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2014: my latest thoughts for DW2
Iron Wraith
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Real-time?

In order to do all the things you should be doing, won't it force you to blob them up into generalised controls that mean all the detail is lost.

How will it work with say a driver and gunner combo? I'll have to split my attention between the two when in reality you get twice the activity with two participants.

This runs the risk of ending up like Zombie Driver. Don't get me wrong, I quite like Zombie Driver, or there is a Mexican themed combat driving game, but I haven't played either nearly as much as DW (and since I can't even remember the name of the Mexican themed one...).
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vet wv raceL1 deathrceL1

Posted Oct 13, 2014, 7:51 am
*Urban Decay*
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Real time always turns me off of RPG's and strategy, sad that so many people can't wait more then half a second to see themselves cause something to occur. Turn based strategy is always the best, when you make it real time you either dumb everything down too much, or force yourself to remember a ludicrous number of macro's until you have to break your keyboard like a star craft champion to play properly.

Real time games can be fun, but the world needs to remember turn based gaming is a legitimate thing. Otherwise you end up turning into....

http://i.imgur.com/owEVOMI.jpg
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vet wv marshal raceL1 deathrceL10,4,0

Posted Oct 13, 2014, 8:04 am
Racing Robbie
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I think perhaps calling it DW2 is confusing people ;)

If I read this right it’s going to be a completely new game, with a few tie-ins with DW1. Based on a story line and featuring real time events controlling a single car. This type has worked a solo play type of game previously – Wing Commander was fun for a while, and I loved X-Wing for a long time.

The success of this - I think – will be how you tie it together so that one player actions can affect the whole world and has knock on effects on other players. So if someone completes a mission where you had to kill a gang leader – this affects that whole gang, changes the dynamic of the world and that mission is pulled completely & another starts up have to kill a different gang leader.

One of the greatest strengths of DW1 is the freedom that players have to be what they want – like Joel trying to win every league/town event that he can as head of the DRM &#61514;.

So if possible make it so that players have choice as to what they want to be, like a good guys/bad guys, town racers or trader. This might make having a structure mission path too unworkable.

Could go down the route that on top of the story line missions, the system is set up to generate random missions – like if you are a bounty hunter you pull a mission where you have to go this place and kill X&Y gangers.

What would be cool if you could make X&Y below to another player’s gang and introduce PvP that way B)

Then for tougher missions set it up that a number of players have to work together in the event.

As a side thought and don’t know if this is where you want to head but….. perhaps an element of gang management could be introduced via a website, a bit like DW1 where gangs could trade, repair/build cars and such like via a website. This could include elements that affect the world again, like paying for hits on gangs

Oh eck – looks like I’m rewriting DW1 here
:rolleyes:
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vet wv northernsummer e2g raceL1 deathrceL1 slay2013 pvp3 ww pvp1 semiprocombat0,1,0

Posted Oct 13, 2014, 9:31 am
Iron Wraith
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Fundamentally driving a car (even without combat) is a multi-tasking activity using foot pedals, steering wheels, and other hand operated controls that are within easy reach of the steering wheel (or are supposed to be for setting up prior to driving - no changing CDs when the car is in motion naughty!)

The keyboard/mouse interface can handle a fraction of that in real time. If I am now having to buy special hardware to stand a chance of basic vehicle control, I am not that interested (and I suspect that writing support for the multi-various devices would complicate the development).

In turn based, I can spend a few seconds searching for the right key to activate my oil dropper. In a real combat car it would be on the dash in easy reach. If my turning is dome by hey them I have to take my fingers off the turn controls to activate a gun, in a real design I would be able to keep at least one hand on.

It is no coincidence that real single operator combat vehicles (i.e. fighters and some attack copters) have joysticks. Sadly driving a car with a joystick feels aesthetically wrong.

Put away the real-time, walk away from the real-time.
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vet wv raceL1 deathrceL1

Posted Oct 13, 2014, 11:48 am
Iron Wraith
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An earlier poster suggested a half-real time half turn based game.

Mechanisms to achieve this needn't be clunky.

