012, 5:21 pm Last edited Aug 1, 2012, 5:23 pm by FireFly

*Snipe* Renshai Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 581 Joined: Aug 31, 2009 FireFly said: Camping on top of hills the AI cant reach nor fire upon? A tactic apparently.(Exploiting Flawed AI) Luring the AI into ditches and waters for easy training with handguns? A tactic!.(Exploiting Flawed AI) Straining the AI out to drop unwanted enemy vehicles for an easy encounter? A Tactic!(Exploiting Flawed distance mechanics) Crouching peds on objects in handgun combat to null any incomming fire by making peds shoot at their own feet? A tactic! (Exploiting flawed LoS/Cover mechanics) Going offtrack to take a risky shortcut in a leauge race? A daring move! (exploiting flawed checkpointing) Retargeting during the firing phase for a popshot? I see that one used more often that I'd expect with such an anti exploit community we have here. (But it's fine cause game mechanics allow it?) Jumping in and out of a vehicle to break ped targeting while retaining your own to kill Joel's ped in that christmas event? Actually I've seen this one used in the SCL quite a few times to, Apparently not an exploit and very lol worthy to everyone watching. (Blatant exploiting at it's finest) Well, I can honestly say that the only one of these that I have done is snipe from a spot they cant get to.  These are exploits to varying degrees and yes - most people have their little "ways" of doing things.  Everyone tries to get the maximum out of the game while making sure their gangers are as safe as they can be.  Totally understandable given the permanency of ganger deaths.  Its the ones who do these all the time that show me which are the weak players.  To depend on faulty physics and game mechanics to further yourself on a game is cowardice to me.  But people do what they can get away with - if these "exploits" are too much of an issue, Sam would have made sure to change them. The fact that Juan has so many squads is for one specific purpose (i believe).  He uses them to find out a players cap in SCT to see if he/she is worth keeping and training.  Given that reason, I see the merits.  Is it cheating?  Im my mind - barely.  Does it take masses of time? absolutely.  Does it affect us?  Only as much as we let it.  The fact is he is not directly hurting others, just taking advantage of the sytem.  I personally dont play the game like that, but I dont play like most people.  I know who to have watching my back and who not to.  When I go out with certain people, I bring disposable cars and people because I know what to expect.  Anyone that will rely on flawed game mechanics to build their gang on is not worthy of being called my teammate.  ......................... vet wv gateautumn sssc santa1 raceL1 deathrceL1 marshal pvp2 zom combatL1 pvp52,6,2 Posted Aug 1, 2012, 5:22 pm

*Snipe* Renshai Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 581 Joined: Aug 31, 2009 But my real problem with this whole thread is that it got way more replies than it merits.........where were all of you when I was trying to trade away my FE? ......................... vet wv gateautumn sssc santa1 raceL1 deathrceL1 marshal pvp2 zom combatL1 pvp52,6,2 Posted Aug 1, 2012, 5:24 pm

FireFly Anarcho-Pumpkin Privateers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 5,468 Joined: Mar 3, 2008 Snipe said: FireFly said: Camping on top of hills the AI cant reach nor fire upon? A tactic apparently.(Exploiting Flawed AI) Luring the AI into ditches and waters for easy training with handguns? A tactic!.(Exploiting Flawed AI) Straining the AI out to drop unwanted enemy vehicles for an easy encounter? A Tactic!(Exploiting Flawed distance mechanics) Crouching peds on objects in handgun combat to null any incomming fire by making peds shoot at their own feet? A tactic! (Exploiting flawed LoS/Cover mechanics) Going offtrack to take a risky shortcut in a leauge race? A daring move! (exploiting flawed checkpointing) Retargeting during the firing phase for a popshot? I see that one used more often that I'd expect with such an anti exploit community we have here. (But it's fine cause game mechanics allow it?) Jumping in and out of a vehicle to break ped targeting while retaining your own to kill Joel's ped in that christmas event? Actually I've seen this one used in the SCL quite a few times to, Apparently not an exploit and very lol worthy to everyone watching. (Blatant exploiting at it's finest) Well, I can honestly say that the only one of these that I have done is snipe from a spot they cant get to.  These are exploits to varying degrees and yes - most people have their little "ways" of doing things.  Everyone tries to get the maximum out of the game while making sure their gangers are as safe as they can be.  Totally understandable given the permanency of ganger deaths.  Its the ones who do these all the time that show me which are the weak players.  To depend on faulty physics and game mechanics to further yourself on a game is cowardice to me.  But people do what they can get away with - if these "exploits" are too much of an issue, Sam would have made sure to change them. The fact that Juan has so many squads is for one specific purpose (i believe).  He uses them to find out a players cap in SCT to see if he/she is worth keeping and training.  Given that reason, I see the merits.  Is it cheating?  Im my mind - barely.  Does it take masses of time? absolutely.  Does it affect us?  Only as much as we let it.  The fact is he is not directly hurting others, just taking advantage of the sytem.  I personally dont play the game like that, but I dont play like most people.  I know who to have watching my back and who not to.  When I go out with certain people, I bring disposable cars and people because I know what to expect.  Anyone that will rely on flawed game mechanics to build their gang on is not worthy of being called my teammate.  I'd put a link to this post in my signature if this forum allowed them, heh, well said. And as for sam changing them, he's tried to improve the AI specifically several time and some of them are simply game engine quirks, otherwise I'm pretty sure he would have fixed the re-target during firing phase by now... ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn deathrceL1 elmsautumn pvp1 pvp2 sssc raceL1 e2g combatL1 santa1 pvp3 gwextrav ww circuit32,18,0 Posted Aug 1, 2012, 5:25 pm Last edited Aug 1, 2012, 5:27 pm by FireFly

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