*Ninesticks* Posted Apr 7, 2011, 12:55 pm	Ok, so you know where I am coming from. I am, I daresay like most, fairly ambivalent about PvP - though I do lean more towards redressing what has been for a while a definite imbalance/undercurrent against PvP. This is why I think, on paper at least, that the recent trial is the right thing to do. Note the word trial, no really - note it. Purpose This change doesn't have a singular purpose, though for some it will no doubt appear so. The change isn't necessarily about making PvP more prevalent, more likely, a bigger target pool etc etc - though these may well be the effects from time to time. The change is, to me at least, about just making it possible. The rub of the matter is that it hasn't even been possible, and there can lay many frustrations for a fair number of players. Making it possible is not in order to facilitate some hidden bored elite agenda or any of the other spuriously suggested conspiracy theories. People may not take it up in vast numbers, in fact I doubt we will see much increase in PvP activity overall (beyond perhaps an initial 'new toy' phase).  But at least having it possible, so that when the need arises for a player (pick your own reason here - there are plenty) the player can at least try to do it. I am fairly sure that this is a much larger source of frustration for more players than those who have left the game after getting in a PvP fight throughout the whole history of the game. Fairness If you are scouting southern towns then your character skill set will probably be to some degree in the same area as most other players down there. Let's remember that the average skill max is around 130-140 (last time we checked iirc - metro did a good thread on that). I would be surprised if you were scouting in BL or further afield that you would be using less than 100 in a primary skill and getting much joy vs the AI. People suggesting that 'vet' players (however you decide that) are going to be ganking 'newb' players (again no good definition) just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The ONLY way this can happen is if a new player is trying to scout BL with newish crew - as I said good luck with that - it's not other players that you will have to worry about. Progression The northern triangle is more than sufficient to train crew up to 100 and beyond if you are concerned about progression. Gateway offers some good quality loot if you hunt 400 fame gangs there (buzzers for example). If you can't find any then buy one from the marketplace or ask on the market forum - pretty sure you will get a positive answer. And please remember, you can still scout down South. If you continue to scout in the southern towns and you don't want to fight a PvP encounter - pay the bounty if you are worried the other player won't negotiate. If the other player acts the prat, then put a nice piece up on the RP forums, so everyone else knows what they are like - what goes around comes around as they say. Concerns Let's leave all the name calling, conspiracy theories, overly emotive language etc out of the debate, and concentrate on having a well informed, well reasoned and well behaved discussion. Certiainly express your concerns/frustrations/fears - but do so in a manner which allows the problem to be addressed/discussed and not the just the spin being put on it. Thanks for taking the time to read this.
iceman Posted Apr 7, 2011, 1:09 pm	I might be less against open pvp if the bounties to avoid it were $000s and not $00000s It's easy for rich players to afford those penalties but very hard on non-multiple millionaires Better yet the pvp bounty fee should be set as a% of the players current bank balance
*sam* Posted Apr 7, 2011, 1:23 pm	Carefully written, and good advice, thanks ninesticks
Joel Autobaun Posted Apr 7, 2011, 1:53 pm	iceman said: I might be less against open pvp if the bounties to avoid it were $000s and not $00000s It's easy for rich players to afford those penalties but very hard on non-multiple millionaires Better yet the pvp bounty fee should be set as a% of the players current bank balance The bounties *are* in the 000s.  Only really "famous gangs" have to pay 0000s or event 00000s(only top page fame players would have to pay that with a huge squad)
*Tinker* Posted Apr 7, 2011, 5:22 pm	Well said Nine I would just add it's too bad the vets get blamed for wanting their 'end game' when all this is about is fixing something broken.
Jake Nikodemus Posted Apr 18, 2011, 8:08 pm	I'm still trying to figure out what is broken?
Kornkob The Dude Posted Apr 18, 2011, 8:22 pm	That's actually been one of the things I think has been wrong with this discussion: the problem doesn't seem clearly defined to me, which makes it hard to decide if the solution is really effective.
Joel Autobaun Posted Apr 18, 2011, 8:25 pm	Kornkob The Dude said: That's actually been one of the things I think has been wrong with this discussion: the problem doesn't seem clearly defined to me, which makes it hard to decide if the solution is really effective.  That's because there is no problem and there never was with PvP Intercepts.
Kornkob The Dude Posted Apr 18, 2011, 8:40 pm	I do wish someone would come up with a clear articulation of what the problem is that the changes to PvP were supposed to fix. I suspect that with a clearly articulated problem it might be harder to polarize the discussion.
