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Problems with PvP

Serephe Collision Force Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,496 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 Item imbalances First issue I have is that in a PvP situation, the weapons really aren't balanced. Weapons are causing recoil when they shouldn't (HMGs knocking cars into the air, really?!) some of the heavy weapons have enough recoil to practically disable ANY vehicle while killing it rapidly (looking at you CC/TG), ballistics weapons seemingly ignore skill checks (0 skill mortar hits at 200m? Not a problem. Try hitting at 120m with a car rifle with 0 skill.) Then there's the rares. Heavy lasers, lasers, RGMs and to a lesser extent mortars and tank guns. These are seen as near-unobtainable items, and rightly so... replacing them when lost is an enormous effort, either in time or money. The problem comes when the "new" guys start PvPing, or even just run around with their PvP flag set to open. They feel tough with their new buzzers armed with cannons and heavy car rifles and such, and attack Ninesticks or Goat or Latte etc. Or get jumped by me. Suddenly they find their 100+ gunners and cannons and buzzers are completely ineffective, because they're getting hit at 200-300 meters by these weapons... which are doing large amounts of damage. While the RGM damage seems fairly balanced by itself, the knockback provided by it and the range and accuracy are enormous issues. The heavy laser doesn't have knockback, but it practically hits harder than a car cannon, doesn't need to reload and can set vehicles randomly on fire. Mortars can pound them from over 200 meters away out of line of sight, with the explosions lifting their car off the ground slightly making it near impossible to escape. Tank guns... the only issue I have with them is that once in range, it only takes 1 or sometimes 2 turns to disable a vehicle. ANY vehicle. They also randomly set vehicles on fire. As for chassis, well... we can all see the problems there. How many people use hearses, chevaliers, chompers etc? Pretty much nobody besides the new guys. It's either Apache/Windsor/Phoenix or Firetruck/Buzzer/BPU/Osprey really. There's some exceptions of course, due to player taste, but there's so much unused vehicles out there. Where are the 10 bulk guns to make subcompacts a viable scouting vehicle? All weapons need to be brought more closely into line with each other... long distance weapons should have less recoil (HCR/laser, good in this, RGM bad), high damage weapons should be less accurate (ATG good, CC bad), only very close range weapons, or dropped weapons (perhaps even a fire spray weapon like the smokescreen) should have a chance to set a vehicle on fire. Fire shouldn't be a random chance to explode, it should slowly get worse over time to explode unless a gang member is told to put it out. Vehicles it's even harder, as quite a lot of vehicles have buggy suspension, or buggy hitboxes, etc. But basically, top speeds should be lowered slightly all around... with each chassis having a unique top speed depending on engine etc. SUVs and trucks, the heavier vehicles, need a much more limited top speed, possibly even below 100mph. And ideally, no weapon would destroy a car in 1 turn. Perhaps a buggy or a cycle, but not a muscle car or larger. It just takes away from the strategy of the game. PvP spawns Ok, another big problem -- 90% of the time in PvP I was spawning about 100 meters behind the target. This puts the attacker in the position of almost guaranteed victory (or total loss, if attacking someone like Latte and getting a bad spawn) as you can start firing immediately. There's no strategy there, it's just kill them quickly and it's over. Ask Damon, or JS/brutalbill how they like getting jumped from behind by cannons and tank guns and lasers with no chance to avoid them. It's not fun for those getting attacked, and it's no fun for the attacker (unless the attacker is only interested with the "phat lewts"). All PvP spawns should have at least 225-250 meter distance, with a LoS block between squads... escape should be at 500m only to make this possible without making escape too easy. Characters value/Character skill Ok this one will get me alot of hate, but whatever. It's quite simple really, characters train too slowly and cap far too high, which makes people place far more value on their gang members and makes them far too powerful. It's practically impossible to balance the game when there can be 200+ cross-trained gunners. Lowering the possible caps while increasing the training still provides character progression while not making losing a character or 5 as devastating on the player, and removes the problem of vet pvpers and their 150m+ CC shots, 250+ CR shots, etc. Oh yeah, replace Sniper spec with Car Rifle spec and only allow rapid-fire to work on small guns. CR balancing While I like the idea, it's currently flawed. If the vehicles/character skills were balanced a bit better it'd be fine though, I expect. Really, the only fun PvP I've had was a very small number of "fair" fights in Texan, and the limited fights I managed to take part in in the PvP league. Other than that, it's pretty much been beating up children for their lunch money, or throwing myself onto the sword of a knight... middle ground is pretty much impossible to find while the game is so unbalanced. ......................... vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0 Posted Apr 24, 2010, 4:32 am

