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2014: my latest thoughts for DW2

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,513 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 I just think turn based is the game. ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Oct 10, 2014, 7:38 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 *Bastille* said: I just think turn based is the game. turn based is THIS game... if all Sam was looking to do was re-skin DW1 then I would agree with you. But that can't be what it is about. We know the limited appeal of turn based. We know the fanatical devotion it creates in a small number of players. most of us love it. but Sam is talking about taking a sabbatical, working on a new game that occupies the same world and shares features. If that were me I would be rather keen to make it a) a commercial success on a scale rather larger than DW1 and b) new and interesting to develop. Im not sure a) can be done with a turn based game. b) only sam can comment on. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Oct 10, 2014, 9:55 am

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 I mostly want to abstain from DW2 discussion as I am completely against Real Time. and also completely against 1 car only. However, from the perspective of appealing to a broader audience, that's probably the way to go (Unfortunately). So any discussion from me, im afraid, would be little more than saying that I understand the reasons to do a Real Time single car game, but that I dislike the idea and would not play it for any reason other than curiosity. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Oct 10, 2014, 10:24 am

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,513 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 I think with unity you could have it turn based, add some b) and still make a) Im not sure how popular Space Hulk and Blood Bowl are, or what is it, x.com? Theres plenty of love for turn based games I would think. Mad Max is coming out next year. Thats big competition, massive hype and budget. Thats going to grab all the action fans. Real time (MMO or not) is going to be lumped in with that. Staying true to what the game is. Play to its strengths. Its uniqueness, its depth. (we all know CW, this is the game every CW player has ever wanted. Its not done elsewhere) hmmmm....Maybe thats something.... Make DW - future tech. What if the pocky clypse never happened? What if whats his face decided to strap an MG on the front of his car after all and cruise the highways looking for combat and thats how the death sports started. Steve might not like us stealing that idea but to be in that shiny world, with all the different toys that entails, could be fun. And you wouldn't be able to bag us laser users any more and we could have targetting lasers for our rockets and HiRes SWC for our VMGs.  I would think taking this game and making every bit of it better, up to date, would be the best way of doing it. - New graphics, new assets - Super particle effects. - Fully integrated economy - Fully integrated faction system - Stream line everything. The roots are there, just need a new cutting.  There is money to be had in this idea. Its on the verge of it now at the steam launch even though the game is near 10 years old and basically a one man band. Thats pretty friggin cool right there.  It didn't grab 100s of new players, but did find 20 - 40 or so new devotees. ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Oct 10, 2014, 10:33 am

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 I know what you're saying Bast! I did have some strong ideas for turn-based, which is what was underlying my previous thinking (from earlier this year) ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Oct 10, 2014, 10:59 am Last edited Oct 10, 2014, 11:00 am by *sam*

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 *Bastille* said: I think with unity you could have it turn based, add some b) and still make a) Im not sure how popular Space Hulk and Blood Bowl are, or what is it, x.com? Theres plenty of love for turn based games I would think. Mad Max is coming out next year. Thats big competition, massive hype and budget. Thats going to grab all the action fans. Real time (MMO or not) is going to be lumped in with that. Staying true to what the game is. Play to its strengths. Its uniqueness, its depth. (we all know CW, this is the game every CW player has ever wanted. Its not done elsewhere) hmmmm....Maybe thats something.... Make DW - future tech. What if the pocky clypse never happened? What if whats his face decided to strap an MG on the front of his car after all and cruise the highways looking for combat and thats how the death sports started. Steve might not like us stealing that idea but to be in that shiny world, with all the different toys that entails, could be fun. And you wouldn't be able to bag us laser users any more and we could have targetting lasers for our rockets and HiRes SWC for our VMGs.  I would think taking this game and making every bit of it better, up to date, would be the best way of doing it. - New graphics, new assets - Super particle effects. - Fully integrated economy - Fully integrated faction system - Stream line everything. The roots are there, just need a new cutting.  There is money to be had in this idea. Its on the verge of it now at the steam launch even though the game is near 10 years old and basically a one man band. Thats pretty friggin cool right there.  It didn't grab 100s of new players, but did find 20 - 40 or so new devotees. some groovy ideas in here... Death-racing born of post modern ennui an alternative Evan without the solar apocalypse I think the thing you are missing from your list is speed of play. This game does not match the visceral need for immediate gratification that others do... take a look at Warthunder. There are 'realistic' missions that take ages and short crazy dogfights. There are Darkwind numbers of players on the long haul events and tens of thousands of players on the short events. We are kidding ourselves if we think turn based can really do this. to be clear.... i might not play a non turn based game... im not looking for one and i don't need one (a faster game would be good but that is by the by). ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Oct 10, 2014, 11:22 am Last edited Oct 10, 2014, 11:42 am by goat starer

