Giant Insects, and other wildlife
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*sam* Posted Jun 9, 2008, 10:34 am |
(Sorry for putting this into announcements, I wanted to avoid it being buried by other posts).
I have been thinking about the role of giant insects and the other wilderness creatures I have models for (wolves, bears, snakes, etc.) I'm really looking forward to introducing these to the game, and I want them to have unique roles, not just to be 'alternative NPC pirates to fight'. I'd like the battling of giant insects to be a communal concern, and for it to encourage cooperative play. The problem is of course that DW being an anarchic society generally encourages selfish play. Giving out 'mega loot' for battling insects seems a bit artificial, to me, although certainly medicines could be looted from some, and bounties/hero points could be offered. What I'd like to see is that the insect threat should be a constant one, and one that gets worse and worse unless its kept in check. If no-one scouts against them, everyone suffers worse and worse attacks during travel. I also want to make the insect threat fluctuate across the continent based on season and aurora activity. However, I have learned that I need to get player buy-in before dumping something nasty at your feet... so, what'dya all think? |
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Valiance Posted Jun 9, 2008, 11:08 am |
Hello Sam,
My comments: 1) Fluctuating through seasons and aurora is, I think, fine when it happens to OTHER people. The problem last time was that my prized laser Vixen (for example) was arbitrarily nerfed by the aurora, so I had no choice but never to use it because I might forget and take it out when the Aurora was strong and then lose it. That felt arbitrary and capricious and wrong; whereas in your new proposal, my laser Vixen will always work - I just may have to fight hordes of bugs, instead of just a few bugs. That's a pressure I can live with, and doesn't feel like taking away the fun 2) You appear to be building a Game Theory test. I'm no expert, but it looks a little like the Prisoner's dilemma. The best thing for Evan society is for everyone to band together and stamp out insects. The best thing for me personally is to stand by while everyone else stamps out insects, cos I get the benefit without the risk. If everyone behaved like me (purely theoretically, you understand), no one would stamp out any insects, human society would be extinguished and Insects will rule. (For a fascinating discussion on how this has happened - including why did humans cut down every single tree on Easter Island, even when they depended for them on survival) read Jared Diamond's Collapse). So in my view, to make this work, you need more than just an altruistic motive. You need to give me a personal, not just a communal motive, to fight insects. Some suggestions: 1) skills train faster, especially leadership, courage and gunnery, against insects. (I'd like to include First Aid in there so it can grow in combat, but not sure how to justify it) 2) Rare car parts are made with insect body parts (I'm thinking chitin standing in for plastic, acid spitters, etc) 3) Medicines, as you mentioned 4) Hero points, but with the tweaks about Jake handing out a given piece of kit, not just a Hero Point 5) Badges. I want a Bug Hunter badge I think the game theory issue is worth thinking about: Acting for the general good is very noble, but what's in it for me? V |
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Parduz Posted Jun 9, 2008, 11:15 am |
Hard to say, Sam.
I feel a lack of the "final general picture" of Evan. I mean that i don't know or see how the finished environment of the game have to be... i don't know the goal of the whole project (i'm not saying that there's not one, just that i still have to see it). So, how insects and animals are affecting the environment? Are they present also in players vs NPCs events? if so, do they attack humans no matter what side those are? As they're GIANT, do they attack cars... HOW? I just see melee combat (really, can the "fire" somewhat?) If they are dangerous in travels and nothing else, then they'll become "just" another thing to worry about, without any real effect on the game other than making travels more dangerous for newbs and more worhty for vets (if the killed "creatures" give you somewhat worthy) If a player can scout for them, then they'll become just an alternative, that may be ignored or overused depending on what's the prize for hunting them. IMHO, you need to well integrate pirates and insects in the "Evan life", or you will end with just another "mechanic" without any "feel". I'll throw some idea: As pirates actually makes travelling a risk, i'll go toward somewhat else.... maybe insects can damage thing in the towns if not hunted and mantained far (just like rain damage things in camp.. they may appears from the ground if you don't go fight the "nest" in the wild). So you may want to fight them just to keep what you have, not to gain somewhat (which may happens if you find some rare beast....when "rare" means "rare", not overpowered or only localized in some hard zone). If insects are "nest - based", you may use Nests like camps: you've to find them before going fighting them. Then you have a "normal" combat event against the insects, and if citizens do it with some regularity, the nests will "move" far from that town. If they only do melee fight then you can have some advantage from flamethrowers and close combact weapons, which are not well used right now. I'll do travel encounters with insect very rare: that's the reason we have predefined routes... or do you plan to do "offroad" travels? If i can go (as example) from a camp to an another (or from a SS camp to Elm) without following routes, then i can see the risk of having a "nest" encounter, or somewhat similar.... pirates should challenge the routes, insects the wilderness. If a route is not used then insect could go towards it (that route is becoming "wild"), while a well used route should not have insects risk. Going offroad in a map maybe can allow some insect to appears...but if you're already chased by NPCs, now that they start driving well, then i think you (the player) have enough to worry about. It may depends on how much hardcore DW have to be when it is finished. So, at the end, i'll like to see insects and animals as "living part" of the environment, not just as other thing that walks on it to be killed. |
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Valiance Posted Jun 9, 2008, 11:49 am |
I particularly like this one of Pard's suggestions:
Insects are particularly prevalent on the routes to camps - because camp members are already working together, they have a real incentive to smoke out insects, maybe even pay people to do it. |
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*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Jun 9, 2008, 11:50 am |
"Nesting" is a damn good idea for the insect cadre....
