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Change to remove travel-truce exploit

*Bigspenner* Brassicas Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 546 Joined: Sep 17, 2008 So this does need fixing in your opinion after all then? ......................... vet wv combatL1 deathrceL1 paintladder slay2013 pvp4 gwextrav pvp3 marshal pvp2 pvp1 pvp5 paintball e2g Posted Oct 22, 2015, 1:12 pm

Grimm Sykes Sand xbzyas Darkwind Guru Merchants Faction Group: Banned Posts: 1,372 Joined: Mar 14, 2010 Make bulk goods the same value in every town, but allow prices to go up and down evan wide. Allow for many more courier missions and types of courier missions. The reason players move fuel is because there's never enough missions to load a lorry with. and allow some of these missions to be hauling fuel, not just crude oil (which would be more volatile then crude) Running a lorry back and forth between SS and EF loaded with 2300 bulk of mail makes much more cash in 3 days then the same lorry full of fuel from TX once you take in to account repairs, gate fees and fuel for the travel itself. Allow players a primary faction and secondary faction just like the NPC have. once a player is aligned, his reps can't allow him to be adored by enemies of his factions. exceptions like civ pirate players would have a tough time getting honored by both raiders and merchants. If soemone was BL Trucker/BL trucker like i would hope to play, they could get more missions, but never drop too far below or above neutral with all but maybe anarchists. if you move lots of goods or mail, anarchists and raiders should be more attracted to your gang. with vehicle fame weighing in on the CR balance Yes all that is complicated to a degree, but it would prevent future exploits that i could imagine. if you travel without tires, bottom armor should take damage in transit, much like front armor can take damage from traveling at 45 MPH, however the damage should be applied based on miles, not just applied randomly whenever a encounter spawns. (in case you didnt know, travel damage is non-existent on squads that truce everything) I have much more to say about needed changes that would enhance the player experience but these are what comes to mind right now. One little perk that might be fun to play with one day, would be the ability to watch replays in real time, not just stop and go turns, but where movement and shooting are shown at the same time, in real time. Being able to watch the replays would appeal to the instant gratification STEAM-ers. Edit: another idea that comes to mind if changes like these were made is that if someone drove 20000 bulk of mail to elms, the gazette would mention it, and elms would have a 1/2 price day on hiring recruits, or a free rifle for every gang that drops in. Meanwhile pirate human players would know who to keep an eye on (if pvp was accepted). meanwhile raider and pirate NPC gangs would be a bit more gun-ho, maybe a extra encounter with one of them, or more CR to face with them ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp4 Posted Oct 22, 2015, 1:35 pm Last edited Oct 22, 2015, 2:20 pm by Grimm Sykes

Grimm Sykes Sand xbzyas Darkwind Guru Merchants Faction Group: Banned Posts: 1,372 Joined: Mar 14, 2010 also lets say your a slaver raider, and merchants and civs hate you, then you shouldn't be able to buy bulk goods in merchant or civ aligned towns as the same price that merchant or civ players can. make bulk goods cost the same n each town, but be modified by faction reputation ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp4 Posted Oct 22, 2015, 2:22 pm Last edited Oct 22, 2015, 2:23 pm by Grimm Sykes

Master TMO Trueblood Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: May 31, 2015 Grimm Sykes said: also lets say your a slaver raider, and merchants and civs hate you, then you shouldn't be able to buy bulk goods in merchant or civ aligned towns as the same price that merchant or civ players can. make bulk goods cost the same n each town, but be modified by faction  reputation I personally am not a fan of this solution.  Doesn't mean it's not a feasible one, it just feels like it's going backwards to me, becoming less 'realistic' by simplifying things.  I prefer to leave the complexity of a system in, but tweak the balance slightly.  People are making too much money too easily?  Then increase the difficulty slightly, or reduce the profit margin.  But making the prices the same across the board just wipes out almost any reason to transport anything.  Sometimes you do need to wipe the slate clean and start again, it's true.  I'm not sure if this is one of those instances though. ......................... vet wv gwextrav Posted Oct 22, 2015, 2:40 pm

Grimm Sykes Sand xbzyas Darkwind Guru Merchants Faction Group: Banned Posts: 1,372 Joined: Mar 14, 2010 as i said, make more courier missions available, between running missions for rep and profit, and hauling stuff to camps in trade for items, theres still plenty of reason to transport ......................... vet wv pvp5 pvp4 Posted Oct 22, 2015, 4:01 pm