Max Payne had bullet-time. Space Hulk had a mechnaism where freeze-game planning time was built up as you progressed in real time. That meant most of the time you were thinking on your feet (for example when walking down a corridor) to try to earn some freeze time so you could still pause the game for a limited time to issue turn based commands (such as sending firing orders). It also allowed control of multiple actors via their camera displays (shown at the top of your main HUD).

Wasteland 2 is normally in real-time but steps to turn based for combat. I think it is Unity based. It was also crowdfunded for Millions.
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vet wv raceL1 deathrceL1

Posted Oct 13, 2014, 12:00 pm
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Iron Wraith said:
An earlier poster suggested a half-real time half turn based game.

Mechanisms to achieve this needn't be clunky.

Max Payne had bullet-time. Space Hulk had a mechnaism where freeze-game planning time was built up as you progressed in real time.  That meant most of the time you were thinking on your feet (for example when walking down a corridor) to try to earn some freeze time so you could still pause the game for a limited time to issue turn based commands (such as sending firing orders).  It also allowed control of multiple actors via their camera displays (shown at the top of your main HUD).

Wasteland 2 is normally in real-time but steps to turn based for combat.  I think it is Unity based.  It was also crowdfunded for Millions.


in a sense final fantasy 7 did a swap to turn based for combat... RT for exploring.

i don't think it is a very comfortable thing for the most part though.

I think Rob is right. Calling it DW2 drives expectation among current players. I'm not sure why we would think Sam wants to make another game just for us though. I mean... he loves us like a benevolent God but all good gods are about converting the non believers rather than just bestowing boons on the faithful.
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vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2

Posted Oct 13, 2014, 12:35 pm
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Hey here’s an idea…….

DARKWIND 2 – INTO THE RUINS………………


Sorry – but had to be done

:p

(Racing Robbie now runs away and finds a big dark hole to hide in)
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vet wv northernsummer e2g raceL1 deathrceL1 slay2013 pvp3 ww pvp1 semiprocombat0,1,0

Posted Oct 13, 2014, 1:36 pm
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Hate to say it but it's hard to get input on making a real time game from a bunch of guys who hate real time games and love turn base.

Might be better to consider it as a WoW-Like MORPG (or as u mentions last year, a LOL-Like competitive game) rather than DW2 per se
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vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0

Posted Oct 14, 2014, 12:03 am
Iron Wraith
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Who said I hate real-time games? I like flight sims, 3rd person shootem-ups, top-down driving games etc.

I play most games as real-time as possible (I even turn around most travels here as quick as the system will allow).

I just don't think complex games that aspire to realism can be real-time unless the controls can be accessed in an appropriate time frame. For a gun shooting car game I think that is a big ask.

If the game is to be anything more than knee-jerk panic reaction in an impossibly cluttered control space then it needs some turn-based elements (or simple controls and/or simple environment - which moves it away from Sams other objectives).

As an example, real-time 3rd person shootem-ups:
Generally you only have a single weapon that you control (with some mechanism to cycle through them). Movement is generally via the WASD keys (which could be mapped to accelerator, brakes and steering. Most importantly however you only have 1 view. If the car is to have weapons on any other facing than front, you will also need other views.

You could fudge all this up with limited view cameras inset into the dashboard. You could force the car to be single seat, front gun muscle car, but that limits possibilities (and has been done before).

You could have remote gun stations where the AI just fires at whatever enemy crosses it's path (or shoots at the best target) and that might allow expansion into multi gunner vehicles.

The main problem though is that my vision is stereoscopic, when I drive I get a 3d world view and can judge positional information far better than I can in a 2D screen. Realistic driving physics will require enough information to be able to process it in real-time if the game is to be playable. Maybe Sam has plans for a 3d game?

If it is real-time it also needs to be down to my driving skill, not the skill of the character.