They dont settle in one place if they are constantly attacked and killed off. Rather, they move the 'nest' to other suitable places and begin multiplying in that spot. Suitable loot could be 'Chitin Armor'. better than "B" armor but less than "A" Taken from the insects exoskeleton. (50 skill mech needed to take the Chitin) Also, for 'acid' using insects, you get Medicines as long as you have a 50 skill first-aid character/member. |
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Parduz Posted Jun 9, 2008, 11:53 am |
OUCH, i may have not explained well. I used camps as an example of a thing that is not existent right now: travelling NOT in routes. Routes (all) should be secure from insects, maybe depending on how much they're used. If i can make a travel between two places that DON'T have a route (like camp to camp) then i'll risk insects instead of pirates.... hope you can understand me 
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Alocalypse Posted Jun 9, 2008, 11:59 am |
If you want cooperative play on a more 'macro' level compared to squads then I think you just need to give players the option to coordinate multi-squad attacks.
Stuff like calling a second squad to help if you have an arrival encounter (this would really need the "Check for arrival" button) to either try to fight off the pirates/insects, join your damaged cars in a fight for the pirates or try to distract and draw them away so you can make a run for the gates. Or insect hives being so massive that they need to be attacked from serveral directions by different squads at once because any single squad would get overwhelmed too easily either by multiple (hard) road encounters on the way to the hive or just sheer numbers due to the whole hive going berzerk. While using more strategy the smarter humans could slightly confuse the insects and gain an advantage. After the first strike from multiple directions there'd be more battles which get either harder or easier depending on how well the squads participating do overall. That's a few examples of adding more cooperation other than just scouting together and providing resources for camps. |
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Lung Posted Jun 9, 2008, 1:46 pm |
I never liked playing any games where insects were involved. Jagged Alliance (which i believe was the best turn based, squad type shooter) had an "insect" variable. You had insects instead of men/women. It just changed the whole atmosphere of the game and was not well received by the warmonger player that wanted to play against humans. I think most of us play DW for the car and human/NPC killing.
In DW however, where there is a "wilderness" to endure, I believe there is a place for insects and wild animals as long as they do not "over" infulence the game world. Sure an attack on convoys here and there with wild hyenas, dogs, and lions would add to the realizm but an attack of wild ants or bumble bees that wipe out an Apache (or any vehicle without windows - like a Buggy) is just not realistic or what I want to deal with in this car game. I should be able to roll up my windows and survive just about any insect attack. An animal however should cause a little more danger. Again staying in the car is the bettter survival tactic. Peds on the other hand would have to deal with both animals and insects and both could cause death to peds, player & NPC alike, if not dealt with properly. Gaining skills, abilities and bulk goods from insects and animals should be the player influence to go after them. I think insects in DW should only be "pests" not players. I think it's more important to "adjust DOWN" the ability to fire and the firing accuracy of NPC vehicles after they have been Demoed. |
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*Zothen* Posted Jun 9, 2008, 1:59 pm |
I dont know what animals like wolves, bears and snakes should add for the gameplay? I dont like games where you have to grind animals for exp or loot, cos its the most clear reflection of how cruel mankind deals with animals. Also animals would hardly attack cars... in most times not even people. Please omit grinding animals. Insects on the other side are rather more "alien" and would fit much more into a post-apo-setting. | ||||
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*sam* Posted Jun 9, 2008, 2:22 pm |
They would mostly be important in the pedestrian-only missions (investigating the ruins, etc.). You might occasionally meet some mutated animals that would be large enough to attack a car, but that would be rare.
That was never intended. I already said I didn't see much loot possibilities with insects (and even less with other animals). And as for experience, as you know there's plenty of other ways to improve that, so there's no questions of "having to" grind against animals. |
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*Zothen* Posted Jun 9, 2008, 2:36 pm |
Yep, "grinding animals" was rather related to the usual big commercial MMOs on the market these days, that only past and copy their ideas so they dont might risk loosing any of those players who are conditioned to the "gaining gameplay style". Im very happy for every MMO that walks another way.
