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unable to turn around in travel

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 Lord Foul said: First you say it's fixed and then agree that it should be based on the amount of encounters. Encounters were still being done, just not the full amount. it is fixed as in it has stopped you and darth and tink and others manipulating the game. Other people knew this was technically possible but chose not to do it because.. to be frank.. it smacks of cheating. I think its a bit dissapointing when marshals and rules council members use exploits rather than helping to plug them. that is not necessarily the end of the discussion about how it should work. Sam i think your rationale is wrong.. people dont learn by doing what they already know.. they tend to learn by mistakes. You might find a new backroute when avoiding an encounter but you are going to learn far more about what and where is dangerous frommeeting people. The learning from encounters should heavily outweigh the learing from uneventful travels. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted May 10, 2009, 1:01 pm Last edited May 10, 2009, 1:31 pm by goat starer

darthspanky McSPANKYS LOLLIPOP GANSTAS Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 4,008 Joined: Jul 29, 2007 perhaps we wouldnt need to scout train in sars if we could earn points in ss or elm which we cant do without doing a lot of scouts when were high skill thats crap. i dont see it as a exploit if you force us to move to earn skill. ......................... vet paintball wv1,0,1 Posted May 10, 2009, 2:24 pm Last edited May 10, 2009, 2:27 pm by darthspanky

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 but again.. in RP terms what are your scouts going to learn in the relatively safe surroundings of Somerset?? Its like suggesting that you might learn some hunting and gathering survival skills in Burger King ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted May 10, 2009, 2:27 pm

darthspanky McSPANKYS LOLLIPOP GANSTAS Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 4,008 Joined: Jul 29, 2007 i might fight 2 or 3 more in sars than i would in ss and guess what ya fight the same kinda cars i guess since there in ss there just stupid if i want to learn to get scout points i better drive to the other end of the ccontinent and ill earm points there lol bs just a nerf for high skill guys i cant even earn a damm point in 7 scouts yeah thats really fair ......................... vet paintball wv1,0,1 Posted May 10, 2009, 3:22 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Jeez darth we have been through this many times. I implemented skill-up differences between the safer regions and the tougher regions at the request of the majority of players. They wanted a reason to be rewarded rather than penalised (via worse CR-balance) for moving away from SS. Most players want a suitably-rewarded but increasing challenge as they get more experienced, they don't just want to keep killing weak NPCs over and over. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted May 10, 2009, 3:26 pm

darthspanky McSPANKYS LOLLIPOP GANSTAS Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 4,008 Joined: Jul 29, 2007 then can ya give us pirates some better trader targets than ss and elm i have ttried hunting bl for traders there tuffer in ss. ilike fl was suppose to be a pirate town ya cant be a pirate there cause theres no traders you want to play pirate but cant go anywhere but elm and ss to find tuffest traders. then ya cant earn crap for skill gains. ......................... vet paintball wv1,0,1 Posted May 10, 2009, 6:06 pm Last edited May 10, 2009, 6:10 pm by darthspanky

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 *sam* said: When you start a travel, your scout gains skill for the entire journey (this is skill gained for travelling efficiently while remaining discreet). With each road encounter, the scout gains more skill (this is for the skill of avoiding larger forces and meeting only smaller ones). It's only the 'journey part' that has been revoked in this fix. So you're not losing out on encounters actually processed. excellent, the way it should be (especially for traveling through bad country like fl) I'm glad it's fixed because before scout skill would never slow down, unlike gunnery when you get above 150, it starts to advance at a crawl even in bl Quote: And I do think it's an exploit to intentionally turn around without doing the journey with the sole intent of maximising your scout skill gains over a period of time. One I have been aware of for quite a while, but never got around to fixing. well i hate to say it, but to set the record straight, about 6 months ago? i figured this exploit, and talked about it to another marshall in the loby, he said it looked like an exploit, and said to ask you,  so i did and explained the whole thing as clearly as i could to you via several pms, at the end of which you said it was not an expoit... so i continued (at the time they were in the 200 i think, my memory is awful) if it's time for judgement then fell free to drop my 2 best scouts (400+ maxed) to a lower level, but bare in mind that i have used them a lot after they were maxed out ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted May 11, 2009, 12:55 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 *Tinker* said: about 6 months ago? i figured this exploit, and talked about it to another marshall in the loby, he said it looked like an exploit, and said to ask you,  so i did and explained the whole thing as clearly as i could to you via several pms, at the end of which you said it was not an expoit... so i continued (at the time they were in the 200 i think, my memory is awful) if it's time for judgement then fell free to drop my 2 best scouts (400+ maxed) to a lower level, but bare in mind that i have used them a lot after they were maxed out he's calling you out sam! bust his scouts down to 20!!! And while you are at it bust his gunners down to 20 since he probably has a cheat there too!!  ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted May 11, 2009, 1:49 am

