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Firelight improvements

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 *Bastille* said: with about 400 dark, quiet corners with hooded figures within earshot of the bar. haha, LOL.  This is the conceit we have going in all MMOs. Even the world's smallest MMO... ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted May 31, 2020, 2:21 pm

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 *sam* said: An idea which has been suggested to me: gangs could get character slots which have to be used in specific towns, or perhaps specific groups of towns. So there's no decision being forced on you to reduce your presence in the north by having some in the south. This idea might have merit. But then you run into the thought that everyone will now have a ganger in, let’s say Texan, all sitting and doing nothing, just watching the market for rares, which honestly should only be an option for people who are active there. ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted May 31, 2020, 5:17 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 *Longo* said: *sam* said: An idea which has been suggested to me: gangs could get character slots which have to be used in specific towns, or perhaps specific groups of towns. So there's no decision being forced on you to reduce your presence in the north by having some in the south. This idea might have merit. But then you run into the thought that everyone will now have a ganger in, let’s say Texan, all sitting and doing nothing, just watching the market for rares, which honestly should only be an option for people who are active there. Ah, true. Hero points fixes that though, no? ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted May 31, 2020, 5:21 pm

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 *sam* said: *Longo* said: *sam* said: An idea which has been suggested to me: gangs could get character slots which have to be used in specific towns, or perhaps specific groups of towns. So there's no decision being forced on you to reduce your presence in the north by having some in the south. This idea might have merit. But then you run into the thought that everyone will now have a ganger in, let’s say Texan, all sitting and doing nothing, just watching the market for rares, which honestly should only be an option for people who are active there. Ah, true. Hero points fixes that though, no? If someone doesnt grab the rares with HP, it becomes available in normal market. This happens a fair amount of times. ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted May 31, 2020, 5:41 pm

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Maybe only allow extra slots in 1 designated city. Sub HQ city ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted May 31, 2020, 5:42 pm

joemcfarnham THERAPISTS Racer Anarchists Faction Group: Members Posts: 163 Joined: May 26, 2009 *Longo* said: *sam* said: *Longo* said: *sam* said: An idea which has been suggested to me: gangs could get character slots which have to be used in specific towns, or perhaps specific groups of towns. So there's no decision being forced on you to reduce your presence in the north by having some in the south. This idea might have merit. But then you run into the thought that everyone will now have a ganger in, let’s say Texan, all sitting and doing nothing, just watching the market for rares, which honestly should only be an option for people who are active there. Ah, true. Hero points fixes that though, no? If someone doesnt grab the rares with HP, it becomes available in normal market. This happens a fair amount of times. Once the rares are past HP and on the free market its open season, I dont think people having extra characters in towns to grab items on the market  would be an issue at all. There's currently a handful of people that are watching the markets as is, spreading the items around shouldn't matter. ......................... vet wv Posted May 31, 2020, 6:09 pm

Tez Blood Roses Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 579 Joined: Sep 13, 2009 And people will suddenly start scouting more in the south when they get a handful of character slots? ......................... vet wv combat1 pvp3 pvp51,4,0 Posted May 31, 2020, 6:16 pm