Imo, DW needs more stuff that brings players together. I see too much of us playing DW rather as massive-singleplayer-game than real multiplayer. Trackevents with more than 2 players have become very unlikely and unfortunatly playing in the wild alone pays off much better... So a big "Yes" for anything that emphases multiplayer at a larger scale! |
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*Lugal* Posted Jun 9, 2008, 5:27 pm |
Tell that to the lorry-sized beetle. Sam's not talking about swarms of mundane bugs, he's talking about encounters with Them; human and larger sized insect muties. Personally, I'd like to see bugs implemented in two ways, encounter-based and region-based. Encounter-based simply means chance encounters with one or a few bugs out in the wilderness, taking the place of pirate attacks, etc. This aspect could go live once the bugs themselves are done, both as a 'test' and as a realism factor (a few sightings here and there before the swarms arrive.) Region-based could be done one of two ways. First, and probably easiest, is centralize bug activity near one town - say Morgan for example. If you want to fight bugs, go there; if you hate bug-content, stay away. There'll still be a few random bug-fights all over Evan, but the big battles are more or less in that one area. Make the incentive either a 'drop' from the bugs or access to the town's resources - too many bugs and players lose the town until they take it back. Second option is to group the bugs like pirate gangs around each town. That way they can be hunted if strong, and also beaten back so that they're not much threat - in that town. This way could easily be tied into the Local Hero system. Either way, giving the bugs camp-esque nests is a great idea. I think the mechanics behind camp combat (once available) could be used for 'nest combat' - the only real way to drive back the bugs. |
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*Longo* Posted Jun 9, 2008, 7:20 pm |
Sam-
On occasion, when we lose a battle, and our guys dont make it back to camp, they die of starvation or are eaten by wolves , or whatever. It be cool in these instances if there is a chance that a box comes up and says "Johnny Danger is attacked walking back to town. Would you like to fight for his life?" Then your ped(s) get a chance to stay with your gang, in an encounter with a pack of wolves, or a giant bear. Yes, it would really stink if you forgot to load your ganger with a weap, but oh well. Shotguns would be the weap of choice vs a bear of course At least we would get a chance to save our ganger in this situation.
As for bugs, Id just introduce em as encounters the same as pirates for now, and see how it goes. Then you can expand on them after getting more feedback. And no, I dont like the camp only roads for bugs. With the BL camps, there is already enough on the road to have to worry about. |
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*sam* Posted Jun 9, 2008, 8:32 pm |
That's good, yeah. It would be much more approriate than a bear attacking a squad of cars. I actually plan to add another thing that can happen after you lose a battle: you get transported to Firelight as slaves and have to fight for your freedom, gladiator-style, in arena combats there versus insects and animals. |
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darthspanky Posted Jun 9, 2008, 9:41 pm |
please give us the chance to capture our own prisoners that we can transports and sell in firelite or eat since we will be a canibal gang when focuses come out. i like the idea of expanding character play after event in the wilderness.
perhaps give a night type mission when bugs come out more on foot or in cars and just use maps but get a better chance to find bugs and if people dont hunt they start to attack during normal encounters. nest clearing would be fun for ped encounters. or have an encounter where we find bugs attacking what we were scouting for and a multi squad war could start all to see who brings in the insect heads. like a town event first squad to bring home the most insect heads wins the prize? but pirates attack too. lol i wanna see mikes 17 car squad alos 20 car squad and everyone elses vs 1000 bugs lol ok ill stop. perhaps the bugs are attracted to something (gas food water)we all need and use and if there not killed off stocks run out? or have diffrent bugs attracted to diffrent matereals. i like the idea of looting something from the insects medicine, weapon/armor components. perhaps body armor or some other rare new item could be created and used with this loot or allow the dead corpses with a good mech could maybe add some armor to a breeched side as a temporary patchwork to get home in a dammaged car? |
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pweelg Posted Jun 9, 2008, 9:58 pm |
I think the use of Hive insects offers many possiblites,
from raiding their underground (old army base?) nests ped wise for rare parts (eps?) To defending towns and camps, iin large scale events similar to the npc v npc events. The suggestion to encounter animals and defend your self is a very good one, i like that a lot. Of course this then opens up the whole flying thing |
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darthspanky Posted Jun 9, 2008, 10:09 pm |
can insects be created and or controlled as my mad dr spankenstien suggested or hired to do a contract? hehe
ps that camp i sold ya jd was right above a nest lol. |
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Valiance Posted Jun 9, 2008, 10:14 pm |
darth is back and he used a punctuation mark. I saw it. | ||||
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madmax Posted Jun 9, 2008, 10:30 pm |
2 actually, but only the period is special. He uses question marks even on non questions.
