Garage Fees and Lockup Fees
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*sam* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 6:01 pm |
The new garage fees and lockup fees (increased particularly in the dangerous small towns) are now displayed on your gang's lockup and vehicles pages.
Note that these figures are not yet being charged, and until 3rd Sept will be for information purposes only. There is still some room for maneuver on these - it's all about balancing of course, so please do comment if you wish... |
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*Longo* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 6:27 pm |
$287,650
And I have sold over 30 cars in last 2 days. $216,436 is BL. I have managed all of the other towns except BL.....its my "Hub" town...my home so I have more cars there...Any chance of designating a home town and getting a discount? |
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Serephe Posted Aug 27, 2009, 6:38 pm |
Longo, I think the reason that your fees are so high is that BL/GW are such small towns.
Your hometown idea is a good one. Though I think it should increase the cost in other towns by a fraction of the decrease in your home town. |
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*Longo* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 6:45 pm |
Thats fair. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 27, 2009, 6:50 pm |
Agreed as longo i have sold over half my fleet in past two days, my main base is BL my leader is there and my top gangers, so off course my best equipment is there. But the BL garage is probably costing me 80% + of my entire garage fee which at present is 87k | ||||||||
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wounded Posted Aug 27, 2009, 7:01 pm |
My fees for 10 vehicles in GW are over 18k. Which is about the same as a profit of a single average scout.
The 45 vehicles in somerset cost only approx 5k, so the difference is very, very steep. Each car in GW costs the same as 15-20 in Somerset. Scouting from the truckstops might become very difficult for casual players. The updated fees will most certainly steer the action away from the truckstops and towards the towns. |
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Jety Posted Aug 27, 2009, 7:04 pm |
My total fees for cars and lockups are $260k per WEEK. And I didn't even think I had that much stuff. That's a million a month. Talk about a false economy...
What's so wrong with hoarding? It's good enough for dragons. I don't think that this is at all reasonable. |
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Serephe Posted Aug 27, 2009, 7:09 pm |
My fees of only 20k compared to the fees of the other make me feel that this change is geared toward folks with my play style.
And that I am alone in it. 
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*sam* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 7:29 pm |
I went to the code to remove ammo.. and found that they have actually always been ignored for lockup costs. The main reasoning behind this is that they're a pain in the backside to buy only as you need them and are in any case always available in the NPC shops; hence we're simulating you only buying them as needed but actually not forcing you to do it.
Tyres are less clear.. the storage cost isn't just about protection from the elements, it's mostly about protection from theft. Jety, wounded, etc.: Maybe we should reduce the large hike that has been made to the small towns and truckstops. I'd rather wait for some more feedback from others first, and possibly run a vote if necessary. This isn't so much about stopping hoarding, as about creating a moneysink. Yes, the economy is out of whack and this will hopefully help it; it will certainly reduce inflation. I think storage and protection fees really would be very high in Evan, with piracy murder and theft so common. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 27, 2009, 7:42 pm |
I may seem to be on all the time, but if you check my events for the past week, you will see that i don't make many scouts, so i may scout as much as a casual player. only as an example and not a complaint, to make my garage fee at present would be extremely hard work, and would feel like a required grinding, to be able to just stay on par ( please this sounds like whining but isnt ) so i think this would really impact a player that wasn't so much a community person as myself, but a player that just occasional jumps into lobby, play the odd scout and race, may find it hard to keep his gang alive and his interest also | ||||||||
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*Ninesticks* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 7:55 pm |
Have yet to work it out in detail but by the looks of it I have about 250k in garage and lockup fees a week. I have just sold enough cars to make 1.5 million to the shop too :-). Guess I will have to sell some more stuff off. I like the hometown idea, how about making it so you get a discount based on how many gang members you have there to represent providing your own security? (maybe ganger hours if possible to calculate - much like training is). | ||||||||
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*Fourhand* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 8:03 pm |
I still think this is unnecessarily hurting the more casual player. My garage fees alone are over 52 grand; there are many weeks I don't make nearly this much. Is your advice to me to "Scout more?" Depending on people's schedules they may not be able to scout enough to cover these new prices. Which could drive players away. | ||||||||
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*viKKing* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 8:04 pm |
Seconded! Ok, I admit I only own one car in Somerset... 
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pweelg Posted Aug 27, 2009, 8:06 pm |
136 k a week here
14.8 k on one vehicle, good job i sold those 2 other ft's !!! i Like the idea of a home town very much, that would help I certainly dont scout anywhere near enough to cover the cost, i dont cover the cost of my fees at the moment anyway !. The incentive to scout BL would seriously disappear at these rates, unless rares would appear more often i wouldnt bother staying there to be honest. I rarely keep a vehicle i loot and with vehicle storage costs being 20 x the value of SS whats to stop me moving back there and grinding to keep the money rolling in if that was my motivation? I understand the need for a money sink but i think at this high will just empty those "premium" towns. |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 8:09 pm |
well my fees are 212k for garaging.. thats with storing a great big bunch of faster pussycat race cars in most towns.. and having a pretty big stable of cars...
I'm cool with that.. its what.. 4 scouts to cover all my garage costs... lockup is only 22k which is looting one pho in SS. BL is expensive.. but then BL is tiny... move the cars you dont use out of BL and its not a problem. very few people can have that many cars they actually use... just move the vanity collection to SS and bobs your uncle! |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 27, 2009, 8:11 pm |
maybe you can make 50k in one scout if its a BL solo goat, i certainly cant and you honestly scout more than the average player wouldn't you say. | ||||||||
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lordbam Posted Aug 27, 2009, 8:14 pm |
I might be the only one, but i actually don't mind the new fees.
What is the use of having 20 buzzers in 1 town. it's not like you are going to do a 20 buzzer scout. At the moment i'm selling all the crap i don't actually need and that is a LOT. The new fees will force you to sell stuff you don't need, and will never use. This will make prices drop and stop inflation. The only cheap town should be SS, to help the new kids. example A squad with a Firetruck and 2 buzzers will cost you about 20K. If you have 2 of those and some other stuff your monthly fee will be about 60-80K. And just be fair, do you need a lot more? I know the amount you see now is a shock, But that is becouse your garage is SO big with stuff you don't need. As for the implementation, i would advise for a gradual approach over 5-6 weeks. This will give players time to adjust and sell stuff. |
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*Fourhand* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 8:15 pm |
I also feel that this change will dry the small towns up to an extent. I have a couple of apaches sitting in Badlands TS waiting on the occasional scout. If it costs me nearly 10k a week for these to sit there then I am going to move them out and not even scout there.
My suggestion would be find another 'optional' money sink. |
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Jety Posted Aug 27, 2009, 8:15 pm |
1) Four scouts per week just to break even is a pretty serious time commitment for a casual player.
2) I think everyone will agree that driving players back into Somerset is seriously counterproductive. |
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*Ayjona* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 8:31 pm |
Very few casual players move their vehicles to BL and GW. I'd say the veterans and the hardcore crowd will be the ones affected by this, not casual players, as they, to a very large extent, remain in SS.
Yep, agreed. The need for increased incentive to scout the more dangerous towns existed already before. The gains of battling sissy pirates already outweigh the pros of taking on the big'uns in the badlands region. With increased costs in BL and GW, we need even more incentive to scout those areas. That said, I am not at all opposed to the new costs. Quite on the contrary. I think it is a great idea. But it needs to be accompanied by increased opportunity for monetary gain in certain regions, to partially balance the new costs. |
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metrocube Posted Aug 27, 2009, 8:40 pm |
Wow.
$2000 per car in Badlands. $2500 per car in Shantytown (why not free for such a lawless place?) $3000 per car in Firelight. $8000 for my Firelight bus that I don't have an engine for and can't drive out. vs. $150 per car in SS. $100 per car in Elmsfield. Yeah, I can see the writing on THAT wall. |
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*sam* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 8:57 pm |
Still thinking about it guys.. don't worry, I'm not going to roll this in if its of a form that is damaging to the game.
One idea I'm considering is making a smooth increase in garage fees across all towns rather than loading the increase into the truckstops. So overall we get the same sort of moneysink but without the undesirable effects on the truckstops. |
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wounded Posted Aug 27, 2009, 9:05 pm |
Sam:
I was not complaining about the situation. It was merely an observation as I thought that your intention was to shift the balance towards the bigger towns, which in RP terms would make sense. Though the numbers, when counted in terms of "how much do i need to scout to maintain my current garage" puts things in nice perspective. It sure might be painful for people with huge garages now, but it might be a sensible thing in the long run gameplay wise. Or then it might just tick people off as you can't play DW-pokemon anymore  (gotta catch 'em all!)
It is a very tricky question indeed and I certainly don't envy you for the task ahead 
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*viKKing* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 9:17 pm |
And what about an entry tax for every town/truckstop instead of a high parking fee.
The price would vary, based on number of vehicles already present in the place, without limiting them in real numbers, while a storage cost would still be applied, but lower than currently proposed. For example, we could say Badlands TS can only host 50 (players) vehicles at once, so once this number as been reached the tax raises. My point is that if we raise storage prices in towns, people will move out into truckstops that are supposed to be smaller in size. This won't feel right. So I would like to propose an increase in storage fees, based on the number of vehicles present for a player in a given location and an entry tax for every incoming vehicle in a town or truckstop. Yes, it means, an entry tax for scouts as well. I really mean each time a vehicle is crossing those damn gates.
The storage fee should be a 10% increase per vehicle present. For example, a fee of $100 would be $110 for the second vehicle and so on, unless it leads to higher numbers than currently. I don't think storage fee and entry tax should be fixed as well they should be variable, depending on number of players vehicles present and location size. |
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Speed_Melon Posted Aug 27, 2009, 9:32 pm |
This does seem to hinder the experienced player who has a large stable but does not/can't scout much. Last week the wife and kids were out of town, I was able to net a 100k and participate in group scouts. This week I'm in the hole 88k because I haven't been able to scout as much and paid for repairs from the group scout. ("A" Armor Rampache was fun, but expensive to repair.
I realize game mechanic wise why people are saying no one should have that much stuff, but it is a game, and accumulating neat stuff that one can use on a moments notice is part of the fun. Also having money to buy stuff enables me to be a little more cavalier about my equipment. |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 9:35 pm |
yep... but unlike the 'average' player i dont charge 120k for a V8 .... if i did all i would have to do in BL is loot.... ONE ... YES PEOPLE ONE...black stone a week and i would have covered the costs of my gang... thats with teh best part of 60 cars in the garage and 62 gangers the lot of you stop complaining.. most of you have stupid bank balances and yet you seem to think this is gonna bankrupt you? where do you think you got those bank balances???? by making ludicrous profits.. this is at worst a measure that will force you to think before clicking buy on everything in the shop |
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*viKKing* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 9:43 pm |
Even if it is true - and it must be - you can"t say it that way, but have to find a solution to sink this money unnoticed. 
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 9:49 pm |
dont understand Vik... the money sink that was just invented makes perfect RP sense.... it sinks cash... why cant i say it that way?? because it might offend a bunch of whingers and reactionaries like my good friend Grograt  ?
If so you are quite wrong and i CAN say it that way and will say it that way next time I speak to him.
and Metro... WHY DO YOU HAVE A BUS IN FIRELIGHT WITH NO ENGINE?????? more to the point WHY DO YOU WANT TO KEEP IT?????? |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 27, 2009, 9:53 pm |
no goat im not whining, this will cause me to not be able to have vehicles in the truckstops, i simply do not make enough money to keep anything there. i sold everything else. i wasn't rich before hand but this is going to hit me, this proposed figure for the fee at present i find to steep
just my opinion |
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Speed_Melon Posted Aug 27, 2009, 9:54 pm |
Not all of us have made money through ludicrous profits. I've got a good bank balance that I've managed well and conservatively. There are a lot more people who have bigger bank balances who have managed their money well and taken larger risks.
