Joel Autobaun Posted Oct 18, 2010, 4:01 pm	After my war with JS (and whoever else), it was clear to me camp PvP is effin brutal. I, as an attacker picked the times to attack and since everyone uses 24 hours (otherwise there is no point), I could attack at 2 am If I wanted(and that would have been like 7-8AM on the other side of the pond on a weekday). As it was I attacked later in the night(11PM and 12 Eastern) as that suited my RL schedule. The Defenders were able to make only one of the combats for whatever reason. It could have been even worse, I could have picked times they would for sure been put out by. As it was the result was clear - there is no point in being PvP flagged as a camp if you are actually getting attacked. It is impossible to defend 24 hours, I don't care how many people you have ready to fight at your camp. I think this poll is for anyone that typically belongs to a PvP open camp. This is kind of a rough poll to gauge opinions on "Open hours", ideas for how to make the hours less are welcome. More to come - trying to craft a very good PvP intercept Poll.
*jimmylogan* Posted Oct 18, 2010, 4:04 pm	Not a vote, as I'm not part of an "open PvP" camp, but just a comment... The whole "open hours" thing is a known variable. Camp owners have the option to stay open 24 hours, but the result is they can get an attack at any of those hours. If they don't want to be available 24 hours, or have friends to spread it out, then they should NOT be open 24 hours. Again, this is nothing new, and nothing forces a camp to be open 24 hours...
Joel Autobaun Posted Oct 18, 2010, 4:07 pm	Ok here's the thing - that works fine if you are not PvP flagged. You can bash the npcs anytime you want when they attack. People are flagging for PvP camp because there is a (small) advantage to it...when you can actually PvP. If you PvP seriously and are camp attacked...then you have me scaling back my hours by 1/2 or 3/4 just so I can defend myself? There goes any possible bonus and MUCH MUCH more. Perhaps there should be separate PvP open hours...doesn't matter to me what you call it.
*jimmylogan* Posted Oct 18, 2010, 4:12 pm	Right - small advantage for PvP open (which also means someone else has to 'go to war' with you to even be attacked) but the disadvantage is that you have to watch your open hours. I see that as balanced. As far as scaling back your hours, that's your choice. The original thought behind this was that you would get your camp mates to commit to other times. Times that couldn't be committed to should either be closed or be prepared to get up in the middle of the night for a defense. That's all I'll say about it - I am not trying to slur your vote or anything, just expressing an opinion. I would hate to see people jump up and demand a change without knowing WHY it was done that way to begin with...
Joel Autobaun Posted Oct 18, 2010, 4:15 pm	Well I probably know more about this than anyone else - empirically speaking. I'm gonna try the vote first then I guess I will teach the lesson in practice. I've heard (mostly through sideways remarks) the camp damage to the consortium from just 3 attacks(one was forced to truce because of server trouble) was really really bad. If I was at my worst, it could have been easily 5 attacks before they managed to close up PvP and at least 2 before hours could change. I'd welcome any comments about that from Members of that camp (even mean ones about me lol).
*goat starer* Posted Oct 18, 2010, 5:13 pm	leave it. I have both attacked camps and been attacked. camp owners need to get better at utilising their members to mount a defence. If your camp has nobody in it who can mount a defence you should not be open 24 hours.
Joel Autobaun Posted Oct 18, 2010, 5:17 pm	What camp were you at when it was attacked and who defended it at what time?
*goat starer* Posted Oct 18, 2010, 5:25 pm	I was in my own camp... which i cant even remember what itr was called. I think it was Longo and Latte who attacked it but as I didnt get the email nobody defended it... took a bit of damage. But as a camp owner I would have got someone else to defend it if I couldnt. (and i had my opening hours set to hours i can typically do).
Joel Autobaun Posted Oct 18, 2010, 5:46 pm	So they attacked once? then you made peace or how did it end?
*goat starer* Posted Oct 18, 2010, 11:01 pm	never attacked me again.. i sold the camp to invest in the vault.
