Pages: << prev 1, 2, 3 next >>

Jake just got mean

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 I have just implemented a mark-down when you sell stuff to the town mechanic (different in each town, worst in SS). Important: please empty your browser cache, as there is a javascript file that needs updating. If you don't do this, you will probably see prices without the mark-down when you're deciding what to sell. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Sep 2, 2008, 10:37 pm

*Lugal* Luna Sea Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Marshals Posts: 2,246 Joined: Jan 27, 2008 Is this intended to discourage established players from farming Somerset for cash? ......................... vet marshal wv Posted Sep 2, 2008, 11:08 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Primarily, yes. It's something I meant to do for a long time but never got around to. It's not good if staying in SS is more profitable as well as easier... ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Sep 2, 2008, 11:36 pm

Parapsycho DW eSports Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Subscribers Posts: 644 Joined: May 23, 2006 I think in general, it's a good move, but for people that dont have massive gangs, it would mean taking a loss every time we scout. Especially with the new AI which seems to target 1 car. ......................... vet wv paintladder Posted Sep 2, 2008, 11:58 pm

Six Gun Jack Jacks Gunfighters Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 219 Joined: Jun 10, 2006 I am not trying to be negative Sam, but this only hurts the newer players not the rich players. Most vets scout in SS just for fun. To be frank, money is meaningless after a certain point, so... you now just made it even tougher for new players to get established. Us vets could care less about the loot selling price. Now this would work if in conjunction to loot money being harder to obtain, if we had : 1. something to spend said money on not ways to make less of it. 2. limited hoarding of items so there is more economy money flowing as well. (I am a big fan of boosting lockup fees in town, its just not right you can have infinite space available in all towns for next to nothing, no way a town garage would store this much junk for each gang unlimited) I know you are working on other stuff but I honestly think this is not the best first step to fixing the economy. Think this way : how to make it more challenging moneywise for the vets, yet dont make it any tougher on the new players. one simple way is use this change Jake only does this to players over a certain fame, rep, or some other method to calculate if a player is new or not. ......................... vet wv elmsautumn pvp1 Posted Sep 3, 2008, 12:03 am Last edited Sep 3, 2008, 12:06 am by Six Gun Jack

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 I'm going to also be increasing garage and lockup fees jack, this wasn't intended to happen in isolation. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Sep 3, 2008, 12:14 am

Parapsycho DW eSports Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Subscribers Posts: 644 Joined: May 23, 2006 I think if you lower the sale price of cars, you should also lower the repair prices too. That way, newbies and casual players still make a (albeit small) profit, and massive scouts don't bring the same profit as normal sized scouts in other towns. ......................... vet wv paintladder Posted Sep 3, 2008, 12:16 am

Skyce MFP Recruits Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: Aug 6, 2008 Good move to lower re-sell prices but bad to raise garage fees for casual players like me. I think I've gone on 1 scout in the last two weeks. I'm not sure about the rest of the playerbase but with two young kids and often long workdays - I barely have time to play. Ad to the fact that I don't live in a common time zone. If I'm just making enough to pay for garage fees - what's the motivation to play? Sam, this is your game afterall so I have no business telling you what to do. My mere suggestion is to consider a different route that "charges" players through use. The more you play - the more you earn - the more your operation costs increase. There was a thread which talked about a system like this which some felt was more fair to casual and veteran player alike here: http://www.dark-wind.com/forums2/index.php?a=topic&t=5130 One of the reasons why I like Darkwind as a change of pace from the MMO's/subscription based games model is that I don't have to feel guilty if I can't get online so much yet still feel "productive" while I'm paying real world money. ......................... vet Posted Sep 3, 2008, 12:49 am

Dr Mathias Wasteland Extravaganza Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Contributors + IP Posts: 1,418 Joined: Oct 9, 2007 Skyce said: Good move to lower re-sell prices but bad to raise garage fees for casual players like me. I've always suggested an exponentially escalating scale for lockups and garages, not a flat % hike. Newbs shouldnt be impacted at all by that- have it ramp so people need to pay some heavy coin if they want 50 cars in SS. The town aint that big! Or give us garage options- In town can be high priced, storage at the edge of the SS junkyard track is dirt cheap but theres a chance for damage each week... or something. Lowering resale is not that bad a hit to anyone overall, as new players have the option to rent cars to scout in... that was a HUGE boost to starting players and is pretty much the reason players can get a Landrunner as their first car. ......................... vet combat1 ped1 wv cont Posted Sep 3, 2008, 1:12 am Last edited Sep 3, 2008, 1:18 am by Dr Mathias

