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Great idea! A couple quirks you/we might run into.

Groovelle Criminal Underworld Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Subscribers Posts: 758 Joined: Jul 15, 2009 Love the total idea, Harry and Sam, and all in on the plan. There are a few issues: CR+playerskill is broken. The economy is broken. If one side can field 200 and 300+ sniper/heavyweaponmen or literal millions worth of mercenary suicide bomber 80 skill gangers in a Buzzer or two, what makes a couple of noobs want to show up in, what, 4 sedans? I don't see how you could convince a new player or less-advanced camp to get in with their people or pony up the cash for a 'more level playing field' hired gun when they don't have the player experience to come close to winning, and will be engaged and demoed before they can get out of the spawn circle by superior rigs. The thing that makes down south battles so intriguing is that the odds are stacked against superior tactics and skills. I would hate to see a mortar lorry and two Buzzers up against whatever cr equivalent that is in noobies. No one but the boldest camp in each region would raise a finger. In short, I think a total rebalancing of PVP cr would make this plan sizzle. What if, because Sam wills it, the lowly sedan, the Chevalier, the pickup, cargo vans and cadronas, had actual use in Evan? Even-out the odds of 20 skill gangers in the hands of week old accounts or half-new returners in Spirits speeding towards dual car cannons, and you might find someone willing to fight. My proposal is simple. Balance account age or events entered vs CR vs character skill and distance from home. We all know homefield advantage - this balances out one camp overextending too far. Let the the heavy weapons platforms stay parked at camp. but.. CR is a joke - battle-ready BPU with three guns is 183 cr. A kitted out Windsor II with two lesser ones? 142 cr. 41 CR for that car difference? Plus armour? Plus weapons? Plus Player Skill? Plus Ganger skill? Plus Specs? I see negative numbers of noobies wanting that fight as they run screaming when you let on what you're about to ask them to do. Especially when you tell them you'll be sending their only car against a camp owner's hoarde? But let them loose with Amatuer Night Phoenixes, Symphonies? Tell them their new hires can group up with other noobies to attack marauding Buzzers who strayed too far from home? Let them know how much a Buzzer sells for? I think you might have a fight. More pvp cr for giant, out-of-place vehicles up north. pvp cr penalty for specs/famed gangers and cars (all NPC hearing about this fight have a grudge already and want a piece). Spawns of affiliated faction NPCs to help the poor 18 year olds in broken heaps. Less cr for pvp fights in smaller vehicles. It makes sense thematically, too. If you told half the gangs in Evan that a gang leader of some forever-gang - someone who has killed hundreds of gangers and is driving a car responsible for millions of dollars of wasted car - was on its way, about to go murder and thieve on a squad of 17 year olds who barely own a shotgun between them, and are packing into a Phoenix and a busted up cargo van to go defend their livelihoods, every gang in Evan would be itching for a fight.. - just like down South. P.S. let the millions of Humvees guard their camp-gate. Attacking there should incur penalties and repercussions, even for a fleet of ramdronas. Keep the Northern triangle weird. Make the vets fear the little guys when they venture into their playground. PSS: I love love love love this idea! You're on a roll, Sam. ......................... vet wv0,2,0 Posted Mar 28, 2020, 1:09 am Last edited Mar 28, 2020, 1:12 am by Groovelle

Groovelle Criminal Underworld Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Subscribers Posts: 758 Joined: Jul 15, 2009 I dig the "camps have a limited set of cr 'tokens' to place for strategic interests," too, if it's easier. ......................... vet wv0,2,0 Posted Mar 28, 2020, 1:49 am Last edited Mar 28, 2020, 1:50 am by Groovelle

*HarryRed* Harrys Hippos Racer Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 139 Joined: May 3, 2009 That is how it will operate - perhaps should have made that clearer in the announcement post. CR point generation wont be linear with camp size - as you get bigger your marginal CR points will go down. On top of this, CR points wont be as efficient based on distance from your camp (geographically) As for your thoughts on the CR of certain cars being not appropriate for their power - we are of course open to fixing that, its a ridiculously easy fix for sam. That is if you can get a consensus on it, people who own a lot of powerful cars might try to shoot that down lol. ......................... vet wv gwextrav combatL1 marshal Posted Mar 28, 2020, 2:05 am