I enjoy the game a lot more when I have cushion as opposed to grinding my way through just to meet weekly expenses. I get enough of that in RL. I like the Tax idea vik, |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 10:02 pm |
gro.. as far as i can tell you scout mostly with me out of BL.... you bring 2 buzzers and sometimes an ammo buccy. so what else do you need there??? that would cost you 10k ish to keep and you make that by bringing home a symphony in reasonable condition. move the vanity cars out of the truckstops and play the game the way your gang would.. if its not needed for survival bin it. if you were scouting with 20 buzzers out of BL i might think you had a point (although the loot potential from those scouts would be so much more). |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 27, 2009, 10:08 pm |
I have six buzzers in BL thats it , should this change really have to make a player have virtually nothing vehicle or weapon wise to achieve, i am sorry but your argument here is very anti a playstyle 90% of the game has i would imagine, i want to own at least a few things. i own 5 rares, proper rares , ive been here nearly a year, i dont own a camp, i dont own a mortar, i dont own a H/Laser i dont ..... etc, so if i dont own any of those at this point, what chance have i to strive and own those in the future, if i simply cant afford too. | ||||||||
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Jety Posted Aug 27, 2009, 11:02 pm |
Collecting things is fun. Period. This is the central dogma of roleplaying games. Take that away and you might as well play arcade games. Gathering strong gangers, strong cars, and lots of cash is FUN. It's what most gamers find rewarding about playing games. This sort of change is punishing what 90% of people regard to be the reason they play. I think it's misguided.
There seems to be about 10% of the player base that thinks that having nothing is fun. I get it. But it's wrong to force the other 90% to play along. As for town size. Why the hell is BL a truckstop other than that's what it's been named? Over the course of the game years it has developed a large population and grown into a town in it's own right. Why not just acknowledge it's no longer a truckstop and call it Badlands Town? |
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simonmaxhill Posted Aug 27, 2009, 11:24 pm |
Jety's point about BL is really salient - a place like BL would be the natural seat of empire in Evan. They are the choke point between technology (the south) and necessities (the north). Any empire builder worth his salt would quickly park his army in BL or GW and start taking a cut of everything that moved this way or that.
But I suspect we're going to get into a hair splitting argument about genre conventions. One of the problems with having a post apocalyptic "society" is that at a certain point, it is going to be a little more post and a little less apocalyptic. The persistent world and accumulative nature of RPGs makes this evolution somewhat unavoidable. That is, unavoidable except by natural, arbitrary "disasters" - which appeal to some people, but not to most, I'd venture. But I still like the lockup/garage fee change. I'm not sure it isn't just a new challenge to be overcome/worked with, as opposed to a reward-system disrupting kludge for a supposed economic simulation. I'm willing to give it some time (although my lockup fees are only 110k a week now that I've shed a large number of chassis.) |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 27, 2009, 11:31 pm |
well fine.... but frankly i dont get it and if you all want to play a game that enables you to create little safe empires then I dont think its the game for me.
I guess people play games for a lot of reasons.... my reason is for a challenge... darkwind pretty much ceased to be challenging a long time ago. My people never die. I can replace anything i lose easily. People here are suprised when they lose stuff and its just anathema to my understanding of why I play games and the RP setting of this one. Essentially what Jety says above emphasises the problem for me... this game has been turned into a collection... top trumps with battlecars... rather than a genuinely challenging environment. For many people that fulfils a basic need to control and posess that is hard to find in RL but it doesnt fulfil the other reason for playing games... which is for the thrill. I have a lot of subscription left so i guess i will be aroudn for a while and it will be interesting to see how the game does develop. If it were up to me I would say implement the changes and let everyone who doesnt like em leave... but then it isnt up to me is it. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 27, 2009, 11:40 pm |
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lordbam Posted Aug 27, 2009, 11:41 pm |
I noticed collecting rares is the BIG argument to not have this increase in "taxes".
Heavy lasers, mortars and rare chassis cars won't increase the anual price much. About the I'm getting taxed to much: 1 buzzer in BL will cost you: 4K a week. So if you want 6 that will cost ya 24K a week. The only reason i can see to have 6 buzzers in one town is you use 2 buzzers a squad and want to have buzzers repaired while you scout with others. I use that same trick. but if you scout like that, 24K should EASILY be covered. STOP COMPLAINING and just trim your garage. A garage with 50K worth of cars can easily cover my weekly needs to scout and give me enough choice. Sell of the fat (see my garage post) and just keep what you need/want. This change would force you to sell stuff faster instead of hoarding 50 HGG's and 20 V8 engines. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 27, 2009, 11:43 pm |
Thats your opinion and my views are mine, call it complaining if you wish, you have had the collect everything own everything phase, some of us havnt. discussion if against your view isnt always complaining, do i flame you for liking the idea no
Great how this subject has me arguing with people i dont normally, maybe you should consider that after two years or more you have done everything some of us are trying to achieve still, when we get to the oint you are at, we may have the same views you have now, but we havnt reached that point as yet. Im sorry goat but your ' Its my way or the highway ' statement isnt exactly fair. I myself havnt stated that i dont like the idea, i am just stating the idea in its present form i do not like, as it effects the game for me just as you wish the changes remain as posted because the game at present is not what you want . but why cant a happy medium be reached by discussion, rather than a statement such as' this or nothing' |
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lordbam Posted Aug 28, 2009, 12:04 am |
In SS: 6 apaches. 10 phoenixes. in BL: 3BPU 3 buccys 6 buzzers 1 FT 4 expensive muscle cars. that is a garage that would keep you busy. it doesn't need to get much bigger. Howmuch weekly fee will you be paying? 50-60K tops? A garage like that should easily cover your expenses. You don't have time to scout, well then you don't need 6 buzzers... Grograt, i'm not picking on you, i'm just using you as an example. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 28, 2009, 12:10 am |
i understand Bam its because i am the only one posting, just please remember when you started and the joy of collecting those rares you own. If im wrong in my opinions so be it, i cant continuously post the same reasons i consider this hard for me this all seems that its hurting friendships as well as the game for me at present, best i bow out of this conversation.
87k garage fees 7k lock up fees, before i make anything for repairs repaints ammo fuel etc |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 12:17 am |
gro.. its not 'my way or the highway' ... i am simply putting forwards the point of view that if the game is glorified top trumps then its not what i want to play...
frankly I'm really disappointed... I felt Sam had made a brave move to make the game more challenging... I hoped that people would realise that the collector urge keeps a very few people in the game and that for every collector a whole bunch of gamers leave... I thought people would say.. lets try it and see... |
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*Lugal* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 12:22 am |
Alright, time for another book.
Chapter One: The Early Years
Doc quoted me in the other announcement thread, from a discussion quite a while back. That might even have been during my RC days, but I can't recall for certain. I still stand by that opinion. I like the proposal. Sure, maybe the actual numbers should be tweaked (and they will, I'm sure), but I think this is needed. There is nothing wrong with hoarding equipment and cars, but there's a realistic need for financial output to protect said equipment and cars. You can RP this however you want - garage space, private security, propaganda - it doesn't matter. But as a simple game mechanic, you probably shouldn't be able to store scores of cars in a single town at a cost nominally more than someone who only has a single car in the same town. Sure, a lot of things are simulated (didn't know about the ammo - that's actually really nice to not micromanage the costs like that), but it has to be grounded (somewhat) in reality. You don't have 'bank slots' that exist in pocket dimension; these vehicles have a socioeconomic footprint as well as a physical one. I consider myself to be an established but casual player. I'm looking around $60k per week to maintain my fleets and lockups. Personally, I think I have too many cars, because I'm a packrat. (my cost is relatively low because most are gathering dust in Somerset, as opposed to gathering dust elsewhere). For the sake of argument, let's just go with the current numbers. I'm looking at $60k a week, so I have to make a value judgement. Increase income to cover the increase in overhead, or decrease my stock to sufficiently lower overhead? The right answer is up to me, as it is for everyone based on their playstyle and values. In other words, if you want to play collector, you have to pay for it. Chapter Two: Yes, I'm still talking. The other side of this as a game mechanic is that it's a money sink, and I think it's a good one. It forces you to pay to have more. This is good design for a money sink, because new players aren't going to see any hit, but the very wealthy will see a large hit. (again, the values can be tweaked; I'm focusing on the mechanic itself.) It makes perfect sense within the setting. It's not some arbitrary tax code inflated based on income levels. Everyone needs to bear in mind that a money sink is a money sink. It makes economically excessive currency disappear back into the system. As in, you have less of it, because you have so much that inflation threatens the game stability. If you have millions of dollars (or tens of millions) in the bank, and you are upset at the prospect of a money sink actually working, take a moment. In closing... So sure, we look at the numbers. We bounce them around. Even in the end, some folks will be upset. That's not intended, but not all development - not all improvement - to the game is going to be embraced universally. |
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Jety Posted Aug 28, 2009, 12:33 am |
Just wanted to inject this tidbit:
As far as money sinks are concerned, my camp has gobbled up about 13 mil in the last 4 months. I believe lattes has gobbled about 16 mil. That's not insignificant. Nor is it really sustainable. |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 1:04 am |
yes it is given that in the past year of gameplay i have seen (unless i am mistaken) latte anounce first hitting the 20 million mark and then the 40 million.. its a pittance when taken against the actual income from gangs that are that big and the actual costs of running those gangs. And I dont see anywhere your comparable figure for the game value of good Produced by those camps.... how much is an ambulance worth? so yeah it is sustainable... i have put something like 5 million dollars into Airstrip 1 and Bedlam,,, i still have a bank balance of 6.5 million today and thats funding camps that dont make anything for me at all. Now i may be wrong but i believe the investment people make in their camps is entirely part of the collector drive... its the only way people can get ambulances out of them... you didnt HAVE to spend that money to run an effective repair facility in camp .. you CHOSE to because you wanted something. The amount of cash you spent on it simply reflects its market value to you (if you doubt that put it up for sale.. there will be plenty of people who will but it even though they have seen your figures). Latte does not have to buy spnsorships.. he chooses to to enable him to make baubles (this is NOT a critiscism Latte.. i actually think i understand what you gfet out of the game and i dont want to see you prevented from getting that - but i honestly dont believe these changes will prevent people owing what they really want to own) Camps are a money sink in the game.... and despite this they havnt stopped the bank balances spiralling out of control... I was speaking to hula today and he told me that he started he found camps in the wild and sold them.... for $50k |
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*Longo* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 2:13 am |
WE have seen one too many "I"s and "MY"s in this thread. WE all play this game in a different way. If WE, the majority thinks this may hurt OUR gameplay, then maybe WE should request this be tweaked a little bit.
And dont tell ME to sell MY stuff. I don't want to hear how exited YOU are to buy the explosion of cheap rares in the market because MY god your game play sux and YOU cannot earn the stuff YOURSELF. I dont want to hear how easy it is for YOU to maintain YOUR gang; that WE should be like YOU and play like YOU. I don't want to play like YOU. Maybe I dont even like YOU. I don't want to hear about YOUR gang of 2-3 cars and how good this new change will effect YOU, because it WONT. -------------------------------------------------------------- I want to hear how YOU, the casual gamer, will be effected by this. Will it slow YOUR game and will WE see less of YOU? I hope not. I want to hear how YOU love this game because there are so many cool skins and chassis that you can gather and collect. WE are not the same as YOU. On some days, WE scout about 8 squads consecutively, so WE need 14-24 cars in a row. If WE don't have these, WE will only scout 25% as much
When WE get bored, WE scout different towns. WE need cars in every town, because WE use travel cars to get to the new town, and want some ready to go when WE get there. Less down time, more scouting. Take these away, more down time, less scouting.
Sometimes, WE do Pro events. WE need a few different racers, deathrace cars, and arena cars in order to do this. Take these away and these already seldom played events will become extinct..too bad.
Sometimes WE help camps out. WE use lorries for this. Without these, WE dont help camps anymore.
Sometimes WE fights pirates. Sometimes WE fight traders. Each type of scout takes a different type of car setup. With less cars, WE may not be able to do this. WE may have to scout less. WE have a large bankroll. WE earned it. If WE want PVP, WE need to make it work. NO FEES in Shantytown. I got 2 damn cars there. I wont have ANY if you charge me X6! There will always be heavy gamers, medium gamers, casual gamers, and light gamers in any MMORG. WE must accept it and treat all fairly across the board. Sign me Longo, the Terrible 
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*sam* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 11:35 am |
Compromise is definitely the key, and Longo is quite right that there's an issue regarding different playstyles - casual players in particular I think. | ||||||||
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Swift Posted Aug 28, 2009, 11:35 am |
I like the changes and think they are for the better. Before, once you get the hang of the game, money becomes useless. I could make 500k a week in solo scouts and did spend like 20k doing that. And I prefer to go and "earn stuff (my)YOURSELF", as Longo advises. And I do scouts in SS not really for money, but for training newbie gangers. Why do I get paid for it so much? No money sinks? No camp until I get 10 mln. to pay for it? Not much want to have camp either? Ridiculous.
