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Discussion - 'No More Free First Repair'

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,782 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Apparently there's some unhappiness about the recent change I made which has gotten rid of the 'free first repair' of chassis so they can get to 100% health after they have first been looted, even if they were badly damaged in the fight that captured them. So I figured it best to start a discussion..... ------------------------------- Some arguments I have heard are: 1) it has essentially rendered damaged loot worthless... you can carefully demo a car with a flechette gun and still find it has perm chassis damage (my response: personally, I don't think a 97% chassis should be considered worthless. It is 97% as good in all respects (speed, handling, strength) - you'd be hard pressed to actually notice the difference in the field, in fact 2) it means that chassis produced in camp or brought via HP are now worth much more.. (my response: this may be true, although it really depends on whether people's over-strong focus on having 100% equipment changes) 3) it seems to me to be a complete shift away from the focus of the game being on looting cars towards buying them. (my response: slightly true perhaps, although I think saying it's a 'complete' shift is pushing it..) 4) it will have an inflationary effect on prices of rares as more of them are damaged.  (my response: it will also mean that partially-damaged stuff gets passed down to other players, and stop people hoarding stuff and start using it more; this in turn will help the unbalanced manufacturing economy. It will actually let me release more rares into the game if people start losing them more) 5) it forces people down one style of scouting.. ie. kill the people in the first 10 cars so the last 2 demo untouched... people should be free to choose how much of a 'killer' they are (my response: not sure, what do others think?) ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Oct 28, 2009, 11:07 am

Karz Master Alpha Junkers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Storytellers + IP Posts: 2,375 Joined: Nov 13, 2006 People are sensitive to their cars being perma-damaged, Sam. That's how deep the extent of attachment you have created between players and their gangers or vehicles. A monster in Darkwind is born Seriously though, it's true people are attached to their cars. Just...something about car ownership in this game that makes people love their cars. Ok, I speak for myself at least. Even till now, I'm still sad that Selina can't be repaired beyond 100%, even though she's saved my gangers numerous times. In fact, I prioritize her above all my other cars, preferring to save her than my other Apache Serena. Oh and you can tell how strong my attachment is when I prefer to use article "her" instead of "it" Personally, I'm fine either way, as I realized that 97% is, as you said, "it is 97% as good in all respects (speed, handling, strength) - you'd be hard pressed to actually notice the difference in the field, in fact". If I have to nitpick an issue, it would be that the 97% is sooooo jarring compared to 100%, and as I said, for me it's because of my attachment to my cars in Darkwind. Personally, I have no strong opinions regarding this. I would, though, like to see mechs being able to have the spec to repair perma-damage, albeit at the cost of 2x longer time - so players have to weigh the pros and cons between selling the perm-damaged chassis, repairing them at 2x the time needed for non perma-damaged, or not doing anything to them. ......................... vet wv zom Posted Oct 28, 2009, 11:14 am

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,908 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 I raisd this with Sam following a discussion with Ninesticks. My response to sams responses would be this... I understand sams points above but i cant see any great benefit from the change where i can see lots of down sides... if there is no real advantage why do it? I cant see what the change was intended to achieve... If there is no benefit then wven if teh effects Sam lists are not as serious as I think they are then it shouldnt be done. anecdotally i can only say that i have been selling cars to the shop (damaged apaches and landys) that i would have been repairing and putting in the market because i think people in SS will wait for a car to appear in the shop rather than buy a 'broken' one. as long as there are 100% vehicles available in the markets and shops this will render any loot car damaged in combat pretty much worthless. I would like to see us move to an economy where looting cars or winning them in races is the main way of securing even the more common chassis types. The change seems to me to push us away from that towards an economy that is based on buying cars with HPs or buying them in camp. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Oct 28, 2009, 11:22 am

