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Spec Balancing Argument
*StCrispin*
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*REV* you are correct. It doesnt happen. Its merely an extreme example to illustrate the point. Someone mught try it now but there really isnt any benefit to it. Ive seen low CR high skill situations occur in arenas (not to me). And my experience with disparity has been in Paintball games so im not bringing this up out of any anguish over some loss. My losses are almost always from my own mistakes or from my gangers accidentally shooting eachother in the head.

The point of bringing this up isnt about me. The only wilderness PvP I have engaged in was a pretty close fight with no losses. I would have won if krak hadnt demoed. My Ped would have cored out Snipe's V8 then Melee demoed Checkers!

;)

I just hate when a new guy says to me that they are dissapointed that they subbed after their first lopsided PvP evperience. The weakness of this game is our low player population (IMO). Seeing it shrink is not what I want to see.

And dont say "worry about YOUR gang, not player pop or bringing in new players" because Sam has said in the past that we should all think about player retention and such.
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Posted Feb 9, 2013, 10:03 pm
*Rev. V*
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Yes, but he has ALSO said that he accepts the fact that 90% of the people who try DW will not stick around.

It's a hard game!
There's no resurrection, folks get old and kick off, get addicted to drugs, can die in any number of gruesome ways.

And that is what makes DW what it is.

Any new player having issues is MORE than welcome to bend the ear of a marshal about it.
That's our job.
If we think there really is an issue, it will be addressed, in one way or another.

But things WILL be lopsided at times, that's just the way it is.
Did the disappointed new player have any gangers slaughtered in that PVP instance you mentioned?
If not, then where is the issue?
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Posted Feb 9, 2013, 10:12 pm
*Rev. V*
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I really think I have THE solution though, but it will never happen.

Once a year, when this comes up, as it always does, Sam should say-

"Alright, enough. Free for all time. At 00:00:00 I am implementing a DW save point. The next 48 RL hours will not "exist". Interception chances have increased by 50%, and PVP flags will ALL be set to ON. After 48 hours, the server will reset and everything will be as it was. There are NO RULES for the next 48 hours, you all can do whatever the hell you want. Don't bother PMing me with anything other than a bug report. If you have an issue with someone not playing nice, take it up with a marshal. Unless it WAS a marshal who was being naughty. In that case, um, well, good luck with that...."

THEN folks could see how bad it COULD be (and it WOULD be BRUTAL, make no mistake about it...) , and realize that things aren't so bad right now after all!!!!

Hey, a guy can dream, right?
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Posted Feb 9, 2013, 10:33 pm
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*Rev. V* said:
"Alright, enough. Free for all time. At 00:00:00 I am implementing a DW save point. The next 48 RL hours will not "exist". Interception chances have increased by 50%, and PVP flags will ALL be set to ON. After 48 hours, the server will reset and everything will be as it was. There are NO RULES for the next 48 hours, you all can do whatever the hell you want. Don't bother PMing me with anything other than a bug report. If you have an issue with someone not playing nice, take it up with a marshal. Unless it WAS a marshal who was being naughty. In that case, um, well, good luck with that...."


Do this, but don't have a time limit on it. :D
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Posted Feb 9, 2013, 10:54 pm
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Only if you remove CR limits :cyclops:
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Posted Feb 9, 2013, 10:56 pm
*StCrispin*
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Generally someone consoles the disenchanted. Im sure those of us still here all went through it ourselves. At some point it simple becomes a "dont bring something unless you intend to lose it or him or whatever". Or you chalk it up as "oh well"

On a side note, Joel has the closest response to why the balancing of Spec is not involved. The added complication. Thank you Joel. I know we tend to not get along but I do value your insight and experience.

It is a refreshing counterpoint where most only involve "you suck" or "it wont happen" or some other non-quantifiable aspect.

For me, I dont wilderness PvP since I gain nothing from a sucess since anything my gang needs can be bought. I dont see any incentive to it.
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Posted Feb 9, 2013, 11:07 pm
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The only thing I've ever gone through was getting bored with the game from time to time.

Any other trials I've gone through have meant nothing because, simply, it is a game. :rolleyes:
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Posted Feb 9, 2013, 11:15 pm
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Classic.... just classic....  ROFLMAO

*Rev. V* said:
"Er, um...Excuse me, Lord Humongous? Look, I know this is the wasteland and all, and it's a rather harsh place, people dying, eating dog food from cans and all, but this? This all doesn't seem rather fair, your gang is quite overpowering, and quite frankly, you are driving people away... Any chance of you toning it down a bit?"