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 goat starer said: *Tinker* said: about 6 months ago? i figured this exploit, and talked about it to another marshall in the loby, he said it looked like an exploit, and said to ask you,  so i did and explained the whole thing as clearly as i could to you via several pms, at the end of which you said it was not an expoit... so i continued (at the time they were in the 200 i think, my memory is awful) if it's time for judgement then fell free to drop my 2 best scouts (400+ maxed) to a lower level, but bare in mind that i have used them a lot after they were maxed out he's calling you out sam! bust his scouts down to 20!!! And while you are at it bust his gunners down to 20 since he probably has a cheat there too!!  Goat get off my back you soure puss!  Sam I just did a travel from FL-> BL and turned around after the town exit encounter,.... GOT 0 scout point though He did gain 3 points after i clicked travel, but it fell back to his original after i clicked return (right after finishing the encounter) Also if it helps I auto escaped both town exit and return encounter is this normal? It soesn't seem to say this in your post above ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted May 11, 2009, 2:05 am

Lord Foul .-^-HellRazors-^. Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Rules Council Posts: 3,543 Joined: Jan 12, 2008 Quote: it is fixed as in it has stopped you and darth and tink and others manipulating the game. Other people knew this was technically possible but chose not to do it because.. to be frank.. it smacks of cheating. Goat, did anywhare in all of my posts in this thread did I say I used it? How quick we are to judge.  Your assumtion was correct, but you did assume and that shows you're quick to judge based off of little to no info. Did I use the feature, yes I did but did not see it as an exploit and it was a well known use of the travel option. You did encounters and got scout points, simple as that during the travel. Did I think that returning while not doing all of the encounters was an exploit, no as you still had to do encounters based on your current scout skill. If you did none your current skill determined if this was the case. If your scout skill is high enough you may not have to do any encounters during a travel and still gain points, so I saw no difference with returning to town as there was still a chance to have encounters or none, just like going the full travel. Quote: Sam I just did a travel from FL-> BL and turned around after the town exit encounter,.... GOT 0 scout point though He did gain 3 points after i clicked travel, but it fell back to his original after i clicked return (right after finishing the encounter) Tinker, Yep that's how it is currently setup, which is why I've been posting here about losing everything. You don't gain as we do each encounter, it's gained all at once when you start the travel, then you lose everything if you turn around even if you do 4 encounters. Quote: With each road encounter, the scout gains more skill (this is for the skill of avoiding larger forces and meeting only smaller ones). It's only the 'journey part' that has been revoked in this fix. So you're not losing out on encounters actually processed. Sam, I have not seen a character gain more skill doing encounters in a journey/travel after the initial amount was given in all in my time here. I gain x amount of points(I check after I hit the revel button), if I did 4 encounters the skill never went up. It only went up 1 point ocassionally if I hit "process arrival" and there was none and I arrived safely, which may represent avoiding a possible encounter. You may want to verify a character actually gains skill while doing enounters during a travel as I have yet to see it and I think this is what Tinker is trying to tell you. We gain X and lose all of X even if we had 4 enounters. We don't gain X, then gain Y for doing 4 enounters and then only lose X. Another thing I find interesting is that I can do 2 travels from SS to a camp, 1 to the camp and one back to town and gain 4 scout points for 14 hours of travel and having 1 or 2 encounters. Total time used 10 minutes. But if I do a travel from Sarsfield to Badlands, do a few encounters taking 20 minutes of my time, then return home gaining 4 scout points for 10 hours of travel time, this is considered an exploit. Even better, I can do 6 travels from SS to a camp 2 hours away and gain 6 scout points for 12 hours of travel time and maybe have one encounter taking a total of 15 minutes of my time. But if I do a travel from Sars to Badlands, do 3 encounters taking 30 minutes of my time gaining 6 points then return home taking 12 hours of travel time, this is considered an exploit. If I do a complete travel from Sars to Badlands and gain 5 scout points taking 38 hours of travel time and 45 minutes of my time, this is ok. Appears to me the player doing it this way is getting screwed compared to what can be gained up north. Please explain the logic of this.. Now you see why I do not consider this an exploit. ......................... vet race1 deathrce1 wv zom circuit1 pvp1 northernsummer community circuit3 paintball55,206,126 Posted May 11, 2009, 6:28 am Last edited May 11, 2009, 7:58 am by Lord Foul

