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Scripts v.276, The last ever PvP patch. Cough.

Nekojin Cats Laughing Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors Posts: 1,039 Joined: Jan 19, 2008 Sometimes, Joel, your preferences (your "immersion" if you will) just has to take a back seat to reality. I started to make an argument about the immutable fact that PvP, across all MMO-style games, is actually not a preferred play-style, but I didn't have data to back that up. So I decided to get the best data I could find. - - - - - But before we do that, let's do a little anecdotal evidence. I've been playing MMOs nearly since the start. I dodged the bullet called Ultima Online (specifically because of the unrestricted, open PvP setup - note that UO actually changed its playstyle to be "more carebear" because they were losing members in droves to newer MMOs that catered to people who didn't like open PvP), and picked up Everquest right after its first expansion was released. EQ tried repeatedly to come up with some sort of PvP system that would work. Even with dozens of "carebear" servers, they were unable to adequately populate even a small handful of PvP servers. The PvP community openly and loudly criticized Sony for its handling of PvP, and made numerous suggestions that Sony was willing to try, such as the "Good vs. Evil" server (Good characters could only initiate PvP against Evil characters, and vice versa) and the "Hardcore" server (death by any means resulted in a character reset). Despite that, none of these servers maintained a large enough population to justify having them all, and so in 2005, Sony merged ALL of its PvP servers into one server. - - - - - So, back to the hard facts. The best data to date comes from that monolith of MMO gaming, World of Warcraft. Blizzard currently has 241 official servers running. Of those 241, there are 112 "Normal" servers, 106 "PvP" servers, 17 "RP" servers, and 6 "RP-PvP" servers. Going solely by the server counts, it seems fairly balanced, with a slight edge going to the non-PvP servers. In fact, it appears that Role-Playing is far less popular than PvP, even! But that's not really how it stands. I took a snapshot of those servers at about 8:30 PM PST (in other words, at the tail end of the peak called "Prime Time"). Of the 112 "Normal" servers, almost all of them are rated at "High" (30 servers) or "Medium" (81 servers) population, with only one "Normal" server at "Low" population. Contrast that to the PvP servers - of the 106 PvP servers, 45 are "Low" population, 44 are "Medium," and only 17 are "High." What exactly is meant by High, Medium, and Low is something that nobody but Blizzard knows. But it's still possible to draw parallels - Despite there being nearly as many PvP servers as Normal servers, the PvP servers have slightly more than half as many High population servers compared to the Normal servers, and again slightly more than half of the Mediums. - - - - - Keep in mind that I'm not a Carebear (rabid anti-PvP'er). I've played EVE Online, and my main characters in WoW were on PvP servers - I was even a known and respected member of my server's Battlegrounds population for a while. I also enjoy directly competitive games like Team Fortress, Altitude, and Halo. I'm not trying to make Darkwind a non-PvP game. That would be absurd - Car Wars, and by extension Darkwind, is very much a PvP game. But it also pays to be aware of the gaming community, and be aware of the sensibilities of the player base for this game. The avidly pro-PvP section of the community is a small percentage of the player base - just as small as the Carebear section, in fact. Most of the players lie in the middle ground, and want their PvP to be controlled in some fashion. The solution that Sam came up with is a reasonable solution. Sam could have made Darkwind an expressly PvP world, with players being able to freely jump other players at will, at any time. And perhaps that could have had a large enough player base to support the game... for a time. But there's no question that the game would be much, much smaller than it is now. Take what you can get. PvP on limited terms is better than no PvP at all. The harder you try to make others fight PvP battles, the more you're going to come off as a jackass. Be cool, let it be, and gradually more people will come out into the wilds beyond Somerset, and try their hand at PvP'ing with you. The change is new. Give it time to settle. ......................... vet deathrceL1 wv cont Posted Dec 24, 2009, 5:44 am Last edited Dec 24, 2009, 5:49 am by Nekojin

Mad Mike the mad mad crushers Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 2,900 Joined: Aug 1, 2007 if you are followed into a town event by someone looking to kill your characters the playing field is a bit leveled by the fact you will both have the same vehicles. i think it adds to the game for this to happen. your pvp flag is off so you avoid pvp in scouts and travels that has changed. the fact you enter town events and are subject to getting killed has not changed. so really, nothing has changed. it was always possible to get shot and killed even after you have resigned. the scenario is the same now as it has been before. so just stay out of town events and scout more... ......................... vet wv Posted Dec 24, 2009, 5:47 am

Nekojin Cats Laughing Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors Posts: 1,039 Joined: Jan 19, 2008 Mad Mike said: it was always possible to get shot and killed even after you have resigned. Characters auto-escape from Town events a few turns after they Resign. How many turns is that, these days? ......................... vet deathrceL1 wv cont Posted Dec 24, 2009, 5:55 am