Dropdeadfred Main Street Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Subscribers Posts: 59 Joined: Dec 15, 2015 Ah, another of the "Why don't people move further south" discussions. I've talked this one to death in Discord and the lobby. It's a combination of a number of things, though the biggest factor, and this goes with pretty much any game (especially one with permadeath), Risk vs Reward. It's skewed so far to the Risk side once you leave SS, it's not worth it. Why should I highly risk the gangers that I've been putting literal MONTHS of real time into, in many cases on the daily, for random loot that only might show up? And even if it does, it's no guarantee that I'll be able to bring it home, what with returns, zerked enemy drivers that require quite a bit of blue damage to finally demo, etc. None of this loot is needed. A number of things come up in the market. I can eventually craft most of it in the camp. There's practically zero events in the other towns to do. The town event spawns have been discussed many times as well, though the only change we've seen is to increase their pay (don't get me wrong, it was needed). Right now, as I type this, 21 events spread out over 2.5 hours. 5 are outside of SS. I understand town events spawn based on where the population is. Maybe that system should be looked at? Going back to Risk vs Reward. When I first joined up however many years ago, I had personally assumed that the game had a natural progression to it. That, like most other MMOs, it would naturally move you from Somerset to Elmsfield to Gateway. It took a bit, but it became clear that this was not the case. Players were largely left to their own devices after the tutorial. Whether or not that's a good design isn't the debate here. What happened was huge spikes in levels of difficulty as you left SS. Nothing in the game can prepare a player for the 3 vs 13 fights you can see in Gateway. Even the jump from SS to Elms is quite jarring. Then the returns... It's been explained to me that the gangs in those towns, since nobody hunts them, they keep getting stronger each week from weekly training. That it's the players fault that it's so hard. I'm sorry, but the player base can't be blamed for a system that's setting them up to fail. Very few scout because it's hard, so in response the gangs there just keep getting harder? I'm sure that things can be put into place so that the gangs in each town can only hit a certain power level. All of this boils down to, why leave SS? There's ALWAYS players there so if someone wants to group scout, they can usually find one. There's always events going on to hone up skills or try and make some $$. The level of difficulty, once you get a half decent scout and some single spec gangers, is manageable and probably right where it should be for a solo player. I've got a buddy who just started recently. He's about at that point in the game (decent scout, starting to get specs). He can usually solo scout in SS, though the occasional fight can still bite him back. This is right about where you want things to be, imho. Where you feel pretty confident going out to scout on your own but maybe, just maybe, things can go bad and you'll suddenly be fighting for your ganger's very lives. Other games aim for a 50/50 win/loss ratio. Because of perma-death, time investment into gangers, etc, that ratio just won't work here. So, I've been told not to bitch about the systems without suggesting some fixes. 1. Change how town events spawn. Having 3 combats, all in SS, stacked up at the exact same time, like I'm seeing right this second, is silly. Space them out more. 15 minute intervals would be great. Add more events into the other towns. This doesn't mean that the 21 events that I mentioned earlier suddenly get spread out over the 9 towns. That would end up being quite sparse, 2 events per town over 2.5 hours. 2-3 events per town, spread out over 1 hour, perhaps? Remove the restriction from registering for multiple events, even in the same town. Increase the $$ for events outside the Northern Triangle. 2. The Northern Triangle is a canon area in the world of Evan. Use it and take advantage of it. It can be the "safer" area in the world, though I use the term loosely. The three towns there, re-tune them so that they have a natural progression to them. Some suggestions on this... a. Nerf the SS difficulty. This is your "starter" or "noob" town, let it feel that way. Reduce the spawns, and nerf the enemy gangs, so that newer players can get to scouting a whole lot sooner. Additionally, remove any of the high $$ chassis from spawning here (Phoenix, Windsor II, Wurzel, Lorry, etc) and the rates that the shop purchases the chassis that can be looted, which removes SS from becoming a loot pinata. Finally, reduce any skill gains over 50, courage gains over 100 and leadership gains over 150 to either zero or next to zero. Cap enemy gang skills/specs so that things don't get out of hand. Remove returns. b. Re-tune the Elmsfield difficulty to what Somerset is currently at. Re-introduce the high $$ chassis mentioned above, except for the Lorry. Sell rates for the chassis are about where SS is currently at. Reduce any skill gains over 100, courage over 150 and leadership gains over 250 (maybe 300) to either zero or next to zero. Cap enemy gang skills/specs so that things don't get out of hand. Remove returns. c. Re-tune the Gateway difficulty accordingly between the Somerset and Elmsfield experience (Using numbers, if SS is 0.5 difficulty and Elms is 1.0, set Gateway to 1.5). Re-introduce the Lorry along with a number of other chassis that you don't see in Elms/SS. Slight boost to chassis sales here (maybe 10%?), as it's close to becoming the central trade "hub" since it's there on the border of the Triangle and the southern towns. Reduce any skill gains over 150, courage over 200 and leadership gains over 400 to either zero or next to zero. Cap enemy gang skills/specs so that things don't get out of hand. Remove returns. 3. Don't touch anything south of Gateway. That's a much harsher world. The players can be introduced to this difficulty curve when they decide to scout out of Gateway towards Badlands, etc. No skill gain caps outside of Gateway. ......................... vet wv ped1 paintball0,1,0 Posted May 31, 2020, 6:21 pm