What do you think this guy is gonna say?
http://24.media.tumblr.com/8fe89972d28133cc8854bf4c2ba9d064/tumblr_mfcrt2mGsB1ql0ii0o1_500.png


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Posted Feb 9, 2013, 11:53 pm
*StCrispin*
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Why does he not have a tan? That little flower warlord would be busy looking for his "my little pony SPF15" before he caused enough trouble that anyone would ask him to balance his CR.

Plus I bet that mask gets hot.

Lord Humongus: anyone got a diet cola? It so hot. Plus im watching my weight. Do I look fat in this neck brace?
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Posted Feb 10, 2013, 12:18 am
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Hey! Don't scare them raiders away! Then we'll HAVE to PVP :D

Chrome, lepperd patterns, leather tights, bare nippels, iron masks and spikes and no buttock pants are always going to be HOT in post apo :D

They tried balancing Max you know... and that didn't work out quite right ;) Guess we need our little heroes. Just sucks being on the weaker end - Think the paint gun nerf happened back when I was in some BL camp and the Vault rolled over usses without even blinking an eye. I've always had a BPU set up in Tex for revenge, had a few gangers rot there up to 5-6 specs with no scouting. Although I don't even remember which bored vets did the crushing.
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Posted Feb 10, 2013, 1:41 pm
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Necrotech said:
Classic.... just classic....  ROFLMAO

*Rev. V* said:
"Er, um...Excuse me, Lord Humongous? Look, I know this is the wasteland and all, and it's a rather harsh place, people dying, eating dog food from cans and all, but this? This all doesn't seem rather fair, your gang is quite overpowering, and quite frankly, you are driving people away... Any chance of you toning it down a bit?"

What do you think this guy is gonna say?
http://24.media.tumblr.com/8fe89972d28133cc8854bf4c2ba9d064/tumblr_mfcrt2mGsB1ql0ii0o1_500.png




+1000

REV's above is the best comment I have seen in this game!
How about this for an 'out there' idea.  Everyone stop gassin, choose your  side and start getting on with it!
See Ya'll out there,
Cheers,
Brun.
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Posted Feb 10, 2013, 4:59 pm Last edited Feb 10, 2013, 5:15 pm by Brunwulf
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Quote:
I'll answer, because your comment that nothing needs to be balanced is bunk.  We all think CR should be balanced at the least.  Some of us think it should go further to take skills into account.  Understand that many do not want this, but don't throw out baseless "you don't need to balance anything" ideas when you don't really believe it.


Less balancing = a more realistic game environment. Lifes not fair. No one here is going to beat noobs down all day with uber skill guys (so I guess one could argue that we are all to nice to play a Post Apoc game). But if you want to get to the top, be prepared to learn what you need to.
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Posted Feb 10, 2013, 9:32 pm
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I do believe the spec bit has been answered.

You can't balance time invested between players. A player who has better characters invested TIME into them.

If a player decides to use one of these against a new player, he risks much more than his vehicles.

Take, for instance, a PVP battle I participated in against a camp. I was outgunned, outskilled, out-scouted. I expected to lose, but there was that small chance that I'd kill or maim a high-spec character.

I nearly did too, as one of the two players I was against got a little excited and outpaced his support. Luckily for him, he was able to reposition his vehicle.

They risked quite a bit of time invested. More time in ONE of their characters than all of the 'refugees' that I used. If I had managed to take one of them out (or even significantly injure one) they would have lost.

You can't balance that, though I understand the desire.
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Posted Feb 11, 2013, 5:34 pm
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Nicely put....for a guy in a mask! :p

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Posted Feb 11, 2013, 6:03 pm
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For what it's worth, CR balancing is one of the reasons PvP is stupid, imo... It's not quite the same as other games for sure but the fact that PvP encounters/wars are "Balanced" is part of the problem, the other part is that they are pointless per those other threads :)

I'm sure I'm not the only one here that played EVE online... That game sure has no cr balance, my corp, we got totally crushed by some Russian twits, good times, haha :rolleyes:


Balance EVERYTHING regarding events or balance Nothing, no middle ground will likely ever play well.
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Posted Feb 11, 2013, 6:15 pm Last edited Feb 11, 2013, 6:16 pm by FireFly
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theHumungous said:
Take, for instance, a PVP battle I participated in against a camp. I was outgunned, outskilled, out-scouted. I expected to lose, but there was that small chance that I'd kill or maim a high-spec character.