As long as I can upgrade the car in a realistic way (rather than by driving over power-ups - like some games), have a level of persistence so my actions have long term consequences (though I would prefer to be able to save the game at any point rather than be force to play an encounter out right then), and have it intuitive, playable and largely bug free, I will be happy. Real-time or Turn-based makes no odds.
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vet wv raceL1 deathrceL1

Posted Oct 14, 2014, 6:45 am
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Bill Butcher Cutting said:
Bill Butcher Cutting said:
Here's a few things I would like to see in DW2:
- the choice between RTS and TB decided by the players at combat launch (if given the choice, I will always pick TB ). Can this be achieved through an adjustable in-game slow motion/pause mechanism?
- the ability to field multiple cars
- a single client for character/gang/vehicle/squad/town/combat management with the ability to manage everything but combat from any browser.
- no lag between squad management and combat
- ability to manage components directly without going through a vehicle (can this be done now and I'm just missing it?)
- enhanced ped environment (characters from several gangs going on a 'dungeon' crawl; think a toned down old-school wasteland or multiplayer fallout environment)
- expanded world
- balanced specs
- no respawn whatsoever
- no pay to win

I'm sure there's more but this is what came to mind at the moment.


Here's more for the buffet of ideas:
- ability to reload completely from the loot screen
- have vehicle inventories be accurate in loot screen
- be able to view cargo space of each vehicle in combat client (know which vehicle have space for passengers during a loot car shuffle)
- in solo scouts, a single transaction to load all loot to the player's temporary area during the loot phase
- button in the loot screen to automatically load all of most valuable loot, in cars you have predesignated, according to the sell value of the town scouted from. The player can then review what's left. Saves time.
- save which gun, in a particular vehicle, a ganger normally uses
- less 100% cars and components. Equipment shouldn't be brand new but reused and repaired until unusable. Anything 'manufactured' should basically be rescavenged parts brought together at less than 100%. Anything at 100% should be a treasure in itself.


Here's another one to add to the top of the DW2 DW1 improvement wishlist:
- ability to move fuel between vehicles in a squad before splitting.
- drag and drop functionality for all objects with review and finalization buttons.
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vet wv

Posted Oct 16, 2014, 1:56 am
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*Racing Robbie* said:
Hey here’s an idea…….

DARKWIND 2 – INTO THE RUINS………………


Sorry – but had to be done

:p

(Racing Robbie now runs away and finds a big dark hole to hide in)


Right, its been decided!  :D
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marshal vet wv pvp4 zom cont pvp32,12,1

Posted Oct 16, 2014, 4:05 am
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what about real time, but you can flip a switch and it starts doing it turn based.
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vet wv pvp5 pvp4

Posted Oct 28, 2014, 12:22 am
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Probably too much work to create Grimm and it would probably result in a game with two sets of mechanics and playstyles - Bloodbowl tried to incorporate this idea with their Blitz mode in pretty simple d6 mechanics and a lot of it just crippled the original gameplay. :(

Some games almost pull it off, like the post-TotD X-Com games - but they were real-time based with a good pausing system rather than turn based to start with.

Unsure how much you follow other mmos *sam*, but auto assault did more-or-less what you propose, with a far more limited character/skill system than DW has though. It was mechanically excellent, open-world and had a slick UI, just limited in how you could develop your car and had one-car control. It was closed down mostly because it was managed by NCSoft (don't ask or I will rant on about their idiocity for ages, I still miss AA and Tabula Rasa).

There's also at least two existing games on Steam currently that are very similar gameplay wise to what you propose, with current-gen graphics. Stumbled into them while looking for Darkwind stuff, ironically.

Ultimately though, I'll stick to the online DW - single player only games need to be highly polished, interesting or praised to persuade me to even look at them. DW2 might manage this - however until there's a beta, demo or at least roadmap impossible to say. Odds are I'll still be on DW even after DW2 is either mastered or boring though.
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vet wv

Posted Nov 8, 2014, 1:21 pm Last edited Nov 8, 2014, 1:46 pm by Ryslock
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Quote:
- Make it a real-time multiplayer game, packaged initially as a stand-alone product containing a story-driven single-player campaign and a multiplayer (LAN-play) PvE campaign. But keep it as hardcore as possible rather than turning it into an arcade game: so, that includes armour per-side, characters who die rather than re-spawn, cars that get wrecked rather than re-spawn. Set in Evan, of course.


Quote:
To explain campaign play a bit: I mean in the style of Wing Commander or Combat Flight Simulator: I.e. a story to hang the action set-pieces on. To include 'official' campaigns and also ones created and shared by players


I think focusing on single player and a campaign mode doesn't really play to your strenghts (being a lone coder as opposed to content creation).

But I'd be interested in a post-apocalyptic roguelike co-op* vehicular combat game (ok you would have my interest at two of those OR post-apocalyptic anything), more Privateer than Wing Commander (I think, I've only played Privateer).