*Ninesticks* The Wombles Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 3,371 Joined: Apr 11, 2008 I think Groovelle has a point in that revisiting the CR calculations would be beneficial (car and crew). As an aside it is entirely possible to find yourself outmatched CR wise in these fights - against a human opponent that could be a significant risk - perhaps even more so if they have 'throw-away' mercenary types on their side. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp4 community pvp20,1,0 Posted Mar 28, 2020, 7:21 am

Blaer Andre Assault Autodueller Renegade Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: Mar 9, 2008 A CR revamp would be smegging BRILLIANT!!! Give the trash cars some value... But 'ware the double edged sword here... Gonna encounter a lot more vehicles on your scouts too... but Im all for it. ......................... vet wv Posted Mar 28, 2020, 12:06 pm

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 CR balancing with account age and considering skills into CR is also bad. “Make the vets fear the little guy”? Every time I have a skilled ganger in a fight I am nervous because I have literally spent real life years training them. Why is it fair, for example for me, who has paid for the game and been a consistent subscriber for like 12 years, who chooses to use a ganger I have spent years playing, have a player who may not have ever subbed and played their ganger a week, suddenly have me at a significant handicap? This new guy may likely be gone in a few weeks, but I will still be here, adding to the community whenever I can, paying to play and keep the game going? How is that fair ? Do you think this is suddenly going it generate thousands of subscribers? Get the vets to quit and there will be no more Darkwind. As it was explained to me I will probably use a combo of npcs and a few of my own gangers.. I don’t want to lose them, but like everyone I else, I want to have fun; not be in a running race with 1 leg just because I am a vet. ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Mar 28, 2020, 5:27 pm

*HarryRed* Harrys Hippos Racer Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 139 Joined: May 3, 2009 ^^ this. It is desirable to make noobs useful and included, but they gotta earn #### the hard way just like everyone else. Fostering a community of entitlement where people get given free perks in order to punish those who worked isn't a good way of creating a healthy community. If they don't wana lose their characters let them use mercs, but don't punish the guy who took the risk of bringing his good character out who might die. ......................... vet wv gwextrav combatL1 marshal Posted Mar 28, 2020, 5:44 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Not including character skills in CR calcs was always a design intent. A core aspect of the game (perhaps the most core of all) is nurturing your characters .. 'coz they're gonna eventually die. One of the things that makes highskill characters so important is precisely that they don't contribute to CR. It's part of the reward for nurturing them so long. Tweaking chassis and weapon CRs is definitely possible, though. (But carefully, of course, and only with votes to decide). ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Mar 28, 2020, 6:00 pm

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 I suspect with the nature of the combats, mounted mortar are going to need a CR bumpcost. Probably napalm too. Well nevermind - it's been done before if you recall. If we allow these weapons (text from SCL): The following vehicular weapons are not allowed: Paint Guns, Lasers and Heavy Lasers, Mortars, RGMs. ...On some maps these weapons can be brutal. Forcing the fight with the control circle might limit laser usefulness(it's a running style weapon), but MM has always been the king weapon in everything. ...they will need a CR bump or Geneva Convention limiting their use. Napalm is often used in SCL, and it seems ...okish.... so not sure about that one. Depends on the rules of these tile/camp combats. in SCL combats quickly degenerated into MM duals. That's why they got banned. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Mar 28, 2020, 6:16 pm Last edited Mar 28, 2020, 6:17 pm by Joel Autobaun

Blaer Andre Assault Autodueller Renegade Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: Mar 9, 2008 To be clear I just meant looking at chassis and weapons again... I also do not support anything based off of time in game as a CR balancer But Im unclear about say armour.... I feel like its a pure numbers regardless of strength... But I could be mistaken ......................... vet wv Posted Mar 28, 2020, 6:59 pm Last edited Mar 28, 2020, 7:02 pm by Blaer