*Ninesticks* Posted Apr 18, 2011, 8:45 pm	The problem was that it wasn't possible. Now it is. Of course what you really mean is why is it important for it to be possible? Mainly because any player activity has an effect on other players. There has to be a means where a player can react to that directly. More open towns puts that means in to place. Why the southern towns? Quite a few reasons, mostly to avoid new player hunting issues, and also because that the southern towns are actually where most of the competition for resources takes place in regards to uncommon items. Hard to say for definite, but I am pretty sure, that since this trial started we have seen a major recovery in the AI fame levels in BL.
fleau Posted Apr 18, 2011, 8:45 pm	*sam* said: Carefully written, and good advice +1 pleased to read that, more consistency and more constructive than all the other nasty thread full of shrewish arguments. thanks too.
Joel Autobaun Posted Apr 18, 2011, 8:58 pm	*Ninesticks* said: Hard to say for definite, but I am pretty sure, that since this trial started we have seen a major recovery in the AI fame levels in BL. LOL And not one intercept that I know of. It's kinda like how I feel confident flipping anyone the Bird in Toronto(cept a gangbanger), yet I won't even give an old lady the finger in Alberta (I'd get my ass kicked in Alberta and even big guys in Toronto are pussies).
John Abaddon Posted Apr 18, 2011, 10:53 pm	Joel Autobaun said: Kornkob The Dude said: That's actually been one of the things I think has been wrong with this discussion: the problem doesn't seem clearly defined to me, which makes it hard to decide if the solution is really effective.  That's because there is no problem and there never was with PvP Intercepts. Kornkob The Dude said: I do wish someone would come up with a clear articulation of what the problem is that the changes to PvP were supposed to fix.  I suspect that with a clearly articulated problem it might be harder to polarize the discussion.  Yeah, if you have been following the arguments, it seems as if it was done for one of three possible reasons - the newest one now seems to be "because it could be done" - a well-rationed argument, of course.  Then there's the "it was voted on" argument - at least that one is the fairest assessment.  Or - at least it's been my observation over the past ten months  - there are certain loud and opinionated veteran players here that have been saying that parts of the PvP system are broken to some extent or another, and have been for a very long time (PvP flags, CR adjustments, weapon nerfing, low player base, etc...I haven't bothered to keep up with all of it anymore, it just seems like the argument never ends for certain players). Of course it's pure speculation, but it would logically follow that the larger the players base is who has to participate in, or at least be threatened by the thought of PvP (as many seem to be), the more outcry there will be to fix whatever it is the players are saying is broke now...err, still?  (I haven't been keeping up on the PvP forum posts since the camp raids a few months ago, as I lost any interest to PvP after all that).  Pretty much a reverse way of fixing the problems (if they exist) with PvP by saturation.  And let's not forget that newer players will never know it was any different, of course - easier to make 'converts' when they have no choice in the matter.  *Ninesticks* said: The problem was that it wasn't possible. Now it is. See above. *Ninesticks* said: Hard to say for definite, but I am pretty sure, that since this trial started we have seen a major recovery in the AI fame levels in BL. Well, pretty much the only thing I did in BL was red (of course, being a Mutie Faction now I wouldn't touch the usual Mutie high fame gangs that seem to normally be on the high lists, so I tend to red a lot of anarchists...lol..)  Of course, there's nothing wrong with the faction system in DW, right? I haven't touched a vehicle in BL after the PvP and sniper 'adjustments', so that's one vet hunter who hasn't been out there killing things and keeping the fame in check for 2 weeks now. But the real thing that needs to be figured out is, what game is DW supposed to be, PvP or PvE?  Figure it out and leave it that way.  Obviously the PvP flags didn't work well enough, so combining the two playstyles apparently hasn't worked well enough for the 'majority' of players here.  Otherwise you'd need to make two games (or two distinct areas of Evan - north versus south, as it appears to be heading that way?)  Yeah, you will lose subscribers if you force either camp into a play style they don't want, but you can hope to make those numbers back with a better game and new players and subscribers...
Jake Nikodemus Posted Apr 20, 2011, 3:56 pm	I am going to be campaigning for a change that allows low fame gangs to use the flag accross the board. So low fame gangs can choose to PvP or not to PvP. This almost guarantees no newb or underdeveloped gang could get griefed by some uber vet. It's my version of the 'Connecticut Compromise' that addresses everyone's concerns without creating any real imabalance. Let's be honest, it makes little sense that the most highly populated town of Somerset does not allow for gangs to bump into one another.- -Jake