Joel Autobaun Joels Bastards Darkwind Guru Deathrace Mafia Faction Group: Sinbinned Posts: 4,598 Joined: Nov 10, 2008 Bah i'm zero for 12 or 15 something in Forum PvP, I guess I'll just shut my mouth here and make everyone including myself happy. That care bear stare is a bitch. ......................... vet northernsummer deathrce1 raceL1 deathrceL1 ww ped1 sssc paintball semiprocombat ped2 e2g gwextrav gwped combat1 paintladder elmsautumn gateautumn wv race1 combatL1 pvp1 pvp5 pvp4 zom pvp3 circuit1 pvp2 circuit2 circuit3 ss2fl67 slay2013 storm2013 geek triangle198,96,31 Posted Dec 24, 2009, 6:31 am

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Nek- You got alot of time on your hands bud. I liked your post and hearing the fact that you have played so many games, excellent! But having played UO and EQ ALOT, I have to say that some of your statements are incorrect. UO didnt lose players because of its open Pvp. It lost them from its incredible, terrible lag, and the fact that EQ was created, and took many of its people. The Pvp did annoy some people, but it was also part of the game. Some of my best UO moments were calls on my "ICQ" requesting help with bad guys. As for EQ, I started on a carebear server, but then started a guy on Rallos Zek, a Pvp server. I ended up staying there, and was in probably the biggest and most successful guilds on the server. The server was very busy, and these servers did not merge because people didnt like Pvp. They merged because WOW came out, and everyone left. I stayed well into the merge, but Rallos Zek only had allowed you to attack people of 4 lvls difference, and after the merge, there was no level restriction and I didnt like it, and moved to a carebear server, and eventually quit because it took so dang long to recover. I 2 boxed a Mage and Cleric, and occasionally a Enchanter (3 boxing), and would actually kill mobs and then go do yardwork for 10 minutes while my mana recovered... Well back to DW PVP. Ive played 2 years and a PvP debate comes up every so often, and the rules change. The fact of the matter is that PVP has never been a big thing, being almost totally unrestricted when I started and very seldom abused. You had your Shark, etc, but the community addressed him. As I have said before, Im not big into Pvp, but I like the option to be able to attack if I want to, and not have the "world" restricted. Sure, there is a chance of me being jumped, but its part of the thrill of the game not knowing if my next encounter is an NPC or a PC. I just hate to see DW restricted like this, and can already see a few abuses of the brand new system. I dont want to see anyone leave the game because they are worried about Pvp, and know Sam was backed into a corner with all of the debate on it and had to do something. I would only hope that people would give the Pvp option "yes" a try, they can always revert back if they need to. Because, cmon guys, Evan is a dangerous place. ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Dec 24, 2009, 8:44 am

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 Well at least Joel had the courtesy to ask sam and the community before actually doing what he stated, for that i give him Kudos not hate ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted Dec 24, 2009, 9:26 am

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 *Grograt* said: Well at least Joel had the courtesy to ask sam and the community before actually  doing what he stated, for that i give him Kudos not hate Good point, Grog. Good post BTW, neko. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Dec 24, 2009, 10:21 am Last edited Dec 24, 2009, 10:23 am by *sam*