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,684 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Sere - I think the reason of this post is your failure at Pvp lately. I mean, don't take a poodle to a dogfight. You attack me, and I have gunners in the 150-350 range. Your using 20 skilled guys.... then you attack Latte's "A-team" and get beat up. You even said after our battle that you expected it to play out the way it did. Although I think DW needs Pvp improvements and am glad you are testing the game's Pvp more than anyone else and being a good sport at it (another good thing), I disagree with most of your arguments and will explain them below Item imbalances  - The only one I think that is not in balance is the paint gun. And it almost is, with its 85 meter range, if the opponent is good and can hit at 150 meters. If... PvP spawns - In our encounter, it was pretty darn fair. And I was using a 200+ scout. Some need fixing yes, in SS for sure. But how do you determin who is placed where? If I have a 200+ scout and you are using a 20 scout, I think I should get an advantage...but my placement may not be an advantage if I am rear facing weapons. I'll give you a "needs improvement" here, yes. Characters value/skill Characters are the bread and butter of Dark-wind. Plain and simple. You want them nerfed so that you will have a chance attacking a vet player who has good guys, using new recruits. Sorry man. If I train my guys and keep em alive for a year, then I deserve to have a bonus against your 20 skilled recruits. Sorry. CR Balancing - We have talked about this in the RC. But your suggestion to balance "skills" is once again aimed at you having a better chance at attacking a vet with skilled guys with new recruits. Why would I want to risk my guys against your 1k guys you just hired? For what its worth, your not a bragger, poor sport, or bad player, and I personally appreciate this attitude. You have pvped alot of people, and I havent heard one person say a bad thing about you. Thats pretty cool. ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 circuit1 Posted Apr 24, 2010, 6:28 am