Exactly!

Take for instance the attack on the Alley yesterday.

It looked like Joel was going to win hands down through the whole event, UNTIL the last 5 rounds when a couple flashes with HFF manage to light his TT on fire, and he looses one of the most talented gangers i have ever seen. She was worth maybe 4 times the combined skills of the 4 noobs he killed. He lost, and the camp took some damage.
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Posted Feb 11, 2013, 6:30 pm Last edited Feb 11, 2013, 6:31 pm by *Tinker*
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Hmm... PvP... I've heard of that... it's pointless isn't it?

I had once considered gearing my normie gang up to be "raiders" friendly, and just attack every scout that went out.. "play the bad guy" as it were... but there's no bad guy place to "live"... all the towns are civ (so where these raider traders are going to and from boggled my nuts) and the camps are all so "disconnected" that you couldn't intercept FROM them...

If something were remedied for THIS first, then sure, I'd be all over PvP, and yard all the limits right out of it... when you run from me with your big tough scary SUV with Tail mounted weapons I WON'T follow you... I'll let you go... as it should be... and if you all park up on a hill, or in line, and MY CGLs start tearing your unit apart...(I don't really know why I'm spouting off like this... I just think I'm displeased with how the NPCs are treated... poor bastards....)
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Posted Feb 12, 2013, 3:52 am
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a Raider town is SS, is GW, is Texan, is BL, where the big shipments come in.

Camps are home base.
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Posted Feb 12, 2013, 4:38 am
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Blaer said:
Hmm... PvP... I've heard of that... it's pointless isn't it?

I had once considered gearing my normie gang up to be "raiders" friendly, and just attack every scout that went out.. "play the bad guy" as it were... but there's no bad guy place to "live"... all the towns are civ (so where these raider traders are going to and from boggled my nuts) and the camps are all so "disconnected" that you couldn't intercept FROM them...

If something were remedied for THIS first, then sure, I'd be all over PvP, and yard all the limits right out of it... when you run from me with your big tough scary SUV with Tail mounted weapons I WON'T follow you... I'll let you go... as it should be... and if you all park up on a hill, or in line, and MY CGLs start tearing your unit apart...(I don't really know why I'm spouting off like this... I just think I'm displeased with how the NPCs are treated... poor bastards....)


This I like.

Each player gets a roving camp.  Maybe even small teams of players share it.  But we dont live IN town.  If we choose to live in towns the cost is Horrendous!  Whats IRL costs?  $70 a night in a motel (or more) which means if I put my 53 gangers in public lodging I pay 3710 a night which is $111,300 a month (1 real life week) for lodging.  Food IRL, $15 a person per meal ($71,550 for my gang) at a midrange priced establishment.  more at better places or for higher ranked gangers.  So right there we are looking at nearly 200k per real week.  And we havent even looked at car storage or parking...

There is your incentive for piracy.  add to that the ability to capture enemy Peds that u KO in combat and torture information out of them (as happened in real pirate actions).  "When is the next food shipment coming into SS?  Talk!"

I actually thought thats what scav was.  Bad guy DW.  where we got to prey on normie DW.  Till I played it and found out it wasnt.
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Posted Feb 12, 2013, 6:32 am
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Roving camp, shmoving camp.....

Get a real camp.

I'm not kidding.

I'm not kidding soooo much that I will personally pony up a half million dollars as seed money to get this started.

Because I think a "raider" camp in the SS area for "bad guys" to scout from would be FLIPPING AWESOME!!!!!!!

And in my honest opinion, I think you might see other donations roll in from other folks too, simply because this kind of thing would make things interesting.

Running a camp is a PITA though.
Be aware of this.
I know, I did it for a while...

Anyway, the catch-
(You KNEW there was gonna be one!!!)

You guys get 3 RL months to get your feet under you while you have your PVP flag off.
After THAT, it HAS to be ON.

But if you guys can get a group together that actually wants to do this, as I said, I will throw money at this effort.

Just because.
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Posted Feb 12, 2013, 8:14 am Last edited Feb 12, 2013, 8:18 am by *Rev. V*
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