Fealty Lost Slaughterhouse: Bloody Remains Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Subscribers Posts: 1,258 Joined: Jan 6, 2009 "You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind...you don't pull the mask from the Ole Lone Ranger...." "Bad Leroy Brown" Sorry, but if I heard the Waster of the Wastelanders (c) was going anywhere, I'd be staying at home. Half your guys will get wasted before they can even have a cunny-hair's chance of hitting anything and the other half will follow. Where everything is word of mouth and whispered stories told around campfires to frighten the youngers send chills down the spines of those who may have survived encounters with these legends...by running away...a million in kills is 20 million...done with an unarmed Flash and a rifle, with lightning slamming the ground around this legend of a ganger, seemingly directed at his enemies by sheer force of will. This is how the Bible got written. Long, long games of 'telephone' in a world full of illiterates and no (few) means of communication except the spoken word. And how would they find out someone was leaving a camp? Carrier pigeons? Smoke signals? They'd have no clue someone was rolling out without extensive radio communications or people every half mile with signal flags. Leave peoples' worked-up gangers alone. They shouldn't count for any more CR than one of those 18 year olds, because their cars can get shot up and they can die, if the dark gods of DW so will it. Just my .02 ......................... vet wv Posted Mar 28, 2020, 7:10 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 i think all of these issues were addressed. CR will become stretched (and less valuable) as you expand away from your camp.. so your outlying regions are vulnerable even if you are strong. the big camps are not going to be able to extend forever. if its done right at the fringes a bunch of newish players could be taking tiles without a fight because the alley wouldn't want to leave itself vulnerable by committing CR and leaving itself more vulnerable in key areas. mercenaries would have limited skill... you wont have to be a very experienced player to have better characters at your disposal. the proposal limits the maximum CR for tile attacks so you will never be faced by insane fleets of 300 skill sniper 6 fire engines. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Mar 28, 2020, 8:35 pm

lostsoul214 Rats of the Sand Pedestrian Renegade Group: Subscribers Posts: 22 Joined: Feb 26, 2009 I'm very split on this one as I can understand why people would not want ganger skill to count towards CR, On the other hand you can have a duel CC buzzer wasted by a duel gat pho if someone has those decent gangers. So what I'm saying is a 325 CR buzzer is not necessarily actually that high of a CR compared to the Pho with only 125. I also understand the time in raising gangers and keeping them safe is an accomplishment that shouldn't go unrewarded. I'm not sure what I'm actually getting at here, I just think there's no real reason for someone like me to go up against someone like let's say Joel, Sure it's fun the first few times, cause I'm playing with the big boys, but if I'm just getting slaughtered why do it? I very much enjoyed the CoE where I was set on fire and then sniped from a hill, I also didn't have complete newbs in and still only hit once. Not complaining just throwing some things out there. I go into a lot of the PvP things knowing I'm not going to have a chance, and so I'm not disappointed when I'm shot from across the map, haha. Not trying to get anything changed just trying to be involved a bit. ......................... vet wv northernsummer0,9,0 Posted Mar 28, 2020, 8:39 pm

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 I hope people stop comparing this to COE (which is the most unfair event you can do). We might play the camp strategy game for years and never fight - we might fight right away if next to each other. Don't know what to tell you. I've explained before about speed being a great ability in PvP. not wasting my breath, not going to tell you exactly how to beat me. Or you can just stay PvE not participate. I actually don't think I will personally have to time to do "well" in this strategy system. I don't know. I will play more than just sundays now, but not sure how much time I will have for it. I wish it came years ago. But very happy its finally going to happen. I think you will carve out a niche in it no matter who you are. Maybe you can hire me to fight your rivals. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Mar 28, 2020, 9:14 pm Last edited Mar 28, 2020, 9:17 pm by Joel Autobaun

lostsoul214 Rats of the Sand Pedestrian Renegade Group: Subscribers Posts: 22 Joined: Feb 26, 2009 I probably won't get involved with PvP, for the most pat it would do nothing for me but waste years of effort as I'm just some little guy, I'm not saying I should or any of the new guys should be able to take someone like you or even someone like Xman out. I couldn't and you and I both know that. I also understand that it's not CoE. But thats not really what my point was at all. I'm saying if you have 9 cars with 50 skill gangers and 2 or 3 cars with close to 300 skill gangers in them, The amount of CR really doesn't matter, you could probably even double it to 18 and it still wouldn't be a match worth watching, you'd know the outcome before the match even started. Again not looking for some sort of change I'm just pointing out that you should look at things if you want newer guys to get into it is all. I'm not trying to get you going or anything, was just trying to point out an issue with getting newer guys to join in. That's all ......................... vet wv northernsummer0,9,0 Posted Mar 28, 2020, 9:47 pm