HexGrid GrindHouse Sunday Driver Mutants Faction Group: Members Posts: 78 Joined: Aug 23, 2014 *sam* said: Obviously my original suggestion has gone at this point - the flaws are obvious following these discussions. I have just made this change: when you buy faction rep with hero points, the enemies of that faction will take exception to it much more than they previously did.  This may be enough to tackle the core problem, whereby players manage to be liked by everyone? I have to say, I also really like the suggestion that pirates are an untrustworthy lot, and if you're moving about valuable, poorly guarded cargo, they are liable to go against their faction wishes and attack you anyway. This is perfectly logical behaviour. HAHA Right pirates are an unreliable lot. Like big business is honest and civs have never been crooked, rofl. This will still force some to fight their own reps which is wrong. Maybe create a new unaligned unskilled faction of the rejects of evan with a smaller CR encounter, like half the normal encounter CR. it would stop the unarmed flow of goods and shouldn't increase the difficulties for others ridiculously. ......................... vet wv race1 pvp4 pvp1 paintball deathrce1 circuit3 Posted Oct 22, 2015, 7:12 pm

*Bigspenner* Brassicas Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 546 Joined: Sep 17, 2008 Pirates are probably the wrong choice if you are using historical "shiver me timbers" pirates as inspiration and also modern day pirates are highly organised and cooperative whereas anarchists are a much more likelty candidate for being no ones real friend. 1. a person who advocates or believes in anarchy or anarchism. 2. a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed. 3. a person who promotes disorder or excites revolt against any established rule, law, or custom. Both definitions 2 and 3 would suggest they would happily steal from an organisation or group irrespective of deals other groups have done. Id make Anarchists no ones friend if it was me as they by definition are not supportive and actively rebel against faction, organisation and the rule of law (faction standings and relations) If this happens to be your own faction and you don't lie this change as not liking this change would be rubbish roleplay anyway. HexGrid said: *sam* said: Obviously my original suggestion has gone at this point - the flaws are obvious following these discussions. I have just made this change: when you buy faction rep with hero points, the enemies of that faction will take exception to it much more than they previously did.  This may be enough to tackle the core problem, whereby players manage to be liked by everyone? I have to say, I also really like the suggestion that pirates are an untrustworthy lot, and if you're moving about valuable, poorly guarded cargo, they are liable to go against their faction wishes and attack you anyway. This is perfectly logical behaviour. HAHA Right pirates are an unreliable lot. Like big business is honest and civs have never been crooked, rofl. This will still force some to fight their own reps which is wrong. Maybe create a new unaligned unskilled faction of the rejects of evan with a smaller CR encounter, like half the normal encounter CR. it would stop the unarmed flow of goods and shouldn't increase the difficulties for others ridiculously. ......................... vet wv combatL1 deathrceL1 paintladder slay2013 pvp4 gwextrav pvp3 marshal pvp2 pvp1 pvp5 paintball e2g Posted Oct 22, 2015, 8:01 pm Last edited Oct 22, 2015, 8:05 pm by *Bigspenner*

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 Splurs said: I dont see how the introduction of PvP in southern towns would fix this issue. I havnt done much in the way of PvP however I was still under the impression that you needed to guess CR and rough time a squad went out to ambush them? Quote: Nobody is saying that you shouldnt be able to make 10 million dollars in 3 days... they are saying you should not be able to do it risk free. For 2 very good reasons... 1. unfettered money flow breaks the game economy and adversely affects casual and newer players 2. its really silly I can agree with some of this, however I can also see the other side of it. I am not sure how it adversely affects casual and newer players, if anything I have seen Elms and SS fuel prices quite low lately, which I imagine it is from the constant flow of fuel from south. I dont agree with the 2. Trying to argue with "its really silly" IMO is not a good stance. I do believe it isnt what Sam wanted in the game, and if thats the case then SOMETHING needs to be changed, however this is a community that should be kept content for the majority. If things get changed lets make sure they are changed for the right reasons, sure someone will say it is Sams game he can change it how he wants, and to a point that is right, however I pay for the privalidge of having a subscription, which I believe should entail me to have at least some say in the major changes of the game, as this is one of them. If the majority want it then so be it, if they don't then also so be it. I just see fixing a broken issue with another broken issue is only going to make more people unhappy. Quote: if unarmed trucks left a town they would get attacked its simple. forget rep anarchists and pirates would loot you. No I do not agree with this. If your friend was to leave town unarmed I wouldn't loot you. Some people rule out of talent some out of fear, but the bottom line is there is some kind of heirachy, and you dont screw over friends. All im asking for is some feedback from those who are paying for the game to have some say in it. treat every players views equally and make an informed decision at the end of it to see where we end up. Nope... I can send a big squad out hunting players with auto balance on and just wait. I can also look at other players event logs to get a good idea when they travel. It's easy And saying 'it's silly' is fully explained by bigs point in the same post (and a lot better argument than making some #### up about pirates that you saw in a Johnny depp movie). Your last comment is moronic. Your best friends might not but we are talking about all the gangs of Evan. Big would.... Desperate degenerates would.. People who gain some benefit from your services might think twice but if the reward was great enough they would. You seem to think that there is some possible circumstance where you are such good mates with everyone that nobody would feel their loyalty tested by an easy target...that you can be friends with the people the Reds are at war with and yet they still like you enough to not take a cargo from you. You are either being deeply disingenuous and self serving or you live in some kind of bizarre utopia. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Oct 22, 2015, 8:47 pm Last edited Oct 22, 2015, 10:56 pm by goat starer

