end of PVP leagues, revisiting the prizes
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simonmaxhill Posted Apr 17, 2010, 10:15 pm |
I think revisiting the PVP leagues and formatting them differently is important.
I'm strongly of the opinion that putting AI into the leagues is a terrible solution. Right now the third place winner of the Div I league is getting, for fighting 2 PVP events, the same training bonus of the Div IV players that each fought three or four events and beat out some other players. Instead of the AI solution, let's find a better one that makes players actually work for their bonuses. How about: League will not run without at least five players. Bonuses for a five player league are half of the current baseline league awards. Each additional player increases the prizes by a percentage that would make a 10 player league (or more) equal to the current prize. Make the bottom two players win absolutely nothing, no matter the number of players in the league. This will prevent players from simply putting in their entry fee, paying bounties or forfeiting every PVP match and gaining a modest (but still powerful) training and production bonus. I'm absolutely against any ideas that the rewards should be retroactive (it was an experiment, let's live with the results) but I think it's imperative that next time around nobody gets a free ride. |
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*Longo* Posted Apr 18, 2010, 3:35 pm |
Hi Simon -
Good to hear an opinion on the Pvp League. The League is being discussed in the RC right now, so all opinions will help. Remember with prizes -" Note that prizes are reduced by 5 percent for each player-owned team less than 10 that compete in the division.. for example, 8 player-owned teams would mean 90 percent prizes." So D1 teams (2 of them) are only getting 60% of whats listed. There is alot of issues with the league...tough to schedule, not enough teams... but some good things to |
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simonmaxhill Posted Apr 18, 2010, 9:17 pm |
No, I get that the D1 teams are getting only 60% of what's listed. But 60% of third place in D1 for losing two PVP matching and winning zero gives more benefit than taking third place in the D4 league after beating out 5 other players in PVP.
If I'd entered the D1 league and simply paid the bounty on all my matches, then did 6 PvE matches with exactly even CR (something that anyone in the game should be able to manage) I'd gain more than slogging through the D4 experience, losing cars and characters, etc. If we're going to structure the prizes for the PVP league this way, we might as well just implement a "throw money at the training center, get training bonus" feature for the game and kill the D1 league altogether. That's my point about the prizes. Since we haven't adequately populated five divisions, let's shrink them down to 2-3 divisions and expand once those divisions are always full. Let's scale the prizes properly so that there's zero incentive for joining an empty division and more incentive for joining a full division. |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Apr 18, 2010, 9:38 pm |
Definitely a good point you have Simon, not sure reduction in leagues is the only answer that would help though. Perhaps a review of the scaled reductions and increasing them would go some way towards addressing this.
A lot depends on balancing how much take up there is whilst still offering reasonable steps between the leagues. If we reduce the leagues which ones go, how big will the steps be between leagues, will it be too much of a step up/down for that team to remain viable and so on. |
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FireFly Posted Apr 18, 2010, 9:44 pm |
Simon, The reason why we did this, from as far as I can remember, is that everyone dosent want to play in the lower, more noob (No Ill intent) friendly leagues, but there aren't enough people willing to put the gangers on the line for the higher divs, so we should just ignore the people who want to play up there?
