Problems with PvP
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Serephe Posted Apr 24, 2010, 4:32 am |
Item imbalances
First issue I have is that in a PvP situation, the weapons really aren't balanced. Weapons are causing recoil when they shouldn't (HMGs knocking cars into the air, really?!) some of the heavy weapons have enough recoil to practically disable ANY vehicle while killing it rapidly (looking at you CC/TG), ballistics weapons seemingly ignore skill checks (0 skill mortar hits at 200m? Not a problem. Try hitting at 120m with a car rifle with 0 skill.) Then there's the rares. Heavy lasers, lasers, RGMs and to a lesser extent mortars and tank guns. These are seen as near-unobtainable items, and rightly so... replacing them when lost is an enormous effort, either in time or money. The problem comes when the "new" guys start PvPing, or even just run around with their PvP flag set to open. They feel tough with their new buzzers armed with cannons and heavy car rifles and such, and attack Ninesticks or Goat or Latte etc. Or get jumped by me. Suddenly they find their 100+ gunners and cannons and buzzers are completely ineffective, because they're getting hit at 200-300 meters by these weapons... which are doing large amounts of damage. While the RGM damage seems fairly balanced by itself, the knockback provided by it and the range and accuracy are enormous issues. The heavy laser doesn't have knockback, but it practically hits harder than a car cannon, doesn't need to reload and can set vehicles randomly on fire. Mortars can pound them from over 200 meters away out of line of sight, with the explosions lifting their car off the ground slightly making it near impossible to escape. Tank guns... the only issue I have with them is that once in range, it only takes 1 or sometimes 2 turns to disable a vehicle. ANY vehicle. They also randomly set vehicles on fire. As for chassis, well... we can all see the problems there. How many people use hearses, chevaliers, chompers etc? Pretty much nobody besides the new guys. It's either Apache/Windsor/Phoenix or Firetruck/Buzzer/BPU/Osprey really. There's some exceptions of course, due to player taste, but there's so much unused vehicles out there. Where are the 10 bulk guns to make subcompacts a viable scouting vehicle? All weapons need to be brought more closely into line with each other... long distance weapons should have less recoil (HCR/laser, good in this, RGM bad), high damage weapons should be less accurate (ATG good, CC bad), only very close range weapons, or dropped weapons (perhaps even a fire spray weapon like the smokescreen) should have a chance to set a vehicle on fire. Fire shouldn't be a random chance to explode, it should slowly get worse over time to explode unless a gang member is told to put it out. Vehicles it's even harder, as quite a lot of vehicles have buggy suspension, or buggy hitboxes, etc. But basically, top speeds should be lowered slightly all around... with each chassis having a unique top speed depending on engine etc. SUVs and trucks, the heavier vehicles, need a much more limited top speed, possibly even below 100mph. And ideally, no weapon would destroy a car in 1 turn. Perhaps a buggy or a cycle, but not a muscle car or larger. It just takes away from the strategy of the game. PvP spawns Ok, another big problem -- 90% of the time in PvP I was spawning about 100 meters behind the target. This puts the attacker in the position of almost guaranteed victory (or total loss, if attacking someone like Latte and getting a bad spawn) as you can start firing immediately. There's no strategy there, it's just kill them quickly and it's over. Ask Damon, or JS/brutalbill how they like getting jumped from behind by cannons and tank guns and lasers with no chance to avoid them. It's not fun for those getting attacked, and it's no fun for the attacker (unless the attacker is only interested with the "phat lewts"). All PvP spawns should have at least 225-250 meter distance, with a LoS block between squads... escape should be at 500m only to make this possible without making escape too easy. Characters value/Character skill Ok this one will get me alot of hate, but whatever. It's quite simple really, characters train too slowly and cap far too high, which makes people place far more value on their gang members and makes them far too powerful. It's practically impossible to balance the game when there can be 200+ cross-trained gunners. Lowering the possible caps while increasing the training still provides character progression while not making losing a character or 5 as devastating on the player, and removes the problem of vet pvpers and their 150m+ CC shots, 250+ CR shots, etc. Oh yeah, replace Sniper spec with Car Rifle spec and only allow rapid-fire to work on small guns. CR balancing While I like the idea, it's currently flawed. If the vehicles/character skills were balanced a bit better it'd be fine though, I expect. Really, the only fun PvP I've had was a very small number of "fair" fights in Texan, and the limited fights I managed to take part in in the PvP league. Other than that, it's pretty much been beating up children for their lunch money, or throwing myself onto the sword of a knight... middle ground is pretty much impossible to find while the game is so unbalanced. |
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*Longo* Posted Apr 24, 2010, 6:28 am |
Sere -