But after talking and reading a bit, I think the system could use some tweaks. 1. Make it so theres no need to pay for first 3-5 vehicles in truckstops. There can be RP reasons for that. Like for example the owners need some "guard" vehicles so they use some incentive for gangs to keep vehicles there. Or its incentive for traders to pass through them and buy owners fuel. After that, the prices are exorbitant. Lack of space and all that. 2. Pay much more money for winning pro races. They should pay for itself, so there would be no need to scout for pro racers. Armor repairs for qualification (say 4k, A armor) + armor repairs for race (8k) + a few weeks worth garage cost (8k) + bonus (x2) = 40k for 1st place sounds about right. 3. The rest should stay as it is (or rather, as it going to be on 3rd September. Maybe be even costlier). The idea is to force funneling rare/non used stuff to SS for hoarders (where it could be seen in newbie scouts and pro races and give additional incentives for newbies to branch out), make it easy for people to branch out into truckstops, make it easy for casual players that play once a month to keep some battle vehicles in truckstops for more interesting scouting options (you can scout almost all maps from there, do you), and make some money sinks along the way. Unfortunately, there will be time sinks created too (funneling to SS and money making for hoarders). Well, we don't destroy your ability to hoard. It's just made more meaningful process -- where the game tries to force you to make meaningful choices what and where to hoard and so make each car you keep more precious. If that's a problem, let's have a vote on elimination of concept of money from the game outright. Because if money becomes meaningless so fast and so completely (well, it did for me , why have it at all?
One caveat: uncontrollable hoarding kept rare stuff rare. With these changes, next round of tweaks might be to make rare stuff, well, rare again. No more razorbacks in SS, no more BPUs in GW, etc. EDITS: readability and mistakes. |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 11:38 am |
sorry longo ..i dont recognise this 'WE' people can only speak from their own experience and it seems to me that there is simply 2 types of gamer here. I'm not sure there can be a compromise between the challenge and collecting because the one negates the other.
I'm afraid that there are a very small number of people here and if it is the game play of the majority who are here now that is making lots of other people leave then they are not the majority. Its like going to france... changing it so its not very french. waiting for all the french people to leave because they dont like it and then saying the majority of people in France like it the way it is. |
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Serephe Posted Aug 28, 2009, 12:25 pm |
I'd like to say I'm part of the challenge crew -- the best fun I've had since I started playing again was on a return yesterday, when both my vehicles were breached in multiple places before I finally managed to demoralize the last pirate car.
Sure, now my cars need to be repaired -- and now I have to wait to scout as much as I usually do -- but that is the cost of FUN. It wouldn't be fun if I could just replace it with a snap of my fingers. |
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*viKKing* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 12:32 pm |
What's your real address already? 
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 12:56 pm |
LOL - that gave me my first laugh on here in days... cheers Latte |
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Serephe Posted Aug 28, 2009, 1:16 pm |
Why not try 1x/2x/3x rather than 1x/3x/6x then?
And perhaps value of loot when sold to the shops in the more expensive to live areas. |
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darthspanky Posted Aug 28, 2009, 4:58 pm |
i cant see how much new rules will cost cause im unsubbed or in vacation mode cant see the cost of garage fees can see the wages.
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Serephe Posted Aug 28, 2009, 5:04 pm |
IMO it should be really cheap for you Spanky because http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLsJyfN0ICU . | ||||||||
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darthspanky Posted Aug 28, 2009, 5:10 pm |
no those are the guys from docs gang lol hes the piratre king
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Fealty Lost Posted Aug 28, 2009, 5:11 pm |
I used to have a bank account...that I had figured would last me quite a while before I decided to come back and start killing things again...
...imagine my surprise when my cash went away. I like having lots of vehicles, because I scout BIG...12+ cars each scout, usually 15 at a time...so I need 50 vehicles in one place to maintain my play style. Now I can't. I'm not into collecting anything...having a camp...making tons of cash...I finally moved to Elms...and now am getting hosed for it? Why? Tell you what...I'll just move all my vehicles OUTSIDE...since having a space for them really doesn't do anything for you...so that should take care of the 'storage' fees, right? If they're parked out in the dirt...who's storing anything? My gangers can just sleep IN them, since I don't actually have a base/camp/place to call home anyway. Since we have to pay the town shop to maintain and fix our vehicles anyway, that should take care of all my costs, yes? Cool...now stop taking my money please. Serephe...how about 0x/0x/0x? |
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pweelg Posted Aug 28, 2009, 5:52 pm |
I dont scout anywhere as much as i did when i first started this game, and my outlook on this is very similar to Gro's
As a casual player now this suggestion would hurt me as it is. Do i have a large fleet....yes pretty large Do i need it that large...Nope Should i be force to sell it....Maybe if this was a real world thing but as always...its a game and balance must be struck. I also don't want to be forced to scout for junk to sell when i would rather be in a fun DR with my online time. Am i a hoarder ?.....yes definetly...I am very glad i hoarded my Heavy lasers now they are virtually gone. But i think several people would testify to me giving stuff away (btw Latte you still owe me a HL )
Would i move my stuff back to SS ? for a 10 fold reduction on storage and bl the way it is now...very probably. As such Vikk's Gate tax sounds the best solution to me at the moment, fairest implemention of the money sink...just got to get the figures right. |
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*Longo* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 6:17 pm |
I hate to use WOW as an example, but they have implemented money sinks in a good fun, way. When you reach a particular "level," you can pay atrocious amounts of cash and get something cool. ...I mount that can fly, or can move faster. Maybe Sam, we could steer away expenses that are required, and towards a goal that could be an optional thing.
Call them Champion Achievements, make them OPTIONAL, hard to attain, and costly. Make a badge for them. Just to throw some suggestions out - Charisma Achievement - an extra 5 gang members - 5 million dollars and (add something else here) Traveler Achievement - costs 5 Osprey, 5 Flail, 5 Phoenix, 5 Sunrise, 20 Dustups, 20 Buggys, and 1 million dollars - Permanent 10% reduction in travel time. Helicopter - Your gang has acquired a helicopter. Once per week, your helicopter can fly 1 ganger safely from SS to any town, with no encounters. You may offer this service to other gangs for a price. Cost - 5000 gas, 5000 CPS, 5000 EPS, 5000 Scrap, and 10 million. Could also fraction these numbers instead and pay per ride, not actually owning the helicopter. 1 million game dollars for an extra skin? These numbers and examples are just put here to point a cool direction to go in.... huge money/asset sinks to achieve a small, but unique benefit. Im sure the community could come up with some great ideas here. Much better than raising expenses which negatively effect us. |
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Fealty Lost Posted Aug 28, 2009, 6:35 pm |
Oh, I see a helo'...I'm shooting at it. Safe passage my arse. If there are helo's, does that mean there is now aviation gas?
If yes, I want some...me 4-liters be thirsty. Real men don't play WoW. But lots of third-world/communists do and make a good living on EBay. |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 6:47 pm |
so a humungous discout from you would mean.... erm.... still selling it at a stiupid profit.
just move the things. |
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*Lugal* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 6:48 pm |
Not required but optional... ooh I got one: Collector - You can hoard as many cars as you want, but you have to pay the storage fees.
I couldn't resist, bro.
In all seriousness, I could really see something like what you said working here. The basic formula of dumping cash / items in exchange for some customization is an appealling and effective mechanism. |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 6:52 pm |
LMAO - absobloodylutely |
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*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Aug 28, 2009, 6:59 pm |
I like the suggestions here... especially the "traveler achievement" but I'm not sure what you meant by adding the cars in there... Did you mean that you have to HAVE those cars in your garage before you get the achievement? If that is the case, someone with money "could" just buy the cars from other players and gain the skill. There HAS to be an easier solution that wont have Sam coding for a week for this addition AFTER we start finding the bugs! Oh yeah..... Any choppers beware, I shoot at ALL flying objects! |
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Serephe Posted Aug 28, 2009, 7:04 pm |
Flying objects beware: Radar guided missiles in use in this sector. | ||||||||
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*Longo* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 7:07 pm |
These would be donations to get the achievement, you would lose them. |
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*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Aug 28, 2009, 7:23 pm |
Ahhh...... Like donations/payments to the bank of Somerset!.... Gotcha! That sounds like it is a LOT easier on the coding work for Sam. DAMN good idea! |
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*manglemybadger* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 7:47 pm |
If hiking garage fees is an attempt to create a money sink, it is an indirect one with possibly a lot of negative side effects. This reply is huge, so if the wall of text bothers you, there's a summary of the benefits at the bottom. If we need to get rid of the money, we should target the money directly. We can do what my allegedly capitalist society does to "reward" its more enterprising and successful citizens - they hit them hard with obscenely heavy taxes and take huge percentage cuts. The richer you get, the higher the percentage they take. I propose this: The higher your net worth, the higher percentage of it you are going to lose to the state via a taxation system (complete with loopholes for the immoral! - more on this below). (I only recall Evans' economy from 2 years ago. It is clearly different now , so these amounts are only an example. They will need to be adjusted based on today's hording and stockpiling standards.) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx OFFICIAL TAXATION: The tax works kind of like Uncle Sam's. Net Worth is the total value of your cars, lockups, and cash banked in Evan's banking system. Tier 1 - Your net worth up to $1 million is taxed 0. Tier 2 - Your net worth from 1 - 5 million - you pay 17% monthly Tier 3 - Your net worth from 5 - 10 million - you pay34% monthly Tier 4 - Your net worth from 10 million and on - 57% monthly So, if your total net worth is, say, 6 million, you'd get taxed: The first million gets taxed: Zero The 2million to 5 million gets taxed: (4 million * .17) $680,000 the last million gets taxed: (1 million * .34) $340,000 Total Taxation Monthly on 6 million net worth: $1,020,000 ($680,000 + $340,000) The more you make, the more they take! Obviously, these tiers are crude, and my end numbers look harsh, but I made them only as an example. Disregard them. I used these specific percentages only to illustrate a possible system. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Now, something like that could be the "official" system, but this is Dark Wind, a place I equate to the lawless West of American history, so we need some outside system / tax loophole to appease the scammers, frauds, tax dodgers and generally immoral among us. "I AIN'T PAYING NOTHIN'" DEALING WITH EVERYONE'S ACTUAL CASH Everyone gets 2 bank accounts for their cash, an official one (the one we have now), and a second "dirty" one. Real examples of the "dirty" one are called by all sorts of names (Black Markets/Money Launderers/Offshore Accounts), but they all are used for one purpose, dodging taxes! You can divide your wealth any way you like between the two accounts, but using either or both will have its own unique consequences. Placing money in the official account will invite it to be heavily taxed by a tier system similar to the above, but you will be of clean conscience and maintain a good reputation. Additionally, and most importantly, your money will remain as safe as it always has. Placing money in your "dirty account" will make it invisible, and consequently untaxed, by the official tiered taxation system. You will, however, have to pay a percentage to the backroom illegitimate entities that are laundering your money, but it will be significantly lower than the official tax rate. Additionally, having your money in such an account exposes it to a certain level of risk, and you also risk tarnishing your reputation (see below). The Little Consequence: The more cash you dump into the unofficial account, the more suspicion you generate. In game terms, this means your reputation score will begin taking hits. Everyone knows you are making more money than you are declaring, they just haven't proven it yet. The Medium Consequence: THE AUTHORITIES ARE NO FOOLS (well, not as foolish as you believe, at least). If a player goes overboard and hides the bulk of his wealth in the dirty account, for example, declares $1 million in his official account, and places $20 million in his dirty account, THE TAXMAN COMETH. As a random encounter, Evans Official Tax Authority shows up as an intimidating squad that demands you pay X amount of back taxes or they will attack, just like how ransoms work (or at least used to. Do we still have them?). You can fight them, and you might win, but your reputation will take a hit as you have just attacked an official authority of the territories. They will show up now and then, and continue to extort, er, I mean collect, your taxes. You can deny them and fight them all you want, but your rep will suffer. A Bigger Consequence: Since money in the unofficial account is "off the books", it has to remain more fluid. Maybe this dirty money is moved around from safehouse to safehouse to dodge official inquiry. Gamewise, this can lead to players hunting for "money trains" - NPC convoys that are couriering other players' dirty money. Maybe the dirty money players can run escort missions on their own cash, operating just like the bank-owned stagecoaches in the wild, American West. If a money train gets taken down, ALL players with money in the unofficial account take a little hit on their bank balance. So, you may want to escort those money trains if you have a heavy investment in a dirty account. Also, if you have money in a dirty account and you attack a money train, the NPCs that launder your money may decide to fine your account for being a jerk. Benefits of this taxation system: It targets the cash directly without consequence to scouting out of certain areas Its tiered structure can be configured not to hurt the small fries Its "loopholes" give players options to avoid the taxation (at risk) It adds appealing gameplay elements to the unappealing concept of surrendering your wealth Its "money train" concept empowers poor players to strike out at the rich, and rich players to actively defend their property against the filthy commoners. Negatives of this taxation system: It's a little complicated for a new player to grasp The hording-of-wealth type players are still taking a hit on their property There is coding involved to create it The tiered system, the reputation hits, and all consequences would need to be carefully balanced. It is not an immediate solution to the "we need a money sink" problem |
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Groovelle Posted Aug 28, 2009, 7:50 pm |
Are you kidding me? Everything in this game is based on reality. If, because you donated 60 cars and 1 million dollars to the car gods, you were magically granted the ability to cross between two points faster than me, I'd be pissed. Did you really just reference WoW? Really? WoW? Dark-Wind is the ANTI WoW. Dark-Wind should have nothing in common with WoW and following in WoW's shadow like that is a hell of a slippery slope. What next, trade 10 Stormers for a revive?