Valiance is back too! |
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darthspanky Posted Jun 9, 2008, 10:56 pm |
hey im learning puntation#.,/ see i cant even spell it right????? lol./,.,.,. | ||||
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Acierocolotl Posted Jun 9, 2008, 11:32 pm |
With regard to giant bugs, I expect that they would be a threat to travel. Well-travelled routes would be protected against giant mutant bugs, or travellers would have a number of anti-bug weapons, which do little to nothing against cars. A few examples:
Pheremone Lobber (a CGL that fires stink bombs that attract bugs) Smoke Clouds of any sort would drive off bugs (think bees and smoke). Flame of any sort. In addition to the flamethrowers, perhaps a Molotov Launcher? (A compact, 20-space CGL that makes low-damage flame on impact and for a few rounds thereafter). Loud noises (flash bangs, for instance) might work well on more "normal" (used loosely) animals. Or giant air horns! (If you had a low-space airhorn that I could "fire", so many of my cars would have one, I swear it.) Cowcatchers: They act as rams, but knock the critter clear of the car, to one side or the other, so vehicles wouldn't get hung up trying to run down big bugs. The point is that the main roads between cities would be relatively safe from bugs and animals. Going offroad would be another matter, as that's where the critters are more likely to nest. Now, with regard to town attacks, I have mixed feelings. Having special 'events' is quite fun, and I'd like a crack at 'em. As for a reward, well, what's the most critical resource in the game? FOOD. That's the whole back story. I bet Jake has got all kinds of recipes for Grilled Megabeetle Haunch in Acid Spittle Sauce. Yummy! The towns themselves would be interested in keeping the dingdang critters away from their fields (or petroleum facilities), but I'd like to see the rewards stilted more towards the smaller player, if only so that it doesn't become another monopolized resource. I do like the idea of infantry-based combat, but this seems somewhat secondary to the notion of cars, in the main (though I'll concede the need to code neat, different stuff from time to time). Still, the notion of finding ruins (with critters and/or enemy gangers, mutants, or mothers-in-law) has appeal and lends more delicious crust to a well-baked post-apocalyptic pie. |
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*Zothen* Posted Jun 9, 2008, 11:53 pm |
hm, can psyonics control bugs? | ||||
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*Longo* Posted Jun 10, 2008, 1:53 am |
Yea Sam, the gladiator thing is cool too. Maybe also have the opportunity to buy back your ganger there, or buy someone elses for the right price. FL needs some reason to go there, I cant see one myself right now, and I am a pirate!
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Marrkos Posted Jun 10, 2008, 2:13 am |
If this happens it would be nice to be able to then buy that character back from the player able to get into and out of FL, but that means, theoretically, that any character could be traded in this manner, which could be dangerous. I've tried to get there, and have yet to be successful. 
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BWGunner Posted Jun 10, 2008, 2:57 am |
All great ideas. I can't say enough that I'd like a chance to fight for my gang members, either by duel with random wilderness creatures, or by fighting to survive in Firelight (and are thus stranded!!!).
For the present I think a simple random chance to encounter a bug, or a bug and a few little ones (no animals in car encounters, please) would spice up things a great deal. Especially if the bug waited about 50 turns and just erupted into combat, turning on whoever was nearest. Of course we all love the ideas of ped encounters in nests...except that none of us would ever do it. :-) Lastly, I'd love to see the random mutant animal ala Godzilla. Something one person encounters randomly, and probably gets killed by. But they come back to the lobby and say, OMG! You have to see the Giant Fire-Breathing Goat with the pod of flying whales that shoot electricity! Suddenly there's an impromptu group of players out to take the newest "boss" on the block. Imagine the crazy fiction! Make attributes and squad characteristics random like character names and make it about a 1% chance of any gang appearing. The plot tie-in? We're the survivors and have basically found Eden. But the rest of the totally messed up world is coming to eat the apple...and we're the only defenders. Now in 10% of those make a hive entrance appear. The survivors get out of their cars and take the chance of going in...TO THEIR DOOOOOM! |
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Kermit Posted Jun 10, 2008, 3:43 am |
I don't want to fight insects or wolves or whatever. I play this game for the cars. | ||||
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*Longo* Posted Jun 10, 2008, 5:59 am |
Markkos-
FL is very hard to get to. I used to be able to truce my way in and out. But I cant anymore for whatever reason. I pulled my peopel right out of there for the time being. I lost 4 buses coming out of there in the last 3 weeks. And there isnt anything to see there, although the maps there are very cool. |
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Six Gun Jack Posted Jun 10, 2008, 9:38 am |
well my 2 cents worth is I would rather see cycles and big rigs first. I would much rather encounter a rabid 12 member cycle gang in my big rig tanker, than rabid bugs and animals. just my opinion, leave that junk to everquest and the other boring mmos.
Now having said that encountering them on Ped maps would be kinda cool for a change up, seeing your peds eaten or whatever, but the only bugs a car should see is splattered on its windshield. and animals are just roadkill. |
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*viKKing* Posted Jun 10, 2008, 1:01 pm |
Again, size of bugs we talking about is really larger than that. If you catched one on your windscreen, you would certainly be in troubles. The bugs concept is a real tribute to post apocalyptic movies from the 60s, or Starship Troopers (the movie). A highly irradiated world like the one we have can not miss giant bugs. 