I think the reason of this post is your failure at Pvp lately. I mean, don't take a poodle to a dogfight. You attack me, and I have gunners in the 150-350 range. Your using 20 skilled guys.... then you attack Latte's "A-team" and get beat up. You even said after our battle that you expected it to play out the way it did. Although I think DW needs Pvp improvements and am glad you are testing the game's Pvp more than anyone else and being a good sport at it (another good thing), I disagree with most of your arguments and will explain them below Item imbalances - The only one I think that is not in balance is the paint gun. And it almost is, with its 85 meter range, if the opponent is good and can hit at 150 meters. If... PvP spawns - In our encounter, it was pretty darn fair. And I was using a 200+ scout. Some need fixing yes, in SS for sure. But how do you determin who is placed where? If I have a 200+ scout and you are using a 20 scout, I think I should get an advantage...but my placement may not be an advantage if I am rear facing weapons. I'll give you a "needs improvement" here, yes. Characters value/skill Characters are the bread and butter of Dark-wind. Plain and simple. You want them nerfed so that you will have a chance attacking a vet player who has good guys, using new recruits. Sorry man. If I train my guys and keep em alive for a year, then I deserve to have a bonus against your 20 skilled recruits. Sorry. CR Balancing - We have talked about this in the RC. But your suggestion to balance "skills" is once again aimed at you having a better chance at attacking a vet with skilled guys with new recruits. Why would I want to risk my guys against your 1k guys you just hired? For what its worth, your not a bragger, poor sport, or bad player, and I personally appreciate this attitude. You have pvped alot of people, and I havent heard one person say a bad thing about you. Thats pretty cool. |
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Serephe Posted Apr 24, 2010, 6:51 am |
Losses don't bother me. What bothered me was almost every single fight I started I didn't have a chance of losing. When I attacked you it was an experiment to see if it was possible to win, but also because when I attacked people with my main squad they DID complain that it was unfair. Quite frankly, I'm disappointed that you'd think of me as someone who would get upset over one or two losses in PvP.
See, I disagree with you there -- when there are items that are unobtainable that hold such a significant advantage in power, it makes it IMPOSSIBLE for people to match up with them. You say the PAINT GUN is the unbalanced weapon, why is that? Because it actually gives people a chance to beat you if they can paint you? Absurd.
Almost all the spawns (at least 9/10 of the events I did) are with the attacker 100 meters behind the defender. If you can't see what's wrong with that, and why it removes STRATEGY from the equation, then I'm at a loss here... PvP should be about player skill, not who brought the bigger guns, after all...
Yes, characters are the bread and butter of Darkwind. But as they are, they're too valuable. In a game with permadeath, needing to spend YEARS of real life time playing to get a guy up means that in PvP death is basically not an option. What would you have done if I'd managed to set fire to your buzzers and have them explode? How would latte have felt if the spawn had been different and I'd blown up his guys with my tank guns and car cannon spam?
I don't even see what you're arguing at the moment -- I simply stated that the CR balancing was working more or less fine, besides the previous problems I mentioned. I've simply posted what would have to change for global PvP to become a reality. Without that, all it will remain is a way to steal items off weaker players, or destroy the richer players items through suicide attacks. |
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metrocube Posted Apr 24, 2010, 9:17 am |
No, I think Sere makes valid points all around.
Permadeath for my player characters is what keeps me from pvping, for example. Losing my cars I can do. Getting my 350+ scout's head blown off from a random roll after it took me 9 months to create him... yeah, !@#$ that. My player characters represent a substantial time investment and I'll be damned if I'm going to risk them in something as frivolous as PVP or pedestrian combat. Remove permadeath from PVP and pedestrian combat, and I would participate in those events. Maybe replace it with a one week coma. Sere you're mistaken about Longo's opinion regarding paint guns. He believes they need their range to be increased because they're ineffective at 85m when everyone else can shoot you from 150m out. Why do I always feel like the translator around here? :-) |
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*Marc5iver* marcgillespie55@gmail.com Posted Apr 24, 2010, 10:37 am |
Something like this would make me more open to doing PvP and Ped combat events. |
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FireFly Posted Apr 24, 2010, 2:11 pm |
So... you want to take the rare awesome part out of awesome rare weapons...
And take the awesome part out of awesome supergangers? Remove sniper... why? Sniper as a general ability makes perfect sense, its the ability to better target cars in the distance, no matter the weapon. This reminds me of that old PvP discussion... A new guy with 20 skill gangers and masses of swarm vehicles should stand no chance against a vet with the heavy gear, that's just not fair to the vet. Serephe... As a side note, why did you throw out all your cars and gangers? |
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Serephe Posted Apr 24, 2010, 2:36 pm |
There's plenty of ways to have "awesome rares" without them being completely unbalanced. Gang members certainly don't need to be so powerful as to completely trivialize the games content, either. Especially with the current speed of skill gain and the large size of gangs resulting in people placing far too much value on their gang members.
Okay, explain why sniper should be better than heavy weapon spec for heavy weapons? Really it should either be changed to a car rifle spec, or toned down so that specific specs for weapons benefit that weapon more than just giving sniper to everyone...
A new guy with 20 skill gangers and a swarm of vehicles can already beat a vet now using tactics, depending on map choice. The vet still has the advantage in character skill. That wouldn't change. What's the problem?