Mad Mike the mad mad crushers Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Subscribers Posts: 2,900 Joined: Aug 1, 2007 I almost feel this popped up when i moved back to somerset with my mega scouts and the gazette did a story on how money there is to be made. But I do agree that jake should be mean but only to rich players. Make the higher the net worth of the player the lower jake will pay for your loot. that seems like the fairest way to do it. jake will pay more to a poor player out of sympathy and pay less to a rich player out of contempt. this will further cement SS as a newbie town. Im in SS to help the new players, not just myself. I always invite everyone on my mega scouts. Id like to stay in ss for that purpose, plus i do have characters that have below 50 in some skills and ss will be used to get them above 50. ......................... vet wv Posted Sep 3, 2008, 1:27 am Last edited Sep 3, 2008, 1:29 am by Mad Mike

Six Gun Jack Jacks Gunfighters Racer Renegade Group: Members Posts: 219 Joined: Jun 10, 2006 yeah what Doc says on the fees is what I meant. Ramps up by how much junk you are storing so that it affects only those with a ton of stuff. And I figured you were adding in more stuff Sam, so I will just wait and see, but I think you are going to get lots of opposition no matter what...LOL. Such is the life of a developer I think, but hey we still love ya !! I think just do what you think is best and put us all on ignore..hehe, just kidding. no matter what always good to see progress in the game and you are always on top of that. ......................... vet wv elmsautumn pvp1 Posted Sep 3, 2008, 1:48 am

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 There's always several conflicting things to bear in mind, most obviously: how to be fair to both vets and newbies while also being fair to both highly active and casual players. You have a point, Skyce. Garage and lockup fees have been known to be too low for a long time (over 12 months). I'm wary of making these fees exponential (or non-linear) Dr Mathias, since this is not only unrealistic but would also promote load-balancing between players (would would circumvent the prices and also mean micromanagement boredom). Use-based garage fees are good, yeah. A flat fee as we have now, plus a fee per mile travelled or combat competed in? I'm not sure about how best to do lockups. They could perhaps just be of a limited size per gang? Both of the above would also make camps more attractive to be involved in, which is one of the aims. Quote: And I figured you were adding in more stuff Sam, so I will just wait and see, but I think you are going to get lots of opposition no matter what...LOL You're right there jack. It seems there's such a variety of opinion and playing style, it's inevitable. The fact that every single poll comes out close to 50-50 is a funny side-effect. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Sep 3, 2008, 10:18 am

Alocalypse Advanced Race Labs Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: May 6, 2007 Quote: I'm not sure about how best to do lockups. They could perhaps just be of a limited size per gang? In every other MMO that does this there's inevitably going to be "bag alts" why not just save players the hassle? I also disagree with the lockup fees being too low, I've paid probably at least 2-3m in lockup fees (I couldn't find the post on when lockup/maintance was introdouced to calculate it more percisely) which is no small amount. Whatever you do it'll probably only hurt new players and the established vets with camps etc will adapt and there's not going to be any massive change in hoarding or whatever this is supposed to achieve. And when you do up the fees I'll make it a point to get my total weekly fees lower than they are currently out of spite. ......................... vet deathrce1 raceL1 race1 combat1 northernsummer gateautumn elmsautumn deathrceL1 semiprocombat wv cont Posted Sep 3, 2008, 10:46 am