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 I once lost a 300 psi(and 300 in many other things) in PvP to a bunch of scrub <50 gangers in defending the alley. My single worst loss ever, one ganger. I can't even remember if I won that fight. It didn't matter after that loss. You are wrong. You might never know why you are wrong. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Mar 28, 2020, 10:02 pm

lostsoul214 Rats of the Sand Pedestrian Renegade Group: Subscribers Posts: 22 Joined: Feb 26, 2009 Alright, Carry on ......................... vet wv northernsummer0,9,0 Posted Mar 28, 2020, 11:21 pm

*HarryRed* Harrys Hippos Racer Evan Reds Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 139 Joined: May 3, 2009 I don't think its desirable for everyone to play the role of some high up political figure in this new gamemode - in EvE online theres what - like 10 guys who run the major factions, and thats a game with tens of thousands of daily users. This system is about creating dynamic new player driven gameplay - where you fit into that depends. I am confident however that everyone will find their place as Joel said. The 2 - 3 car limit per player will be HUGE in giving people something to do ......................... vet wv gwextrav combatL1 marshal Posted Mar 28, 2020, 11:42 pm

Dropdeadfred Main Street Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Subscribers Posts: 59 Joined: Dec 15, 2015 lostsoul214 said: Again not looking for some sort of change I'm just pointing out that you should look at things if you want newer guys to get into it is all. I'm not trying to get you going or anything, was just trying to point out an issue with getting newer guys to join in. That's all This.  He's not wrong. It's easy to call someone incorrect when you're already at the top.  Unless you want this new system that Sam is going to spend how many hours to create to only be played by a handful of players, it's really something to think about. As it stands, I don't see any reason to get involved.  The barrier of entry to get a camp to play in the 'boardgame' is really high.  To play in the boardgame you've gotta put that camp investment at-risk.  You've also gotta put your collection of vehicles and your high-end gangers at risk.  For what?  Sure, that's to be determined, though a player can just stay out of all of it and still have a camp to craft things at.  If there's exclusive rewards out there on certain hexes that can't be earned through any other means, it becomes a rich get richer scenario with a bunch of extra steps. CR Balancing between the squads of cars that would be fighting seemed to be the equalizer, except Ganger skill/specs doesn't come into play so its not balanced at all.  Sure, Joel, you've lost a high end ganger to a bunch of scrubs before.  That's once.  Throughout multiple fights, hex-control scuffles and whatever, the law of averages wins out and the group with the best gangers will win.  Also, since I'm sure there won't be any kind of world wipe (and I'm not proposing this, no need to reply about contesting a wipe), the odds are already stacked against most.  Even if there was a world wipe, just look at other games that have similar-ish style systems.  Mordheim and Blood Bowl give you gangs or teams of players that have stat points and skills that increase as play goes on.  Would anyone want to join a fresh Blood Bowl league with already well established teams? It's why Ark, 7DaysToDie, Rust, etc, servers have huge population spikes after they do a wipe.  Very few people want to get too involved in something that's PvP in nature when they already start out steps behind the others.  This is even more-so when the resources that are collected (gangers in this case) are either incredibly rare to get or take a lot of time to build up.  There's always the corner cases out there that'll buck the trend.  If that's who this system is being catered to, by all means. ......................... vet wv ped1 paintball0,1,0 Posted Mar 28, 2020, 11:46 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 the fact that players would have a cap on merc hires would automatically make it attractive to have a newer player hire some and join you. camp wars have always got a bunch of newer players involved. they have always had less to lose... and with merc hires will have even less. and frankly nobody has to do it... you can play, run a camp etc without ever joining in. that's your loss. so why anyone is saying "i wont do it but i think i should be able to shape it" is entirely beyond me. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Mar 28, 2020, 11:53 pm Last edited Mar 28, 2020, 11:56 pm by *goat starer*

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