Nekojin Cats Laughing Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors Posts: 1,039 Joined: Jan 19, 2008 Longo said: Nek- You got alot of time on your hands bud. I liked your post and hearing the fact that you have played so many games, excellent! But having played UO and EQ ALOT, I have to say that some of your statements are incorrect. UO didnt lose players because of its open Pvp. It lost them from its incredible, terrible lag, and the fact that EQ was created, and took many of its people. The Pvp did annoy some people, but it was also part of the game. My facts are not incorrect, actually. Different perspectives for viewing the same events, perhaps. UO lost a fair number of players because they hated the UI, or the lag, or any number of other reasons. There's no question of that. But until EQ and other early MMOs came along, there was no choice with regard to PvP - you either played and dealt with it, or you simply quit. There was no way to gauge how much the MMO player base liked or disliked PvP. Felucca (original UO) was all there was... Until EQ came along. EQ had many advantages over UO, not least of which was the 3D graphics. However, note well the dates: EQ was released in March, 1999. UO: Renaissance, which introduced Trammel (and gave Felucca a name) as a PvP-safe world, was released in April, 2000. The timing is not at all coincidental - the non-PvP nature of EQ was noticed and heeded by the UO devs, who saw a dramatic rise in departures after that point. PVP (or, more specifically, ganking and griefing*) was one of the most frequently-given reasons given for leaving UO, and UO's devs felt that they had to add a non-PvP portion of the game to stay even remotely competitive. It took them a year to come up with and implement a system that satisfied them. Longo said: As for EQ, I started on a carebear server, but then started a guy on Rallos Zek, a Pvp server. I ended up staying there, and was in probably the biggest and most successful guilds on the server. The server was very busy, and these servers did not merge because people didnt like Pvp. They merged because WOW came out, and everyone left. I stayed well into the merge, but Rallos Zek only had allowed you to attack people of 4 lvls difference, and after the merge, there was no level restriction and I didnt like it, and moved to a carebear server, and eventually quit because it took so dang long to recover. Yes, the advent of WoW (and EQ2, to a lesser extent) were somewhat of a death knell for EQ. And you're right, the PvP servers were fairly busy (and yes, I exaggerated the lack of players on PvP servers - it's hyperbole),  but there were a small handful of PvP servers, compared to the several dozen non-PvP servers, most of which were just as busy. EQ was ruthless about managing server populations, and server mergers happened even before WoW came out. Longo said: Well back to DW PVP. *snip* Longo said: I just hate to see DW restricted like this, and can already see a few abuses of the brand new system. What abuses? I'm sure Sam would like to know about them. Longo said: I dont want to see anyone leave the game because they are worried about Pvp, and know Sam was backed into a corner with all of the debate on it and had to do something. I would only hope that people would give the Pvp option "yes" a try, they can always revert back if they need to. Because, cmon guys, Evan is a dangerous place.  Sure, Evan's a dangerous place. But people need to feel like they're making progress. It's a human instinct. And when someone can come along out of nowhere, taking you by surprise and make weeks worth of progress vanish in just a few minutes, it's more than frustrating, it's damn infuriating. The element of consent makes all the difference in the world, and so does the awareness of replaceability. Losing your only Big Pickup or Buzzer hits a lot harder than losing an Apache, Phoenix, or Moose. Coupled with the loss of your top gangers, all because you were ambushed? Not a pretty picture. Also, with regard to, "Hoping that people toggle to Yes to give it a try," note that you can only change your PvP setting once a week (I'm getting that right, aren't I, Sam?). If someone toggles their PvP on, and then decides they don't like it, they're stuck with that decision for a week, and if there's another player actively gunning for them, it could end up crippling their ability to replace their losses. When I was around before, I constantly told new players not to use cars that they couldn't afford to lose when going out for Scouts, and frequently demonstrated the combat-worthiness of cars that others considered "useless" (among my regular combat cars were a Pickup, a Poltergeist, and a Chomper that I still have and use). Low cost to replace or repair means a lot, but many people either never understand that, or forget it. Some listened to my suggestions about replaceability, some didn't. It doesn't seem that people are still giving that advice - or that it isn't being followed, at least. Finally... I do know about risk and PvP. I won the Evan Deathrace Ladder of 2046., and I'm in good position to be in the Top 10 of the current Deathrace League. You don't do that without throwing your gangers face-first into danger. But it's danger I choose, when I'm ready to deal with it. Some days, I just don't want to deal with the hassles of player interaction - and especially not with another player as a surprise attacker. So come give me a challenge some time. I might take you up on it. Or I might not. - - - - - * I actually considered playing UO waaay back before EQ existed. I'd played MUDs and Door games, and had some fond memories of the Ultima series. But before I could get around to trying it, I started hearing tales of high-powered players standing just outside the gates of towns, fireballing anyone who approached, just so that they could loot the poor suckers' corpses. Which was perfectly within the rules of UO at the time. Thank god for progress, and the community's overall disapproval of griefing, ganking, and other forms of virtual harrassment. Edit: Damn broken MB Code. =>_<= EDIT: Fixed your coding, per your permission. -Lugal ......................... vet deathrceL1 wv cont Posted Dec 24, 2009, 10:57 am Last edited Dec 24, 2009, 8:36 pm by *Lugal*

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 To long...war and peace kept my attention more ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted Dec 24, 2009, 11:00 am Last edited Dec 24, 2009, 11:00 am by *Grograt*

Nekojin Cats Laughing Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors Posts: 1,039 Joined: Jan 19, 2008 *Grograt* said: To long...war and peace kept my attention more  Broken code doesn't help, either.  Short version: Let people feel that they're making progress, and more importantly let them take risks on their own terms. Short enough?  ......................... vet deathrceL1 wv cont Posted Dec 24, 2009, 11:02 am

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 I tried to make sense of it, broken code and all, but my head hurts. Your shorter analogy does help ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted Dec 24, 2009, 11:04 am