Valiance The Vanguards Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,176 Joined: Jan 15, 2008 I think the problem is that these elements are brought in in isolation. As always, Doc got to the bottom of it: 1) Dexter starts renting cars out of the kindness of his heart. Prior to that, you had to own a car (and risk it) to go on a scout, and the only way to afford that was to race/deathrace/combat in the arenas (IMO, much better training than the instant gratification that is currently offered). 2) Players realised not only was scouting with Dexter's car more profitable, there was an easy exploit of leaving his rental in the wilderness and returning with 2 loot cars, which could easily net $20k in loot value. Less the $2,500 deposit, that is an almost instant, risk-free, $17,500 in profit. 3) New players stop arena events because it is vital to keep their fame below 200; everyone is much richer; prices of goods go up. 4) Everyone bitches about inflation, price of rares, etc. I strongly disagree with Skyce: Jake's recent parsimony is a slight impediment to the world that recent new players have experienced; not a fundamentally offputting new player approach. But to make it work, I do think that there are several things that must happen: 1) Watch to see if Jake's margins are so low as to be unpopular, if so, raise them a little 2) Close the Dexter's "Leave your car in the wilderness" loophole 3) I strongly support increasing lockup/garage fees exponentially. Something like first 10 cars per town garaged at $100 a week each, next 10 at $1,000 a week each, next 10 at $10,000 a week each. (Not sure about the numbers, am sure about the exponential nature). That should stop hoarding of chassis (even if Alo says he'll just move all his cars to camps, that's OK - there's only 20 camps in the game, and you should add some feature that cars not garaged in camps suffer damage over time) 4) Ditto lockups - I can sit out 300 HGATs if I wanted and there is zero incentive not to. Damage is one route (and I don't like age-related damage), but cost is much, much better IMO. I could choose to sit on them if I want, but it will cost me. I can't see how the exponential fees will hurt new players at all. In fact, you could even *reduce* the basic costs of lockups for the first 10 vehicles/basic lockup (or just the first 3 or so), so that new players get a boost at the expense of filthy rich vets. I also don't understand Alo's arguments - he's the one who's been calling for a money sink. And the gameplay arguments could simply be that a gang that big needs *better* storage, so it costs more. Not very gritty realism (Gritty realism says that the biggest gang can have the best garage, because they'll just take it.) I think that the best way to reduce hoarding without hurting newbies is to increase costs after a certain size; I struggle to see any downside to this. ......................... vet combat1 wv ped1 northernsummer Posted Sep 3, 2008, 11:09 am Last edited Sep 3, 2008, 11:09 am by Valiance

Valiance The Vanguards Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Storytellers Posts: 1,176 Joined: Jan 15, 2008 I also don't think that he is that mean. I just sold a Symphony for $13,207. 100% 2L engine, 88% chassis, Car rifle (100%) CR (85%), MG 100%, 4 reinforced tyres, 55 points of armour. That seems quite generous... ......................... vet combat1 wv ped1 northernsummer Posted Sep 3, 2008, 1:27 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 You may be right about rental-abuse being a major part of this, Valiance. One option is to add a deposit to the fee. I'm thinking $3-4k fee plus another $5k deposit. This would also allow us to reduce (or remove) the fame requirement. The idea of vouchers is also interesting... & that you'd earn these in arena combats. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Sep 3, 2008, 1:32 pm