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Dropdeadfred said: Ah, another of the "Why don't people move further south" discussions.  I've talked this one to death in Discord and the lobby. It's a combination of a number of things, though the biggest factor, and this goes with pretty much any game (especially one with permadeath), Risk vs Reward.  It's skewed so far to the Risk side once you leave SS, it's not worth it.  Why should I highly risk the gangers that I've been putting literal MONTHS of real time into, in many cases on the daily, for random loot that only might show up?  And even if it does, it's no guarantee that I'll be able to bring it home, what with returns, zerked enemy drivers that require quite a bit of blue damage to finally demo, etc.  None of this loot is needed.  A number of things come up in the market.  I can eventually craft most of it in the camp. There's practically zero events in the other towns to do.  The town event spawns have been discussed many times as well, though the only change we've seen is to increase their pay (don't get me wrong, it was needed).  Right now, as I type this, 21 events spread out over 2.5 hours.  5 are outside of SS.  I understand town events spawn based on where the population is.  Maybe that system should be looked at? Going back to Risk vs Reward.  When I first joined up however many years ago, I had personally assumed that the game had a natural progression to it.  That, like most other MMOs, it would naturally move you from Somerset to Elmsfield to Gateway.  It took a bit, but it became clear that this was not the case.  Players were largely left to their own devices after the tutorial.  Whether or not that's a good design isn't the debate here.  What happened was huge spikes in levels of difficulty as you left SS.  Nothing in the game can prepare a player for the 3 vs 13 fights you can see in Gateway.  Even the jump from SS to Elms is quite jarring.  Then the returns... It's been explained to me that the gangs in those towns, since nobody hunts them, they keep getting stronger each week from weekly training.  That it's the players fault that it's so hard.  I'm sorry, but the player base can't be blamed for a system that's setting them up to fail.  Very few scout because it's hard, so in response the gangs there just keep getting harder? I'm sure that things can be put into place so that the gangs in each town can only hit a certain power level. All of this boils down to, why leave SS?  There's ALWAYS players there so if someone wants to group scout, they can usually find one.  There's always events going on to hone up skills or try and make some $$.  The level of difficulty, once you get a half decent scout and some single spec gangers, is manageable and probably right where it should be for a solo player.  I've got a buddy who just started recently.  He's about at that point in the game (decent scout, starting to get specs).  He can usually solo scout in SS, though the occasional fight can still bite him back.  This is right about where you want things to be, imho.  Where you feel pretty confident going out to scout on your own but maybe, just maybe, things can go bad and you'll suddenly be fighting for your ganger's very lives.  Other games aim for a 50/50 win/loss ratio.  Because of perma-death, time investment into gangers, etc, that ratio just won't work here. So, I've been told not to bitch about the systems without suggesting some fixes.   1.  Change how town events spawn.  Having 3 combats, all in SS, stacked up at the exact same time, like I'm seeing right this second, is silly.  Space them out more.  15 minute intervals would be great.  Add more events into the other towns.  This doesn't mean that the 21 events that I mentioned earlier suddenly get spread out over the 9 towns.  That would end up being quite sparse, 2 events per town over 2.5 hours.  2-3 events per town, spread out over 1 hour, perhaps?  Remove the restriction from registering for multiple events, even in the same town.  Increase the $$ for events outside the Northern Triangle. 2.  The Northern Triangle is a canon area in the world of Evan.  Use it and take advantage of it.  It can be the "safer" area in the world, though I use the term loosely.  The three towns there, re-tune them so that they have a natural progression to them.  Some suggestions on this... a.  Nerf the SS difficulty.  This is your "starter" or "noob" town, let it feel that way.  Reduce the spawns, and nerf the enemy gangs, so that newer players can get to scouting a whole lot sooner.  Additionally, remove any of the high $$ chassis from spawning here (Phoenix, Windsor II, Wurzel, Lorry, etc) and the rates that the shop purchases the chassis that can be looted, which removes SS from becoming a loot pinata.  Finally, reduce any skill gains over 50, courage gains over 100 and leadership gains over 150 to either zero or next to zero.  Cap enemy gang skills/specs so that things don't get out of hand.  Remove returns. b.  Re-tune the Elmsfield difficulty to what Somerset is currently at.  Re-introduce the high $$ chassis mentioned above, except for the Lorry.  Sell rates for the chassis are about where SS is currently at.  Reduce any skill gains over 100, courage over 150 and leadership gains over 250 (maybe 300) to either zero or next to zero.  Cap enemy gang skills/specs so that things don't get out of hand.  Remove returns. c.  Re-tune the Gateway difficulty accordingly between the Somerset and Elmsfield experience (Using numbers, if SS is 0.5 difficulty and Elms is 1.0, set Gateway to 1.5).  Re-introduce the Lorry along with a number of other chassis that you don't see in Elms/SS.  Slight boost to chassis sales here (maybe 10%?), as it's close to becoming the central trade "hub" since it's there on the border of the Triangle and the southern towns.  Reduce any skill gains over 150, courage over 200 and leadership gains over 400 to either zero or next to zero.  Cap enemy gang skills/specs so that things don't get out of hand.  Remove returns. 3.  Don't touch anything south of Gateway.  That's a much harsher world.  The players can be introduced to this difficulty curve when they decide to scout out of Gateway towards Badlands, etc.  No skill gain caps outside of Gateway. Dude! - Thanks for taking the time to really think this out and come up with some productive options and idea. Props to you! Some of the things you list actually were implemented years ago, for instance in terms of the skills gains. Thats why anyone over 100 in SS for me moves out, because the skill gains are so bad. They actually start scaling way back post 50 I believe. The overlapping events or 3 at the same time is spot on needing corrections. More events in the  other towns is also a welcome addition. Some of the other towns lack town maps to do arena or racing, so more maps would need to be generated. Bast? Also Firefly was playing with the mission program, maybe he can come up with something. ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted May 31, 2020, 8:02 pm