*Rezeak* The Dark Knights Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Marshals + Storytellers Posts: 2,377 Joined: Aug 8, 2009 I don't really have any strong opinions on any of them except argument 5. In my opinion killing 10 cars to get the 2 best ones is a decent way to go. Most people in darkwind (that I have come across) hunt pirates. And so, Killing everyone earns you hero points, bounties and some 100% chassis'. Happy days all round. Edit. ------------------ Went on a scout yesterday and saw a pirate escape at town gates, don't think this should happen, as everyone in SS hates pirates. ......................... vet wv deathrceL1 marshal pvp2 zom pvp3 Posted Oct 28, 2009, 11:25 am Last edited Oct 28, 2009, 11:31 am by Rezeak

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,908 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 i have never been very happy about the whole killing people bit.. it never sits well with my RP mindset. I would like to see pirates demo quicker when they get thoroughly beaten (ie when the damage they are inflicting is substantially less than they are taking) rather than on the basis of blue/ red text. never been overly happy with a lot of the blue text if i am honest... seems a bit macabre and sick. Its not ok to say F*** in the lobby but it is ok to put stuff about peoples jawbones beinf rammed through their heads? thats a little weird. ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Oct 28, 2009, 11:29 am Last edited Oct 28, 2009, 11:30 am by goat starer

*Rezeak* The Dark Knights Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Marshals + Storytellers Posts: 2,377 Joined: Aug 8, 2009 well goat, i'm part of the generation which is growing up with games where putting bullets through peoples animated, pixilated skulls is part of everyday life. so a bit of text with "face explodes into a gazillion pieces" doesn't really affect me Edit. ----------- just to emphasise the point, Resident evil 5 just came through the letterbox ......................... vet wv deathrceL1 marshal pvp2 zom pvp3 Posted Oct 28, 2009, 11:34 am Last edited Oct 28, 2009, 11:42 am by Rezeak

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,782 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 goat said: I would like to see pirates demo quicker when they get thoroughly beaten (ie when the damage they are inflicting is substantially less than they are taking) rather than on the basis of blue/ red text. That will make wilderness combats easier though goat, I know you for one reckon they're too easy already. goat said: if there is no real advantage why do it? I cant see what the change was intended to achieve... If there is no benefit then wven if teh effects Sam lists are not as serious as I think they are then it shouldnt be done. To me, this is actually a more persuasive argument than your original ones  Why make the change? (1) it was actually a bug fix. The original 'free fix' was not originally intended, but I left it in as nobody complained. (2) See below.. it's about creating a 'wear-out' economy. Actually I still think we're being over-generous letting stuff only lose 3% per fix. Something like losing 20% of the amount actually being repaired at the time might be more realistic and better for the economy. goat said: I would like to see us move to an economy where looting cars or winning them in races is the main way of securing even the more common chassis types. Me too. I'd also like to see a more realistic and dynamic 'wear-out' cycle for equipment. In the real world, if you smash your car in a bad crash or whack it repeatedly with rocket launchers, it's never going to be the same again. Plus, wearing out of equipment would go a long way to helping the economy work better. goat said: The change seems to me to push us away from that towards an economy that is based on buying cars with HPs or buying them in camp. There's other ways to achieve the above though goat. What about if the NPC shops started to deliver less and less equipment? What if the stuff you bought in the NPC shops or made in camp was already at less than 100%? Everyone is ok with perma-death of characters. Why? Because the game always worked that way. But they don't like perma-death of equipment. Why? IMO mostly because they're used to not having it, not because it's actually a bad thing to have. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Oct 28, 2009, 11:44 am Last edited Oct 28, 2009, 11:51 am by *sam*

The Paranoid Tourist Precipitous Treachery Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,828 Joined: Jan 12, 2007 At first I thought that I'd hate this change, but now I'm rather indifferent. I run less-than-100% vehicles all of the time. While I feel that I do notice a difference on some of them in terms of durability, I still run them anyway if they're something that I want or can't easily replace. Goat's argument of "what's the real advantage?" is about as good of one as I've heard, though, as the only thing that this change seems to do is lower our standards (eventually). There will be a whole generation of players who find 100% chassis to be a luxury, and are happy to use chassis at 90%. . . maybe even below! But is that an advantage or just a change? I guess that my typical style of play makes this change work for me, as I often annihilate the first several vehicles just to watch the rest fall by themselves, so I end up bringing home 100% chassis, anyway. ......................... vet gateautumn gwextrav raceL1 wv e2g0,2,0 Posted Oct 28, 2009, 12:01 pm