*Ninesticks* The Wombles Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 3,371 Joined: Apr 11, 2008 This all seems to me like a belated defence of the improper use of the 'return' option. The return option, I thought, is there so that those who had a disastrous travel encounter or sent their squad to the wrong destination had a chance to abort the travel rather than have to carry on through to their destination. If players felt there was an issue with the training balance then that should have been addressed through the discussion/suggestions threads, or am I wrong? Or are you seriously expecting me to believe the appropriate action when a player believes something is unbalanced is to find a work-around and do that instead? If you believe you can train up scouts faster and farther doing camp runs in SS... then do camp runs in SS. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp4 community pvp20,1,0 Posted May 11, 2009, 8:21 am Last edited May 11, 2009, 8:21 am by *Ninesticks*

Lord Foul .-^-HellRazors-^. Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Rules Council Posts: 3,543 Joined: Jan 12, 2008 *Ninesticks* said: If players felt there was an issue with the training balance then that should have been addressed through the discussion/suggestions threads, or am I wrong? Players did not believe there was an issue with training balance because the feature to return was relatively new and if they could gain just as many scout points in ss, elms, camps etc as in Sarfield to BL or BL to FL for the same amount of player time with more added risk, they were not going to make an issue of it. If it was posted as a known exploit, I think players would have stopped using it right away, but you notice no mention of it was on the boards. No one that I knew was saying "hey there is a cool exploit for the travel button, don't tell anyone". From what I saw it was an accepted part of the feature/game for the area. Considering it gave the same amount of points as you could gain in the north, I doubt many gave it a second thought. The perception simply was that there was no issue due to the balance of the points gained and the travel time used between towns. Before Sam removed it, it was more or less balanced which is why it took this long to be exposed for what Sam thinks it is. But in reality by taking it away, a balance issue has now been created. By me examining the issue further due to this thread, I can now say yes there is a training balance issue in Sars/BL/FL if 3-6 points is all you can get for traveling 38 hours when you can get just as much traveling 14 hours in a safer area. ......................... vet race1 deathrce1 wv zom circuit1 pvp1 northernsummer community circuit3 paintball55,206,126 Posted May 11, 2009, 9:12 am Last edited May 11, 2009, 9:13 am by Lord Foul

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 Lord Foul said: Quote: it is fixed as in it has stopped you and darth and tink and others manipulating the game. Other people knew this was technically possible but chose not to do it because.. to be frank.. it smacks of cheating. Goat, did anywhare in all of my posts in this thread did I say I used it? How quick we are to judge.  Your assumtion was correct, but you did assume and that shows you're quick to judge based off of little to no info. Did I use the feature, yes I did but did not see it as an exploit and it was a well known use of the travel option. You did encounters and got scout points, simple as that during the travel. Did I think that returning while not doing all of the encounters was an exploit, no as you still had to do encounters based on your current scout skill. If you did none your current skill determined if this was the case. If your scout skill is high enough you may not have to do any encounters during a travel and still gain points, so I saw no difference with returning to town as there was still a chance to have encounters or none, just like going the full travel. well lets be honest.. it was bloody obvious. Apologies if i can spot the obvious conclusion and run with it. Lord Foul said: Instead of losing 1/2 the points earned, we are losing ALL the points earned no matter how many encounters we had. I find this to be one extreme to another extreme. Interesting 'we' there. I didn't assume this was reffering to me as I dont do it. I did assume it was referring to you because you do  As you are well aware the number of potential encounters and the time spent on the road are both smaller than a full a travel. You knew this when you were doing it. Its like going to university for a couple of weeks and expecting to get the same degree as someone who has spent 3 years there. So of course you knew it was an exploit... At least Tinker has the cohones to hold his hand up and admit he knew it was an exploit. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted May 11, 2009, 9:18 am Last edited May 11, 2009, 9:21 am by goat starer

*Ninesticks* The Wombles Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 3,371 Joined: Apr 11, 2008 Lord Foul said: By me examining the issue further due to this thread, I can now say yes there is a training balance issue in Sars/BL/FL if 3-6 points is all you can get for traveling 38 hours when you can get just as much traveling 14 hours in a safer area. First question that springs to mind is whether the skill gain is tailored according to starting skill level and geographical area much as the rest of the skills are. ......................... vet wv marshal pvp4 community pvp20,1,0 Posted May 11, 2009, 10:04 am