Tez Blood Roses Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 579 Joined: Sep 13, 2009 Training in SS for me slows rapidly at the 50 mark, unless you're weekly training cyclists it's not worth my time leaving them when they go over 50. I'll have a stab at more maps when sam updates Sidewinder. ......................... vet wv combat1 pvp3 pvp51,4,0 Posted May 31, 2020, 8:17 pm

Valiance The Vanguards Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,175 Joined: Jan 15, 2008 +1 on Longo's props, dropdead. Great to see specific, actionable ideas. Great stuff. ......................... vet combat1 wv ped1 northernsummer Posted May 31, 2020, 8:41 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Yes, good suggestions for SS > Elms > GW, thanks. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted May 31, 2020, 8:55 pm

Dropdeadfred Main Street Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Subscribers Posts: 59 Joined: Dec 15, 2015 *Longo* said: Some of the things you list actually were implemented years ago, for instance in terms of the skills gains. Thats why anyone over 100 in SS for me moves out, because the skill gains are so bad. They actually start scaling way back post 50 I believe. The overlapping events or 3 at the same time is spot on needing corrections. More events in the  other towns is also a welcome addition. Some of the other towns lack town maps to do arena or racing, so more maps would need to be generated. Bast? Also Firefly was playing with the mission program, maybe he can come up with something. As someone that's mostly scouting out of SS, the drop in skill gains post 50 aren't enough to justify me leaving yet.  It does get to be worse after 100, though they still gain.  Having them there makes carrying the newer gangers that much easier.  Slow gain is still a gain. Regarding maps, I also have the map maker and have been dabbling.  I've started with recreating an arena from old school Car Wars (Double Drum, if anyone remembers).  The basics of the arena are done, just gotta pretty it up now.  I'd love to work together with someone if there's an interest out there! ......................... vet wv ped1 paintball0,1,0 Posted May 31, 2020, 9:17 pm