I was bored of attacking people with my good squad and having them bitch about me using lasers and long range cannons, or attacking people with my fresh squads and have them whine about how they get nothing even if they beat me. Or people just paying bounty because they only have PvP flag on for free skill gain. Basically, I see no point in playing until the game is more PvP friendly, if that even ever happens, so I've removed my expenses to save money until then. |
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Serephe Posted Apr 24, 2010, 2:40 pm |
Yes, the current spawns really annoy me. I'm glad that it was more biased in favor of you, rather than toward me -- if I'd spawned 100 meters behind you with no cover, I could have breached 2 of your buzzers on turn 1 of firing...without you being able to do anything about it. how is that fair? How is that fun? It's ridiculous. Now replace your squad with someone like say.. Damon, or JS, and it's even more absurd -- they can't even fight back at all! At least in the pvp league, with the smaller number of vehicles and the enforced skill caps, there's more tactics used.
There's always going to be bad feelings in PvP, especially with so many people using the PvP flag for training rather than actually having an interest in PvP. 
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Studman Posted Apr 25, 2010, 12:57 am |
The OP is really well written.
The only thing I would like to add is that those with PvP on flagged not be given the option of paying a bounty. Unless the other payer offers it in-game. Those with it off could be targeted but enjoy paying a lower fee. 1. Lower the maximum skill caps, make 100s rare. 2. Increase lethality. It is ridiculous that in a world where rockets and machine guns are going off, no one ever seems to die. 3. Rapidly speed up aging. 4. a heavy increase cr modifer for the ultra rares. Make it stack. So that a Buzzer could still be used with a reasonable CR but if you throw those 2 car cannons on it gets a much more accurate CR then what it is now. (about 2-3x as much.) |
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Fealty Lost Posted Apr 25, 2010, 1:22 am |
Lots of good suggestions and many spot-on points concerning PvP.
Here's my take: Yes, getting shot up with guns that set you on fire while having no chance to hit the enemy (except with a single missed shot) is frustrating. However: as I've said to Serephe and others I've PvP'd with, they worked those gangers up and acquired that equipment so there's no reason they shouldn't be allowed to use it. Problem is: you outclass everything you're going after, unless it's another long-time player or someone who's 'figured out the system' and is fanatic enough to play night and day every day. As a former Marine Corps scout, I see Ser's point concerning Sniper. It should be a spec' that's only for CR's, HCR's and Lasers. Ranges over 150 meters should be the exclusive domain of these weapons. Auto-fire weapons are unusable with any skills I've ever learned sniping. Gunny Hath#### fired an M-2 .50 single shot to obtain, until the advent of the Barrett-style .50 rifles, one of the longest ranged shots ever made...against a moving target! He'd never have come close using it on auto. Ballistic weapons, like CC's and ATG's (yes, they're Ballistic weapons) that heave a large/heavy shell at targets require a different skill set. Until computers entered the game, firing weapons like this was a 'best guess' sort of affair, unless you were firing from a fixed position that could utilize aiming/triangulation devices. They require forward observers who can 'walk' rounds into the target or pre-combat aiming to 'zero' in on a specific spot. Ballistic Prediction should be changed to these types of weapons and also cover CGL/PG/Mortars. Heavy Weapons skill should apply to auto-fire weapons: HMGs, MMGs, MGs, HGGs, GGs and should give you increased damage, representing your ability to 'hold' the target within the area of the massed fire these weapons provide as opposed to pin-point accuracy, thereby providing more hits/damage. Perhaps a skill titled "AutoFire" should be made. It would allow those with the skill to eek out more shots per clip. A 20-shot HMG would provide 25 shots because of the users ability to fire more accurately, thereby doing the same amount of damage with less rounds? Let me prephase this next portion: I see "Car Rifles" as just that; large caliber rifles (like, say, my .458 Weatherby or the more familiar .600 Nitro Express of Tremors fame), stripped of their stock, leaving just the firing mechanism/clip. A Heavy Car Rifle is a Barrett's-style weapon. A Car Cannon is a weapon that fires a 20mm round, semiautomatic, with a fixed clip. It has no burst effect, but a devastating effect against armor. An Anti-Tank Gun fires a large diameter round designed to produce a combined explosion/penetrating type damage. There should be no 'splash' from either of these weapons. They are designed to penetrate armor, and explosions do not penetrate armor. Burst effect should be the sole purvey of rockets, scaled to size, as they are now. Both the CC and especially the ATG should be highly affected by being fired from a moving platform. It takes computers to allow an Abrahms tank to fire on the move. DW doesn't have those. High-skill gunners would of course offset this negative, making them as nasty as they should be, but not guaranteeing the high volume of dead-on hits they now get. RGMs. They need to go away. Radar doesn't work very well in a highly irradiated atmosphere. End of story. Make them wire-guided, with sliding chance for them to lose guidance depending on intervening objects. (probably a nightmare to code) To fix this, make them like TOW rockets. Externally mounted, 4-shot weapons. The only thing that could hold a launcher unexposed would be the 'trucks,' TT, Lorry, Bus, FT. And no, Hummers can't mount TOWs internally. Increase CR to match damage. Use the HMG as a base. Every point OVER HMG damage DOUBLES CR of a weapon. So, HMG is 10 (example), does up to 4 points damage. CC does up to 8. 