In my opinion, bugs should be encoutered during pedestrian events, most of the time and randomly (with less chances) during travels. The chances to meet them would be very low on scouting. As for bugs attacks: acid spit, flamable goo, darts, etc. |
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*sam* Posted Jun 10, 2008, 1:17 pm |
Correct. I'm hoping to have the bugs present a challenge thru weight of numbers rather than individual strength. Although that may not be possible due to polygon count. |
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Parduz Posted Jun 10, 2008, 2:12 pm |
Holy cow! Do you want THAT amount of insects? really? I mean, in ST there was a war between 2 races... i was thinking that that was not the DW world status. I can accept an hostile environment, but having to fight to avoid estinction is too much, imho. The premise is that this is a car fighting / racing game: if humans risk to get wiped away, do they really fight in deathraces??? Sorry if i repeat myself, but i can't really see where DW is going. |
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*sam* Posted Jun 10, 2008, 2:25 pm |
No, I didn't mean so many that you'd be fighting them all the time. But when you are fighting them you'd be facing 100+ of them. | ||||
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Acierocolotl Posted Jun 10, 2008, 2:49 pm |
An option: This business with the bugs should be totally optional. Some people feel really strongly about it.
Perhaps one of the newest towns has a bug problem, then? You'd have to explicitly choose to go there, and there shouldn't be any tech you just can't live without there so people don't feel like they have to go to be competitive. As for polygons, there's something about the towns themselves (which I presume are quite polygonny) which slow the game down a lot for kalimonster when she's got them on screen. A lot of bugs may produce great slowdowns for some folk, which again is why I suggest the optional part of this. |
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*sam* Posted Jun 10, 2008, 2:53 pm |
Yeah, I'm getting that feeling too acier... Rather than make them totally optional, I think it might be best to scrap the idea of them being a major threat that people need to group together to keep in check. So they will be a threat to pedestrians, and used in special 'walking home' scenarios as well as pedestrian-only maps and Firelight arenas, but they will only very rarely attack a vehicle squad. |
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Alocalypse Posted Jun 10, 2008, 3:12 pm |
That sounds cool (though I'm a bit worried about the polycount too since I have a pretty crappy video card :P) I for one am very positive towards insects to add variety to the game...
I think making them an overall threat to *everyone* might be a bit extreme, especially if there's player opposition to that sort of things. So I think it'd be best to localize the insects to a region/town whose survival would depend on our support. There should be some kind of new gimmick to the town to make it desirable to visit and scout from. I rather liked the player-run/influenced town idea, posted a while ago (even if the effect of player actions is mostly superficial). |
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Acierocolotl Posted Jun 10, 2008, 3:26 pm |
Almost too bad. I seriously wanted to install a cowcatcher on one or more of my vehicles. (I wanted this enough to consider trying to model one.) |
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Alocalypse Posted Jun 10, 2008, 3:36 pm |
Bah, those things are designed to push stuff out of the way, I'd rather have something that's designed to KILL! 
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Parduz Posted Jun 10, 2008, 4:07 pm |
I never know if i'm clear enough in my posts, so i want to explain me better:
i've nothing against insects in general. I'd like to have a "living" environment to play with....so i may like Bugs, animals, birds to be hunted and selled to the town as a juicy food variation, companions, mascottes, circus and Zoo .... i just don't want them as a solid part of the game.
Going far with my imagination, i would like a lot if you can choose to play a career in DW: if you want, you can play as a to be a trader, as a pirate (slaver?), as a pirate hunter, as a bug hunter, or as a racer. I'm not talking about choosin a "class", but you should be able to make a specific reputation depending on what you're doing. Right now, racing does not pays well (think at today F1 pilot!), trading is somewhat risky and not really paying (imho), so we all go scouting 'cause it is the best way to make money. Town should suffers if insects are not constantly keeped away, and so they should "pay" for this service, so a Bug Hunter can make a living from this, and other players should see that animals just occasionally, 'cause in a wild world it can happens...sometime. Untils the DW society is not balanced and evolved enough to give to players these options, each new kind of "enemy" is just something that will bore some player and will excite other, so you (Sam) will be "forced" to build "hunting zones" for each kind of enemy...which to me sounds much like a very big training camp than to a "real world". There's nothing wrong in having different zones with different problem, but since, in this game, money matters (at least under a certain amount) you'll always end having players going where the income is more, with some exception for the ones that REALLY likes some part of the game no matter the incomes. Frankly, i'd like much more to see your efforts spent to keep the "Bugs" thread empty for a month or so, and some more AI,Physic,Peds improvement before putting additional meat on the fire. This is not a critic on what you're doing or planning, just my very personal opinion mixed with the reasons that makes some of my friend ceasing to play here. |
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Flaming savage Posted Jun 10, 2008, 4:43 pm |
GIANT INSECTS!!!!!!! THERE WONT BE ANY PEDS LEFT TO KILL!!!!! | ||||
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Alocalypse Posted Jun 10, 2008, 5:19 pm |
A slight tangent, but related to the strenght in numbers thing:
What about zombie-peds? 
I know it's a different kind of post-apocalyptic (but they could be rad-ghouls or whatever). Maybe this could serve as a special halloween-only event or something, just to throw it out there... |
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1Sauber1 Posted Jun 10, 2008, 5:33 pm |
I support having lots and lots of bugs attacking vehicles.