Serephe Collision Force Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,496 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 Longo said: Sere - I think the reason of this post is your failure at Pvp lately. I mean, don't take a poodle to a dogfight. You attack me, and I have gunners in the 150-350 range. Your using 20 skilled guys.... then you attack Latte's "A-team" and get beat up. You even said after our battle that you expected it to play out the way it did. Although I think DW needs Pvp improvements and am glad you are testing the game's Pvp more than anyone else and being a good sport at it (another good thing), I disagree with most of your arguments and will explain them below Losses don't bother me. What bothered me was almost every single fight I started I didn't have a chance of losing. When I attacked you it was an experiment to see if it was possible to win, but also because when I attacked people with my main squad they DID complain that it was unfair. Quite frankly, I'm disappointed that you'd think of me as someone who would get upset over one or two losses in PvP. Longo said: Item imbalances  - The only one I think that is not in balance is the paint gun. And it almost is, with its 85 meter range, if the opponent is good and can hit at 150 meters. See, I disagree with you there -- when there are items that are unobtainable that hold such a significant advantage in power, it makes it IMPOSSIBLE for people to match up with them. You say the PAINT GUN is the unbalanced weapon, why is that? Because it actually gives people a chance to beat you if they can paint you? Absurd. Longo said: PvP spawns - In our encounter, it was pretty darn fair. And I was using a 200+ scout. Some need fixing yes, in SS for sure. But how do you determin who is placed where? If I have a 200+ scout and you are using a 20 scout, I think I should get an advantage...but my placement may not be an advantage if I am rear facing weapons. I'll give you a "needs improvement" here, yes. Almost all the spawns (at least 9/10 of the events I did) are with the attacker 100 meters behind the defender. If you can't see what's wrong with that, and why it removes STRATEGY from the equation, then I'm at a loss here... PvP should be about player skill, not who brought the bigger guns, after all... Longo said: Characters value/skill Characters are the bread and butter of Dark-wind. Plain and simple. You want them nerfed so that you will have a chance attacking a vet player who has good guys, using new recruits. Sorry man. If I train my guys and keep em alive for a year, then I deserve to have a bonus against your 20 skilled recruits. Sorry. Yes, characters are the bread and butter of Darkwind. But as they are, they're too valuable. In a game with permadeath, needing to spend YEARS of real life time playing to get a guy up means that in PvP death is basically not an option. What would you have done if I'd managed to set fire to your buzzers and have them explode? How would latte have felt if the spawn had been different and I'd blown up his guys with my tank guns and car cannon spam? Longo said: CR Balancing - We have talked about this in the RC. But your suggestion to balance "skills" is once again aimed at you having a better chance at attacking a vet with skilled guys with new recruits. Why would I want to risk my guys against your 1k guys you just hired? I don't even see what you're arguing at the moment -- I simply stated that the CR balancing was working more or less fine, besides the previous problems I mentioned. I've simply posted what would have to change for global PvP to become a reality. Without that, all it will remain is a way to steal items off weaker players, or destroy the richer players items through suicide attacks. ......................... vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0 Posted Apr 24, 2010, 6:51 am

metrocube 12th Street Bangers Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Members Posts: 790 Joined: May 2, 2009 No, I think Sere makes valid points all around. Permadeath for my player characters is what keeps me from pvping, for example. Losing my cars I can do. Getting my 350+ scout's head blown off from a random roll after it took me 9 months to create him... yeah, !@#$ that. My player characters represent a substantial time investment and I'll be damned if I'm going to risk them in something as frivolous as PVP or pedestrian combat. Remove permadeath from PVP and pedestrian combat, and I would participate in those events. Maybe replace it with a one week coma. Sere you're mistaken about Longo's opinion regarding paint guns. He believes they need their range to be increased because they're ineffective at 85m when everyone else can shoot you from 150m out. Why do I always feel like the translator around here? :-) ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 24, 2010, 9:17 am Last edited Apr 24, 2010, 9:21 am by metrocube

*Marc5iver* 5ive Crew Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 1,355 Joined: Oct 10, 2008 metrocube said: Remove permadeath from PVP and pedestrian combat, and I would participate in those events. Maybe replace it with a one week coma. Something like this would make me more open to doing PvP and Ped combat events. ......................... vet wv gwextrav e2g marshal pvp4 pvp3 pvp2 Posted Apr 24, 2010, 10:37 am

FireFly Anarcho-Pumpkin Privateers Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 5,468 Joined: Mar 3, 2008 So... you want to take the rare awesome part out of awesome rare weapons... And take the awesome part out of awesome supergangers? Remove sniper... why? Sniper as a general ability makes perfect sense, its the ability to better target cars in the distance, no matter the weapon. This reminds me of that old PvP discussion... A new guy with 20 skill gangers and masses of swarm vehicles should stand no chance against a vet with the heavy gear, that's just not fair to the vet. Serephe... As a side note, why did you throw out all your cars and gangers? ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn deathrceL1 elmsautumn pvp1 pvp2 sssc raceL1 e2g combatL1 santa1 pvp3 gwextrav ww circuit31,18,0 Posted Apr 24, 2010, 2:11 pm Last edited Apr 24, 2010, 2:17 pm by FireFly