20=5th point, 40=6th point, 80=7th point 160=8th point. Apply to all weapons. Making gangers part of the CR is difficult, but changing the CR values would offset weapon lethality, changing the game up. If you wanted to bring big guns, you'll be bringing a lot less. As to the actual PvP, as many have mentioned, the thing that makes most people NOT want to PvP is the loss-factor. You work your arse off to get this stuff...you don't want to lose it. So most don't risk it. Luckily we have a more mature crowd of people, on the whole, and 'nonlethal' PvP does take place. I've proposed it before and will reiterate it here: Allow 'per vehicle' resignations that stop said vehicle from taking further damage but also make it not able to deal further damage. As soon as a vehicle surrenders, the owning player should point it away from combat and extend and disengage or, if possible, have the vehicle 'autodriven' towards the most empty spot that takes it away from the fight? Or outright make it autoescape the combat and disappear? Then, at the end of combat, the players would be given loot screens based on the amount of damage they did to their opponent that would be more akin to using HPs in the shops: weapons/equipment that were ON the enemy's vehicles would appear as loot. Not all...again, based on damage done, the number would increase. So if you had a fight to the death, there would be more loot. If you had a nonlethal fight, only a few items. That way, guys that try and exploit the system won't get anything, because they put on a show of having PvP with few shots actually taken. Those who fight, even just to 'blues,' would be able to get rewarded. Additionally, to insure nonexploit, a surrender option would appear as soon as a vehicle's armor is breached, or a 'blue' hit is done, then, if declined, on each subsequent 'blue' hit until the owner surrenders. This way, players are in control and decide when and if they want to give up, and attackers can know whether to hold or pour it on. Both players get control over the fight. Both players can benefit from surrendered vehicles. The winner would gain the better loot. More to come...I'm getting carried away. 
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theHumungous Posted Apr 25, 2010, 1:25 am |
This is a pretty good idea, though I don't agree with the other points. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Apr 25, 2010, 1:28 am |
To implement this stuff would require a reboot. Which frankly i'm not cool with. Much as I like this game without any of the characters/goodies/etc, that would actually make me pick up a new hobby...like real life or something.
Think about it. You eliminate some rares or whatever and something else becomes rare that people value...whatever it is , there is always something. I don't deny that PvP can have some really wild swings in luck or whatever, but I actually think that's kind of cool. Really we are talking about the "feelings" around PvP right? Like the major loss of a big ganger or rare item. Well you make the cap 100 and people will still get pissy when they lose that 100 ganger. Or that hard to get heavy machine gun! The only thing that really needs fixing is how PvP is started and the initial MERGE of combat and the BENEFITS of it AND HOW IT IMPACTS EVAN AS A WHOLE FROM EACH BATTLE. That is what is missing. I do not value anything shark, the penultimate fair-weather fan of the game wants to contribute in the way of ideas. So i'm out, your fired...whatever. |
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Serephe Posted Apr 25, 2010, 1:53 am |
The weapon changes you posted interest me, even though what I'm really trying to push for is balance rather than realism... realism and balance together would be beautiful though. Basing weapon CR off damage probably wouldn't work, some combination of damage/CR/range/ammo perhaps would. I don't know, I haven't really thought about it that much. I like the idea of per vehicle resignations, though I'd like the option to disallow it for attacks made against me (not attacking other people though, forcing them into your rules is hardly fair).
It wouldn't necessarily require a reboot, however it'd be a lot of work on Sams part either way. Still, I'm not demanding this or anything, I'm simply posting what I believe would be required from my own experiences. There's no need to ELIMINATE rares, simply to BALANCE them. An unbalanced game is pretty much impossible to provide a decent PvP environment in. As for the characters, I'm not suggesting to make an entire gang trainable in a week... simply to make it so that if characters are killed, it doesn't take months of time to train replacements. As the game is, people protect their characters far too much... how will they react when they have characters killed in PvP? And please don't bring any outside arguments with people into my thread. That goes for everyone. 
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Joel Autobaun Posted Apr 25, 2010, 2:02 am |
Really think we need to "balance" the rares more? I mean if you get a 100M spawn behind someone with twin HMG and they have a hvy laser- you are gonna beat the #### out of them with 100lrg gunz to their X2 snipers. It's all relative.
Frankly I would NEVER risk a hvy laser or RGM in PVP on purpose...for just that reason - a bad spawn and you lose it. |
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Serephe Posted Apr 25, 2010, 2:10 am |
Actually, since heavy lasers do more damage than anything short of a tank gun, set vehicles on fire, and have perfect accuracy at that range... they'd still win against CC's. Hell they'd probably win against tank guns unless the gunners on the tank guns were 200+ multispecced. |
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Lord Foul Posted Apr 25, 2010, 2:21 am |
Ser said:
I’ve made sure Sam was well aware of this in the RC forum when the pvp league started a few months back, with screens shots to show examples of this issue as well. Not sure when he can get around to looking at this, but he is aware. |
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Serephe Posted Apr 25, 2010, 2:24 am |
Good to hear. I'm sure he's aware of many of the problems. He's a busy man outside of the game, with quite a lot to do inside the game also. |
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Djihani Posted Apr 25, 2010, 3:34 am |
I stopped reading when shark actually made a darn good point.