PA Racers PA Racers Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 1,005 Joined: Feb 11, 2010 If running vehicles with no armor and tires is an issue why not set same limits that are used for camp defenses? I cant use my buggy in a camp defense even though its fully armored, so that needs adjusted anyway! Should be allowed to use my scout vehicle in a camp defense should I choose too. ......................... vet wv ww northernsummer gwextrav gateautumn raceL1 race1 elmsautumn deathrceL1 e2g santa1 paintladder paintball pvp1 pvp4 pvp3 deathrce1 pvp2 combat1 circuit2 circuit3 circuit1 pvp528,161,23 Posted Oct 22, 2015, 11:10 pm

NotSure Dead Ferrets Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: Jan 20, 2015 JoniBoy said: *sam* said: 2... free travel without any risk of encounters is totally out of whack with how I want the game to be, sorry if you don't agree. This is the reason I jumped on this particular point so strongly.. it was due to my beliefs, not due to any behind-the-scenes machinations which you imagine are going on Well, if that is what you are willing to achieve, and your statement is pretty clear, I think that what we players have to do is give you ideas of how to make this in a way we like it and makes sense. I already gave an idea: - There is a band of guys who are psychopaths, or possessed by deamons or any other reason that makes them not want to truce, never. You may find them anytime and anywhere. We could also make them especially nasty regarding combat rating or car builds. Or even more, they leave no survivors, there is no footsquad after a lost encounter with them (well, that might be a bit too nasty).- I was atually thinking in something similar to "the Reavers" from "Firefly". There are other ideas in this thread like the reputation system wont allow you to be friends with everybody that also makes sense. Just ideas, but please, makes no sense that you cannot truce a friendly gang just beacause you already truced one. I think the forums should become a bit more positive and try to help Sam make reality the ideas he is willing to implement rather than discussing who makes Sam do whatever. Reavers would totally rock in this game! I want em! ......................... vet wv Posted Oct 23, 2015, 1:02 am

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 I will start out and say I didn't read all 5 pages of this discussion. I would just like to add that this "fix" would be a bad idea, and an alternative "fix" should be considered. Also like to add if you destroy your Civ faction to be able to truce Anarchists down south, for instance, this "fix" should not effect your faction trucing efforts. Doing something like this changes the entire way you play the game, and it may make hauling goods easier down south, but pretty much bans you from SS (unless you want your gangers to get beat up and injured in town and get 100% gates returns) Allow Faction bounty hunters to move around a bit....that Civ Killing anarchist gang who truces through the South might occasionally run into some Civ bounty hunters that he cannot truce. Problem solved. Just like the original system with the pirate player occasionally being hounded by bounty hunters. Have a nice day. -Longo ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Oct 23, 2015, 9:03 pm