JS Posted Oct 19, 2010, 12:01 am	Joel did you e-mail the attacks on us? I never got any. It is an "option". I assumed you did not do it to enhance the suprise aspect. Although if you pay attention to the "info" page you will see attacks in time to defend them. The e-mail is a courtesy that should be followed imo. While the damage was not huge, it takes a bunch of stone to fix even a 87% mech shop and we had some stockpiled, over a 1000 I'd say and I had to ship in quite a bit more as each building was around 87% and some were lower after the 2-3 attacks (2 successful I think?).
Joel Autobaun Posted Oct 19, 2010, 12:41 am	JS said: Joel did you e-mail the attacks on us?  I never got any.  It is an "option".  I assumed you did not do it to enhance the suprise aspect.  Although if you pay attention to the "info" page you will see attacks in time to defend them.  The e-mail is a courtesy that should be followed imo.  While the damage was not huge, it takes a bunch of stone to fix even a 87% mech shop and we had some stockpiled, over a 1000 I'd say and I had to ship in quite a bit more as each building was around 87% and some were lower after the 2-3 attacks (2 successful I think?). Weird, I get an email every time a camp attack is scheduled.  Not sure where this setting is. Anyways IGAF anymore about this and it doesn't look like anyone else does either.
*Dark Tempest* Posted Oct 19, 2010, 3:29 am	lol, JS the email on attack is an option that the camp owner turns on to alert themselves of an attack. If you didn't get an email it's because you didn't have it on, not because of anything Joel did.
*Ninesticks* Posted Oct 22, 2010, 5:27 am	I had a dig around from way back when camp wars all started and found the formula as Sam gave it for working out the CR you can use to attack with (which is a factor in how much damage you do iirc). 2.5 * defenderFame * attackerMR/100 * attackerActiveFrac*1.2 So apart from the obvious losses to production you get from scaling back to cover only the hours you can guarantee that you can defend you also lose the ability to counter-attack. As far as I am aware, the whole opening hours issue is more to do with scheduling of the fights (as in the matter being forced) as much as any balance that flows from it. I will agree with Joel on this one, never been a huge fan of it. You are restricting a camp based upon its active members, how active they are and how geographically separate they are. I would certainly be interested to see any viable alternatives that address the scheduling issue as well as the current system.
JS Posted Oct 22, 2010, 10:28 am	*Dark Tempest* said: lol, JS the email on attack is an option that the camp owner turns on to alert themselves of an attack. If you didn't get an email it's because you didn't have it on, not because of anything Joel did. There ya have it.  Didn't know.  Although I believe I had it on.  I get the camp attack e-mails for the NPCs.  But did not for the PvP.
*Dark Tempest* Posted Oct 22, 2010, 1:46 pm	In that case maybe it's a bug?
Joel Autobaun Posted Jan 18, 2011, 8:01 pm	bump 29% got their way (actually people who voted for camps to be open 24hrs just got burned and just PM'd sam to change it)
FireFly Posted Jan 18, 2011, 8:06 pm	Yeah, hey goat, you hypocrite
*sam* Posted Jan 18, 2011, 8:22 pm	Joel Autobaun said: bump 29% got their way (actually people who voted for camps to be open 24hrs just got burned and just PM'd sam to change it) That's pretty much it, yeah. Not that you GAF, right, Joel? I never saw this thread before.
Serephe Posted Jan 18, 2011, 8:43 pm	Quote: I thought that the 24 hour open time was supposed to encourage people getting together and working out who defends at what time and whatnot Took the valid bit of my message from the other thread and trimmed as much grumpybum sarcasm as I could off it. Greatly dislike shorter open hours required.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jan 18, 2011, 8:48 pm	*sam* said: Joel Autobaun said: bump 29% got their way (actually people who voted for camps to be open 24hrs just got burned and just PM'd sam to change it) That's pretty much it, yeah. Not that you GAF, right, Joel? I never saw this thread before. Yeah.  I sure wasted a lot of time on the forum.
*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Jan 18, 2011, 9:10 pm	Personally I like the change, as the vault almost exclusively has a UK player base. And yes I know. The mean nasty vets at the vault always get what they want. We're terrible people, sorry about that.