(declaimer to say I'm drunk and hyped up on adrenaline) But seriously Sere, it took you those losses to come up with the thread? I've always respected you as a funny and able player even though youve been scary lately but... |
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Serephe Posted Apr 25, 2010, 3:44 am |
The losses had nothing to do with it -- one I was using junk guys, and the other was a bad spawn, but both fights I entered KNOWING they were going to be losses. Seriously, why do people think I care about two losses? I've been trying to push to make the game harder at the higher end for a while, so that people do actually lose occasionally. This thread has been a long time coming, since the first time I started PvPing. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Apr 25, 2010, 6:21 am |
Maybe you are right ...but smoke? Every thing has a counter - except perhaps the RGM - which does not spawn anymore anywhere. |
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ISHOULDCOCO Posted Apr 25, 2010, 9:14 am |
An culture of "Gentleman PVPers" is beneficial
But the reality of an extended PVP capaign is dead characters and busted Heavy Lasers My opinions, subjective as they are - a) Escape is an honourable option and can be agreed between parties b) Helmets and Flak Jackets are still incoming and will have a positive effect of accidental decapitation. c) PVP engagement range should be TREBLED. This makes PVP far more meaningful/less grindey and means cover/speed is an option for folks without ultra rares. COCO |
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FireFly Posted Apr 25, 2010, 9:52 am |
With laserfire 3, this is how the damage would be.... 100m... Heavy Laser - 9,8,7,6,5 damage and so on with laserfire 3 Twin HMG apache - 7-8,7-8,7-8 I played a lot with my heavy lasers, it takes a while for a single HL to pierce an apache, long enough to get trashed by twin HMG's, not to mention that the HMG's will push the enemy car. Any vet bringing rares to the table is already taking an enormous risk, what if in that battle against latte sere, if you would have spawned at 100m, or even head on? And Damon, have you gone insane? Making CC's and other high damage weapons the CR of a new car, that's just bollocks. |
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Serephe Posted Apr 25, 2010, 10:53 am |
Firstly, if you can't keep it civil, stay out of my thread. Secondly, a heavy laser causes as much or more damage than twin HMGs at a longer range, with more accuracy and has a chance of setting the vehicle on fire for one weapon slot... with no need for ammunition to be stored in the vehicle. Just ask JS what 8 turns of laserfire did to one of his buzzers by itself. Seriously, it's an absurdly overpowered weapon and "its really rare so only a few people have it" is more an argument TOWARD balancing it rather than against... though why lasers and radar guided missiles still exist in the game world is beyond me, they don't fit in the setting at all to begin with. If I'd spawned 100 meters behind Latte he'd have either truced me, or lost his lasers/rgms to tank gun/cc spam. If he'd spawned head on, the ranges are longer and he'd have bombed me to death while out of LoS. Thanks for bringing attention to one of my main points. Really, I don't expect any changes to happen as far as making the game balanced is concerned, as people are too used to being able to beat the snot out of the AI every day with completely overpowered items and characters.
You might have a point there if smoke didn't require reloading, and didn't take up large amounts of valuable space, besides which when Damon deployed smoke against me I shot him anyway. |
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FireFly Posted Apr 25, 2010, 12:39 pm |
Serephe, what me and some fellow laser users agree on is this, their fragility is what makes them balanced...
Last week, I had 2 lasers, 2 friggin lasers, destroyed in a single GG burst to the left armor, 2 GG bullets, the weakest vehicle weapon in the game, destroyed a laser each. Same goes for heavy lasers, I have a total of 3, destroyed one, regular lasers, well, currently I own 2 functional ones, 3 damaged ones, and I probably destroyed more than that. My main point is, they are ridiculously easy to damage, hard to repair, that is what makes them balanced... You are also forgetting this, to even use a laser effectively, you need laserfire 2 or above, you definitely need laserfire 3 to do what you did to that buzzer. And serephe, beating the snot out of the AI is by no means a result of overpowered weapons, I dogfight the enemy almost daily out of SS, in twin MMG or MMG/CR windsors, unless you say those are overpowered? |
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Fealty Lost Posted Apr 25, 2010, 12:40 pm |
Ser', using my PvP system would allow you to continue to fight to the death if you wanted. When breached, and the 'click box' shows up asking you if you want to surrender, you could choose not to, thereby staying in the game and fighting, even though breached/blued.