Harsh and unforgiving is what players expect from roguelike games - while having mechanics like that in a campaign that uses predesigned encounters is just frustrating (unless they're very well designed and have multiple approaches from stealth to misdirection to all out assault).

Relying on competitive multiplayer also has the risk of having the game just die out because there's no one to play with. I'm skeptical that AI controlled surrogates would work in a real-time game - DW1 feels like an exception in this case because it has a the persistent gameworld tied to the racing and because turn based racing/combat works differently on some level (but I can't articulate why exactly, maybe it's because it can be seen as more of a spectator sport).

Quote:
a scenario editor similar to DW:Tactical should be included (and a mechanism to share scenarios online). Player-generated content is a very powerful thing.


If it includes single player or player hosted servers then I'd like to see just overall modding support (adding new assets and code) over just gui tools or a level editor. Best examples for that working really well on Unity would be Kerbal Space Program and possibly Rimworld.

I've been messing around in Unity a bit too and it's pretty great.

Quote:
I think it's a fallacy to say that going real time automatically puts me into an unwinnable competition with big game dev companies.  There are loads of successful realtime indie games. What matters is being *original* and this doesn't have to mean turn based.

What I have in mind is a team based strategic action game. Initially focused on campaign play and on player-hosted leagues. Not an MMO and not an RTS. One car per player, driving is physically realistic and cars get damaged,  characters get injured and killed.


I think it's easier to overlook a lack of polish in turn-based games over real-time games. In action games the "feel" of things becomes more important and that's where I feel AAA games have spoiled a lot of players. Many indie games do manage to skirt this without being technically competent by using retro graphics, having a strong unique style or by not having combat as the main focus.

Can you make hitting a target and breaching a hull feel just as rewarding to me as reading a wall of text about the internal organ injuries and assorted gore I've just inflicted? There are of course a lot more audio and visual cues than this that need to be pretty much right for it to really click together. Tweaking all those things takes a lot of effort.

If you're passionate about getting these things right or have some creative way of solving them then I actually don't have a problem with it not being turn-based.

Maybe being ambiguous has made everyone imagine the worst possible way to do it because they're biased toward liking turn-based games overall? Do you have a clear view of how the real time combat would play and what would make it fun (overall pace, individual vs team skill, auto aim or manual aim, average duration of a match etc.)?

* I still want friendly fire in my coop games so I can backstab Xander.
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vet deathrce1 raceL1 race1 combat1 northernsummer gateautumn elmsautumn deathrceL1 semiprocombat wv cont

Posted Nov 13, 2014, 4:07 am
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Hi alo
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Posted Nov 13, 2014, 7:32 pm
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Change is bad, keep dw just as it is, except change it for the better but definately keep it the same and dont alter a thing except the bad things that must be altered no matter what the consquences. I feel very strongly that I dont mind either way if anything happens or not and I will fight to the very death to not have to argue in any way for or agaainst anything.

I hope that makes my position totally clear!
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Posted Nov 13, 2014, 8:41 pm
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*Bigspenner* said:
Change is bad, keep dw just as it is, except change it for the better but definately keep it the same and dont alter a thing except the bad things that must be altered no matter what the consquences. I feel very strongly that I dont mind either way if anything happens or not and I will fight to the very death to not have to argue in any way for or agaainst anything.

I hope that makes my position totally clear!


to be fair big that is the most coherent thing i have ever heard from you.
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Posted Nov 13, 2014, 10:04 pm
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First off, let me say that this genre of game is my favorite. I found DW about a year ago searching for a spiritual successor to Car Wars based Roadwar 2000. I LOVED the Roadwar 2000 style of game, but always found that the turn-based combat become overwhelmingly clunky whenever your gang had more than a half-dozen vehicles. I have tinkered with Unity and think it's the perfect engine to make this type of game with. So here is my 2 cents:

1. Make it REAL TIME, but with a strategy based feel. Most of the player's time will be spent outfitting their cars and gang-members and choosing default actions/formations etc. Allow for lots of customization of the vehicles, adding hard-points, armor, top-side handholds for crazy melee types to leap from etc.