Have you seen Badlands truckstop lately? It boggles the mind that someone would be able to store 50 cars there, and his buddy can store 50 cars there. His rival? Yup, also got 50 cars there. Keep adding in the people, keep adding in stupid amounts of cars. It would be too much of a pain in the ass for everyone if we used the physical barrier of the truckstop as a limiting factor of storage, but garage fees are a good compromise between realism and gameplay. It's a game mechanic. To the topic of being pissed that noobs like me are getting rares: So what? If we're noobs, and we are, we'll use em, and probably lose em. Real quick too in some circumstances. Then the pirates around Somerset will be sporting pikes and ospreys. The humanity. They'll get circulated around, actually used, you'll see them more, and, shocker, you'll be able to replace the ones you lose for damn cheap. Wait, nevermind, it's probably more fun for everyone if it sits in your garage as a trophy of your skill. I'm hungry now, so I'm gunna go make a sammich. Nevermind, just thought of something. This might be the trump card of motorcycle type gangs, if its implemented. All things being equal you could have tons of bikes stored for less price than a handfull of cars. Make em tough to hit, able to be broken down and stored in a larger trunk after a scout, add some sort of defensive driver ablity inherent to em and bam, a hell of a way to run a crew. |
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*Longo* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 7:56 pm |
How can you relate to the major negative effects of this change and comment on a suggestion, having played Dark-wind a mere month? |
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Groovelle Posted Aug 28, 2009, 8:24 pm |
Well damn, thanks for the warm welcome. Nice elitism ya got there. Anyway, I'd say my qualifications here are:
1. Powers of observation. In a reality based game, where space is limited, we're all just a scratchin' to survive, we have to fight for food, and I can't get a gas can in gateway you want no limit on the army you can amass and effectively remove the balls of this game. There needs to be a limit on gang size and vehicle size, period. Why? Longo's Merry Men have 8 gang members and 29 vehicles, including a two axle lorry, in Somerset. The Load Runners Have 24 gang members there, including the 'Desperado' squad: 5 riflemen who like it rough. In a perfect world the Load Runners would catch your men in Dexters, or maybe even at your garage, and murder them. That two axle lorry? Gone. Oh wait, TWO two axle lorries. Gone, gone. Osprey, Flail, big pickup. Gone, gone, sianara, thanks again. The Runners would take what they wanted, and sell the rest. You'd have trouble recruiting there what with no living members and would have a snowballs chance of hell ever getting back what with the 30 cars ready for you. Okay, okay, 15 cars. I like riding 2 to a car. Now, because this is not a game mechanic, sadly, because the Load Runners would do it if it were real life, we have to have some compromise. How about, to limit warehousing, which is NOT possible with the current gang member/car ratio a lot of you have, fees on cars. In fact, use your imagination and pretend you're not paying it to the server. You're paying that money to people like Cynthia Hatton and Jon Porter, two Load Runners who just don't possess the civility I do, know how to use a rifle, really like your cars, and have 22 like minded, armed, Load Runners at their back. |
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Jety Posted Aug 28, 2009, 8:31 pm |
I think Longo's idea is an excellent one and has been brought up at other times in other places.
The bottom line is this. Simply making life harder for players for the sake of balance is a bad idea. It hurts gameplay. It hurts player good will. Taking something away from a player that they feel they have 'earned' is the kiss of death. Giving players something awesome to spend their money on is a good idea. It enhances gameplay and fosters a happy subscriber base. I think that the millions of dollars camps are sucking out of the economy is a perfect object lesson in how effective and rewarding a properly thought out money sink can be. |
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*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Aug 28, 2009, 8:50 pm |
I feel the need to make a point here.....
IF we are talking about "real-life" here then....... Truck stops are NOTHING but LARGE parking lots with fuel and mech shops GALORE! I AM talking from experience too!..... Those that have traveled the U.S. in ANY capacity either on vacation or for a living, KNOW that truck stops are welcome breaks on a VERY long road to your destination. To Longo: That comment was uncalled for... It does not matter the length of time a player has in the game. Opinions, no matter how long they may have played, are the backbone of how Darkwind was built. Try to keep that in mind. To Groovelle: The first mistake most new players make is relating this to reality, case in point: the weapons debate that has been ongoing since I joined. This "game" should not be based on reality. It is a fictional place with fictional characters played by people that LIKE the role playing element. NO suggestion is a "stupid" one! (unless you count mine and Spanky's! hehehe) Keep up the ideas and try not to take offense to others posts..... My grandpa told me once, "Keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool.......OR open it and remove all doubt!" This does not mean "be quiet in your opinions" it just means think before you put BOTH feet in your mouth! |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 11:08 pm |
to be fair JD those truck stops are not limited in size by what is defensible.
and longo... you know that was not a fair comment... or are we goiiing to get into a whose been here longest war in which case Sam gets to decide and he made his ideas plain in the first post
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*Longo* Posted Aug 28, 2009, 11:18 pm |
Man, I can't believe I am saying this all in one sentence... JD and goat are correct. My apologies to Groove. Let me rephrase it. "I think that you have seen too little of Evan at this time to fully see the impact of this major decision by the development staff."
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Groovelle Posted Aug 28, 2009, 11:19 pm |
JD, that's exactly what Badlands is. Its "NOTHING but LARGE parking lots with fuel and mech shops GALORE! I AM talking from experience too!..... Those that have traveled the U.S. in ANY capacity either on vacation or for a living, KNOW that truck stops are welcome breaks on a VERY long road to your destination." Except because of all the death and dismemberment going on they put walls around this particular truckstop. A mechanic shop to fix up the rides that come through, a marketplace to get top dollar on your gear, and of course, a bar. The bare minimum.
More to the point, the biggest thing this game has going for it is the atmosphere. Dark-Wind, to me, isn't about amassing wealth until you can buy that Trophy of Travelling +1. It's about a veteren driver winning a race, putting gas in the tanks and food on the tables of his brothers and sisters, only to die from a snapped neck while crossing the finish line. It's about a driver and a gunner in a car with breached sides and no guns both making the decision to turn back and save stranded squadmates from imminent death Think of it this way. You probably aren't here for the graphics. The gameplay is solid and unique. It definitely can be held up as Dark-Winds ace in the hole except for one last bulletpoint: The atmospere, the background, the soul of the game. Once you lose sight of that, or change the intensity level, you're left with a turn based game with solid gameplay and okay graphics. In 2009. There's thousands of games like that lying around and noone's playing em. {E} No sweat Longo. I'll have to disagree with you of course, but it doesn't need to get ugly. |
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Groove Champion Posted Aug 29, 2009, 12:03 am |
With the fees being upped, Sam is forcing us to adapt to a difficult situation in a difficult world...
It's supposed to be a difficult world anyway... what we have now is comfort. Let's shake up that comfort! We're set in our habits, that doesn't mean we've got everything right: I think Sam's proposed change will be a healthy one! |
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pweelg Posted Aug 29, 2009, 12:27 am |
So to clarify then just cos someone can play the game less he ought to have a smaller fleet of cars ? | ||||||||
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darthspanky Posted Aug 29, 2009, 12:43 am |
yeah pweelg dont you know everyone wants to play just like that how dare you build up a fleet of cars that you earned, the new guys dont like that its not fair to them and they deserve just as much as you do.
do ya really think the rich players cant get around this nerf lol yes they can |
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Dr Mathias Posted Aug 29, 2009, 1:11 am |
I for one don't agree with that. I don't think there should be a hard limit to the number of cars a gang can store. I would accept the proposal as it stands, but I honestly feel that it is flawed. Huge weekly garage fees are not the way to solve the problem at the heart of the matter- massive bank accounts. I think the crux of the matter is that we need to 1. deplete the huge bank accounts 2. reduce cash flow 3. stabilize cash flow so that we can repair cars and buy stuff, but grow bank accounts at 1/10 the rate they do now. Fees: I'd suggest that maintanence fees are needed, and that they should be based on the complexity of the chassis and weapons. Use the mech points needed to create them as a guide for what is 'complex' and what isn't. Perhaps tie car parts into maintanance and garage fees. Instead of looting parts, selling them for money, then using that money to pay fees, why not loot car parts and use them for maintanance? Storage: I think players should have to 'buy' permanent garage space at fixed rates- which may (and should) be different in each town. 10 cars, free. Your next ten costs you, maybe 100k? Next 10 costs 500k. Then 1mil, 2 mil, etc. doubling every time you add 10 slots. You will decide how many cars you want to store, and then acquire the money to do it. Borrow it, win it, whatever- but if you want to hoard thats a choice you make and you won't have to work your ass off each week to pay rent. Or hell give us a choice- allow us to rent slots at really high rates (maybe those proposed) or buy garages that are massively expensive but permanent. Of course nothing at all will be solved unless sam reduces the flow of money to players and at the same time reducing reliance on money. |
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pweelg Posted Aug 29, 2009, 1:18 am |
As always Doc you talk a lot of sense, quiet often making my point in a much more eloquent fashion,
Something like yours or Vikks suggestion would seem more casual player friendly. Badgers idea has merit on a whole new roleplay aspect tho might involve more coding. |
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Dr Mathias Posted Aug 29, 2009, 1:26 am |
I guess I would classify myself as a hybrid. I play a LOT for a few months, then when my semester gets busy I play once a week or even less. I'd like to see a proposal that doesn't hurt hardcore vets, casual vets, and new players who haven't evolved into addicts yet
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Marrkos Posted Aug 29, 2009, 1:29 am |
From my point of view*, that's what we are doing now, the DW$ just makes it less of a chore to manage a warehouse of various components. Jake: Oh, sorry, I can't fix your car because you only have 3 EP and I need 4. Additionally, wouldn't this pretty much require the ability to breakdown items in towns, since many players won't be able to either a) salvage the proper components in the field (no skilled mechs), or b) field the vehicles necessary to transport the components to town post-event (vans, pickups, etc.)? * - I view my bank balance as something like Hero Points. Not actual money, per se, but rather pull/favor with the locals. Jake will swap (sell) me a car from his lot because he knows I'll bring (sell) him vehicles I capture in the wild. |
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*Longo* Posted Aug 29, 2009, 1:33 am |
If we are forced to buy garage space in town, make it a one time thing. Not weekly. I want to be able to go on vacation, or be busy at work a week and come back to my gang as is, not down 1/2 million dollars because I couldnt grind my arse off breaking even for the week.