Group: Posts: 0 Joined: Today Posted Today, 8:32 pm

Serephe Collision Force Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,496 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 FireFly said: So... you want to take the rare awesome part out of awesome rare weapons... And take the awesome part out of awesome supergangers? There's plenty of ways to have "awesome rares" without them being completely unbalanced. Gang members certainly don't need to be so powerful as to completely trivialize the games content, either. Especially with the current speed of skill gain and the large size of gangs resulting in people placing far too much value on their gang members. FireFly said: Remove sniper... why? Sniper as a general ability makes perfect sense, its the ability to better target cars in the distance, no matter the weapon. Okay, explain why sniper should be better than heavy weapon spec for heavy weapons? Really it should either be changed to a car rifle spec, or toned down so that specific specs for weapons benefit that weapon more than just giving sniper to everyone... FireFly said: This reminds me of that old PvP discussion... A new guy with 20 skill gangers and masses of swarm vehicles should stand no chance against a vet with the heavy gear, that's just not fair to the vet. A new guy with 20 skill gangers and a swarm of vehicles can already beat a vet now using tactics, depending on map choice. The vet still has the advantage in character skill. That wouldn't change. What's the problem? FireFly said: Serephe... As a side note, why did you throw out all your cars and gangers? I was bored of attacking people with my good squad and having them bitch about me using lasers and long range cannons, or attacking people with my fresh squads and have them whine about how they get nothing even if they beat me. Or people just paying bounty because they only have PvP flag on for free skill gain. Basically, I see no point in playing until the game is more PvP friendly, if that even ever happens, so I've removed my expenses to save money until then. ......................... vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0 Posted Apr 24, 2010, 2:36 pm

Serephe Collision Force Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,496 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 *SirLatte* said: One thing I liked about seres points...Would be to change the rules on escaping and the spawn. I really do think it would make the game more tactical if there was enough room to move around and to set up a plan. I got incredibly lucky that Sere chose LightShow to experiment on. As it is a very heavy rear weapons equiped squad. So his spawn behind was to my advantage. This was further helped by him being on a tight corner where he really could only go 2 x 2. Yes, the current spawns really annoy me. I'm glad that it was more biased in favor of you, rather than toward me -- if I'd spawned 100 meters behind you with no cover, I could have breached 2 of your buzzers on turn 1 of firing...without you being able to do anything about it. how is that fair? How is that fun? It's ridiculous. Now replace your squad with someone like say.. Damon, or JS, and it's even more absurd -- they can't even fight back at all! At least in the pvp league, with the smaller number of vehicles and the enforced skill caps, there's more tactics used. *SirLatte* said: Just some random thoughts... I still am not a fan of PvP...as there always seems to be bad feelings as result. Serephes declaration of shooting to kill would have pissed me off so much if he had gotten the oppurtunity... But I refused to hold it against him. I have always Liked Sere and the way he plays. He made his intentions known and alowed me to react accordingly. There's always going to be bad feelings in PvP, especially with so many people using the PvP flag for training rather than actually having an interest in PvP.  ......................... vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0 Posted Apr 24, 2010, 2:40 pm Last edited Apr 24, 2010, 2:41 pm by Serephe

Studman Studly Men Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 116 Joined: Dec 14, 2006 The OP is really well written. The only thing I would like to add is that those with PvP on flagged not be given the option of paying a bounty. Unless the other payer offers it in-game. Those with it off could be targeted but enjoy paying a lower fee. 1. Lower the maximum skill caps, make 100s rare. 2. Increase lethality. It is ridiculous that in a world where rockets and machine guns are going off, no one ever seems to die. 3. Rapidly speed up aging. 4. a heavy increase cr modifer for the ultra rares. Make it stack. So that a Buzzer could still be used with a reasonable CR but if you throw those 2 car cannons on it gets a much more accurate CR then what it is now. (about 2-3x as much.) ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 25, 2010, 12:57 am Last edited Apr 25, 2010, 1:06 am by Studman

