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Change to remove travel-truce exploit
Racing Robbie
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OK I think people are jumping before they look here, and I for one would like a little clarity......

"A squad will only be able to perform one truce with non-trader opposition during any one journey legĦ¨

OK, so traders - you would truce with as many times as possible (especially if you have the tick in the truce with traders box) So this is going to affect the other side and you only will truce with one non-trader and the rest you'll have to play - I guess this means that the "Truce with Friendly FactionsĦ¨ becomes less important.

Ok firstly let's clarify what a journey leg is - I'm figuring that as I can get 3 encounters between Elms and SS that would class as 3 journey legs. Is that right?

But I don't know how many encounters I have been getting that I'm trucing in the background - are we talking about the ones where you get the message your encounter with a NPC has been auto-truced or are there ones that happen that we donĦ't even know about????

If it's the ones where we get the message, then I can't see this is going to make that much of a huge difference to me, as it's rare that I get more than one in a travel. ;)


The issues with Rep - I have to side with Goat here, it would be very rare that anyone would be friendly and trusted by all sides, I would go as far to suggest that to be able to achieve it you would have to be a renegade and side with no-one to stand any chance of it happening.

If you are aligned with a faction when there are always going to people who don't trust you on principle B)

The main problem here does appear to lie with the rep system and how it works. Agree that does seem daft that friendly factions would attack you but I would also suggest that the risk of friendly attack would be higher with certain factions, slavers and anarchists spring to mind, as there will be ones who always will try if they think they can get away with it.....

The multiple encounters with the same gang - why is this a fault? Why isn't it possible that if you get away from a gang and they come hunting you :D

Fight And Park - ok takes balls, and as long as the lorries are properly fitted out then not an issue, though I would of thought the AI Peds would like to try and capture them
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 9:41 am Last edited Oct 21, 2015, 9:43 am by Racing Robbie
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PvtParty said:
OK, here's one option to stop that... Rather than just CR/rep, use the value of the load to adjust the likelihood of an encounter. In a hostile environment, it is possible that friends will turn on friends if the payout is a large enough.



Value based on what? Fuel is only 21 a can in TX, thats not very valuable. even in gateway it's worth less then half what it's worth in SS. Doing this would be like turning the game upside down, where the harder texan area would be easier to get out of with fuel, and pulling into noobville up north would be the hardest thing.

How about this for a sensible suggestion...

Make everything cost the same in every town, it would defeat the purpose of a dynamic market system, but isn't that better then defeating the purpose of a faction system? I do agree, the change proposed would render the faction system pointless, we all may as well be trapped as renegades
Making everything cost the same in every town means there is no profit in moving goods, thus the exploit is removed. Maybe keep it dynamic, but as prices change they are still the same price in every town. with 13000 cans in SS market, there is no shortage on fuel to justify it costing 32 times more then in TX where only 10,000 cans are available.

Another idea that comes to mind is the civ and merchant guilds could charge a tax for importing too much to a specific town

Another thing the proposed change would do is render SF and FL camps useless money pits.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 10:01 am Last edited Oct 21, 2015, 10:13 am by Grimm Sykes
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*The X Man* said:
Splurs said:
Im no sea dog, however ever the pirates of old had a "code" if you wish where they wouldn't take other ships on the seas, because of the "greater goal" idea.

"The code is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules"
Splurs said:

Just because they are slavers/pirates doesn't make them stupid.

Slaughter their gang, loot their gear, then do a few favors for them, use HPs and they are back on your good side?? Those would be stupid pirates.


Ask any player who had been done wrong in that way by another player (Insert ash reference here) and see if they are buddies the following week... most likely, they are still enemies... as it should be.

There are way too many ways to quickly and easily regain good rep. This needs to stop. And never should you be on good terms with all factions... NEVER.


ya simple, like i said opposites should oppose. Forcing people to attack their preferred allies is just wrong.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 10:04 am
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Chances are I could've been a part of the problem here, as when my rep leveled off to positive-with-everyone I did a fair bit of running around in things that do. not. work.