As for badger's idea, 57% of my assest per months? Are you kidding me? And who pays taxes in Post Apoc time? Not me, try and come collect it. |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 29, 2009, 1:43 am |
ok.. where do you live? B) | ||||||||
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Groove Champion Posted Aug 29, 2009, 2:25 am |
Although I understand your point, making the fees a one-time thing would fix the problem for, say, one month. What's wrong with selling all your common components to avoid losing a massive fortune when you go on vacation? Dump your Apaches and use your allotted space for your Buzzers and Fiftysevens, dump your HMGs to makes space for HCRs and HGGs, dump your 4Ls to keep your 5Lv8's. It makes sense because if you insists on keeping ultra-rares only, at least you'd be forced to use them (read risk them) at least a little bit to re-build your garage once you're back in 'hardcore play' mode. Otherwise the game remains a constant grind to have Evan's most reknowned (and dusty) showroom. ... and once again, many have called these new fees "astronomical": I call them "reasonable when compared to the laughable fees we currently have". |
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*manglemybadger* Posted Aug 29, 2009, 2:33 am |
That's the fun part, the NPCs trying to collect it. And you deciding to kill them and burn reputation to keep it, or yielding and finding a balance between keeping rep or money. The game has several "player currencies". 1. You have your straight-up cash 2. You have your gangers, cars and material assets 3. You have your reputation The garage fee increase pits #1 against #2 - you lose #1 to keep #2. My proposal is keep that as it is without change, but make #1 also work against #3. The state wants your taxes, you have to fight them, and lose rep, to keep it. And the 57% is just a made up figure, and it would not apply to your entire net worth. Just the amount over X... Anyway, I just thought it would make the whole new "money sink" seem more interactive, elective and exciting without altering things like the community's scouting habits and world exploration. Since the proposed rate hike doesn't apply to EVERY town, it is hard to understand its purpose. Making Elm and Somer a an exception for the fee will cause a portion of the gameplay to relocate to those 2 towns. How much will relocate? Who knows, but even a little isn't good. We are supposed to be civilizing this world, not sitting motionless in the shade of a tax shelter. |
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*Longo* Posted Aug 29, 2009, 2:35 am |
I use alot of my cars...as much as I scout I only have like 3 renowned and 1 famed... and to be honest, I want to play the game the way I like it, not the way you do or want me to, as you suggest here. And to be quite honest, Ive already made this point. |
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*viKKing* Posted Aug 29, 2009, 6:30 am |
Eventually, a yearly (Darkwind time) tax? That's every 4 months in real time. |
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Swift Posted Aug 29, 2009, 8:50 am |
So on one hand, you don't want people with smaller money income to have smaller number of cars, and on the other hand your solution is to make people with smaller money income to have smaller number of cars? The only difference I see is that when its garage fees, you have to have money on hand and plan ahead for your absences etc., and when it's storage place, you just need to pay once; no planning, no watching the fees, less gameplay -- just a plain straightforward money sink. So you don't really want a bigger number of cars - you want the same number of cars with less risk and less thinking involved. Which is not bad thing per se, I might add - not everybody appreciates stress of hard and involving gameplay. But just to make the underlying motives clear, hopefully, to make the discussion better. And on more general idea of "people who play less shouldn't have smaller fleet of cars". Let's face it: They already have smaller fleet of cars. People who play more have more money, more instances of seeing rare chassis and rare paint skins, more everything. Whatever we do to keep money down, people who play less will have less -- whether it's less perks bought for money (Solf's and Longo's proposition), less garage space (Dr. Mathias' proposition) or lesser ability to go anywhere and park everything you want\get (current proposal of raising garage fees). I for one don't mind idea of making more moneysinks for rich and not-so-rich players (I wonder, for example, why signing up for official leagues does not make me pay some non-symbolic sum). But thinking them through and implementing them would take time. And let's be honest here: they would need to matter, or people wouldn't want to spend their cash on them. Once they will start to matter, you would want them. And you would ask Sam for them to have lesser price (because is it fair that only richest and most active players can allow themselves those perks?). So saying "implement perks and forget those fees" does not resolve underlying problem, which is: some people have less money, some people have more money. Some people don't want for money to matter and inconvenience them, some do. And whatever you say, money need to matter, it needs to be scarcer. |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 29, 2009, 12:31 pm |
actually dude the point you made was that we had heard to much about how individuals wanted to play the game and not enough about WE. |
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*Longo* Posted Aug 29, 2009, 4:35 pm |
Actually, in my ramblings, I said both I believe
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Groove Champion Posted Aug 29, 2009, 5:54 pm |
I could just say I want to play the game the way I want to, not the way you want me to... It sounds like you're trying to veto the change... | ||||||||
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Groove Champion Posted Aug 29, 2009, 6:08 pm |
I still think a change is necessary to bring player markets and bartering out of their current obsolete state. If you don't like the changes the way Sam presented them that's fine, but I don't think it's right to keep things as they are. The game is too easy in terms of storage and finances. | ||||||||
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Dr Mathias Posted Aug 29, 2009, 6:17 pm |
Hmm... I am trying to come up with a way to enable vets to keep the cars they've earned if they want to (paying several mil to buy garage) while allowing newer players and future players an opportunity to grow into large garages if they want them. You're right, less play means less stuff in general. Thats tough and although I think about that a lot- I have no solution. I think all facets of life separate between casual and hardcore. Hardcore collectors, players, athletes will generally be better or 'have more'. Barring a reset, god forbid, DW will favor a vet over a new player. That said, anyone who plays the game 'hardcore' knows they can get all the same stuff I have- in two or three months. It took me several months to get an apache, Ive seen new players get one in a week. The dynamic of acquisition and accumulation has changed dramatically, and I suspect not in the direction the sam intended. In some ways thats okay, mmo are very organic and thats the appeal of them to me anyway. Back to garages: A player is really screwed by the proposed change if they play a little, but have played for a long time- thats the key difference. They have garages and stuff to store, and I suspect the money to buy garages in most cases- but not the monthly income to support what they've accumulated. The proposed changed is a massive modification to gang expenditure that is targetting top tier players, whether they've been here a long time or not. It is the longtime players that play sporadically who are going to get reamed. I may be wrong, but I thought an intial outlay of money to 'keep their cars' might be more fair accross the board. Plus sam needs to reduce the flow of $$$, heh heh, or we are right back to square one! I guess what I would suggest- in a way that doesn't target new and casual players- have the npc mech buy cars based on weekly quantity. The more cars you bring in, the bigger discount he will expect. Its a principle that one sees all the time when dealing in bulk, right? A player selling 100 cars a week will be hit a lot harder than a player selling 10... thus helping to reduce the bloated income we see in top tier gangs. Thats just a start, but again the flow of money needs to be addressed at the same time as depleting accounts. |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 29, 2009, 6:32 pm |
that would be my preferred option.. try some new things for a few months than reset the lot with the rules fixed
tis true
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Dr Mathias Posted Aug 29, 2009, 6:39 pm |
*ducks to avoid all the things that people are going to throw at goatstarer* |
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pweelg Posted Aug 29, 2009, 7:50 pm |
That obviously works the other way round as well . Emotive subject that seems split down the middlle . Think Sam is just going to have to make his call on this one and people react in the way that suits them best |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 29, 2009, 8:06 pm |
Lets just have a custard Pie Fight !!!!!!
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Swift Posted Aug 29, 2009, 8:36 pm |
No need to think off new proposals then, that is exactly what will be available after the upcoming change of fees. Average fee for a car in GW is 2k/week. 100k buys you 50 weeks. A lot can happen in a RL year. Rules change again, car gets destroyed, player loses interest in DW (knock the wood). And if the price of keeping cars gets too high, there's always cheap parking space in SS.
They have a lot of time to decide then what to do with these cars they can't afford while their millions slowly run out. It might sound heartless, but the goal of high garage fees is elimination of money, be it new-gained or old-stored...
This does sound like a way to discourage heavy grinding for money, although I haven't heard about any MMO implementing such scheme. One quirk (possible defect) seems to be that if play needs to come up with big sum and he has time and resources for heavy scouting, under such penalty, he can't. |
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Dr Mathias Posted Aug 29, 2009, 9:06 pm |
Good opposing points Swift. Being heartless isn't always a bad thing for the collective good
There's a lot to consider in this thread, that's for sure. I suspect the best bet would be a blend of ideas- Latte's 'home town' proposal for example would allow players a way to alleviate fees in places where they want to base their main squad. Allowing a choice is a good thing. I still think I'd look at the formula/breakdown for garage fees though. Shantyville should be at base level (Somerset?) or be the cheapest place to store. I would suggest that simply for gameplay purposes. It would give people an alternative option for storing things, and shipping things in and out in a pvp zone would certainly equalize the advantage of being cheap. Elms seems like it should be cheaper than SS as well... its safer, spacious, plus you need to use a bridge just to get to it. Not sure about everything else. I keep my garages outside SS and Elms pretty small, so this change isn't hitting me very hard. I personally find it sad that I can pay my garage/training/lockup fees with one or two scouts a week. |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 29, 2009, 11:23 pm |
there is something i this that i quite like... if each town will pay top dollar for the first cars you bring in there but then pay less and less as you flood em with goods then you have a very big incentive to scout all the towns to get the top dollar allocation from each. |
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*Longo* Posted Aug 30, 2009, 2:19 am |
There may be a solution here. Doc, goat, and I all agreeing on something. Unheard of. Better lock this thread now! |
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Dr Mathias Posted Aug 30, 2009, 4:51 am |
Nothing... a heavy scouter will still be selling more chassis and making more money, just not as much. A heavy scouter will still be making money, just not an obscene amount.
It certainly isn't a tax or penalty... I would characterize it as a diminishing return on selling a high volume of cars. I'm not a business major but it is a market principle.
The shop already does this already- but we all know that the prices in the shop are not related to any real demand or player value, thats why you see players buy stuff and mark it up 1000%. I've said a several times that Jake should pay more for Symphs and Chompers because they get shot to hell in arena events- seems like the SS league would have a demand for them. Pickups and Spirits? Not so much. If you showed up for the seventh time in three days selling 4-5 cars to Jake, I think he'd lowball you and try to get himself a discount. You can take your chassis elsewhere if you want...
Not in my opinion. I think it will help it in several ways, including reducing the flow of money into the economy- without hurting newbs and casuals- and I think it will stimulate the player market. If scrap was more valuable/necessary (ie use scrap and stone to maintain camp rather than $$$) we'd have some real interesting decisions to make. Do I sell or scrap? Sell the first few, and scrap the rest? Do I put it in the PC market? |
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Dr Mathias Posted Aug 30, 2009, 5:30 am |
Ideas I support and have mentioned myself in the past. I want all the commodities to be valuable and necessary. Even the lowly stone and scrap metal should make us rub our hands together. I have also requested that we should be able to use cans in our lockup to fill car fuel tanks, and food in our lockups to feed our guys. It makes sense.
Ideally yes it would be applied to all incoming cars, not per player, but I don't think that would work for the game at all. We could call my proposal the ' "You again? More cars?" effect'. |
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Solf Posted Aug 30, 2009, 9:12 am |
I'd call it a "tax on playing too much". As opposed for "tax on playing too little" which, IMO, the per-week-payments option is going to result in. Personally I'm mucho in favor of taxing those who play more instead of those who play less -- since it's those who play more are accumulating the most excess cash. |
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4saken Posted Aug 30, 2009, 5:01 pm |
To what, exactly? How much is enough to affect people that have millions of dollars when you only use 2 bulk of fuel per vehicle in a scout? And how would that not affect the little guy? And what effect do you think raising fuel prices by some large factor will have on cargo missions and travels? Wouldn't the amount offered on them have to go up as well to make them still viable? Somehow I don't see that as something that will hurt the millionaires. Quite the opposite effect, in fact. And meanwhile, the little guy will struggle to make up for the cost of the gas it takes him to scout. And diminishing return is hardly a tax. Find someone who'll offer to pay you X amount for something, pretty much anything, then say "ok, I'll sell you 10 of them for that price then" and they'll be like "whoa, wait a minute, that's not the deal". There are some exceptions for such things sold incrementally, such as gas being by the gallon or some foods being by the pound or whatever, but all this means is that it takes different amounts before the discount applies and the bulk discounts come into play, especially with modern economies that tend towards massive quantities of bulk to get the best prices. Rather than gas, there could also be something like a gate toll per vehicle. This makes sense from a game perspective (as I am sure gate tolls would actually happen in a post-poc world) but I am not sure if it would have the desired effect. It would affect everyone more or less equally though, much like the "gas tax". People with lots of cars would pay more but they get more loot as well, so in the end the curve is linear, which IMO doesn't solve a thing, except that a tax of this nature (rather than a flat tax) does not penalize casual players more than people who scout several times daily. IMO you want a money sink have a look at my new hire post in the suggestion forum. (Originally I had that as part of this reply but moved it so it wouldn't get buried 8 pages deep in this thread.) |
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*Longo* Posted Aug 30, 2009, 7:06 pm |
WOW!