The Paranoid Tourist Precipitous Treachery Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,828 Joined: Jan 12, 2007 *sam* said: But they don't like perma-death of equipment. Why? IMO mostly because they're used to not having it, not because it's actually a bad thing to have. It's because equipment is often not easily replaceable, and, under a wear-out system, hardly avoidable. If I lost even just 1% of my fire engine every time that I took it out I wouldn't take it out. I don't know when or if I'll ever get a new one so I don't want to ruin the one that I have. Now, if I knew that I could get a new fire engine every 10 scouts, I might risk one to get one, but then where's the thrill of the hunt? Suddenly that super rare chassis is common. Wearing vehicles out sounds like something which would just lead to more hoarding, as I won't want to take a near-irreplaceable fire engine unless I've got another one in my garage to keep for "emergencies" or even just as a trophy. ......................... vet gateautumn gwextrav raceL1 wv e2g0,2,0 Posted Oct 28, 2009, 12:06 pm

*goat starer* Special Circumstances Darkwind Guru Evan Reds Faction Group: Contributors Posts: 10,908 Joined: Oct 29, 2007 *sam* said: goat said: I would like to see pirates demo quicker when they get thoroughly beaten (ie when the damage they are inflicting is substantially less than they are taking) rather than on the basis of blue/ red text. That will make wilderness combats easier though goat, I know you for one reckon they're too easy already. dont agree with that... pounding people till they die is perfectly easy... anything that made it advantageous to NOT damage any loot cars would mean more demoed cars driving around and if you ask any player how they lose characters it is almost always to demoed vehicles. sam said: (2) See below.. it's about creating a 'wear-out' economy. Actually I still think we're being over-generous letting stuff only lose 3% per fix. Something like losing 20% of the amount actually being repaired at the time might be more realistic and better for the economy. I agree with that.. but if you dont restrict the flow from camps and shops all you will get is a replace economy. I would get rid of the shops entirely.. for everything.. ammo, chassis weapons.... perhaps have a trickle through of ammo (proper barter... make ammo and fuel be worth a fortune... now you have a hammer we finally have a weapon that needs no ammo... great!) i would allow camps to make ammo, food, water but not chassis or weapons. but if you are not going to do all of that (which i dont believe you can because of teh ####storm of protest it will get from vets then implementing the permadamage stuff adds nothing because people can simply not use permadamaged vehicles and weapons. to make that work you need scarcity. Implementing a bit of it just adds a hassle to people without fundamentally adding anything to the game. I am a bit worried that you are going down a route of incremental changes towards a vision that will just mean years oof wrangling. If it were me i woudl take the hit now.. lose some of the older subscribers but make the game you want... ......................... vet wv zom pvp4 cont community deathrceL1 marshal pvp3 pvp2 Posted Oct 28, 2009, 12:07 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,782 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Quote: I am a bit worried that you are going down a route of incremental changes towards a vision that will just mean years oof wrangling. If it were me i woudl take the hit now.. lose some of the older subscribers but make the game you want... Hmm, yeah this is what Zothen always tells me too. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Oct 28, 2009, 12:16 pm

The Paranoid Tourist Precipitous Treachery Darkwind Guru Slavers Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,828 Joined: Jan 12, 2007 Maybe you should just leave this game more-or-less as it is, then create Darkwind II: Sam's Vision.  ......................... vet gateautumn gwextrav raceL1 wv e2g0,2,0 Posted Oct 28, 2009, 12:41 pm