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,513 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 yeah, fair call. ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Oct 10, 2014, 11:53 am

*viKKing* Skulls And Bones Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,249 Joined: Oct 12, 2006 We can make turn based game very challenging. Only allowing 5 secs per vehicle to perform actions, for example. ......................... vet cont zom slay2013 marshal wv Posted Oct 10, 2014, 12:39 pm

*Bastille* Raging Scavengers Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 7,513 Joined: Mar 31, 2009 If you could have real time and lock target buttons for selected weapon if target in arc, view out gun port while targetting. weapon autofires in arc.... Starting to get crazy on the keys though. eg Steer while looking right and tabbing through targets. Hot key for each weapon port perhaps. then just hit the corresponding key to change targets on that port. Can control 1 car at a time in your squad, AI controls the rest while you are piloting 1. encourage team play. ......................... marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1 Posted Oct 10, 2014, 12:55 pm

JS Hitmen Trucking Inc -CI- Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,238 Joined: Jan 9, 2010 *Longo* said: So many ideas here. I like turn based. Real time would be a turn off to me. My once lightning reflexes now sit backstage to most 11 years olds, and I have no interest in these types of games. I usually only scout one car, but like to take a few on occasion. I like co-op play, but I do not want to be forced to do it or even encouraged to. When I feel like being social, I am. But sometimes on a rainy day, I just like to scout by myself and chat occasionally thru the lobby. All I got for now. This is essentially where I stand. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp3 pvp4 Posted Oct 10, 2014, 2:23 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 *Bastille* said: If you could have real time and lock target buttons for selected weapon if target in arc, view out gun port while targetting. weapon autofires in arc.... Starting to get crazy on the keys though. eg Steer while looking right and tabbing through targets. Hot key for each weapon port perhaps. then just hit the corresponding key to change targets on that port. Can control 1 car at a time in your squad, AI controls the rest while you are piloting 1. encourage team play. can you imagine the kerfuffle whenthe AI controlling your other cars kills all your characters? ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Oct 10, 2014, 2:25 pm

Tallus Fatalis Foedi Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 175 Joined: Aug 30, 2014 One thing I would be cautious about is the idea that a game must  'appeal to a broader audience' to be successful --  especially for a small-shop, indie game: the issue is, rather, to make the economics of a niche market work: get a big enough audience of people willing to pay enough, and let things grow organically from there. Also, I'd try to leverage linkages with other turn based systems and shops: Battlefront.com, ageod.com, matrix/Slitherine, and/or exodus wars' recent beta, or shenandoah software. (not to mention vassalengine.org) There is a fairly small but dedicated fan-base that buys turn-based computer games... and, notably, they tend to stick with the systems far longer than e.g. activision's fan base. ......................... vet wv ped2 Posted Oct 10, 2014, 7:31 pm Last edited Oct 10, 2014, 7:38 pm by Tallus

Bill Butcher Cutting The Butchers of Boozetown Racer Badlands Truckstop Faction Group: Members Posts: 202 Joined: Jun 15, 2014 I'm here because I was looking for a turn-based strategic game. When I found that Sam had created a game inspired by car wars, which I have played since it came out, it was icing on the cake. Sam, forget DW2. Improve DW1 and build an Ogre inspired game! ......................... vet wv Posted Oct 10, 2014, 8:03 pm

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 Mmmmm. Ogre. I modified Ogre and made a "Risk-Like" version where you could buy troops including Ogres and take over the world vs other players. Loved Ogre. Sam, what is the GOAL of going real-time? Is it because you want to appeal to a broader audience? Try out a different Market sector? Draw in a younger demographic? That's important to know before I could give any meaningful input beyond "I want this type of game" opinions. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Oct 10, 2014, 9:35 pm