I also like the idea of having one of the new towns having bugs and a really high encounter rate of bugs. And maybe you could enter the hive and find rare cars in busted up shape? Like they've made a hive on a junkyard, and maybe this could be the only way to get a fiftyseven or deville? I don't mean 2000 Km like I did last time. That was stupid. It could be an arena of sorts -as in the level design- because of the walls of cars, and there are waves of bugs and the last one is a giant one and then at the end you get to loot a few rare cars based on the number of cars in the scout. I'm not saying make it an instance -Like in WoW(No I do not play it)- I'm saying make it an option to hunt bugs and maybe if you choose it the only map for it is the hive -In the town with the hive, of course-? I'm done ranting. |
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*sam* Posted Jun 10, 2008, 7:22 pm |
I spent almost all my dev. time in the past month improving AI and dealing with bugs. I'm moving back to the development of more ped stuff (arena combats and NPC ped AI) before moving on to insects. The current thread was really putting my concepts for insects out to the community to see what you thought; I won't be actually working on them for at least another 2 weeks. |
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Parduz Posted Jun 10, 2008, 7:38 pm |
I saw this and it seems to me that all the community is happy about how things goes now. Me for sure. I apologize if my sentence seemed harsh about what you're doing, or if it sounds so bad to force you to explain where you're working in this months. it was not my intention; i don't have any right to tell you what to do or how doing you job. You asked for though, i give you mine in the most "open" and frankly way.... doing my best in a foreign language. So, sorry again if i seemed "rude".
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*Lugal* Posted Jun 10, 2008, 7:42 pm |
A number of us have suggested the idea of having the bugs be more or less restricted to a certain region/town. So far I've only seen support for that idea. Establish some incentive to being there (but not one that's 'overpowered'), so people can choose to do it or not, based on personal preference rather than "I need to kill bugs to get X so I can win." Something as simple as the bugs drop chemical/organic matter than can be used for medicines - 'bug goo' (or whatever) becomes a viable trade item in other towns. This game is great for its growing number of options for players to make 'careers' for their gangs - town events, scouts, various missions, etc. Why not bug hunting? I'd much rather see something like that than make the bugs fairly nominal. |
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Six Gun Jack Posted Jun 10, 2008, 7:57 pm |
I think my post may have made it seem too strong against them. I do like variety, I think they do have a place in the world, like you said it is an irradiated world, just like mind powers and mutants will come in later too.
I think against peds is the best bet at first. You mentioned special walking home ped encounters, I do like that, you escape a combat as a ped and take your chances. Instead of rolling randomly to see if you make it you have an encounter with insects or wild animals. And definately a ped should not be totally safe in an abandoned vehicle plinking away at the npc cars. "hey whats that behind you ! CHOMP ! " |
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*Chase Bansi* JohnBMan033@aol.com Posted Jun 10, 2008, 11:54 pm |
Months ago when bugs were first mentioned I recall someone suggested a connection between insects and psionics. It could be from an near fatal sting, or the venom used to manufacture Y-46.
I believe this idea deserves further consideration. Maybe with Firelight being so remote it is a good candidate for infestation. It would create a reason for squads to go there and those that want nothing to do with bugs could easily avoid them. |
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4saken Posted Jun 11, 2008, 2:06 am |
wow, there's ALOT of things to consider in this thread.
anyway my feeling is that, at least for now, bugs should be a few and far between thing that might add a little flavor. there has for instance been mention of them being attracted to fuel, and i could see having a battle with some pirates and there a few bugs on the field. these bugs may or may not be a threat, so it may not be a good idea to waste ammo on them. they could flee, be indifferent (possibly being a hazard to movement), or perhaps later in the battle, when there are wounded peds about, some might get aggressive. thats just an example. when i say few and far between imagine if Sam encoded a few bugs to be added to a random scout that day as a one-off thing. no one would know what their capabilities were, and it would cause quite a stir, especially if such things were seen again later. using this train of thought almost anything could be coded as a one-off, essentially an "easter egg" encounter that could lead to further things. this would be even better if there was some kind of template and someone besides Sam could add such events, so as to not have extra workload on him micromanaging such things. as to other stuff, i'm all 100% in favor of fighting stuff on the way home when stranded, having a possibility of "local wildlife" in ped events, and fighting my way out of slavery. i'm pretty sure everyone here would be happy to see these things added. also someone mentioned motorcycles. i'm definately in favor of cycles now that we have ped code. they would be a foolish endeavor, unless you're an NPC gang i would think, but who cares? they're cool. and they have their uses. i think skills while on a cycle should level real fast, especially courage! Zothen > Imo, DW needs more stuff that brings players together. I see too much of us playing DW rather as massive-singleplayer-game than real multiplayer. hmmm... unfortunately we didn't do much to discuss the whole thing of working together. sadly, zothen is all too correct. it's easier and usually more lucrative to scout by yourself. no idea how to address this situation overall, but alo had a great idea tho for at least one situation... > ... calling a second squad to help if you have an arrival encounter... anyway, i could ramble on. just wanted to touch on a couple things. |
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BWGunner Posted Jun 11, 2008, 4:52 am |
So in summary:
1. Encounters while walking home - good. 2. Cycle gangs, ASAP 3. We'd team if we were allowed to call out to each other for help. 4. Which sounds like introducing 3rd party aggressors mid-battle 5. Which could be bugs 6. And we all want a Godzilla assembled from 5 giant bugs ala Voltron with cars for body armor and a giant lightsaber...and Cthulu tentacles...gotta have those...and it has a super breath weapon that fires live chicken, and it yells at you like Beaker from the Muppets! YEAH! Perhaps that last one was just me....dang. |
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darthspanky Posted Jun 11, 2008, 9:34 am |
perhaps a good money sink could be like my mad scientist spent 1 mil and created a npc insect hive/gang, with like a certain bulk for weapons that the creator could add. also a target for them to attack a camp,trade route, specific gang, ect.