What you are saying is a "What if" anyway, Up in league one, the battle between longo and us was a pretty damned good one, and risky, he brought good gangers and 2 buzzers to the table, we brought good gangers and 3bpu's, now, if you take away even more of the rewards, since its already cut to 60%, wont that lose some incentive for more people to join the higher tiers, not everyone fights in the PvP league for the pure pleasure of PvP, hell, I had to talk both of my teammates into this. By the way, have you yet found a case of someone actually doing this, bountying their way out of fight? Not saying your wrong thou, please don't get me wrong. |
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*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Apr 18, 2010, 9:52 pm |
I'm pretty sure the only reason for the AI was because sam was in a rush to get the PvP league running for this evan year, I don't think it's intended to be a permanent solution | ||||||||||
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*Ninesticks* Posted Apr 18, 2010, 9:53 pm |
If a player sets a squad but fails to turn up FF they pay a bounty. | ||||||||||
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*jimmylogan* Posted Apr 18, 2010, 9:55 pm |
Simon - some of this is a moot point... After year one, the ONLY way to enter the league is in Div 5. | ||||||||||
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simonmaxhill Posted Apr 18, 2010, 10:11 pm |
Jimmy-
Don't quite know what you mean. Maybe I don't understand how leagues work? FF- We definitely need to balance the risk/reward in Div I in a way. I think if the rewards scaled up much faster than in the other divs, it'd make sense. So there'd be no reward for winning 3rd in a 3 person Div I PVP league and only a modest reward for taking 1st. But in a 4 person PVP league it'd be double that, and in a 5 person PVP league it'd be double that. If we somehow got a 10 person Div I PVP league up and running, whoever took first place would win some kind of spectacular, terrifying bonus. It'd be the kind of bonus that would look very game-unbalancing on paper, except when you factored in the fact that it's pretty unlikely that someone would win a 10 player Div I league without losing one or two 150+ skill gangers. Nine/Rez- I totally get that the AI system was rushed through. That's why this post came at the end of the PVP league and not at the beginning (I've known all along that putting AI would result in this - but understood the importance of getting the leagues off the ground, however imperfectly.) |
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*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Apr 18, 2010, 10:15 pm |
What Jimmy's saying is that everyone will have to start in division 5 next year, and work their way up.
Not sure if thhis is happening, but I definately remember hearing it being said somewhere at the begining of he PvP leagues. |
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simonmaxhill Posted Apr 18, 2010, 10:32 pm |
wow, really?
I'm not even sure I have characters that qualify for Div 5. Have to shift a lot of people around and around. So there'll be only one PVP league division, that being Div 5? Or does it mean that you have to start out in Div 5 and work your way up by winning? |
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*jimmylogan* Posted Apr 18, 2010, 11:14 pm |
If you weren't in it last year and you're just starting out, you'll have to start in Div 5. The FIRST YEAR ONLY you could buy into the upper divisions. | ||||||||||
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simonmaxhill Posted Apr 18, 2010, 11:53 pm |
Is the notion that in the long run, people will be shifted upwards in division until winners of upper division have only the option of being in the division above?
In the long term, that might work very well. For the short term, it's going to give a big damn free ride to the upper div people. |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Apr 19, 2010, 12:24 am |
Well there will be some promotions and relegations before the start of the next season based on this season's results. And yep, players will have to enter via Division 5 unless there is a change to that.
Your point about changes to the scaling of prizes is certainly valid and I am sure will figure in the end of league discussion. |
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*Longo* Posted Apr 19, 2010, 12:45 am |
I made the Pvp League poll in this thread to hopefully gage how many people we will have for next year. | ||||||||||
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*jimmylogan* Posted Apr 19, 2010, 12:51 am |
And it cost them a TREMENDOUS amount of money to join the upper divisions this time. Not that money really means much in the long run, but there was a greater buy in cost. |
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simonmaxhill Posted Apr 19, 2010, 2:23 am |
Jimmy-
I think we have very different ideas about what "tremendous" means. If the buy in had been 10 million, I'd still have this complaint. But from what I remember, it was a mil to buy in, and that's pretty paltry, especially if it means that they get these bonuses not only for a single league season, but until they get weeded out of the Div I (or II or III) league. To look at the rewards/buy in from another angle, imagine reading this in the "suggestions" box: "I think for 10 million a player should get a lifetime training form bonus of 4 and a 4% production bonus on their camp." I think there are a large number of players who'd take that offer. And since the PVP leagues weren't intended to function that way, it seems like an important part of the system to revamp. |
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*sam* Posted Apr 19, 2010, 8:42 am |
To me, an obvious way to fix this issue would be to revise the "5% reduction per player team less than 10" and change it to maybe 10%. | ||||||||||
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Shark Posted Apr 19, 2010, 9:10 am |
When are the signups I want in yo | ||||||||||
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Apr 19, 2010, 9:53 am |
A smaller pot for fewer combatants sounds reasonable, 10% sounds just about right imo. |
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FireFly Posted Apr 19, 2010, 10:06 am |
20% of... 1st $3000000 25 25%
600000k 5... 5... Yup, that is a high price for the top league, that wouldn't even make me back the money it cost to make the team. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Apr 19, 2010, 10:40 am |
I think the 'pay in' to league will be different this season, from what i can gather there wont be any straight into top spot.