I had been looking at garage fees all of this time... I just looked at lockup fees....51k a week in BL .... in addition to the garage fees |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 30, 2009, 7:13 pm |
ok we have heard a lot about how this negatively effects the casual player.... here is another perspective.
if you dont scout much your biggest cost at the moment is probably buying shiny things.... if you want a buzzer you have to buy it because irregular scouting makes it unlikely that you will loot many if any. so yeah your garage and lockup fees are going up.. but in the process market prices of all goods will tumble as those of us who scout lots choose to list rares rather than stockpile them. I dont know how those two will balance out but can we at least have a go at finding out? |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Aug 30, 2009, 7:22 pm |
Yep I'm lovin it, picked up a 2nd osprey this week. Was a bit pricey still though... I can't really comment if this is good for the game or not though. |
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*Longo* Posted Aug 30, 2009, 7:22 pm |
Ill just keep moving everything to SS as I have been...my point is that I didnt forsee this expense also. I was thinking it was listed under the garage expenses when in fact it wasnt.
Undoubtedly, as was already suggested after I said I was moving to SS, SS will be nerfed and I , along with some others, will be boned again. Darkwind is very quickly becoming a job for me, and when this happens, its time to leave. |
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Serephe Posted Aug 30, 2009, 8:45 pm |
Game changes. Adapt or die. I don't want to see you go, so if you can't pay for your stuff in Badland then I hope you move it all to Somerset or sell it.
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Dr Mathias Posted Aug 30, 2009, 8:58 pm |
Damn, BOY! You must have some really nice overstock! To be fair that is a pretty massive jump in cost. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 30, 2009, 9:01 pm |
Someset from air
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Dr Mathias Posted Aug 30, 2009, 9:08 pm |
Great pic... yep that's what it would look like! You have a genuine knack for finding evocative images. |
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*sam* Posted Aug 30, 2009, 9:18 pm |
I think the idea of a gates toll is a great one, an elegant way to deal with casual players fairly.
I'll be posting up some revised garage/lockup fees in the next day or so. This will include a substantial reduction in the fees at the truckstops and smaller towns. I'll also have a look at gates fees, probably on a per-vehicle basis rather than related to their value. |
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*Longo* Posted Aug 30, 2009, 9:22 pm |
Sam - the thread i sso deep and has migrated to a few other threads...what was the gates few concept again? And Doc - Ive sold an incredible amount of equipment this week and last. Ive sold over 75 cars alone. Id also say well over 150 weapons, many rares...alot right back to the NPC vendor too |
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*sam* Posted Aug 30, 2009, 9:25 pm |
The gates concept is that the town militia charges a fee for each vehicle entering town - to cover their efforts in protecting the town. As a money sink this is better than a weekly garage fee since it won't be an undue burden on casual players. | ||||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 30, 2009, 9:31 pm |
sam that is a great idea... but it doesnt deal with hoarding....
the sudden influx of stuff onto the markets this week has shown pretty well that there are toonnes of things out there that just dont come under the heading of a car collection... peole have piles of engines and things lying around and they dont sell them because it artificially inflates the market not to. thats just unrealistic... nobodys lockup fees should be 51k... because its just not realistic fpr them to hold all that stuiff in a truckstop. |
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Serephe Posted Aug 30, 2009, 9:32 pm |
40 3.2 v8s for sale.
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Dr Mathias Posted Aug 30, 2009, 9:35 pm |
I don't have a problem with a gate tax in general. I think a modest increase in garage and lockup fees is in order as well. Can I presume Firelight won't have a gate tax, as there is no gate militia? We can't escape into town there. Shanty would also have a practically non-existent gate tax IMO. I'd also seriously consider a diminishing return on vehicle sales to npc shop, a fuel cost increase, and Latte's 'set home town' idea where you get some advantages because the locals know you and rely on your presence. |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 30, 2009, 9:37 pm |
exactly.. my lockup fees in bl are 17k and thats because i have 30 v8s in my garage..... 18 ATG... a massive pile of heavy gatlings..
God knows what longo must have.... or why??? and anyway most people with that sort of kit have camps.. if you really want to keep it all put it in a lorry and park it at camp.. or sell it.. ket the market find a realistic value and then get on with playing. people only hoard because they CAN not because they need to... if people were not hoarding then there would be plenty to go round when people needed things.. hoarding in RL is a natural fear / self preservation action.. hoarding in DW is unrealistic gameplay because you would not have the space to do it.. so you would liquidate material as quickly as possible. |
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Dr Mathias Posted Aug 30, 2009, 9:41 pm |
Are you f-ing kidding me? 30 v-8?! I hope you are joking man- I felt bad holding onto 10 v-8, across all the towns! Man this game is wacked out more than I thought! |
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Serephe Posted Aug 30, 2009, 9:42 pm |
Agreed. I can't help but laugh at the people who are complaining that they have to sell their excess vehicles, when they have far more than they could ever hope to use... or even lose.
I reduced my own stocks of vehicles long before this even came up, simply because they made the game boring -- they destroyed the feel of the world for me. As far as I'm concerned, any advance in the game is a good one. |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 30, 2009, 9:47 pm |
no i am not kidding you.. I cant sell them.. if i list them on the market then dipsticks like coco and glow buy them and relist them at 150k.. if i put it in the forums nobody responds... I dont have the scouts to move them north (and even when i do people dont buy them in SS at 30k!) |
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Dr Mathias Posted Aug 30, 2009, 9:57 pm |
Cripes! I hear what you're saying. I stopped selling HGG because certain dipsticks bought 'em and upped the price. Can't really blame them for that though, that's economic pvp. Seems to me that there is simply too many rares floating around then if they exist in hoards that big. What's to blame- Camps making v8? Don't think so... Too many v8 in the mech shop? Maybe. I bought 5 at once about a year ago. I felt dirty.
Too many v8 in npc vehicles? That's part of it I bet- back in the day I think v8 showed up in only two wilderness rares. These revelations are a crying shame. Sam should have cut off the gangrene a long time ago. No wonder there's so much opposition. Jeebus! What would it be like if item degradation hadn't been implemented?!!!!!! |
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Serephe Posted Aug 30, 2009, 9:57 pm |
Just do what I do, Goat. List them for 75k and let the damned fools buy them -- look how it turned out for them, mm?
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 30, 2009, 9:58 pm |
just had a conversation with nine and he has similar (slightly higher ) numbers.........
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Dr Mathias Posted Aug 30, 2009, 9:59 pm |
! |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 30, 2009, 10:02 pm |
oh and another thing.. i took about 20k off my lockup fees the other day by selling all the car parts i had amassed.. over 1000 of them | ||||||||
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darthspanky Posted Aug 30, 2009, 10:02 pm |
well thats what happens when ya collect a billion hero points lol ya camp at gates and buy it all up lol when we could make rares at camps weapons were alot cheaper cause there was competition to sell it but camps get nerfed so they cant make it but yet hp are everywhere now cause of all the high fame pirates and why buy a 6 mil camp when ya can kill a few pirates and get rares from hp.
desides do you guys really think if someones determined enouph they can make money whayever nerf ya put in place and now were being forced to play a playstle some may not want to use lol taxes wgho collects it pirates lol cause its not traders there all crushed everywhere but ss and elm. |
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Dr Mathias Posted Aug 30, 2009, 10:03 pm |
Stop, stop, stop.
Quit revealing this stuff or I'm going to have a heart attack! My god have we got a task on our hands... |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 30, 2009, 10:06 pm |
well i thought that was what i had been saying for bloody ages with everyone treating me like some kind of nutjob.
some people LIKE it like that Doc. |
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Dr Mathias Posted Aug 30, 2009, 10:16 pm |
You have to admit you have a penchant for the theatrical goat, so when you accuse people of gross capitalism its hard to know how gross it really is
For chrissake, we have no way of knowing how many rares, or how much #### people are hoarding since we can't see lockups. We might get a vague 'there's too many rares' from sam. I'm seriously disappointed, this ain't a post apocalypse simulation- its a goddam blood diamond vault. |
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Speed_Melon Posted Aug 30, 2009, 10:19 pm |
wow - and I thought my 9 morays were excessive. | ||||||||
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*Longo* Posted Aug 30, 2009, 10:24 pm |
Last I looked, there is no rule or regulation to hoard whatever you want. Some things I like to hoard. Like CCs. I have an extra 3 or 4 sitting around, a friend asks for one here and there, I lose one...then Im back at 0 again.
Ive had trouble selling my rares also...there are too many of SOME rares. You can loot a 3.2V8 in SS ALL THE TIME. Pulverisers are common there. Hgats are a dime a dozen. Razorbacks are all over SS. Even Blackstones are there. Mind you, I like alot of these NPC cars, but dont let them appear as much and the rares disappear. Sam - looking down the road - any chance we can tell the militia at the Gates to go pound salt and have a 3rd encounter with them, and if we win, we dont pay a Gates fee?
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darthspanky Posted Aug 30, 2009, 10:30 pm |
how can a militia be effective in a high pirate activity area like bl or fl or gw or sars or texan or shanty if the players cant even beat pirates down? | ||||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 30, 2009, 10:42 pm |
ME?? Theatrical??? I am shocked! SHOCKED! I dont believe i have EVER been so insulted my boy... I feel quite overcome.... Mrs hathaway.. fetch my restorative... Divers Alarums - enter Mrs Hathaway stage left bearing a beaker. Goat drinks deeply now where were we... I was telling you about my exploits amongst the Catchawagamama tribe. well i dont mind telling you..................... |
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Solf Posted Aug 30, 2009, 11:09 pm |
On the subject of hoarding -- I think the problem here is that people don't have a use for money, so they don't have any pressure to sell stuff.
Instead of slapping people with lockup fees to try to force them to sell stuff, how about trying to entice people instead? If there was a real use for lots of money (money sinks), people would be tempted to sell their assets. A few ideas that I think might work as a viable money sinks: - Outrageously priced 'super training programme' that would make gangers to train faster in towns. - Hiring a guide to make you travel between towns faster (in real-time terms). - Paying NPC hauling corp piles of money so that they would deliver your stuff where you want it to be (so that you don't have to fight through encounters & stuff). |
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*jimmylogan* Posted Aug 30, 2009, 11:13 pm |
Solf - the main problem I see with those ideas is that you'd still hear people complain about perks the rich vets have that the casual player can't get.
It's a thin line between "fair" and "earned..." |
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darthspanky Posted Aug 30, 2009, 11:15 pm |
nice ideas solf some have been mentioned before i bet some players would even pay to get a few extra skill points on a maxed out guy sometimes ya max out just before a next specialism offer option to pay for the few skill points ya would need to get the skill up? | ||||||||
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 30, 2009, 11:18 pm |
I cant disagree more, with being able to by stats or anything that alters the actual gameplay itself, the money should never determine a game mechanic | ||||||||
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Serephe Posted Aug 30, 2009, 11:23 pm |
Spanky, I beat the crap out of the Gateway pirates -- and just had an encounter vs traders where they had TWO lorries, and a Wild Hunter. You complain that it can't be done. I go out and do it. That's the difference between us, buddy. |
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darthspanky Posted Aug 30, 2009, 11:43 pm |
but i dont want to kill pirates i want to kill traders? what gang?
wow good job i didnt think that was possible did you smack them down or was it tweeked by sam? |
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*sam* Posted Aug 30, 2009, 11:48 pm |
You're out of date there darth. Any idea what the top camps are currently producing? |
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Solf Posted Aug 30, 2009, 11:51 pm |
I think you need to elaborate on this more
Current game does make use of money and thus money determine game mechanic to a certain extent. Similarly increase in lockup fees is going to increase the impact of money. So could you please elaborate on what are you disagreeing with? I'm not a fan of giving more 'power' to wealthy (active) players, but if you want to deflate money, you need to have money sinks that are actually tempting. I tried to suggest things that are not game-breaking -- more of a convenience features. But as I'm not really a vet, I'd love to hear what vets would pay for that wouldn't be game-breaking. To Jimmy: whatever you do or don't -- some people will complain I think that since the road to riches is open for everyone, noone can really complain that they don't have access to whatever it is that is bought with the money -- it's merely a question of whether they want X bad enough to earn enough money for it.
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Serephe Posted Aug 30, 2009, 11:52 pm |
All Sizes Shipping.
I'm just saying, its possible, you just need to work to get what you want rather than asking to have it handed to you.