*viKKing* Skulls And Bones Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,249 Joined: Oct 12, 2006 Bill Butcher Cutting said: Sam, forget DW2. Improve DW1 and build an Ogre inspired game! Sticking with DW1 means as well getting stuck with ol' Torque Engine limitations. Improving things also needs people to comply with changes and not complain about modifications. Switching to a new game would bring more changes, fixes on broken features and new features as well. I just found I was about to propose this exact kind of game roadwar 2000 as DW2. BTW: do we really need 3D graphics? wouldn't 2D be enough if it offers a larger world to explore and play with? ......................... vet cont zom slay2013 marshal wv Posted Oct 10, 2014, 9:45 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 *StCrispin* said: Mmmmm.  Ogre.  I modified Ogre and made a "Risk-Like" version where you could buy troops including Ogres and take over the world vs other players.  Loved Ogre. Sam, what is the GOAL of going real-time?  Is it because you want to appeal to a broader audience?  Try out a different Market sector?  Draw in a younger demographic?  That's important to know before I could give any meaningful input beyond "I want this type of game" opinions. Possibly all of these reasons,  Crispin. Fundamentally I love making games, and I think that a real time car combat game is worth exploring. I can see the argument for remaining turn based, but I can equally see the drawbacks. Yes, the game will be different to DW1 if it's realtime.  But that doesn't mean it can't be awesome too. I think it's a fallacy to say that going real time automatically puts me into an unwinnable competition with big game dev companies.  There are loads of successful realtime indie games. What matters is being *original* and this doesn't have to mean turn based. What I have in mind is a team based strategic action game. Initially focused on campaign play and on player-hosted leagues. Not an MMO and not an RTS. One car per player, driving is physically realistic and cars get damaged,  characters get injured and killed. To explain campaign play a bit: I mean in the style of Wing Commander or Combat Flight Simulator: I.e. a story to hang the action set-pieces on. To include 'official' campaigns and also ones created and shared by players ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Oct 11, 2014, 1:12 pm Last edited Oct 11, 2014, 1:15 pm by *sam*

PolyesterViking Hells Highwaymen Pedestrian Renegade Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: Aug 21, 2014 *sam* said: What I have in mind is a team based strategic action game. That sounds a lot like what Motorgun was going for before it fell apart. I can certainly get behind someone who has real respect for this genre going through with that idea, but Darkwind has shown me how interesting a mashup of car combat and turn-based strategy can be. I haven't played Darkwind for very long and I'm not as seasoned of a gamer as some (most) people here, but I can tell you I'd be disappointed if DW2 became something completely different before avenues that seem to have been skipped over are explored. I feel the ambitions of Darkwind have overstepped a critical point in the mingling of the genres in that being an MMO essentially puts a niche within a niche. Most of the problems I have with Darkwind are related to the fact that it's online and you can't breathe without being reminded you’re part of a large, complicated beast. Where I'm going with all this is I think a compacted, dense iteration of the franchise, based mainly on the combat system being utilized by a single player, would be an unfortunate idea to skip over. My dream would be to see DW2 as a single player mashup of XCOM, for the brutality and combat system, and Diablo or Torchlight, for the randomized loot and exploration (granted, the XCOM bits are already part of DW, really). Just for the hell of kicking and screaming, I’m going to make the argument that this could potentially gain more notoriety than DW, as the concepts I just mentioned are more familiar to a larger audience and may have the chance of interesting more people without overwhelming them instantly. ......................... vet wv Posted Oct 12, 2014, 3:03 am

Grimm Sykes Sand xbzyas Darkwind Guru Merchants Faction Group: Banned Posts: 1,372 Joined: Mar 14, 2010 If your going real time, why not something like the Wargame: series? http://www.wargame-rd.com/en/game-ab.html but we make our own cars and there's no aircraft. ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp4 Posted Oct 12, 2014, 2:05 pm

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *sam* said: To explain campaign play a bit: I mean in the style of Wing Commander or Combat Flight Simulator: I.e. a story to hang the action set-pieces on. I hate that type of game too.  Im a more open world" type player.  One of my biggest gripes about most games is the "Linked Set-Piece Missions" type campaign such as you find in Elven (turn bases favtasy wargame like Heroes of Might and Magic), or Baldurs Gate, Shadowrun Returns, Command & Conquer, Star Wars X-Wing, and a slew of others. Wing Commander was nice because if you lost it didn't make you refight the mission, it branced off onto the Loser-Tree but I still hated the Set-Piece nature of the missions. So if you ARE leaning towards linked Set-Piece missions PLEASE do a Branching Tree method where the player doesn't run into a "Replay Mission?" situation.  There should be multiple approaches to lead to whatever result is expected to progress or even a branch where you fail to achieve the goals while still moving the story to its conclusion in some logical way.  Maybe you failed to kill some boss character, and later this causes you immense harm but he dies anyway as part of the story. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Oct 12, 2014, 7:11 pm Last edited Oct 12, 2014, 8:13 pm by *StCrispin*

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 Grimm Sykes said: If your going real time, why not something like the Wargame: series? http://www.wargame-rd.com/en/game-ab.html but we make our own cars and there's no aircraft. I have all of these.  Pretty sweet but a little too fast paced for me to control my entire force at the same time.  I still consider it one of my favorites but really wish it was turn based like Steel Panthers.  (SP: WAW sucks so don't suggest it.  I also have SP: WWII and SP: MBT which are okay but nothing compared to the original SP III: Brigade Command) ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Oct 12, 2014, 7:13 pm

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