*Bigspenner* Brassicas Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 546 Joined: Sep 17, 2008 Longo in case you didn't see it this was the eventual solution. Possibly the not reading left you with part of the story we all do that sometimes *sam* said: Obviously my original suggestion has gone at this point - the flaws are obvious following these discussions. I have just made this change: when you buy faction rep with hero points, the enemies of that faction will take exception to it much more than they previously did.  This may be enough to tackle the core problem, whereby players manage to be liked by everyone? I have to say, I also really like the suggestion that pirates are an untrustworthy lot, and if you're moving about valuable, poorly guarded cargo, they are liable to go against their faction wishes and attack you anyway. This is perfectly logical behaviour. ......................... vet wv combatL1 deathrceL1 paintladder slay2013 pvp4 gwextrav pvp3 marshal pvp2 pvp1 pvp5 paintball e2g Posted Oct 23, 2015, 9:29 pm Last edited Oct 23, 2015, 9:38 pm by *Bigspenner*

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *The X Man* said: PvtParty said: What is broken?? Earning $10 Million+ per travel/transport with no risk and no effort. Sounds a bit broke. Only thing not broke is the player(s) "$$$". And this is the core of the issue.  Some people are upset that certain people are rich and can afford to outbid them on sponsorships. So since one or more rich people are playing within the confines of the game mechanic allowing faction reputation,  to make money transporting goods, the people who aren't as rich want that game mechanic changed to remove an impediment to them. I want the game mechanic changed as well but for the altruistic reason of making the game function in a logical manner.  Its not trucing that's broken, its how reps can be gained with diametrically opposed factions when realistically the opposed faction should be opposite in "Like-ability" ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Oct 23, 2015, 11:18 pm

*Bigspenner* Brassicas Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 546 Joined: Sep 17, 2008 Obviously so what is your point, don't fix it or do fix it, or are you just arguing because you are bored? Sam is attempting to fix something that doesn't work as it doesn't fit the idea of the game world. Just say good plan lets fix it and we can all move on. Occassionally positive suggestions can be a better approach you should attempt one. Its daft that you can be friends with everyone anarchists and civs cant both be your allies in a post apocalyptic world and so the reps system needs a tweek. the hero points change that Sam has implemented may or may not fix it we shall see. if not I am sure he will welcome all suggestions. ......................... vet wv combatL1 deathrceL1 paintladder slay2013 pvp4 gwextrav pvp3 marshal pvp2 pvp1 pvp5 paintball e2g Posted Oct 23, 2015, 11:35 pm

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *sam* said: Krakhedd said: *sam* said: edit:  I'm still discussing the best way to do this... the mechanism listed above probably isn't the best way. Perhaps you should listen to more than just one player when considering or making changes?  Especially one player, whose intentions don't help the game or the community at all, just help himself.  Or, even worse, as in this case, try to get what he wants, by preventing another player he sees as the only stone in his way, from playing a perfectly legitimate, time-consuming, and not-nearly-as-lucrative-as-he-suggests, game. 1... this change was not triggered by who you think it was - it was merely following a comment from a normal player 2... free travel without any risk of encounters is totally out of whack with how I want the game to be, sorry if you don't agree. This is the reason I jumped on this particular point so strongly.. it was due to my beliefs, not due to any behind-the-scenes machinations which you imagine are going on We all agree with #2.  What we disagree on is how to create an environment that meets the intent, yet doesn't slap on some artificiality to do it. Or at least I think we all agree with #2, even people capitalizing on the existing system. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Oct 23, 2015, 11:35 pm

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 goat starer said: Master TMO said: Just going to toss my under-informed 2 cents in: I like the idea of tossing a risk/reward variable into the enemy's truce calculations: ((Value of cargo)+(Value of cars))/CR, where the Value is calculated at the average price across all of Evan.  That shouldn't be too hard to calculate.  It wouldn't even be too hard to do some sort of localization formula, maybe since each gang is only active in some towns, make it the average value across those towns, or max value, whatever.  That's infinitely adjustable and really depends on how complex Sam wants to make the economy. Some gangs in each faction might be more treacherous than others, ie - more likely to attack their own faction.    Civs gangs in general might be less treacherous, while Pirate gangs tend to be more treacherous, etc. The wealth of the player gang might also be taken into account.  If all the gangs know that Bob is rich (and not just money, fleet and lockups and camps all count), then he's likely to be a larger target for some of them. I've only been playing about 6 months though, and not traveled out of the Northern Triangle, so there is a ton about this game that I don't know yet.  Some or all of these might be already in the game, or invalided by something else. 6 months and you still make more sense than most of this lot. Older players have all developed a range of 'techniques' to use foibles of the game. Some of these are ok... Some are exploits. When sam closes one they all have a good cry... And in the past have managed to undo good changes (sniper nerf anyone?). This is not an ideal fix.. But it is a fix. Funny, when I made this same suggestion over a year ago you called me stupid and were totally against it. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Oct 23, 2015, 11:37 pm