2. The game camera should be far enough away to capture most of the cars driving around via AI with the player selecting vehicles and giving orders (ie. all focus one enemy vehicle/ attempt to disable vehicle/ attempt to BOARD vehicle). The ensuing chaos should be rewarding in its awesomeness of watching the physics and mad-max style destruction with some text-based(not too many) updates on major changes in the battle. A space-bar click may be able to focus the camera on the vehicles involved in the latest major update message.

3. All relevant information about car condition, gang-member condition, targeting arcs/ranges and chances to hit should be displayed in the overall view in an intuitive way, both tied to the vehicles in question and perhaps on a side or bottom bar. Vehicles should be selectable from the bar or directly from the camera to be given more specific orders. This way you could select a bunch of cars to attack while individually selecting one car and having it flee. All attacks, hits, etc should have animations and values displayed in this overall view.

4. Combat results should be persistent, a damaged vehicle with dead/dying npcs should be salvagable, dying npcs should be recruitable (or executed) <-could influence gang morale? Destroyed vehicles should become salvagable scrap-metal (valuable for upgrading/repairing vehicles).
Anything the character or npc gang cannot manage to limp away with should remain in location to be salvaged by others.

5. Treat ALL gang-members and NPCs with the SAME CODE. NPCs should be less-complicated when it comes to stats, skills etc. (some percentage for drive/shoot/melee) and MORE complicated when it comes to personality (empathic vs psychopathic), (courageous vs. cowardly), (selfish vs. group-minded). Give gang-members a morale metric that is based on combat outcomes and the Gang-leader's management style. Allow gang-members to become NPCs after a combat if it doesn't go as they like. (Hey, looks like we're all gonna die, I'm outta here....) Now that gang-member and the guys in his car just became NPCs. Taking an assault weapon away from a gang-member and giving him a knife and making him have to jump from a top-side position to take over cars should have some impact on how he feels about being in that gang. Some gang-members may feel like they were rewarded (psychotic courageous types) and others will feel slighted (empathic cowardly). Your ability to recruit NPCs should be based on a reputation system (do you execute everyone you defeat? psychopaths welcome..., do you patch-up defeated enemies and add them to your gang? hello empathic group-minded NPCs...)

I personally think that playing a game where the interactions between NPCs and players feels more genuine and has lasting impacts is fun. If my group gets completely slaughtered by an enemy NPC gang, but my survivors and cars are incorporated and perpetuate, I may have a chance to run into them again (and have to fight or recruit them) and there is some consolation that they live on in the world.

OK, I know it's a long post..... thoughts?
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vet

Posted Nov 18, 2014, 6:05 pm
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I wonder if real time with pause has been considered. It was perfect for Baldur's Gate but could you make it work with vehicles? Would give you time to manage who does what in the car.
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vet wv0,2,0

Posted Feb 18, 2015, 4:47 pm
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If you make a number 2 depends on alot of things i think.
Perma death and real time. would make a cry hard game where a simple clitch could cost you ur entire crew not something people would look forward to or rave about.
Wanna keep it simple if you wanna add in stuff like real time.

A number 2 would be great could make it a simple single player game getting from one part of the world that's being taken over by zombies to the next part of the world who's people are not being eaten. (along with all the other creepy's) and raiders ect.
Making it single player means you can make good NPC's they will need something charming about them. or something that stands out also means you can have bosses. should keep combat same, and getting away. BRUSH UP THE CAR'S make em look nice, also add in diffrent weapons if you can. (on board weapons) like the weapons now that are Inside the car and triggered with something on the inside of the car.
(Mounted weapons) - a weapon fixed on the car that someone has to control and fire it and has a better fire range arc (aka can swirl around on it like a turret) also have on board weapons like that. makes on board weapons better cuz your gangers are safe while they inside fireing but the mounted ones aient so protected but have a better view of what they can fire at and change targets alot easyer. also would like to see gangersfire weapons from the inside of the cars and stuff like you have a rifle and ur not fireing it out a window? in life and death you would fire a rifle out a window just for extra fire power and try and throw greandes at cars ect...as well as firing all the other stuff.

Sorry about spelling.
In a rush. anyways ill add more if anyones intrested in hearing any more.
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vet wv

Posted May 28, 2015, 9:33 am
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