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darthspanky Posted Aug 30, 2009, 11:55 pm |
sam my point was that back when we had camps ability to make rares went away but hp were still strongly available kinda making camps less cometitive vs collecting hp for rares i know latte can make ambulances but thats not possible except for larger camps, some camps make stuff not in hp but hp are too valuable compared to owning a camp? the costa are alot d9iffrent compared to how much is needed to build camp to that level and hp items are so cheap in some areas and all ya need to do is kill pirates. just seems imbalanced to me. | ||||||||
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darthspanky Posted Aug 30, 2009, 11:58 pm |
sere i earned almost everything ive earned but why are all those pirates there for ya to hunt? because players asked for them cause they wanted to hunt tuffer pirates why not the same for pirate players asking for tuffer traders ive never seen the gw traders that strong since ive been playing. | ||||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 12:03 am |
why? whats wrong with just fixing the game economy to make money harder to come by and easier to lose? than seems more in keeing with the whole game ethos. Far as i can see sam has propsed one... make owning lots of stuff expensive.. it makes sense. |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 12:08 am |
darth.... there are no huntable pirates in GW now.... there are more people scouting oreplaces than before. there is a balance... if the pirates get tough you get returns from hunting them... that makes the traders tougher and you get returns from hunting them. I have no idea what you are trying to role play here... Are you a pirate gang that WONT HUNT OTHER PIRATES ON PRINCIPLE?????? thats bizarre.. they are not 'on your side' they are other gangs and we all know that gangs fight one another. so get it into your head that perhaps just hunting traders is not a realistic position in the game world you are in.. those other gangs would be jumping you anyway (in fact it should be that if you go out hunting traders you are as likely.. if not more likely .. to be jumped yourself by another gang of pirates... after all the gear you have is more valuable than the traders) |
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Serephe Posted Aug 31, 2009, 12:09 am |
I agree with this completely. The way the game is now, is it really how Sam wanted it? A paradise where people can become multimillionaires, and death is rare? Because that's what the game feels to be to me. |
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darthspanky Posted Aug 31, 2009, 12:15 am |
problem is goat those wernt in effect till now if players whould have known this way back when they would be more consiuos of what they own the hard part is now some who didnt have these restriction before now havewv alot of work to do. i dont keep much in lockups but have a nice amount of cars yeah ill sell the ones i dont use much, put others in a free camp storage space, but those who dont scout as much or grind to make money are now kinda in a bad spot all of a sudden, even if its in place players will still make money if thats whats important to them.
goat i honestly do not understand why players are against letting pirate players hunt high fame traders when you have alot of high fame pirates to hunt i enjoy the trader chase and to have it be so tuff i loose would be more than i could hope for. |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 12:25 am |
darth they just arent... if you dont scout much you dont need as many combat cars .. end of...
if you back to back scouts out of Badlands town then you need lots of combat cars there..but if you do that you can afford them if you have cars you like but dont use (weird but i guess people are like that) then you have the clear option to move then a) to camp or b) to Somerset AND YOU LOSE NOTHING BY DOING THIS because you were not using them where they were. I have said that i think the first 4 cars in any town should be free then scale the price up as you add more.. that would encourage you to keep your crews in lots of places but it doesnt FORCE you to. All Sams original proposal would have taken was people looking for how to adapt their gamplay instead of a knee jerk reaction against it and none of this needed to be a problem. You could adapt to this without having to sell off your garages by careful fleet management (but when Lord Bam can suddenly chuck 30 cars called texan runner all with V8 engines and 5ls into the Badlands market then perhaps some people NEEDED a bit of a wakeup call) As far as i can see there are only a few people really railing against these changes .. they are just very vocal. |
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darthspanky Posted Aug 31, 2009, 12:39 am |
im not against it im just saying it affects other gangs more than you relize. players ask for rares in wild rares in hp this is the result from that. sometimes it looks like yer forcing players to play a certain playstle?
new players have more access to rares now that they did when i was new i never owned a 3lv8 before 6 months if that now if ya want a rare you can just buy it. |
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darthspanky Posted Aug 31, 2009, 12:46 am |
goat have youn ever had a bounty over 10k? how do ya get a bounty that high by attacking weaker traders then what happens ya get bh put on ya if all the traders are broke how can they afford bh? if we get bh put on us for attacking traders then we should have tuff traders to fight
maybe a 2 npc gang vs 1 player gang events imagine traders being escorted by bh you would need to demo both gangs to win thjat would be too sweet. |
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Dr Mathias Posted Aug 31, 2009, 12:48 am |
These ideas have been presented before, more or less. 1. Ransoms. Seriously wounded and unconscious gangers may be captured. Anyone above 50% activity escapes and forms a footsquad as normal. The ransom will be based off what the npc feel you can pay- your perceived worth. They capture your guys and give you a chance to buy them back, or they get killed or sold to the FLMH. They propose a 5-20% of your entire bank ransom. You have a choice. New players can decide if its too much, vets can decide if it is too much. I know I'd pay 20% of my bank- 1.75 million- if it was my leader being ransomed. That is an optional money sink. Could apply to famous cars too perhaps. Not a game breaker. 2. Tolls. Some pirates (not cannibals, bounty hunters, or manhunters) will let you slide by if the price is right. This might occur if your within a certain range of your starting CR. If you are fresh they'll truce or ask for a 'donation'. If beat up on a return they'd most likely pounce or ask for even more money. They'll look at the value of your vehicles, and your fame, and suggest a 'donation' - value of your cars plus 1-5% of your bank. Might come along with a rep hit- paying tribute makes you look bad. Entirely optional. Most players would not go for it- the toll would eat their profits. Some players, if they're transporting something special, would bite. I transported a heavy laser from BL and I would have popped for safe passage, even if the price was steep. This would not be a game breaker. The price needs to be in a region high enough that it will ruin you financially if you do it even slightly frequently, but low enough that you might bite occaisonally. 3. Certain towns (maybe just Sars) might have opportunites to repair chassis one-time (actually a second time) back to 100%. Again make it a random percentage of what the NPC think you can pay- they'll try to gouge you if they can. As long as it is a percentage of bank its more fair to newbs/casuals IMO. |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 1:16 am |
darth that just doesnt address the point that to be a trader hunter exclusively isn't a defensible position in the game and doc those are all good ideas that enhance the RP element of the game |
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darthspanky Posted Aug 31, 2009, 1:53 am |
oki mr genious then according to yer vast knowqledge and since yer the perfect player i should just listen to yer words of wisdom and play the game how you want me too, not how i want to play the game cause you think its not defensible to play pirate 6then we should just ban all pirates then, is that all you can do is tell people how to play while you the goody himself only attacks pirates so hypocritical | ||||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 1:56 am |
doc.. thios thing you said has been going over in my head...
to extent you are right.. it is a perfectly defensible economic activity... but it only works here because the rest of the economy is so screwed up. All these people who are screaming about the poverty that they will be thrown into... but who are not selling valuable items they have now simply cant have it both ways. If valuable items are not valuable to their owners (to the point where its worth hoarding an ever increasing pile you will never use rather than list the lot in the marketplace) then the 'economic pvp' is happening in a completely false economic setting.... the scarcity that makes these items out of poorer players reach is only created by the fact that money is essentially worthless to richer players so they dont even bother to sell things that they dont need or even really want... yet other people would pay a decent price for. Its like you hang onto the items because thay have some notional value whilst never actually allowing the market to find out what that value really is. I am few up with creating my own money sinks and still making too much cash. The game just doesnt work when you have to do that. it strikes me that Sams original ideas are right... actually all they would do is make people liquidate assets when they get them. so sam... as Nike (the goddess of VICTORY!) says JUST DO IT! nobody will even remember you did in 3 weeks time
and darth..... for the love of god listen to yourself.... and try reading other peoples posts instead of flying off the handle. I never said people shouldnt be playing pirate... I simply said that pirates WOULD NOT JUST ATTACK TRADERS. they would attack whatever target had the best loot at any given time.. sometimes that would be traders ... and other times it would be OTHER PIRATES. and the game has that built into it. this game does not have 2 sides... Pirates and Good Guys... it has lots of gangs.. some of which trade.... If the pirates are getting too strong and the traders are getting wesk DO WHAT A PIRATE WOULD DO and go after the pirates if you want to play as a pirate then play as one... but right now you are playing as a petulant kid and its really unedifying |
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darthspanky Posted Aug 31, 2009, 2:08 am |
the pirates i do hunt are in fl, or i hit bh if i want a piorate type fight, you say im flyimg off the handle why you ask its because i read the crap comming out of yer posts and its ok for you to hunt all the high fame pirates you want but im wrong for wanting the same thing in high fame traders so i can play pirate, that kinda talk pisses me off thats why.
sorry for this today i was actually not even wanting to get pissed but i can only take so much bs from goat. for the longest time i was the only pirate player, i fought hard for this playstlye to have some diffrences than being pirate killah but those were taken away not that i care cause trucing pirates isnt that important to me anymore, now alot more play pirate but do those players not care am i the only one who wants tuff traders to fight? if all pirates were weak i bet all of you pirate hunters would be asking for tuffer pirates |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 3:25 am |
darth.. you are not playing 'pirate' if you only hunt traders.. that is not what pirates would do.. Glow you remain as ever one of the most charming and delightful creatures in this game you clearly cant read.. as always you mindless little gob####e... as you are well aware the only reason i cant sell that stuff is because you are such an unmitigating twat in your economic griefing. also.. as you would be aware if you actually participated in anything.. most of the cars in my garage are there for FP races.. there are fewer of them this week because we have just had one. There will be fewer next week when we have had another.. then they will grow again.. its quite easy to understand. its a bit sad that you turned so upset and abusive since I pointed out that you dont actually play the game... the truth hurts doesnt it? (oh and before you start wittering about how many wilderness events you do.. I invite anyone who wants to to go have a look down your list of 'events' - or as we normal people like to call them 'negotiated truces on travels' - its pathetic) and the fact that you cant even understand docs post (if you think you are agreeing with him) just goes to show what a blithering imbecile you are... levels of dimness that are quite startling... anyway you are simply tiresome now oh friendless one... perhaps Sam could get back to me on the 'can i put people on ignore in the forums as well as the lobby' question. Its not like I would miss any actual peopls of wisdom. |
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Solf Posted Aug 31, 2009, 9:28 am |
At the risk of sounding somewhat like a broken record -- I'll try to re-summarize my points. (a) I have no strong opinion either way as to whether the game *needs* more money sinks. As a player that likes to experiment with certain things and after buying certain stuff I like from the players' market, I'm not exactly having a huge money pile. In fact my personal cash flow seemed 'about right' -- I have about 600k in the bank at the moment, but I've spent maybe 2 millions buying stuff from players. On the other hand I suppose veteran players don't need to buy much if anything from the players market (and it doesn't remove money from economy anyway) -- so I suppose more money sinks are needed 'on the top end'. (b) If we are adding the money sinks in the game, they should, in my opinion, target top end & more active players over casual & just starting players (because top end & more active players are actually responsible for the most of the cash inflation & because starting players don't neccessarily have it too easy right now). The currently discussed changes are primarily hurting casual players -- those who don't play much / don't make money much anyway -- hence I'm opposing them and proposing changes that would target primarily active players (gate tolls vs. weekly charges for just having combat vehicles in a particular town). |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 31, 2009, 9:46 am |
Hey Solf, late reply to a post many pages back now, i just meant i don't consider it a good idea to be able to use money, to purchase some things that would alter gameplay, such as extra fast travels...ability to pay to move equipment other than by your own means or another players, being able to hire that one of helicopter, being able to teleport rares to other locations etc. ideas that can be explained in a RL manner are different, being able to pay for an extreme driving course should be plausible, but again this will only really help the vets with massed accumulated wealth and broaden another gap.. im not against the idea of using money to alter some things, just not the basic 'laws' of physics type game play ( its very early i may be rambling now lol )
*Edit* just like to point out, some players ( myself in included ) may seem to be very active due to their high visibility on forum and lobby, this doesnt automatically mean they are actually a high volume scouter ( check my recent events to discover how much i have scouted in the past month ) |
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Solf Posted Aug 31, 2009, 10:22 am |
Heh, to be fair, you can easily explain being able to hire NPC gang to carry your goods for you. Or faster travel between towns -- 30 mph is not anywhere near as to how fast these car can travel (say you hire expert area guide & driver or something). Not that I pay much attention to what is possible 'in RL' -- hell, lasers shouldn't be possible in DW by that token. I think gameplay comes first. But jesting aside -- I do understand your point of not wanting to give rich players more of an advantage. I'm just not sure if there's another way to drain money from them other than providing some real perks (the fist method is more likely going to hurt poor players more than rich players). |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 31, 2009, 10:28 am |
On that note, i think we just agree Solf some items are unrealistic, but as a game play feature work. Im just concered tampering with scale mechanics could open up an entire can of 'different' worms | ||||||||
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Swift Posted Aug 31, 2009, 12:59 pm |
I agree tax on owning (garage fees) is more unfair to casual players than tax on activity (gate tolls), but I'd dare to suggest the main source of opposition to it is not because of that but because tax on owning is much more effective on controlling cash flow and being money sink than tax on activity can ever be. Tax on activity is pretty much straight up removal of % of money you make (you go on a scout, you make a buck, on a way back you pay some change to gate tollers -- that's my understanding of gate tolls, correct me if I'm wrong). Even if it's quite noticeable %, it does not remove inflation, because in no way it does regulates flow of money after it goes into player economy. It just slows it down by a given %. On the other hand, tax on owning is: a) also, in a roundabout way, tax on activity: to have an activity you need to have property. It's quite unfair on more casual end of activity spectrum (you need the same number of cars to scout once per week and once per day), but becomes quite noticeable cash hit on most hardcore activity (you need 5 times as much cars to scout 5 times per evening as opposed to scout once per evening). <which is why suggested 3-5 free spaces per town to accommodate most casual players is not that bad idea> b) weekly drain on cash resources. Whatever happens, you have property, you pay. c) dampener on player cash operations. Under it, if you make few millions and get few more cars, you have less incentive to go and spend those millions wholesale on best weapons for these cars. You need some operating cash to pay the tax in the future, in case something will happen to your DW time and you won't make any money then. d) in a roundabout way, one of possible perks for more rich/active players: a moneysink where they can spend their money by hoarding property they do not quite need. So: Tax on activity is a good thing - you don't want to give your players too much money. Convenience perks to buy for noticeable sums are also good - you need moneysinks for players to spend cash and fight the inflation. But tax on property, when used reasonably and carefully, is also a good thing. It accomplishes so much with so little and adds to economic part of your strategic thinking in many ways. |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 1:17 pm |
no you arent... most people have never heard of you... in 2 years of playing this game i have never been in an event with you. and if you want civitilised then stop coming into conversations and insulting me. Its not hard.