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 *sam* said: Quote: I am a bit worried that you are going down a route of incremental changes towards a vision that will just mean years oof wrangling. If it were me i woudl take the hit now.. lose some of the older subscribers but make the game you want... Hmm, yeah this is what Zothen always tells me too. And it is a point very well made, i have no problems with perna damage, i would have no problem with higher perma damage. In RL i drive a ten year old peugeot, its a pile of crap i would estimate the chasis to be 90% and engine around 85% of what it was when it came of the assembly line, i live in suburban Leicester with no aurora and very little guns ( it is leicester so there are a few ). My point is we drive these DW vehicles over terrain that would kill most family cars, drop them over ridges, roll them, get them shot, continiously change weapon mounts and engines and have collision damage. And still some complain that there vehicles cant be repaired back to 100 % I hesitate to use the real world analogy as it doesnt always sit right with me, BUT in game terms, these vehicles would be useless after a few scouts however good your mechanics are, they certainly dont run a kwik fit with untold new parts sitting in wrappers do they. In my humble opinion, perma damage should raise and raise by a significant amount, people would have the choice to hoard still but pay the costs in garage fees, new vehicles should become as rare to purchase as some are as rare to find in the wild ( camps should be restricted to the amount of super rares they produce each game year, and never be able to manufacture a brand new chassis, they are not GM after all . People wanted individuality in there vehicles, take them out with 96% v8s and 95% chassis, i do in the hope there long service will gain them the respect they rightly deserve, the damge makes me love them even more and respect there abilities still, in some ways i get more upset getting damage to an already damaged loved vehicle than one that is pristine, as pristine shouldn't really happen in the apocalypse after all. Demo killing its tedious and mostly pointless, its an means to an end and one that isn't giving much back to the game. We all know to kill a marauder but why should it have to be killed 'red dead' its just grinding...it makes a decent fun scout deteriorate into ' ok what do i have to kill now' mentality, and then sit and pound, pound, pound. ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted Oct 28, 2009, 12:55 pm Last edited Oct 28, 2009, 1:01 pm by *Grograt*

Ivan Kerensky Les Loups Gris Autodueller Civs Faction Group: Members Posts: 419 Joined: Mar 1, 2008 Well 2 things : 1- Scouting are too easy when player mass murder heap of AI cars with indirect weapons/ massive concentration of fire from unreachable/hard to reach position. Scout aren't that much easy in flat area when AI and players cars are in more related power. 2- I would agree that 97% isn't so bad as 100%, except that the 97% car will never escape the 100% one. Wich isn't something I woul call inoquous. Sam, would you tell me if you are using Flat percentile or Geometrical percentile for effectiveness ? if using flat percentile 97% state produce 97% effect, with geometrical 97% state produce 97%x97% effect = 94%. Flat isn't such a big deal but is a bit dry. Geometrical is better because it give more importance to higher percentile and when things start going low they break faster. All in all I would say : keep the first repair 100%, it make sense. And if 97% isn't so a big deal after all, why care downing it to 97% ? the argument go both way. I dont think the first repair have any effect on hoarding of car. Ok you can fix it from whatever state you got him to 100% WHEN YOU LOOT HIM (not sales or trade, even juste the first time for all the car life would be better). But that means the next time you use it and it is hit he go lower than 100% and you cant fix it back to 100%. So you dont use it not to have it damaged. Now if you cant repair it back to 100% what is the difference ? you still wont use it in dangerous situation because it is not 100% best efficient and you will keep it in hoard just for show and safe action. The only way you are going to solve this is to put a life expectancy on every game part (engine, tyres, chassis), with extra maintenance cost being paid for thoses to keep 100% when they go past this duration. That is what it is in real life... There is some chassis out there that are 100 years old, what they cost to maintain this way is an arm and a leg and you probably wont be able to use them to battle either. Frankly what really is in balance is : game balance and your vision of what game attrition should be. I dont think you can produce a balanced game environnement for a very simple reason : the real thing isn't balanced at all. There is over-production, inflation, deflation, engenired scarcity, crash, the whole economical thing is completely instable, you cant expect to have a stable one in a post-apo world. ......................... vet wv Posted Oct 28, 2009, 1:09 pm

Ivan Kerensky Les Loups Gris Autodueller Civs Faction Group: Members Posts: 419 Joined: Mar 1, 2008 And the easy way to eliminate Démo killing is to simply have NPC gang not using all pristine cars... just like player. have a small share of them pristine and the rest, used... ......................... vet wv Posted Oct 28, 2009, 1:11 pm