Fealty Lost Slaughterhouse: Bloody Remains Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 1,261 Joined: Jan 6, 2009 Lots of good suggestions and many spot-on points concerning PvP. Here's my take: Yes, getting shot up with guns that set you on fire while having no chance to hit the enemy (except with a single missed shot) is frustrating. However: as I've said to Serephe and others I've PvP'd with, they worked those gangers up and acquired that equipment so there's no reason they shouldn't be allowed to use it. Problem is: you outclass everything you're going after, unless it's another long-time player or someone who's 'figured out the system' and is fanatic enough to play night and day every day. As a former Marine Corps scout, I see Ser's point concerning Sniper. It should be a spec' that's only for CR's, HCR's and Lasers. Ranges over 150 meters should be the exclusive domain of these weapons. Auto-fire weapons are unusable with any skills I've ever learned sniping. Gunny Hath#### fired an M-2 .50 single shot to obtain, until the advent of the Barrett-style .50 rifles, one of the longest ranged shots ever made...against a moving target! He'd never have come close using it on auto. Ballistic weapons, like CC's and ATG's (yes, they're Ballistic weapons) that heave a large/heavy shell at targets require a different skill set. Until computers entered the game, firing weapons like this was a 'best guess' sort of affair, unless you were firing from a fixed position that could utilize aiming/triangulation devices. They require forward observers who can 'walk' rounds into the target or pre-combat aiming to 'zero' in on a specific spot. Ballistic Prediction should be changed to these types of weapons and also cover CGL/PG/Mortars. Heavy Weapons skill should apply to auto-fire weapons: HMGs, MMGs, MGs, HGGs, GGs and should give you increased damage, representing your ability to 'hold' the target within the area of the massed fire these weapons provide as opposed to pin-point accuracy, thereby providing more hits/damage. Perhaps a skill titled "AutoFire" should be made. It would allow those with the skill to eek out more shots per clip. A 20-shot HMG would provide 25 shots because of the users ability to fire more accurately, thereby doing the same amount of damage with less rounds? Let me prephase this next portion: I see "Car Rifles" as just that; large caliber rifles (like, say, my .458 Weatherby or the more familiar .600 Nitro Express of Tremors fame), stripped of their stock, leaving just the firing mechanism/clip. A Heavy Car Rifle is a Barrett's-style weapon. A Car Cannon is a weapon that fires a 20mm round, semiautomatic, with a fixed clip. It has no burst effect, but a devastating effect against armor. An Anti-Tank Gun fires a large diameter round designed to produce a combined explosion/penetrating type damage. There should be no 'splash' from either of these weapons. They are designed to penetrate armor, and explosions do not penetrate armor. Burst effect should be the sole purvey of rockets, scaled to size, as they are now. Both the CC and especially the ATG should be highly affected by being fired from a moving platform. It takes computers to allow an Abrahms tank to fire on the move. DW doesn't have those. High-skill gunners would of course offset this negative, making them as nasty as they should be, but not guaranteeing the high volume of dead-on hits they now get. RGMs. They need to go away. Radar doesn't work very well in a highly irradiated atmosphere. End of story. Make them wire-guided, with sliding chance for them to lose guidance depending on intervening objects. (probably a nightmare to code) To fix this, make them like TOW rockets. Externally mounted, 4-shot weapons. The only thing that could hold a launcher unexposed would be the 'trucks,' TT, Lorry, Bus, FT. And no, Hummers can't mount TOWs internally. Increase CR to match damage. Use the HMG as a base. Every point OVER HMG damage DOUBLES CR of a weapon. So, HMG is 10 (example), does up to 4 points damage. CC does up to 8. 20=5th point, 40=6th point, 80=7th point 160=8th point. Apply to all weapons. Making gangers part of the CR is difficult, but changing the CR values would offset weapon lethality, changing the game up. If you wanted to bring big guns, you'll be bringing a lot less. As to the actual PvP, as many have mentioned, the thing that makes most people NOT want to PvP is the loss-factor. You work your arse off to get this stuff...you don't want to lose it. So most don't risk it. Luckily we have a more mature crowd of people, on the whole, and 'nonlethal' PvP does take place. I've proposed it before and will reiterate it here: Allow 'per vehicle' resignations that stop said vehicle from taking further damage but also make it not able to deal further damage. As soon as a vehicle surrenders, the owning player should point it away from combat and extend and disengage or, if possible, have the vehicle 'autodriven' towards the most empty spot that takes it away from the fight? Or outright make it autoescape the combat and disappear? Then, at the end of combat, the players would be given loot screens based on the amount of damage they did to their opponent that would be more akin to using HPs in the shops: weapons/equipment that were ON the enemy's vehicles would appear as loot. Not all...again, based on damage done, the number would increase. So if you had a fight to the death, there would be more loot. If you had a nonlethal fight, only a few items. That way, guys that try and exploit the system won't get anything, because they put on a show of having PvP with few shots actually taken. Those who fight, even just to 'blues,' would be able to get rewarded. Additionally, to insure nonexploit, a surrender option would appear as soon as a vehicle's armor is breached, or a 'blue' hit is done, then, if declined, on each subsequent 'blue' hit until the owner surrenders. This way, players are in control and decide when and if they want to give up, and attackers can know whether to hold or pour it on. Both players get control over the fight. Both players can benefit from surrendered vehicles. The winner would gain the better loot. More to come...I'm getting carried away. ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 25, 2010, 1:22 am