joemcfarnham THERAPISTS Racer Anarchists Faction Group: Members Posts: 163 Joined: May 26, 2009 Quick summarization Additional character slots per town, maybe per group of towns, south vs north, or a 2nd hq town, 15-20 ganger cap per town with leadership expanding per town, an additional 10 gangers Slots IN FL SV Sars and TX. other possibilities. Slow or stop gains over 50-100 in SS forcing people to move around and keeping SS somewhat harder. Significantly faster training in the wild or weekly training in higher risk towns, FL, SV, Sars, double what it is now, 1.5x in BL and TX. Town Events need to be better distributed. Am I missing any ideas, Basically we need to Increase the RISK/REWARD of the south without changing the difficulty and without giving out more loot. ......................... vet wv Posted May 31, 2020, 10:34 pm

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 joemcfarnham said: Quick summarization Additional character slots per town, maybe per group of towns, south vs north, or a 2nd hq town, 15-20 ganger cap per town with leadership expanding per town, an additional 10 gangers Slots IN FL SV Sars and TX. other possibilities. Slow or stop gains over 50-100 in SS forcing people to move around and keeping SS somewhat harder. Significantly faster training in the wild or weekly training in higher risk towns, FL, SV, Sars, double what it is now, 1.5x in  BL and TX. Town Events need to be better distributed. Am I missing any ideas, Basically we need to Increase the RISK/REWARD of the south without changing the difficulty and without giving out more loot. I don’t think there should be a cap per town. If I hq in a town, or a town where my camp is, I will have more guys generally. Also if I love scouting sars, I shooo I’llldnr be limiting brining most of my gang there ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted May 31, 2020, 11:31 pm

*Ninesticks* The Wombles Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 3,371 Joined: Apr 11, 2008 I think he was suggesting no limits whatsoever south of GW. For the southern towns he was suggesting perhaps extra town specific ganger slots to encourage expansion - not sure how well that would work with things as they stand. Doesn't mean it isn't possible of course, would take some careful consideration and planning. The loot in SS is already dumbed down to make it easier - less prevalance of rocket cars etc iirc - though this has led to the dreaded Mutant Mulcher mobbing. Capping what chassis appear there would have to be carefully considered relating to how much that might influence a new gang's ability to function there and expand. In general loose principles, seems like a reasonable set of suggestions - well worth a discussion if nothing else. Still leaves me pondering whether or not they would actually work. This game makes players risk averse in many ways - scouting down south does require a certain level of crew to improve your chances - but that isn't the whole story by far. Scouts tend to take longer, require a significant shift in tactics etc. Training down south is already better (you do a lot more shooting for a start) not sure it needs that much help. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp4 community pvp20,1,0 Posted Jun 1, 2020, 12:15 am

darthspanky McSPANKYS LOLLIPOP GANSTAS Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 4,009 Joined: Jul 29, 2007 i would love to see camp offer better weekly training some of my younger guys who stay at sv camp on training day earn 2 max most dont get anything or just 1 point skill increase but if i took them to sv they make alot more per week. offer the same skill gains per week for camps in the town they would normally skill up the same in. ......................... vet paintball wv1,0,1 Posted Jun 1, 2020, 2:39 am Last edited Jun 1, 2020, 2:41 am by darthspanky

Barbat Postapocalypse Paladins Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: Apr 6, 2010 +1 to what dropdeadfred said. I won't argue the details i don't pretend to be able to see the long term effects of such changes but making ss more new player friendly is something i am all for. ......................... vet wv Posted Jun 1, 2020, 3:13 am

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 What about some new missions in each town, like the new ones in the tutorial, that provide some cool loot? I would be more than willing to make some difficult ones in tactical. Would this get people to check out other towns? ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Jun 1, 2020, 4:40 am

Dropdeadfred Main Street Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Subscribers Posts: 59 Joined: Dec 15, 2015 While that might be an interesting draw for the short-term, it wouldn't keep people there. Head in, do the missions, leave ......................... vet wv ped1 paintball0,1,0 Posted Jun 1, 2020, 6:21 am

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