FireFly Posted Jan 18, 2011, 9:36 pm	Well, to be honest I like the open time change to, I just think the CR change is to low! whats 3000cr,? that's just like 8 buzzers, pfft, that's nothing!
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jan 18, 2011, 9:36 pm	Joel Autobaun said: *sam* said: Joel Autobaun said: bump 29% got their way (actually people who voted for camps to be open 24hrs just got burned and just PM'd sam to change it) That's pretty much it, yeah. Not that you GAF, right, Joel? I never saw this thread before. Yeah.  I sure wasted a lot of time on the forum.   Never, you keep us amused
d0dger Posted Jan 18, 2011, 9:59 pm	3000 really seems a bit low for the larger camps. Perhaps we should propose more of a scaling CR based on camp size? One value for small camp. Another for medium camp. A third for large camps?
*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Jan 18, 2011, 10:07 pm	All of that is 4000 CR. Those vehicles are all armed lorries, BPUs, Buzzers, apaches and FTs with a couple of paint buccaneers. 3000 is plenty. (and excuse the red circle, that was there for a different purpose.)
*Dark Tempest* Posted Jan 18, 2011, 10:37 pm	No 3000 got put in because a bunch of players decided that being attacked by an amount the scaled to their own fame was far too scary. They bit off more than they could chew and got scared, followed by somehow complaining to Sam and getting in changed in under a day.
*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Jan 18, 2011, 10:41 pm	Didn't see that one coming
d0dger Posted Jan 18, 2011, 11:03 pm	*Rezeak* said: All of that is 4000 CR. Those vehicles are all armed lorries, BPUs, Buzzers, apaches and FTs with a couple of paint buccaneers. 3000 is plenty. (and excuse the red circle, that was there for a different purpose.) And that squad is loaded by one person, as opposed to a joint effort by many people?
*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Jan 18, 2011, 11:04 pm	Me, Nine, Wolf and bastiel
*goat starer* Posted Jan 18, 2011, 11:19 pm	In the original vote i voted to leave it as it was. I got up at 5am to defend the last attack. i took a half day holiday from work to fight tomorrow in an impossible fight because a nameless child thought he needed an artificial advantage... again. i still think the opening hours should be 24 for full production. I had 31 of my 64 gangers in cars waiting for FF. I am happy to fight him with a possible CR... the cr and time issues are separate.. don't confuse them please I told sam i wanted him to change the max CR of an attack because: a) it is unreasonable to expect people to play mega scouts that last for hours at ANY time. most of us are not unemployed children. we have jobs and families and commitments. b) it is technically impossible to both wage a war and defend a camp if the CR you can be attacked with is this high as you dont have time to move gangers back to the camp simple game reasons. I dont care what time an attack comes.. only that its not done in a childish stupid antisocial sociopathic fashion.
theHumungous Posted Jan 18, 2011, 11:26 pm	I also voted to keep the hours. Only defend when you can. It sucks if you are based in one spot, but I suppose that's the price to be paid. I have no comment on the max CR, since I mostly use low value myself.
*Bastille* Posted Jan 18, 2011, 11:32 pm	With lower CR it makes it easier for other smaller players to join in on defence, agree with Goat above, I have enough trouble trying to make it to a League Death Rally on time. (I have a rather unpredictable schedule)
*Tinker* Posted Jan 19, 2011, 12:02 am	goat starer said: i still think the opening hours should be 24 for full production. In an RP sense a camp that was opened 24 hours would amount to slavery. Glad the Union stepped in
*Dark Tempest* Posted Jan 19, 2011, 12:12 am	As per Joels post in the RC thread, see here the evidence that if you want change to the Camp PvP system, goat is the man to get on your side.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jan 19, 2011, 1:28 am	I don't think goat managed it, he's almost as far in Sam's ####books as I am.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jan 19, 2011, 1:29 am	*Tinker* said: goat starer said: i still think the opening hours should be 24 for full production. In an RP sense a camp that was opened 24 hours would amount to slavery. Glad the Union stepped in  Actually in the RP sense, it means you are getting attacked while normally impregnable defenses are asleep.