theHumungous Worldeaters Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 687 Joined: Jan 12, 2010 Studman said: 4. a heavy increase cr modifer for the ultra rares. Make it stack. So that a Buzzer could still be used with a reasonable CR but if you throw those 2 car cannons on it gets a much more accurate CR then what it is now. (about 2-3x as much.) This is a pretty good idea, though I don't agree with the other points. ......................... vet wv Posted Apr 25, 2010, 1:25 am

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 To implement this stuff would require a reboot. Which frankly i'm not cool with. Much as I like this game without any of the characters/goodies/etc, that would actually make me pick up a new hobby...like real life or something. Think about it. You eliminate some rares or whatever and something else becomes rare that people value...whatever it is , there is always something. I don't deny that PvP can have some really wild swings in luck or whatever, but I actually think that's kind of cool. Really we are talking about the "feelings" around PvP right? Like the major loss of a big ganger or rare item. Well you make the cap 100 and people will still get pissy when they lose that 100 ganger. Or that hard to get heavy machine gun! The only thing that really needs fixing is how PvP is started and the initial MERGE of combat and the BENEFITS of it AND HOW IT IMPACTS EVAN AS A WHOLE FROM EACH BATTLE. That is what is missing. I do not value anything shark, the penultimate fair-weather fan of the game wants to contribute in the way of ideas. So i'm out, your fired...whatever. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,104,31 Posted Apr 25, 2010, 1:28 am Last edited Apr 25, 2010, 1:33 am by Joel Autobaun

Serephe Collision Force Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,496 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 Damon_Angel said: lots of stuff The weapon changes you posted interest me, even though what I'm really trying to push for is balance rather than realism... realism and balance together would be beautiful though. Basing weapon CR off damage probably wouldn't work, some combination of damage/CR/range/ammo perhaps would. I don't know, I haven't really thought about it that much. I like the idea of per vehicle resignations, though I'd like the option to disallow it for attacks made against me (not attacking other people though, forcing them into your rules is hardly fair). Joel Autobaun said: Much less stuff than Damon's post It wouldn't necessarily require a reboot, however it'd be a lot of work on Sams part either way. Still, I'm not demanding this or anything, I'm simply posting what I believe would be required from my own experiences. There's no need to ELIMINATE rares, simply to BALANCE them. An unbalanced game is pretty much impossible to provide a decent PvP environment in. As for the characters, I'm not suggesting to make an entire gang trainable in a week... simply to make it so that if characters are killed, it doesn't take months of time to train replacements. As the game is, people protect their characters far too much... how will they react when they have characters killed in PvP? And please don't bring any outside arguments with people into my thread. That goes for everyone. ......................... vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0 Posted Apr 25, 2010, 1:53 am