Nekojin Cats Laughing Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors Posts: 1,039 Joined: Jan 19, 2008 There was also a small bit about, "Me big tough Ladder Champion, you no question my bravery," or something to that effect. ......................... vet deathrceL1 wv cont Posted Dec 24, 2009, 11:08 am

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 God we have another Spanky in our midsts ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted Dec 24, 2009, 11:16 am

*Longo* Longos Merry Men Darkwind Guru Mutants Faction Group: Marshals Posts: 6,659 Joined: Dec 15, 2007 LONGO said "I just hate to see DW restricted like this, and can already see a few abuses of the brand new system." NEKOJIN said "What abuses? I'm sure Sam would like to know about them. " Player A and Player B own a camp together. Player A has his Pvp switch turned OFF. Player B has his turned ON. Player B creates a squad that Player A joins. They kill a ton of PC gangers in numerous ambushes around Elms and GW. Then Player A goes back to running his camp, moving tons of materials there, and those PCs that he destroyed with Player B can only sit at the Gates and watch, unable to do anything. Yea, Player A doesnt get a PvP boost, but who cares? Its not that significant and the trade off to travel without a chance of PC intervention is worth it, and he gets his PVP fun by just ganging up on others with Player B. ......................... vet combatL1 ped1 paintladder semiprocombat ped2 wv pvp4 pvp1 gwped paintball pvp3 pvp5 slay2013 marshal circuit2 combat1 e2g raceL1 gwextrav gateautumn pvp2 triangle1 Posted Dec 24, 2009, 3:40 pm

Mad Mike the mad mad crushers Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 2,900 Joined: Aug 1, 2007 looks like the pvp flag thing didnt really fix anything. its sad with this small community we actually have to micro manage the rules to make sure no one is exploiting ......................... vet wv Posted Dec 24, 2009, 4:41 pm

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,587 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 The only "exploit" there is Player A can't be retaliated against, but Player B sure can... ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted Dec 24, 2009, 4:44 pm

*Ninesticks* The Wombles Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 3,371 Joined: Apr 11, 2008 And of course there is always Bounty Hunters ......................... vet wv marshal pvp4 community pvp20,1,0 Posted Dec 24, 2009, 5:53 pm

*Lugal* Luna Sea Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 2,246 Joined: Jan 27, 2008 *Grograt* said: To long...war and peace kept my attention more  Too bad; Neko's posting some good stuff.  Neko if you want I can go back and fix your code.  Longo said: Player A and Player B own a camp together. Player A has his Pvp switch turned OFF. Player B has his turned ON. Player B creates a squad that Player A joins. They kill a ton of PC gangers in numerous ambushes around Elms and GW. Then Player A goes back to running his camp, moving tons of materials there, and those PCs that he destroyed with Player B can only sit at the Gates and watch, unable to do anything. Yea, Player A doesnt get a PvP boost, but who cares? Its not that significant and the trade off to travel without a chance of PC intervention is worth it, and he gets his PVP fun by just ganging up on others with Player B. So this has little to do with the new system, and more to do with the Camp War system.  If you feel flagging your camp isn't worth it, that's up to you.  Player A can still be hit when he goes out with player B.  Just because they may be hunting doesn't mean they'd win. If that's not enough, maybe petition Sam to move more to a WoW system - engaging in PvP automatically flags your gang and resets the cooldown. Mad Mike said: looks like the pvp flag thing didnt really fix anything. It's been what, two days?  Not every change will directly affect every player; that doesn't invalidate it as an improvement. When did you guys get so bitter?  ......................... vet marshal wv Posted Dec 24, 2009, 5:57 pm

Nekojin Cats Laughing Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors Posts: 1,039 Joined: Jan 19, 2008 *Lugal* said: *Grograt* said: To long...war and peace kept my attention more  Too bad; Neko's posting some good stuff.  Neko if you want I can go back and fix your code.  If you can make the changes stick, more power to you. Every time I check the "Use code, dammit" checkbox, it ignores it; when I go back in to edit, it's unchecked again. ......................... vet deathrceL1 wv cont Posted Dec 24, 2009, 6:22 pm

*Grograt* Grograts Gonads Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 8,377 Joined: Oct 5, 2008 Nekojin said: *Lugal* said: *Grograt* said: To long...war and peace kept my attention more  Too bad; Neko's posting some good stuff.  Neko if you want I can go back and fix your code.  If you can make the changes stick, more power to you. Every time I check the "Use code, dammit" checkbox, it ignores it; when I go back in to edit, it's unchecked again. even i tried to edit it, complete quote/unquote mess lol ......................... vet marshal wv community Posted Dec 24, 2009, 6:27 pm

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