And thank you, FF, for thinking me insane. Socrates and Oscar Levant said that there is a bit of insanity in the greatest minds, and as my latest IQ test bears out, as I'm in a natural peak at age 53 (54 May 23) and tested, again, in the 140's...I appreciate the compliment. We geniusses don't expect the 'norms' to understand everything we propose, however, what with your limited intellects. But you do make us smile. Serephe...ya, you know, I was wondering about that...smoke everywhere and you were still zapping the crap outa me. What's up with that? As to spawns: Using Scouts, and whatever the 'roll' is: You're given an overhead of the map. Depending on your relative positions, you might see 'disturbances' in the map's surface. Perhaps a 'reflection' or a 'dust devil' that gives approximate positions of the enemy? You then are allowed to set your units one at a time ANYWHERE on the map; once the first piece is set, all further pieces must be set up within 'X' number of meters from the first, representing unit coherency. Once both players have set their pieces, they are revealed. Nonexistent supreme being help you. .02 |
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4saken Posted Apr 25, 2010, 5:30 pm |
WOW there's WAY too much in this post to reply to, a bit of which doesn't even concern PvP directly. I'll sift through and respond to a couple things for now, though...\
Fire
THIS needs a thread of its own. Having crew try to put out fires. It's brilliant. No special equipment needed, but now you have a choice to keep shooting or try to put out the fire quicker. Your choice. Character Value I've been saying for awhile that characters are too valuable. Permadeath + the amount of time it takes to train them makes for absurdly valuable characters. The end result, aside from a huge gulf between newbs and vets, is that since the characters are so valuable it's not a viable option to risk them. The result is that no one will PvP and even vs the NPCs most people are terrified to do anything other than park on a hill and shoot fish in a barrel or some other tedious tactic that is as absolutely low risk as possible. The end result: Less Fun. Lemme give you another example, using something else. I fly RC planes. I only fly the modern stuff, which is to say the stuff with the super-foam that can handle hitting the ground, not the balsa stuff. The end result is I fly my foam plane like a madman and have a blast. With a balsa plane the general rule is "3 mistakes high". Safe, but boring as living hell. But with the time and cost involved in replacing a balsa plane, you have no choice. Having fun just isn't worth the risk. I have mentioned several times on deaf ears that gangers are too valuable. Even increasing the skill gain by 50% would help. But even then something that takes you 6 months to do would still take four months of real time. Gangers need to be more replaceable. Another suggestion would be a way to hire gangers that are more skilled. This would make losses much less critical and could also be an excellent money sink. Want a 40 skill newbie? 50k. Want an 80 skill newbie? 400k. This also makes the game much less tedious, and you can convert time you have already devoted scouting/etc into time saved with levelling your new recruit. Also, the current way, you'd not only invest time levelling that guy you'd be making even more money in the process with little to spend it on, which is why we have multi-millionaires. Sniper Spec I agree this spec is waaay too over powered. Hitting at range is called "having a high skill". I also think that having a spec in a specific weapon should always be better than a general spec that applies to all weapons. It would be tricky to fix sniper to where it still has value, though. Perhaps a greater chance to hit when aiming (before you've fired) or it adds a better chance to hit at extreme ranges (but not more than about 25% total). In other words instead of that full bar at uberranges, where a normal character can hit at 100m you can hit to 150m but you only get a quarter bar whereas everyone else gets pretty much no chance. This is a tricky one though. It would take extensive code changes, possibly even changing the hit chance curve of all weapons. It would also affect a long-standing spec and upset alot of people, and would require a huge amount of tweaking to balance correctly. It would almost require everything to be re-done from the ground up. A monumental task, I'm afraid. Close Spawns
Wow, that's so absurd I would have actually considered it a bug and petitioned Sam to have my characters rezzed. That's how it usually is? Completely unacceptable. That's it for now. I don't want to write a book and actually I am supposed to be "working", not using da intertubes. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Apr 25, 2010, 6:08 pm |
No way, then PvP will be 3 hours long every time with Car rifle and laser shoot outs, |
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FireFly Posted Apr 25, 2010, 6:42 pm |
You mean tactical play? | ||||||||||
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Joel Autobaun Posted Apr 25, 2010, 8:30 pm |
Basically that would be awesome - and would solve 90% of what Serephe is talking about (the other 10% or whatever being perspective on rares and gangers). Basically like a lot of things "wrong" with the game it suffers from being unfinished. If we can stop asking Sam for constant tweaks and Nerfs and chasing sharks maybe he could get this done. |
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FireFly Posted Apr 25, 2010, 8:40 pm |
Edit: Although I am 100% against fog of war in PVE I am completely for it in PvP, but only if it was coupled with this spawn system damon proposed, damon, I agree with you. |
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*Longo* Posted Apr 25, 2010, 10:56 pm |
The maps are too damn big to place anywhere on them. | ||||||||||
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Serephe Posted Apr 26, 2010, 1:13 am |
Winning vs the AI isn't beating the snot out of them -- I was able to beat 15-18 AI with just the heavy laser. The FRONT MOUNTED heavy laser, so this wasn't with running away like a pansy, either, I simply sat on a spot and fired at the front cars repeatedly. The AI didn't stand a CHANCE and neither did any of the players I attacked. Fact is, these weapons ARE completely unbalanced compared to the rest of equipment in the game, and open PvP does not work in a game that is not balanced. And no, "the gun breaks when you shoot me while I'm breached" doesn't mean ####, because that happens with EVERY gun currently, and even then I've had a laser survive a CAR CANNON shell with over 40% left. |
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Serephe Posted Apr 26, 2010, 1:15 am |
This overhead map thing -- the defender spawning, then getting a circle around them (based on scout skill?) where the enemy cannot spawn, the enemy then gets to place themselves anywhere around the outer edge of the circle (in 1 spot only, unless Sam wants ambushes possible). Could be done using pretty much what we have now, I think. |
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Serephe Posted Apr 26, 2010, 1:23 am |
If FOW was implemented, it'd have to be game-wide. There's no reason to add it to PvP that isn't also a reason to add it to PvE, and there's no reason not to add it to PvE that isn't also a reason not to add it to PvP. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Apr 26, 2010, 3:17 am |
I don't believe it. 14 charging cars and your laser beat them all? Congrats Serephe you beat the game, can you leave it alone while the rest of us work up to godhood? Perhaps Lasers are better than most weapons. They also don't spawn in shops, require 2 otherwise useless specs(laserX2) to use and after you are done with your sniper nerf would be totally useless anyway. Did you call for MM nerfs too? THat is a truely deadly weapon in PvP...before you are done we are all basically shooting hmg at each other all the time. |
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Serephe Posted Apr 26, 2010, 3:24 am |
Yes. The heavy laser can breach a muscle car with 2 shots, SUV with 4. At 250 meters. If you aim at the first cars, the cars behind them can't get around while the front cars are turning around to try to run. It's really quite easy to do.