*Tinker* BibleThumpers Anonymous Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals + Contributors Posts: 4,546 Joined: Aug 1, 2008 Sam If this is true, that even if you do 4 encounters (including a town exit) and hit the return button and get 0 scout points, then this is wrong and way out of wacky Sure it's an obvious exploit in certain places (i know about particularly FL), were you drive on asphalt for both the exit and return BUT it's god awfully dangerous place because of ambushes at <100 level A solution would be to at least give a point per encounter, then if you arrive give a bonus or partial bonus for making it, that way the people who want to be hard core can, the others don't have to be still get rewarded accordingly So if this happened you would get 2 points from doing an immediate return travel from fl, and partial bonus of 1? That's 3 whole points for 8 hours of travel, and if you wanted to risk it you could go a little farther out(if you had fuel) and this is making me think that not all maps are created equal, the fl->bl are the hardest by far, i think we should get more than 1 point on each encounters on those roads (talking about the bad ones like serpentine etc... that eat your tires), or at least get a good bonus for traveling 38 hours on it and surviving p.s please make it so we can change tires on the way ......................... vet marshal wv pvp3 zom circuit2 pvp1 cont Posted May 11, 2009, 10:08 am Last edited May 11, 2009, 10:13 am by *Tinker*

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,907 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 *Tinker* said: p.s please make it so we can change tires on the way this has been asked for many times and it is still really important. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted May 11, 2009, 10:19 am

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Quote: well i hate to say it, but to set the record straight, about 6 months ago? i figured this exploit, and talked about it to another marshall in the loby, he said it looked like an exploit, and said to ask you,  so i did and explained the whole thing as clearly as i could to you via several pms, at the end of which you said it was not an expoit... so i continued (at the time they were in the 200 i think, my memory is awful) I don't recall the discussion, but yes the exploit has been known about by many people for a long time, I should have closed it long ago but it's a slightly awkward one in the way I have it implemented. It must have been a misunderstanding if you think I said it wasn't an exploit... perhaps I said it's widely used and is considered no big deal until fixed. Quote: bust his scouts down to 20!!! And while you are at it bust his gunners down to 20 since he probably has a cheat there too!! You're not being helpful, goat. Quote: Sam I just did a travel from FL-> BL and turned around after the town exit encounter,.... GOT 0 scout point though He did gain 3 points after i clicked travel, but it fell back to his original after i clicked return (right after finishing the encounter) is this normal? It soesn't seem to say this in your post above It shouldn't be normal, no. My fix must be flawed - as I said, the whole implementation of this stuff is a bit messy. Quote: Sam, I have not seen a character gain more skill doing encounters in a journey/travel after the initial amount was given in all in my time here. I gain x amount of points(I check after I hit the revel button), if I did 4 encounters the skill never went up. It only went up 1 point ocassionally if I hit "process arrival" and there was none and I arrived safely, which may represent avoiding a possible encounter. OK, I'll check the code again. Perhaps the best thing would be to remove the automatic gain from the journey itself, and load all gains into the actual combats? Quote: Please explain the logic of this.. Quote: The return option, I thought, is there so that those who had a disastrous travel encounter or sent their squad to the wrong destination had a chance to abort the travel rather than have to carry on through to their destination. If players felt there was an issue with the training balance then that should have been addressed through the discussion/suggestions threads, or am I wrong? Or are you seriously expecting me to believe the appropriate action when a player believes something is unbalanced is to find a work-around and do that instead? thanks nine, that's my answer  ;-) Basically, yes there may be flaws in the scout training, but inventing your own work-around isn't the correct solution -> discussing how to fix it properly is the solution. Quote: p.s please make it so we can change tires on the way Ur, ye, I'll look into that. Probably as an option during the setup-phase would be simplest? (right-click car, select "replace Front Left tyre", etc.) ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted May 11, 2009, 11:32 am

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 In case you didn't see in buried in my above post, I think the best solution overall would be to remove the automatic gain from the journey itself, and load all gains into the actual combats. Scaled so it comes out similar overall to what you've been getting, of course. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted May 11, 2009, 11:37 am

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,587 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 Sam, Some of us use camp travel as a scout training exercise. In SS, once they hit a certain level then encounters are VERY rare when pirate activity is low, yet they still gain. Would these still have a chance to gain because of the "chance" of encounter? Or would "free trips" mean no gain at all? And to be clear I'm not advocating this be kept or asking for it to be removed. Either way is fine with me, but I'd like to know up front if there are NO skill gains then I'll use my high scouts for trips I want to make DOUBLE sure I don't have encounters and use low/no scouts for the fast cars to run away and get driver skill, possible ballistics, etc. (and courage, don't forget courage <g>). JL ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted May 11, 2009, 3:44 pm

Mad Mike the mad mad crushers Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 2,900 Joined: Aug 1, 2007 well sam if you travel and get an encounter that means the scout failed. Isnt the goal of the scout in travel to avoid all encounters? If a scout is able to avoid all encounters the skill must be boosted, not negated. travel no encounters scout worked very hard and won all scout rolls travel with encounters scout failed in some way wouldnt that be the way it is? ......................... vet wv Posted May 11, 2009, 4:04 pm

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