1L lorry from EL to SS to BL with a mail stop at each. A few escorts with skeleton crews consisting of whatever cars I had lying around. An attempt at an SS->MO taxi with 1L Estates that went wrong when I found out that Appreciated is not always quite enough for a truce.

Personally I don't think being rep positive with all factions should be possible, but I also don't think we should eliminate the ability to secure safe passage through reputation. If you manage to get all the gangs between two areas to come to the common conclusion that they would really do better to find someone else to shoot at, cool. However, I don't think this should be possible everywhere at once, someone's always going to be upset. Further, just like with courier and escorts, I think all travels should have some form of effect on reputation. Perhaps gangs that know they let you off easy will start looking at you in a slightly more negative light.

Basically, what I'd like to see is being able to balance rep to make one travel... And then a guarantee that you're going to have your work cut out for you to do it again. I toyed with it, but determined it wasn't really worth it when I could just indiscriminately shoot baddies, make money, get loot, and actually play Darwkind... Instead of only playing when (and against who) I could "get away with it" to keep my rep intact.

And/or potentially a bounty system, where yep, they might like you, but you've got some REAAAALLY nice stuff there... But for the right price they'll forget you. Finding a way to determine this would be interesting, perhaps base it off of total squad bulk space + number of times you've paid a gang off to ignore you in the previous week? Obviously, if you did it once, you'll do it again. And again. And again. So of course the price would go up. Obviously if you're disliked or worse, they're still going to try to kill you though.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 11:04 am
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Racing Robbie said:

The multiple encounters with the same gang - why is this a fault? Why isn't it possible that if you get away from a gang and they come hunting you  :D


My only quibble with this is seeing the same enemy gangers a second time, but in fresh cars. I think it would be cool if they stuck with the same cars as the first encounter, complete with any damage previously suffered. After all, it's not as if we get the chance to change vehicles, or even do repairs*, between encounters.

* - Other than changing tyres/reloading weapons.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 12:30 pm
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Grimm Sykes said:
PvtParty said:
OK, here's one option to stop that... Rather than just CR/rep, use the value of the load to adjust the likelihood of an encounter. In a hostile environment, it is possible that friends will turn on friends if the payout is a large enough.



Value based on what? Fuel is only 21 a can in TX, thats not very valuable. even in gateway it's worth less then half what it's worth in SS. Doing this would be like turning the game upside down, where the harder texan area would be easier to get out of with fuel, and pulling into noobville up north would be the hardest thing.


If it made the system workable, use the highest price in Evan at that point in time. Then, fuel loads would still be attractive to any would-be assailants in/around Texan.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 12:32 pm
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Splurs said:
Quote:
it should obviously not be possible to be friends with every faction in this game unless you never chose to fight nd loot.... and even then if you are friendly with merchants or slavers it should bee impossible to friendly with reds.


I disagree, you can be friendly with them all, you hit the merchants for their goods, that you might sell off to the slavers, then to keep the merchants happy you go an kill a heap of pirates, and give their cars to the Reds. Each time you hit something you lose some rep, however each faction would look at the over all effect it has with the thinking of "Ok that gang took some of our cars and killed our gangers, but last week they MASSACRED our enemies, we can handle a few of ours killed if it means lots of theirs"

Quote:
certain factions should always have very 'loose' loyalties in any case. all the pirates and slavers should weigh the possible gains of taking a lorry from you against you not liking them.... you should never be able to guarantee a truce.. especially against the higher fame gangs.


This one I believe is truly wrong, as I said before the gang/faction leaders would weigh up the pros and cons of taking a few lorries vs their forces getting decimated, or you helping out the enemies. Im no sea dog, however ever the pirates of old had a "code" if you wish where they wouldn't take other ships on the seas, because of the "greater goal" idea.

Just because they are slavers/pirates doesn't make them stupid.


that make absolutley no sense at all. That is not how gangs work in the real world.. it not how ideologies work... what actually happens is people might use you but they would tke the first opprtunity to shaft you and steal your ####. Especially out in the wilderness where they can blame it on someone else and there will always be a fog of doubt.