Also look at what you have gained in prizes, forget the money, you would easily have paid double that for those gains, wouldn't you. |
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FireFly Posted Apr 19, 2010, 10:56 am |
2mil for 5% production bonus and 5 skillpoints?
No, definitely no. |
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*Longo* Posted Apr 19, 2010, 11:19 am |
Gotta say I would not return to D1 for this. When I battled FF and his teamates, I nearly lost this guy - John 'SPEEDY' Lopez Character ID: 114226 Personal Details Gang Longos Merry Men Age 25 Gender Male General Health Good Location Longoville Tag Custom Skin None Skills & Abilities Strength 43 Dexterity 28 Speed 83 Leadership 108 Courage 127 Driving 15 Gunnery 125 Large Guns 147 Ballistics 50 Hand Guns 34 (33) First Aid 131 Weekly Wages $950 Training Specialisms Rapidshot Special Skill Level 2 Field First Aid Special Skill Level 2 Heavy Weapons Special Skill Rapid Reloading Special Skill Level 2 Motivator Special Skill He was bleeding heavily, and I was very lucky he didnt die. Im not gonna gonna risk these type of guys for peanuts....sorry |
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*sam* Posted Apr 19, 2010, 11:20 am |
Yes, the fee to join the top div was a once-off. You won't be charged a 2nd time. |
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*sam* Posted Apr 19, 2010, 11:21 am |
Starting next Sunday. There's a two-week "pre-season" when you enter your team into div 5. and set your preferred combat times. |
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FireFly Posted Apr 19, 2010, 11:23 am |
And Sam, even if you do change it to be worthlessly nerfed prices, will we still get the 5% reduced prices this year? |
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*sam* Posted Apr 19, 2010, 11:45 am |
FF, any changes we decide on for next year won't affect this year. | ||||||||||
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simonmaxhill Posted Apr 19, 2010, 6:58 pm |
I guess the main point of my post is:
Divisions under 5 players should have the prizes massively reduced Divisions over 5 players should see the prizes increase exponentially as you reach numbers over 5. This will encourage large, thriving PVP leagues and reward risk taking appropriately. There are surely other ways of making the leagues both more viable and also more appealing to players, but this is what I noticed and thought up. |
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FireFly Posted Apr 19, 2010, 7:15 pm |
But that way, the leagues with the lower CR and lower skillcaps will be the most rewarding ones... | ||||||||||
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simonmaxhill Posted Apr 19, 2010, 7:18 pm |
FF-
Not necessarily. The rewards for the upper division leagues should start higher and scale up faster. So winning a 5 person Div I league would give you much more of a bonus than a 5 person Div V league. But losing a 3 person Div I league would give you absolutely nothing and taking 1st or second place would give you a fairly meager reward. The idea of increasing the prizes exponentially as more players sign up is to pack many players into leagues. So if you get 4 people into Div I, the appeal for the 5th would be strong, for the 6th would be even strong, and so on. |
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Flaming savage Posted Apr 19, 2010, 8:37 pm |
I think no prizez should be given to a team unless they compeat in a set number of events. | ||||||||||
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Procyon Posted Apr 20, 2010, 12:24 am |
On that note, I think there should be a longer time to be able to accept events between players. I'd like to see it be 20 days rather than 10. Communication between players to set up a time then getting schedules to jive can be a real pain. |
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simonmaxhill Posted Apr 20, 2010, 1:07 am |
speaking of prizes...