Don't give me that bull####.
Lasers are EXTREMELY higher in power than other weapons. They're still found in the wilderness, heavyweapon spec/rocket spec/MG spec is useless for other weapons too, the only difference being laser spec gives an insane increase in power for the weapon compared to the others. MM are powerful when used in large numbers, but weapon for weapon lasers/heavy lasers are far more powerful than them. Really the only problem I have with MM is that not only can they attack from outside LoS, but they have a huge range and ballistics targetting doesn't fall in line with other weapon targetting (how often can you hit at max range with a cannon with a 0 skill gunner? Now try that with ballistics. Sure some will miss still, but 0 skill gunners can still demoralize vehicles at 200m with mortars). Balancing doesn't mean driving a weapon into the ground, it means making ALL weapons valid choices. As it is, the only reason lasers aren't used more often is that the people that have them hang onto them even when not using them, and to find them in the wilderness you need to metagame. Just a few people having the items doesn't make it right, in fact it just makes the problem even worse. What's your problem with having a balanced game? |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Apr 26, 2010, 3:41 am |
I guess I just don't believe everything you are saying, my own experiences with lasers and yes hvy laser are not the same. They DO get damaged as FF says and I sure as hell don't like agreeing with him.
It just seems like you are being intellectually dishonest here and I wonder what else about from all your experiences. My end point is go ahead and try to balance everything perfectly...it's a never ending game. I dunno maybe Lasers do need a nerf but every now and then there is a thread about how much they suck (mostly because a lot of people do not dedicated one ganger's skills to 150 all to one weapon. I will say this as my final comment, if the game was to change as much as you suggest I'd need to be able to respec a lot or find myself with some really useless spec combos. I guess i'd be the next guy selling all my stuff and putting it all in mothballs. |
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Serephe Posted Apr 26, 2010, 3:52 am |
When did I say that lasers DIDN'T take damage? Simply, I said that other weapons are just as likely to take damage/be destroyed. No, not being dishonest at all. I have no reason to be. The game will never be PERFECTLY balanced, that's practically impossible, but when things are this far out of balance it really needs tweaking. Yes, lasers aren't too good with fresh gang members, and honestly I think laser spec needs a rework, with lasers being able to fire more often from baseline. Being able to reset specialisms with changes of this magnitude is a must, as you say, but really there's no chance of having all these changes implemented in the near even if Sam decided they were all needed. He's only one man, after all. I considered just suggesting that the unbalanced weapons not be available in PvP, but what happens when some new guy attacks someones PvE squad? How do you deal with that? |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Apr 26, 2010, 4:00 am |
Sigh... I dunno , now I'm gonna have to start a rampage and see if I see the same things. It's the only way to be sure
Blame Serephe, if i get lucky on anyone's squads...I sure will be blaming him for my losses... |
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Serephe Posted Apr 26, 2010, 4:10 am |
Well, yeah, experience is the only way for you to know for sure either way.
How many players are there that actually hunt people, anyway? |
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FireFly Posted Apr 26, 2010, 9:08 am |
Wow Serephe, just Wow, complaining that mortars doesn't ballistics doesn't work like other skills... are you insane?