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *Bigspenner* said: I think running unarmed and armoured trucks shouldn't help reduce encounters as its unrealistic, given the towns are small and the populations would see a convoy leave the reality is that and unarmed and unescorted lorry full of treasure would be almost guaranteed to be intercepted. so to use this technique while clever at finding a way around a problem is just inconsistent with the game world. I guess this is to do with tiny cr sneaking under the radar so I am guessing the fix must be to change the tolerances for How likely an encounter is specifically around the CR variable and leave the rep factor alone. No one would run a 40 CR unarmed truck if they lost every second one because it couldn't defend itself. I think a fix for this is needed even if no ones currently doing it just in case. Its 22 CR for a Lorry with 5/5/5/5/5/5 armor all around The coupling of a 22 CR Lorry with a ATG+HMG BPU means you SHOULD only be outnumbered 2 to 1 when you get an encounter.  But there are weird times (or common times for me...) where you get 18 vs 3 odds...  or like I got last week, 21 vs 3 ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Oct 23, 2015, 11:41 pm

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *sam* said: Obviously my original suggestion has gone at this point - the flaws are obvious following these discussions. I have just made this change: when you buy faction rep with hero points, the enemies of that faction will take exception to it much more than they previously did.  This may be enough to tackle the core problem, whereby players manage to be liked by everyone? I have to say, I also really like the suggestion that pirates are an untrustworthy lot, and if you're moving about valuable, poorly guarded cargo, they are liable to go against their faction wishes and attack you anyway. This is perfectly logical behaviour. Nice start but many people don't even bother with Hero points (or at least I don't).  When I had 4 positive reps not counting the guys who truce at neutral (best I ever managed), I got it all from scouting and killing people. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Oct 23, 2015, 11:50 pm

*StCrispin* Beasts of the Lair Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 2,657 Joined: Feb 13, 2012 *Bigspenner* said: Occassionally positive suggestions can be a better approach you should attempt one. I've suggested fixes for this for years.  Most of those suggestions have already been re-suggested by other players in this thread.  but IMO rebalancing the reputation system to not allow you to be friends with everyone is the best idea.  If Im an Anarchist, then any faction that is enemy of my faction should also be my enemy.  Unless something crazy changes that, and then it shouldn't be faction wide, maybe only gang specific. ......................... vet wv gwped paintladder paintball marshal raceL10,1,0 Posted Oct 24, 2015, 12:25 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 *StCrispin* said: goat starer said: Master TMO said: Just going to toss my under-informed 2 cents in: I like the idea of tossing a risk/reward variable into the enemy's truce calculations: ((Value of cargo)+(Value of cars))/CR, where the Value is calculated at the average price across all of Evan.  That shouldn't be too hard to calculate.  It wouldn't even be too hard to do some sort of localization formula, maybe since each gang is only active in some towns, make it the average value across those towns, or max value, whatever.  That's infinitely adjustable and really depends on how complex Sam wants to make the economy. Some gangs in each faction might be more treacherous than others, ie - more likely to attack their own faction.    Civs gangs in general might be less treacherous, while Pirate gangs tend to be more treacherous, etc. The wealth of the player gang might also be taken into account.  If all the gangs know that Bob is rich (and not just money, fleet and lockups and camps all count), then he's likely to be a larger target for some of them. I've only been playing about 6 months though, and not traveled out of the Northern Triangle, so there is a ton about this game that I don't know yet.  Some or all of these might be already in the game, or invalided by something else. 6 months and you still make more sense than most of this lot. Older players have all developed a range of 'techniques' to use foibles of the game. Some of these are ok... Some are exploits. When sam closes one they all have a good cry... And in the past have managed to undo good changes (sniper nerf anyone?). This is not an ideal fix.. But it is a fix. Funny, when I made this same suggestion over a year ago you called me stupid and were totally against it. I assume you can back that up with a link? Erm... Is that a no then? Just some more made up stff you and Krakk concocted in the playground? Sir! Sir! Goat is a racist... He worships the devil... He did naughty things with a hamster... Really crispin... Grow up. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Oct 24, 2015, 1:15 am Last edited Oct 24, 2015, 1:18 am by goat starer

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