Your analog with pirates is tenuous and entirelly anecdotal... its a myth. Pirate codes were drawn up for individual ships or groups of sailors... not for the whole of piratedom... you have been waching too much Pirates f the Carribean. there are multipe real world examples of criminals ganging up when it suits them and fragmenting when it is beneficial. From the Mafia to Cartels to football hooligans to terrorist organisations to inner city gangs... these 'factions' all have loose relationships because they all have personal interests that sometimes directly cnflict with their group interests.

making up random nonsense to support an obviously preposterous position is
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 12:48 pm
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*The X Man* said:
PvtParty said:
What is broken??

Earning $10 Million+ per travel/transport with no risk and no effort. Sounds a bit broke. Only thing not broke is the player(s) "$$$".


Well, I am not a math expert but a lorry can carry around 2300blk if carries no weapons, that is 230 cans of fuel. Fuel cans sell at $790 in SS but sometimes can reach $1k. That is a huge 44 lorry squad to earn $10 Million. If someone dedicates his complete gang to moving lorries after all the work required to have good reputation with all factions deserves our respect. No effort?
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 1:19 pm
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Just going to toss my under-informed 2 cents in:

I like the idea of tossing a risk/reward variable into the enemy's truce calculations: ((Value of cargo)+(Value of cars))/CR, where the Value is calculated at the average price across all of Evan. That shouldn't be too hard to calculate. It wouldn't even be too hard to do some sort of localization formula, maybe since each gang is only active in some towns, make it the average value across those towns, or max value, whatever. That's infinitely adjustable and really depends on how complex Sam wants to make the economy.

Some gangs in each faction might be more treacherous than others, ie - more likely to attack their own faction. Civs gangs in general might be less treacherous, while Pirate gangs tend to be more treacherous, etc.

The wealth of the player gang might also be taken into account. If all the gangs know that Bob is rich (and not just money, fleet and lockups and camps all count), then he's likely to be a larger target for some of them.

I've only been playing about 6 months though, and not traveled out of the Northern Triangle, so there is a ton about this game that I don't know yet. Some or all of these might be already in the game, or invalided by something else.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 1:34 pm
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Machiavelli would have something to say regarding reputation:

[The issue is not whether you are loved or hated, but rather whether you are feared].... and how much your potential enemies have to lose.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 1:43 pm Last edited Oct 21, 2015, 1:44 pm by Tallus
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JoniBoy said:
*The X Man* said:
PvtParty said:
What is broken??

Earning $10 Million+ per travel/transport with no risk and no effort. Sounds a bit broke. Only thing not broke is the player(s) "$$$".


Well, I am not a math expert but a lorry can carry around 2300blk if carries no weapons, that is 230 cans of fuel. Fuel cans sell at $790 in SS but sometimes can reach $1k. That is a huge 44 lorry squad to earn $10 Million. If someone dedicates his complete gang to moving lorries after all the work required to have good reputation with all factions deserves our respect. No effort?


That must be fuels current price. Then you wait for price rise, then sell. I have seen fuel prices reach $2K per unit. Take this number and recalculate your profits.

JoniBoy said:

If someone dedicates his complete gang to moving lorries after all the work required to have good reputation with all factions deserves our respect. No effort?


Yes, there is a lot of time and effort towards getting positive rep with all factions. The upkeep for some players is not that difficult to maintain. Respect??? for manipulating the game mechanics??? Sorry, but No.

My point of no effort means once rep immunity is secured, there is no effort whatsoever in clicking the "Do It" button from the squad screen. Once done, the mega millions await once the squad arrives.

This brings up the old "If the game lets you do it, it must ok", as to why these things continue to be abused. "If Sam didn't want us to do it, he wouldn't have allowed it to happen", this is the next quote that pops up. Since Sam is wanting to correct this issue, it's obvious that this was not his intent by allowing travels to be done of this type.

The issue will be fixed and Sam will get the right info in place to make the proper changes. So relax a bit until he posts any updates.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 5:29 pm
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*The X Man* said:
JoniBoy said:
*The X Man* said:
PvtParty said:
What is broken??