Let me explain the theory of aiming a ballistic weapon. First of, how far the shot will go is determined by the angle and how much power is behind the shot, thereby, if you have a "Max Range" it would be very very very easy to hit that same max range several times over, the tough part is predicting were to fire said mortar when the car is in motion, in other words, the system is perfectly capable of representing ballistics. As for your heavy laser example, great serephe, you had an uberganger with laserfire 3 and plenty of sniper, and a fast car to get away in time, great, now let everyone else get that before you scream nerf. |
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Serephe Posted Apr 26, 2010, 9:18 am |
Yes, I'm "complaining" that ballistic weapons can be manned pretty much perfectly with unskilled gang members. What's the point in training their skill up when they can do the job pretty much perfectly to begin with. Uh yeah, my gang leader was hardly an "uberganger" and a buzzer isn't a fast car. Besides which, pretty much everyone that has access to lasers and heavy lasers has "ubergangers" too, so that point really doesn't mean ####. FireFly, get your facts straight before you come bitching at me. |
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FireFly Posted Apr 26, 2010, 9:25 am |
Going of what you said, breaching an suv in 4 turns, you must have had laserfire 3, and at least sniper 2, otherwise, you would not hit every single shot at 250m, sure, I dont have all the facts, but I do know how heavy lasers work. And sorry, not a fast vehicle, semi rare heavily armored vehicle. (It's called lunch break goat) |
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*goat starer* Posted Apr 26, 2010, 9:26 am |
ser is, as always, absolutely right... shouldn't you be in school Firefly? or have you been expelled again? | ||||||||||
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Serephe Posted Apr 26, 2010, 9:31 am |
So it's logical that ballistics skill really doesn't mean anything besides a few free specs? That seems right to you? Christ I don't even know why I bother replying to you. My gang member had LF3 and sniper 1. Hardly difficult to get, 150 gunnery and 50 handgunnery is childsplay for anybody who can aquire a heavy laser. Just because it takes an "overpowered" character to use an "overpowered" weapon doesn't make it balanced. But of course, you just want to continue destroying the AI and paying bounty to escape PvP. You have no need of game balance. |
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FireFly Posted Apr 26, 2010, 9:32 am |
Your sense of balance is off Serephe, that is my main issue...
Do you balance the Excalibur to the common Iron Sword? Not many can carry the Excalibur, while the Iron Sword can be used by anyone. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Apr 26, 2010, 9:39 am |
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Serephe Posted Apr 26, 2010, 9:44 am |
How is my sense of balance off? I'm not saying that a HMG should be equal to a heavy laser/rgm/mortar in every way, I'm saying they should be BALANCED which they currently ARE NOT. Hell, a pair of heavy lasers and 2 100 skill gunners in a 4L Apache and I could take down an infinite amount of AI or player vehicles that weren't using similar equipment. You know what, YOU are the one who has no sense of game balance, thinking that ballistics weapons shouldn't require a decent amount of skill to hit at maximum range accurately. |
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FireFly Posted Apr 26, 2010, 9:57 am |
THE EASIEST THING YOU COULD POSSIBLY DO WITH A MORTAR IS FIRE AT THE MAXIMUM RANGE. It's the equivalent of pointing a gun in the general direction of your enemy and pulling the trigger, since hitting the maximum range doesn't require you to adjust things. Ballistic skill makes you better at hitting when you enemy is CLOSER to you, at 200m, the mortars are at their best, that is the equivalent of 20m for machineguns and alike, its the reverse. |
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Serephe Posted Apr 26, 2010, 10:02 am |
Sure, excalibur is better than an iron sword, but many iron swords can defeat someone wielding excalibur. Currently this isn't the case. Besides which, it's impossible to get many swords against excalibur because excaliburs CR while high, is no where near as high as its power demands. PvP spawns not allowing tactical fighting one of my points in the original post, glad to see that you've actually bothered to read rather than posting to say "waaaaah I want my overpowered stuff to stay overpowered" FF. Sure, that'd be fine if it couldn't hit at 200m+ while out of LoS, and still land shots as close as 50m, even with crappy gunners, WITH NO PURPLE BAR. |
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FireFly Posted Apr 26, 2010, 10:10 am |
How much have you used mortars? Direct hits are very very rare, extremly so, anything within 190m, and my mortar people have huge difficulties hitting the enemy car, It's much more of an area attack weapon, and for that, the enemy needs to be bunched together. Please, go use a lot of mortars, then we can go back to this discussion eh? Ps, Everyone knows the Purple bar dosent work with balllistics, why even bother saying it? |
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Serephe Posted Apr 26, 2010, 10:20 am |
Are you kidding me? How much have I used mortars? Try thousands of events over the past 3 years. At least half of my events, or more, have involved mortars. There's a reason I don't use them anymore. Ask Ninesticks where he got a bunch of his. Hell, some of Mikes mortars may have originally been mounted on my old mortar lorries. Direct hits are nowhere near as rare as you say, and you don't even need to cause a direct hit as a mortar does its work on the weaker top/bottom armor of cars. Purple bar does in fact work, it works exactly the same as normal weapons do. |
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FireFly Posted Apr 26, 2010, 10:25 am |
All right then serephe, please tell me how you operate your magical mortars, because mine dont act the way you say they do, I currently have 10 of them in my squad.
How nice of you to lock the thread, yeah, I think front mounted mortys are amazing, but not as godlike as you say... |
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Serephe Posted Apr 26, 2010, 10:30 am |
That's funny, I seem to remember a certain someone commenting constantly on how amazing his front mounted mortars are.
You're so full of #### it's not funny, I really don't know why I even bothered replying to your first post. I'll give you a hint -- ballistics weapons currently rely on how the player uses them, not character skill. |