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 Really think we need to "balance" the rares more? I mean if you get a 100M spawn behind someone with twin HMG and they have a hvy laser- you are gonna beat the #### out of them with 100lrg gunz to their X2 snipers. It's all relative. Frankly I would NEVER risk a hvy laser or RGM in PVP on purpose...for just that reason - a bad spawn and you lose it. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,104,31 Posted Apr 25, 2010, 2:02 am Last edited Apr 25, 2010, 2:04 am by Joel Autobaun

Serephe Collision Force Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,496 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 Joel Autobaun said: Really think we need to "balance" the rares more?  I mean if you get a 100M spawn behind someone with twin HMG and they have a hvy laser- you are gonna beat the #### out of them with 100lrg gunz to their X2 snipers.  It's all relative.  Frankly I would NEVER risk a hvy laser or RGM in PVP on purpose...for just that reason - a bad spawn and you lose it. Actually, since heavy lasers do more damage than anything short of a tank gun, set vehicles on fire, and have perfect accuracy at that range... they'd still win against CC's. Hell they'd probably win against tank guns unless the gunners on the tank guns were 200+ multispecced. ......................... vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0 Posted Apr 25, 2010, 2:10 am

Lord Foul .-^-HellRazors-^. Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Rules Council Posts: 3,543 Joined: Jan 12, 2008 Ser said: Quote: PvP spawns Ok, another big problem -- 90% of the time in PvP I was spawning about 100 meters behind the target. This puts the attacker in the position of almost guaranteed victory (or total loss, if attacking someone like Latte and getting a bad spawn) as you can start firing immediately. There's no strategy there, it's just kill them quickly and it's over. Ask Damon, or JS/brutalbill how they like getting jumped from behind by cannons and tank guns and lasers with no chance to avoid them. It's not fun for those getting attacked, and it's no fun for the attacker (unless the attacker is only interested with the "phat lewts"). All PvP spawns should have at least 225-250 meter distance, with a LoS block between squads... escape should be at 500m only to make this possible without making escape too easy. I’ve made sure Sam was well aware of this in the RC forum when the pvp league started a few months back, with screens shots to show examples of this issue as well. Not sure when he can get around to looking at this, but he is aware. ......................... vet race1 deathrce1 wv zom circuit1 pvp1 northernsummer community circuit3 paintball55,201,123 Posted Apr 25, 2010, 2:21 am

Serephe Collision Force Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,496 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 Lord Foul said: I’ve made sure Sam was well aware of this in the RC forum when the pvp league started a few months back, with screens shots to show examples of this issue as well. Not sure when he can get around to looking at this, but he is aware. Good to hear. I'm sure he's aware of many of the problems. He's a busy man outside of the game, with quite a lot to do inside the game also. ......................... vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0 Posted Apr 25, 2010, 2:24 am

Djihani Rollovers Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Members Posts: 899 Joined: Jun 26, 2009 I stopped reading when shark actually made a darn good point. (declaimer to say I'm drunk and hyped up on adrenaline) But seriously Sere, it took you those losses to come up with the thread? I've always respected you as a funny and able player even though youve been scary lately but... ......................... vet wv zom gateautumn raceL1 deathrceL10,4,0 Posted Apr 25, 2010, 3:34 am

Serephe Collision Force Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 3,496 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 Djihani said: I stopped reading when shark actually made a darn good point. (declaimer to say I'm drunk and hyped up on adrenaline) But seriously Sere, it took you those losses to come up with the thread? I've always respected you as a funny and able player even though youve been scary lately but... The losses had nothing to do with it -- one I was using junk guys, and the other was a bad spawn, but both fights I entered KNOWING they were going to be losses. Seriously, why do people think I care about two losses? I've been trying to push to make the game harder at the higher end for a while, so that people do actually lose occasionally. This thread has been a long time coming, since the first time I started PvPing. ......................... vet wv paintladder ww0,3,0 Posted Apr 25, 2010, 3:44 am

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