Earning $10 Million+ per travel/transport with no risk and no effort. Sounds a bit broke. Only thing not broke is the player(s) "$$$".


Well, I am not a math expert but a lorry can carry around 2300blk if carries no weapons, that is 230 cans of fuel. Fuel cans sell at $790 in SS but sometimes can reach $1k. That is a huge 44 lorry squad to earn $10 Million. If someone dedicates his complete gang to moving lorries after all the work required to have good reputation with all factions deserves our respect. No effort?


That must be fuels current price. Then you wait for price rise, then sell. I have seen fuel prices reach $2K per unit. Take this number and recalculate your profits.

JoniBoy said:

If someone dedicates his complete gang to moving lorries after all the work required to have good reputation with all factions deserves our respect. No effort?


Yes, there is a lot of time and effort towards getting positive rep with all factions. The upkeep for some players is not that difficult to maintain. Respect??? for manipulating the game mechanics??? Sorry, but No.

My point of no effort means once rep immunity is secured, there is no effort whatsoever in clicking the "Do It" button from the squad screen. Once done, the mega millions await once the squad arrives.

This brings up the old "If the game lets you do it, it must ok", as to why these things continue to be abused. "If Sam didn't want us to do it, he wouldn't have allowed it to happen", this is the next quote that pops up. Since Sam is wanting to correct this issue, it's obvious that this was not his intent by allowing travels to be done of this type.

The issue will be fixed and Sam will get the right info in place to make the proper changes. So relax a bit until he posts any updates.


While we are all nit picking on opinions about what was a normal game mechanic until some players who would not spend the time or effort to do the same got all huffy and decided to circumvent a public forum or any discussion with the player community.

We could possibly get those marshals that never seem to help noobs as the mission statement states, seems like an allowed exploit to me. Follow your mission statement or hang up the stars, imho.

PS. if you think making 10 mil on a 2-3 day lorry trip is to much, what's the DW cost of buzzers and other high price items that can be scouted and sold in the same 2-3 days of play by most advanced players.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 6:22 pm
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*sam* said:
edit:  I'm still discussing the best way to do this... the mechanism listed above probably isn't the best way.


Perhaps you should listen to more than just one player when considering or making changes?  Especially one player, whose intentions don't help the game or the community at all, just help himself.  Or, even worse, as in this case, try to get what he wants, by preventing another player he sees as the only stone in his way, from playing a perfectly legitimate, time-consuming, and not-nearly-as-lucrative-as-he-suggests, game.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 6:47 pm Last edited Oct 21, 2015, 6:48 pm by Krakhedd
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*The X Man* said:
PvtParty said:
What is broken??

Earning $10 Million+ per travel/transport with no risk and no effort. Sounds a bit broke. Only thing not broke is the player(s) "$$$".


I need tips, please!!!  That's way beyond what I am averaging right now.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 6:50 pm
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Yeah they get five free gangers and most of the ones I see, don't do a thing to help noobs. I even caught one (and wish I'd have taken a screen shot) saying he doesn't have the time to escort noobs. Well, since that's a critical Marshall function, if you don't or can't do that, then, why do you have stars at all?
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 6:59 pm
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Marshalls get 5 free gangers? Where do I sign up?

That is on a completely different topic though.

Does it really only take 2-3 days to get from TX to SS/Elms? Even if you were and if you were filling a squad full of lorries, as I am guessing the only way to make 10 mil, that is 1/3 of your gang, I know if I was in BL with 20 gangers I would be able to make that kind of cash easily. put 20 in SS and it would be a piece of cake to make the cash.

Not to mention if it is all about fuel to SS then what about the return trip? Seems like a week long endevour just to get the lorries back to TX.

Maybe we should make a daily limit of how much cash you make.

Some people just want to do this in game move items and make money, some people want to kill everyone.

It seems this game is following other online games, where a minority of people complain about something, it gets nerfed because it is "Overpowered" and ruins it for the majority, while the minority flourish because they have fixed what was irking them, or making it harder for them.