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Dr Mathias Posted Aug 31, 2009, 4:35 pm |
Could some of this be a result of confusion between game name and player screenname? I personally don't know the gang names of some LONG time players around here... I know them by their screename. When I see them in an event and are listed by gang name I wonder 'who the hell is that?' until I hit f9. Some people call me Doc in chat, and in event refer to me as 'Wasteland' so there is certainly potential for misunderstanding there. In Glow's case I certainly have heard of 'Cap Distributor'- and in my mind is also the player's screename! 
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*sam* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 4:44 pm |
Guys, keep the arguing out of the public forum and lobby, please. | ||||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 4:47 pm |
my deep apologies mr plug - as it was just a taster event of the new arena it slipped my mind... and you were not really very visible sitting on the other side of the arena with a sniper.
and sam... i will stop arguing with this cretin forthwith. frankly i have much better things to do. |
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Groove Champion Posted Aug 31, 2009, 4:59 pm |
Ok you two! Get a room!
I took a few minutes to read up on this thread since the last time I posted... I like the gate tax/fee idea! If people don't want jacked up garage fees, this seems like a compromise that is acceptable for all parties? Darth, this one's for you: how about we allow players who have a negative reputation -and only them- to "force" the gate tax by fighting it out with the gatekeepers? This could be played out like a gate encounter, with a loot phase and all. I think the added risk would be acceptable if it can save the player a pretty penny and give him a shot at getting some extra loot to sell in town! |
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Fealty Lost Posted Aug 31, 2009, 5:45 pm |
Okay, the scaled money suggestion made earlier in this thread was...STUPID...don't know who made it, don't care. By those standards, ALL THE MONEY I'D EVER MADE would have gone to store 40+ vehicles. That means no activity other than paying garage fees would have been my SOLE activity in the game. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
To store 40+ cars would have cost 3.6 MILLION. Stupid. Garage fees; almost as stupid. In a post-apocolyptic world, why would I pay someone for something I could do myself? "What's that Mr. Militia-man? You want what? For what? Really? Hey...look over there!" ::..one to the back of the head..:: Answer: As I've said all along, expandable cities; gang-owned lock-ups: collect the resources, build the building. Who cares how much money someone has? Who cares how many rares. They worked for them, they get to keep them. So what if a few people rule the economy...go out and EARN your stuff or shut up and pay the man. Now you want to punish them for their success? Stupid. And, in the same stroke, you screw the little guys and the casual players, telling them because they are not hard-core, on all day even at work whakkos, they are to be limited in vehicles, stuff and cash? Stupid. Oh ya, stupid. And even more stupid. It is what it is...institute a makes sense PvP system, construct a 'dynamic' world, or leave the richies alone. Why must I suffer because someone is mad they can't get a 'rare' whatever because it costs too much? My total 'rares:' two. 2 ...1 + 1. Do I care if the older, more active players have more rares? Nopers. And neither should you. |
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*sam* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 5:56 pm |
Just to let you know that I have been discussing changes to the proposed garage fees with the rules council, along with per-vehicle gate fees.
I have just updated the database with the latest figures we've settled on, so you can view the impact on your gang immediately. It's a big reduction in the small towns and truckstops, a smaller reduction in the larger towns and a small increase in Somerset. Where 1x is the previous garage fee in SS, we're looking at these new figures: Somerset 1.3x Elmsfield 1.2x Gateway Truckstop 4.5x Badlands Truckstop 5x Texan 1.8x Sarsfield 1.7x Morgan 4x Firelight 6x Shantyville 3x The gates fees will range from $0 (Firelight) to $1500 (Badlands), with the larger towns typically at $500. |
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Serephe Posted Aug 31, 2009, 6:07 pm |
But Sam! Then I would have to work to upkeep my items! In all honesty mate, I'm sure these fees are much more reasonable to those cretins with their 150 car garages. Myself, I've gone from 30k to 11k in fees. Hopefully this will please them. But you know I'd have been happy with the more expensive fees, too. We'll see what the larger players like Longo and folks say. |
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darthspanky Posted Aug 31, 2009, 6:16 pm |
sam is there a way i can see the totals of fees and garage fees i dont see any numbers but that might be cause im on vacation mode maybe? | ||||||||
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Twisted Feather Posted Aug 31, 2009, 6:19 pm |
Is that per vehicle returning, e.g. if I take two cars out in BL and return with both of them + 1 loot car do I then pay $4500 for the scout (for all 3 cars)? Or, is it 2 leaving and 3 returning ($7500 in total)? I'm guessing this its for both travels and scouts (which would make sense). On doing travels are fees payable on leaving and arrival, or just arriving? And since I haven't been following this thread religiously (ok, I've been reading a fair amount of it) is the purpose of this to reduce the amount of money coming into the system? And (final question honest!) have you thought through the effect on new guys? I still remember the early grind when every dollar was hard fought and bitterly spent - I wouldn't wish to make that worse for anyone coming through now, since we want them to stay 
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 31, 2009, 6:23 pm |
and on a scout who pays the scout squad owner, per vehicle, does the loot count etc etc | ||||||||
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*Longo* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 6:32 pm |
Sam - Sam - Going from 6X to 5X in BL isnt going to make a bit of a difference to me... its still too high.. However my garage fees look ok, but Im pretty confident that you coded it wrong in BL because its about 1.3 of what it initially was. |
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Serephe Posted Aug 31, 2009, 6:37 pm |
Longo
Pretty sure its right. |
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*jimmylogan* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 6:38 pm |
Feather and Gro - Sam will have to clarify if I'm wrong, but the discussion in the RC has been Gates Fee on ARRIVING in town. If you're traveling, returning from a scout, whatever - you pay the fee per vehicle on ARRIVAL, not on leaving.
If you take 2 cars out, zero fee. You loot a car so you're returning with 3 cars. You pay the fee for 3 cars. The owner of the car pays the fee, not the squad owner (though of course if you're "sponsoring" a noob scout in SS you can pay it for them - that's up to you). This is actually to help make it fair to newer players and casual players. If you don't scout much, your garage fee is the same as those that do. With gate fees, the more you scout/travel, the more you'll pay, so the casual player will pay less overall (but they're presumedly making less as well). The current proposed garage fee is LESS than what it was before the gates fee was put in. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 31, 2009, 6:39 pm |
Ok this sounds reasonable so far
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Serephe Posted Aug 31, 2009, 6:42 pm |
I think the fees are a little low...
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Marrkos Posted Aug 31, 2009, 6:46 pm |
How does this impact courier missions, particularly the smaller ones? From a gameplay perspective all of this makes sense. From a gameworld perspective it makes no sense that somebody would take a courier job paying $400 to ship something to Elmsfield if it's going to cost $500 to get in the gates. But, raising the payout defeats the whole take-money-out-of-the-game purpose, right? |
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*sam* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 6:54 pm |
The 6x fee that I previously quoted for BL was 6x the old BL garage fee, not 6x the SS fee. It was actually 18x the SS fee. |
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Twisted Feather Posted Aug 31, 2009, 6:59 pm |
Something doesn't add up here... (or it could be that you meant in places apart from somerset )
TBH I'm not actually that worried about how this all turns out. The economy needed sorting. These are some steps towards sorting it. Hopefully they'll work, if not they'll be tweaked no doubt. (This is fairly easy for me to say, not having huge garages outside SS. However I was building them up, so lets just say I've needed a slight attitude adjustment...) |
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darthspanky Posted Aug 31, 2009, 6:59 pm |
dont the fees increase over time or is that only on escort missions? | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 7:01 pm |
It's actually because you're a non-sub, darth. Only subscribers pay for garage fees. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 31, 2009, 7:05 pm |
As stated by longo, i think the BL coding is also wrong, a single buzzer was 4k plus it is now just over 1k | ||||||||
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*Ninesticks* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 7:10 pm |
Gro,
Nope, easy to miss the difference in what is being multiplied, read Sam's reply again. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 31, 2009, 7:14 pm |
God you sound like my old maths teacher, yes Mr. Nine i will go and re read, dont forget to tell longo of also :P | ||||||||
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Dr Mathias Posted Aug 31, 2009, 7:32 pm |
Increase garage and lockup: About time. New rates are reasonable IMO.
Gate Tax: It makes sense, more or less. Keeps out the riff-raff. Marrkos brings up a good point about a gate fee for small courier missions- how much money should a player make? What happens if you do a trader escort? Do we pay for the trader vehicles? I think the pay for a courier mission should cover fuel, 5-10 points of armor repair on an average chassis (merc or voyager for small bulks, maybe boxvan for bulk above a certain amount), plus a little extra to go to the gang. The better you are the more profit you'll get as you won't be making repairs. I base this off a one-car courier... so what if you take a trade car and escort? The gas used up for extra security will become more of an issue... Leading me to point two... let us refuel from lockups! We can buy gas from players market to get cut-rate fuel. I think an increase in fuel cost the further you get from Texan is also worth considering. Refueling at the mechanic shop should be premium, raise that for sure. In addition to a bank account we could have a per-town 'fuel bank' that we can siphon into and out of. I think the payout on missions will need to be looked at no matter what- an adjustment to the fuel paradigm would be how I address that potential problem. |
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*sam* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 7:46 pm |
No, just your own. Each gang owner pays for their own vehicles, and this includes the NPCs you're escorting. I'm definitely going to look into increasing the importance of fuel and the prices differences of it across the continent, along with some other related ideas I have been gathering. |
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Groove Champion Posted Aug 31, 2009, 8:05 pm |
This stupid stupidty is total stupidness. Why don't you all stupid a stupid stupid, stupids.
signed, Damon. |
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darthspanky Posted Aug 31, 2009, 9:52 pm |
sam said It's actually because you're a non-sub, darth. Only subscribers pay for garage fees
was that the way it always was i thought ya paid garage fees non subbed thanks for the info |
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*sam* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 9:58 pm |
It's always been that way. Non-subs have reduced capacity to earn money plus can't really make use of their cars much so it wouldn't be fair for them to pay to keep them. | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Aug 31, 2009, 10:00 pm |
I have just modified this Important Announcements forum so it's read-only. We can continue the discussion in the other thread (Announcements forum). It was pointed out to me that the important details of an important announcement probably should be kept readable rather than swamped in discussion and friendly banter. |