these bug gangs can be wiped out (perhaps only by killing queen in a ped bug nest hunt) and recover slower. they could be added like a npc gang in each area depending on who spends the money to create them and turn in a bug weapon design and target for them to attack. id like to create one to attack bounty hunters. or create one large fire breathing lazer eye shooting hv oil farting beetle that tries to destroy sommerset MUHAHAHAHAHA |
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Parapsycho Posted Jun 11, 2008, 10:12 am |
I like the input people have made so far.
For keeping insects optional, how about having an 'Extermination' mission type. The mission giver would pay the player a certain amount of money upon winning an insect scout, or offer you a per-kill reward on certain species. That would make insects more optional, while adding a little to the roleplaying aspects of DW. Someone could become a 'professional bug hunter' of sorts. |
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Flaming savage Posted Jun 11, 2008, 6:02 pm |
     Mabey mutats can ride giant flies  
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BWGunner Posted Jun 12, 2008, 2:04 am |
It would be cool only if they are mutant time-traveling samurai riding giant flies...
...and he's fighting a psionic worm that cruises the seas of sand like the ocean, and he has seven heads, each with its own elemental power, and each head has a nose ring built in the dwarven mines for each race... Crap. I did it again. |
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BWGunner Posted Jun 12, 2008, 2:06 am |
It would be cool only if they are mutant time-traveling samurai riding giant flies...
...and he's fighting a psionic worm that cruises the seas of sand like the ocean, and he has seven heads, each with its own elemental power, and each head has a nose ring built in the dwarven mines for each race... Crap. I did it again. But honestly, what's to keep DW from crafting its own mythos, it's own hierarchy of man? What is to keep Dark Wind from taking Mad Max and blowing it wide open into mad MAXX...or the Tick...or whatever Sam thinks is amazingly cool? Who is to say that these things even need to persist? Open your minds, your guns will follow! |
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t0rp0r Posted Jun 12, 2008, 3:29 pm |
I am also in the camp that giant insects, while not completely out of place, aren't the only answer to adding variety to the car combat. Same with ped missions. We could certainly add more car-based mission types, individualized missions, missions that have an effect on the game world (i.e. frontal assault on a gang hideout, etc.), and missions with special rewards (expert trainer for certain skill, etc.) other than monetary.
Also, I think there needs to be more motivation for the racing circuit, as currently there's very little money compared with scouting, although obviously not as much financial risk. If I recall the corporate sponsorship is supposed to add flavor to this, but there could certainly be additional elements such as gang rivals on the race track making a certain gang more likely to target you in a death race or combat; higher prizes for races where you supply your own car; and special bonuses or awards (as per above) for placing high in the racing leagues. After that, insects would still be cool and I'm not opposed to having ocassional encounters. Cooler still would be insects attracted by squad vs. NPC battles, that attack both sides, but it's not necessary to kill all the insects to win the fight (maybe they eat the losers, who knows?). |
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Flaming savage Posted Jun 12, 2008, 3:45 pm |
Mabey we can raise insects in camps to defend them. | ||||
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t0rp0r Posted Jun 12, 2008, 4:39 pm |
Oh noes! It's SWG all over again! Grinding by killing creatures! Pet trainers becoming way over powered! Sorry, I had a flashback there. That's actually not a bad idea. |
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Flaming savage Posted Jun 12, 2008, 6:13 pm |
Or train them to make medicnes? | ||||
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*Zothen* Posted Jun 20, 2008, 12:42 pm |
Fellows, I see talks about getting medicines from insect parts without a useful suggestion what those medicines should be good for!
Without knowing what medicines should be good for we are up a blind alley, cos it just looks like an good idea but in fact its an idea without substancial use (yet)! |
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Hula Posted Jun 25, 2008, 7:52 am |
I know what you're saying Zothen, but medicine is fairly generic as things stand, surely we'd just be handing over the best bits (carapace, or the insides) to the person who was going to process em...