anyone know how the hell the training bonus for the league works? I don't really know how to claim it. |
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*sam* Posted Apr 20, 2010, 8:32 am |
You will find an extra option in the Training section of your character sheets when viewing them in the Tavern. When a character has been selected for this 'Special Training', you'll find they gain the boosted training on a Friday in the normal way. So make sure you set them training the correct skill. |
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Flaming savage Posted Apr 20, 2010, 9:14 am |
Have the leagues actually ended? My team came fourth in Div 4 but havn't received anything yet. | ||||||||||
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*sam* Posted Apr 20, 2010, 9:35 am |
Prizes are given out this weekend, at the same time that the next season is set up, promotion/demotion etc. | ||||||||||
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Flaming savage Posted Apr 20, 2010, 9:44 am |
K thanks. | ||||||||||
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Apr 20, 2010, 9:45 am |
So is the league a fresh start ?, is everyone going to remain in divisions ? are those promoted and demoted teams still going to run,or do they have to reapply this season ? are all new teams joining div 5 for no cost ?
These and other questions are brought to you by the letter 'Y' |
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*sam* Posted Apr 20, 2010, 9:51 am |
I think these things have been explained before (somewhere).. but anyway..
Div's I thru IV are auto-filled based on promotion/relegation of top/bottom 3 teams in each, and the 4 teams 'in the middle' of a division table remaining in that division. No entry fee and no way to join these divisions unless you're promoted into them. Div V is initially empty, and is filled on a first-come-first-served basis, with a $50k entry fee. Only one player team is being relegated from a league this season. Cough. The Renegade Rollers. Cough. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Apr 20, 2010, 9:59 am |
Oh thanks for actually naming US 
will team rosters be cleared can new members be brought into the team and old members removed ( If they wish Sam  )
Can Team names be reset for new season |
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*Marc5iver* marcgillespie55@gmail.com Posted Apr 20, 2010, 10:11 am |
Will we be able to hold off on applying the special training if we choose to? The reason I ask is that I have a character who maxed at 96. I am now training him at Scouting and would like to add the 4 points I won to his Scouting skill to get him up to 100 but he is only at 76 right now. Running him non-stop on courier runs. |
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FireFly Posted Apr 20, 2010, 10:20 am |
Does that just mean we get to stay in Div 2, because that's fine by me, since multiple teams are allowed in different divs, unless that is getting changed? 
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*sam* Posted Apr 20, 2010, 10:21 am |
Yes. Any hypothetical team that's hypothetically relegated from Div IV no longer exists, of course.
Yes. And you can change your preferred combat times. All of the above happens during the two-week "pre season" that start this Sunday. |
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*sam* Posted Apr 20, 2010, 10:22 am |
Yep. Your special training is only used when you decide to use it. |
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*sam* Posted Apr 20, 2010, 10:22 am |
You'll get kicked out of the team that you're a member but not owner of, FF. |
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FireFly Posted Apr 20, 2010, 10:28 am |
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FireFly Posted Apr 20, 2010, 12:55 pm |
Alright, just needed to know, because...
Some Slacker The Evil Chaos Me We are all the members of both the Maurading Mutants and the Big Meanies, the winners of both Div 1&2, so thats whats worrying me. Also, about the skill boosts, they are still tradeable right, and there is no expire date is there? |
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*sam* Posted Apr 20, 2010, 1:20 pm |
You'll have to find some new team members.. as owner of one, you'll be removed as member of the other. Skill boosts will be tradeable, yes. Not yet fully implemented but targeted for end of week before they get distributed! No expire date: correct. |
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FireFly Posted Apr 20, 2010, 2:38 pm |
Then I pray for the ability for that group to stay in Div 4, I speak for the whole group
Either that or you'll have to disband it completely, we 3 fight together. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Apr 20, 2010, 4:00 pm |
Disband it and start in Div 5 with all us mere mortals 
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FireFly Posted Apr 20, 2010, 4:16 pm |
But that wont let us use my winning BPU setup... that longo ripped of
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Apr 20, 2010, 4:20 pm |
you can...just one of em though
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*sam* Posted Apr 20, 2010, 4:29 pm |
Ripping off winning designs doesn't ensure victory, however. I have personal proof. | ||||||||||
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Apr 20, 2010, 4:52 pm |
Oh that we do Samuel now if i could rip off those capped at 90 gangers
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