Barbu Blackbeards Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 106 Joined: Oct 8, 2009 I think that would be nice. I mean that 100% chassis would really worth something being rarer and it would make it more logic that there is much more damaged cars than brand new one! ......................... vet wv Posted Oct 28, 2009, 1:34 pm

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,605 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 In direct response to Sam's points... 1) disagree with it being worthless - I use things down to 95% (91% in one particular renowned vehicle). I understand others might not want to use them, and they have that choice, but it becomes somewhat of a money sink to continue replacing with 100% gear. 2) agree with Sam in that 100% chassis value is dependent on the buyer. Yes, produced items and HP items are "newer," but like you say you can have that be less than 100% as well to offset. 3) is the focus on looting anyway? In SS when I was new, yes, but down south looting cars is secondary. I *always* save room for the crew in the main vehicles so I can drop loot on a return encounter. My playstyle is already to demo/blue/then kill for bounties and if loot is there fine; if not fine. 4) agree with Sam's response. We've already seen this to a degree with V8's in SS... 5) I disagree that it forces to one style of scouting. I will go further to say that scouting "for loot" is not the only reason to scout... From camp, I like to loot items that break down for better CPS/EPS (rockets & CR's mainly). Phoenixes and Sunrises are nice to repair and drive back to SS to sell. Pickups and Mooses bring less, but also worth it. From town, it's to either help keep piracy down for easier travels or for hero points. I will say that I loot what I can - no doubt - but that's not the ONLY reason to scout. Gameplay is still king. ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted Oct 28, 2009, 1:35 pm

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,605 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 goat starer said: but if you are not going to do all of that (which i dont believe you can because of teh ####storm of protest it will get from vets then implementing the permadamage stuff adds nothing because people can simply not use permadamaged vehicles and weapons. For the record, I was here when perma-damage was discussed and then implemented. Yes, there was some backlash, but it wasn't as bad as people expected and everyone adjusted. I think this will be the same way. ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted Oct 28, 2009, 1:43 pm

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,605 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 Ivan Kerensky said: 1- Scouting are too easy when player mass murder heap of AI cars with indirect weapons/ massive concentration of fire from unreachable/hard to reach position. Scout aren't that much easy in flat area when AI and players cars are in more related power. I agree with this, but it's also more fun to "win" most of the time. The AI has improved, though, and will "stop and regroup" when they face a firing line. They will also turn and flee more, or at least get out of range. Not perfect, but better... Quote: 2- I would agree that 97% isn't so bad as 100%, except that the 97% car will never escape the 100% one. I assume you mean in a flat out race? Driver skill has MUCH more to say about speed and handling, I believe, than 3% of a chassis or engine... Quote: The only way you are going to solve this is to put a life expectancy on every game part (engine, tyres, chassis), with extra maintenance cost being paid for thoses to keep 100% when they go past this duration. That is what it is in real life... There is some chassis out there that are 100 years old, what they cost to maintain this way is an arm and a leg and you probably wont be able to use them to battle either. Based on Sam's other posts, I think that's the goal here - to help build a "wear out" world... ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted Oct 28, 2009, 1:48 pm

Jety Cuddle Fiesta Darkwind Guru Badlands Truckstop Faction Group: Members Posts: 910 Joined: May 9, 2008 I don't like it, but I recognize that it is probably a very good change. And in the big picture this isn't about a few percent on your chassis, it's about the total mindset you want to have in Darkwind. It is probably better to make one big dramatic change than many wrangling little ones. However, being the diplomat that you are, this might be the proper time to give something back that the players have been clamoring for for quite a while: the ability to customize cars. With chassis percentages, if every car is a unique snowflake, why not allow us to make them truly unique. A chassis reinforcement here, an extra luggage compartment there, a larger engine cause you welded the front of a Marley onto the back of an alpha. Whatever. I think good positive changes are the good way to offset negative (for players) changes. Many players would love the ability to tweak the existing fixed parameters of the chassis/engines, and I think it would add a great layer of depth. ......................... vet wv Posted Oct 28, 2009, 2:10 pm Last edited Oct 28, 2009, 2:10 pm by Jety

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