Boot full of giant roaches anyone? |
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*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Jun 25, 2008, 10:14 am |
From another post in the Badlands Truckstop RP section:
Gregs' well exercised caution and scouting ability served him well. The dust plumes he saw leaving Badlands were members of the Badlands Rudeboys. He needed to get past the last of the Pirates surrounding the Truckstop. Greg stopped on top of a rocky outcrop and watched them through his binoculars as they stitched their way past him, running the 'lows' of the dunes looking for any possible vehicular prey. These were 'Fast movers' meant to kill. They made it to a large cliff and were stopped side by side, nose to tail. The drivers obviously talking.....Possibly planning their next travels. The movement in the cliff was what drew Gregs' eye first. He swiveled the binocs on the movement and let out a "HEY!" before he realized the drivers of the Rudeboys could not hear him. There were 2 caves in the side of the cliffs next to where they stopped. One closer, within 20 meters of the pirate patrol and the other farther, at least 50 meters from them. The near cave literally erupted with 'insect' like creatures scrabbling over each other to get out. The two drivers of the Rudeboys didnt event see them until there were at least eight of the six legged monsters on them, each one as long as their Phoenixes. The 'insects' Greg saw were scorpions like he saw in the school books, but different. One of them reached into the driver window of the farthest car, with a 1.5 meter claw and pulled the poor driver out. His seat harness held him until his right arm was ripped free of his torso. The screams could be heard from here, where Greg watched. Not the low gutteral moans of a fast death. These were the high pitched, screeching sounds of an agonized, delayed, wrenching of life from the living. The second car moved with a start.....and stopped. The driver could be seen hitting the dash as he tried to find the starter button. The seven other unoccupied 'scorpions' surrounded the stalled Phoenix. Greg saw the movement before he heard it. Two rooster-tails of dirt sprayed the two 'insects' behind the stalled driver. Then the sound of a well tuned V8 motor roaring. The driver turned hard right, directly into and under one of the scorpions. This scorpion sidestepped the Phoenix while raising its tail over its back. Just a sparkle was all Greg could see. Then the sound, 'Ponk---------Ponk' The car kept moving away from the six-legged monsters until it got about 15 meters away. ALL of the scorpions had regained composure and aimed their tails at him..Their tail tips opened in wide three way clamps. Greg saw two ground flares where two projectiles hit. One, 1 meter from the car and one directly underneath the bumper. He saw the others etch a dotted line up the trunk, over the roof and off the hood to the ground in front of the car. The car swerved, hit a small dune, and rolled on its top and stopped moving save for it's tires. He couldn't watch any more. The high scream filled his ears until he fired the engine and turned back toward the Badlands Truckstop. Greg looked at the bright blue color of the Aurora. "Good GOD! Where the hell did these monsters come from?!" He thought to himself. "Goodness had nothing to do with it.... HOPEFULLY, God didn't either!" |
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*jimmylogan* Posted Jun 26, 2008, 4:22 am |
Reading this makes me thing the insect thing would be good...
JL |
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*Toecutter* Posted Jul 25, 2008, 5:36 am |
I'm Thinking that bugs would be a great thing to introduce a community event. Periodic attacks on towns by bugs where peeps can bring in their own cars and get bounties, maybe even getting hero points for each bug squished. Then after a set period another "community scout" to eradicate the bug nest.
this could be a weekly occurance or monthly, tho 2 should be set up to accomodate the different time zones (always the persistant bugbear isn't it? )
of course random encounters would always be an option. Sam, yer looking at an opportunity here to get players working together (or maybe I should address that to vikk lol ) This could also be a gateway to introduce mission based game play as well, odds so great that it takes groups of players to complete, tho the "CR" rating might be fixed for the bugs so that working as a group is a benefit, not a hinderance as scouting is. I mention that because I never lose a scout on my own, only whenever i try to "help" out the newbs (just ask spanky on that one lol ) as the opposition odds only increase with the greater CR of bigger scouting parties. A story line involving the bugs and missions based on it would be great
EDIT: Oh yeah, eradicating the nest would be a great ped combat scenario too, not accessable by cars, Vikk design us a cave lol, buses load up the troops! |
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*Toecutter* Posted Jul 25, 2008, 5:51 am |
Boy I just thought of neat new ideas relating to this ped based mission bit too so Sam can bring out all of his wonderful creatures
1)missions in the tavern; Kill the bears, snakes, bugs, whatever that has plaging somerset, gateway, etc. go to such and such place on the map (random pirate attacks on the way may occur, come prepared) 2)Random big bug attcks on scouts occur frequently unless someone takes out the nest (one gang must be ambushed to get location of nest) makes attacks less frequent in area. 3)Bugs give loot vital to some sort of component production for camps, Bug Hunt scenarios result. 4)Periodic Bug assaults on towns, all hands man yer battle stations! May result in lock-up loss if bugs win. 5) bugs if left unchecked will affect trader supply anyhoo out of beer, out of ideas, but I think this line of reasoning could be expanded on
tons of opportunity for ped vs bug combat here
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Jaguar Posted May 14, 2009, 6:18 am |
Bugs and other animals would perhaps provide resources and materials. Special kinds of food which provide a bonus to the city it is sold to, requirements for paintjobs, decoration for the car (bug horns on the hood!), things like that.
Plus, they may have 'eaten' rare things. Nothing special or unique but another method of which to get something. |