I dont want to sling personal insults at anyone, and dont have time for those that do the reverse, I am always happy for a debate on the impacts it will have, and to have Sam come in and declare it was going to change soon (yes he may of backed off that at the moment) but not put it up to the general publics view before already making up his mind I would call foul on that.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 7:22 pm
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Krakhedd said:
*sam* said:
edit:  I'm still discussing the best way to do this... the mechanism listed above probably isn't the best way.


Perhaps you should listen to more than just one player when considering or making changes?  Especially one player, whose intentions don't help the game or the community at all, just help himself.  Or, even worse, as in this case, try to get what he wants, by preventing another player he sees as the only stone in his way, from playing a perfectly legitimate, time-consuming, and not-nearly-as-lucrative-as-he-suggests, game.



1... this change was not triggered by who you think it was - it was merely following a comment from a normal player

2... free travel without any risk of encounters is totally out of whack with how I want the game to be, sorry if you don't agree. This is the reason I jumped on this particular point so strongly.. it was due to my beliefs, not due to any behind-the-scenes machinations which you imagine are going on
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 7:33 pm
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*sam* said:
2... free travel without any risk of encounters is totally out of whack with how I want the game to be, sorry if you don't agree.


Thank you! Now I don't have to go around poking people in the eye  :cyclops:

This is more how travels and transport were most likely meant to be done S788664. It's in the SS region and it's an ambush too! The same is done around BL too with larger odds against. Yes, as fun as it looks!
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 7:54 pm Last edited Oct 21, 2015, 7:58 pm by *The X Man*
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*sam* said:

2... free travel without any risk of encounters is totally out of whack with how I want the game to be, sorry if you don't agree. This is the reason I jumped on this particular point so strongly.. it was due to my beliefs, not due to any behind-the-scenes machinations which you imagine are going on


Well, if that is what you are willing to achieve, and your statement is pretty clear, I think that what we players have to do is give you ideas of how to make this in a way we like it and makes sense. I already gave an idea:

- There is a band of guys who are psychopaths, or possessed by deamons or any other reason that makes them not want to truce, never. You may find them anytime and anywhere. We could also make them especially nasty regarding combat rating or car builds. Or even more, they leave no survivors, there is no footsquad after a lost encounter with them (well, that might be a bit too nasty).- I was atually thinking in something similar to "the Reavers" from "Firefly".

There are other ideas in this thread like the reputation system wont allow you to be friends with everybody that also makes sense.

Just ideas, but please, makes no sense that you cannot truce a friendly gang just beacause you already truced one.

I think the forums should become a bit more positive and try to help Sam make reality the ideas he is willing to implement rather than discussing who makes Sam do whatever.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 8:21 pm
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Master TMO said:
Just going to toss my under-informed 2 cents in:

I like the idea of tossing a risk/reward variable into the enemy's truce calculations: ((Value of cargo)+(Value of cars))/CR, where the Value is calculated at the average price across all of Evan.  That shouldn't be too hard to calculate.  It wouldn't even be too hard to do some sort of localization formula, maybe since each gang is only active in some towns, make it the average value across those towns, or max value, whatever.  That's infinitely adjustable and really depends on how complex Sam wants to make the economy.

Some gangs in each faction might be more treacherous than others, ie - more likely to attack their own faction.    Civs gangs in general might be less treacherous, while Pirate gangs tend to be more treacherous, etc.

The wealth of the player gang might also be taken into account.  If all the gangs know that Bob is rich (and not just money, fleet and lockups and camps all count), then he's likely to be a larger target for some of them.

I've only been playing about 6 months though, and not traveled out of the Northern Triangle, so there is a ton about this game that I don't know yet.  Some or all of these might be already in the game, or invalided by something else.


6 months and you still make more sense than most of this lot.

Older players have all developed a range of 'techniques' to use foibles of the game. Some of these are ok... Some are exploits. When sam closes one they all have a good cry... And in the past have managed to undo good changes (sniper nerf anyone?).

This is not an ideal fix.. But it is a fix.
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Posted Oct 21, 2015, 8:42 pm
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