FineRedMist The Fine Red Misters Sunday Driver Renegade Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: Aug 18, 2008 Just a few thoughts from a rank newbie: Valiance said: 1) Dexter starts renting cars out of the kindness of his heart. Prior to that, you had to own a car (and risk it) to go on a scout, and the only way to afford that was to race/deathrace/combat in the arenas (IMO, much better training than the instant gratification that is currently offered). I must admit that this aspect of the game left me feeling a little unfulfilled and less prepared.  First, rather than saying that racing, deathracing, and arena combat are better training than simply running out into scouts with veterans, I'd go farther and say that going straight into scouting is simply doing so without the benefit of training at all.  It seems to me that racing is really the best way to learn to control the cars in DW, especially for people who might not be used to any sort of physics-based car simulations (thankfully, I have a little experience, so my driving education could afford to be a little shortened, though I obviously still have much to learn).  As an aside, the races would be even better driving training if there were a few courses that more closely resembled the sand dunes of the surrounding countryside, or even races that resemble desert rallies rather than circuits.  Anyway... Races, deathraces, and arena combats with borrowed vehicles not only seem like an ideal course of study for the aspiring autodueller (best training environment, least risk), but also form a fair chunk of what I expected of DW -- fairly or not, I came to this with a fair amount of Car Wars baggage, and a certain amount of "track jock," "Friday Night Smash-em-Up," "Sunday, Sunday, SUNDAY!!" kind of feel was expected.  To me, there's a drama of seeing who's ahead in the points standings, or finding out whether "Killer" Kenny DuPree can win the King of the Hill event at the Blood Bowl for the fifth Friday night in a row.  I've been pretty surprised and a little disappointed that the in-town events are so poorly attended.  I've sort of assumed that it was because the pool of PC contestants was fairly small and spread across many time zones, but many nights see Somerset scouts with five or six players bringing cars, and that could just as easily be a titanic race/deathrace/arena combat. As for making the town events a solid way for newbies to build up their stable and bank account (and for getting others interested in competing), perhaps consider having cars as prizes instead of or in addition to cash at some events.  Jaded old-timers might make time to play a special event where a rare car, even an Alpha or Raccoon, are up for grabs.  Racing for pink slips, which seems to be an option in the player-made custom events, might also be an option to entice people to do pro events. Valiance said: 2) Players realised not only was scouting with Dexter's car more profitable, there was an easy exploit of leaving his rental in the wilderness and returning with 2 loot cars, which could easily net $20k in loot value. Less the $2,500 deposit, that is an almost instant, risk-free, $17,500 in profit. When I first was told this was possible and encouraged, I immediately wondered why Dexter keeps doing it.  It seems pretty cheesy.  Perhaps after a number of times of not returning the vehicles, you lose your rental privileges, or the rates go way up, until eventually you're basically paying the cost of a used Moose to rent it.  But if you turn them in, you stay in his good graces and can continue to rent firepower cheaply.  Maybe this could include an end to the scouting-only restriction, so people could Rent-A-Beater to help with escorting a shipment to Elms or whatever. Valiance said: 3) New players stop arena events because it is vital to keep their fame below 200; everyone is much richer; prices of goods go up. This was something I was told about within an hour of starting the game.  In fact, I was basically discouraged from playing the arena events because they would boost my fame and bring the Dexter's Free Car Giveaway gravy train to an end.  I don't find it particularly themey, and it discourages a part of the game I think would be a good addition. Valiance said: I strongly disagree with Skyce: Jake's recent parsimony is a slight impediment to the world that recent new players have experienced; not a fundamentally offputting new player approach. I don't think new players would know any better, except that they'd be hearing whatever praise or grumbling the old-timers are throwing around in the lobby. Valiance said: 3) I strongly support increasing lockup/garage fees exponentially. Something like first 10 cars per town garaged at $100 a week each, next 10 at $1,000 a week each, next 10 at $10,000 a week each. (Not sure about the numbers, am sure about the exponential nature). That should stop hoarding of chassis (even if Alo says he'll just move all his cars to camps, that's OK - there's only 20 camps in the game, and you should add some feature that cars not garaged in camps suffer damage over time) The reason storage is expensive is that it takes up limited space within the safe confines of the city/camp, and that somebody had to shell out big bucks to build the garage in the first place.  I think your exponential cost idea models the first part well enough -- you could have a literal count of the number of garage spaces in Somerset, and have the cost rise as the supply dwindles, but that hurts newbies, while having costs rise as each player's storage usage increases is close -- but what about camps?  Couldn't camps just be forced to do it more literally?  In order to garage cars at a camp, you have to build the buildings.  If you want to store cars without the garage, then there should be gradual damage to all components (fixing that damage is as good a way as any to model increased maintenance costs, and it gives mechs another job to do). Valiance said: 4) Ditto lockups - I can sit out 300 HGATs if I wanted and there is zero incentive not to. Damage is one route (and I don't like age-related damage), but cost is much, much better IMO. I could choose to sit on them if I want, but it will cost me. I'd suggest the same thing here.  Lockup space in town should theoretically be infinite, but each player's cost rises as his usage goes up.  In camps, storage sheds have to be constructed and maintained, or boxes left outside suffer damage which has to be fixed for a price.  Given that damage is so easy to fix, I like that solution better than just a random fee that goes nowhere...damage to components makes sense thematically and gives the money somewhere to go in the economy.  Heck, a camp without sufficient storage could sort of naturally start to attract mechs looking for work there, if that makes sense. Anyway, just some newb thoughts. :-) Randy... FineRedMist The Fine Red Misters ......................... vet Posted Sep 3, 2008, 7:16 pm

*sam* The Salthill Sluggerz Darkwind Guru Renegade Group: Lead Developer Posts: 16,780 Joined: Jan 19, 2006 Thanks for the comments Randy, I actually think newbie comments are very valid in this situation. You may have noticed that I have already tightened up the rentals. They now include a non-refundable fee plus a deposit. I will make the fee based on your fame, and remove the fame cap. for using rentals. ......................... marshal vet deathrce1 paintladder combat1 wv ped1 cont slay2013 Posted Sep 3, 2008, 8:22 pm

lordbam Nephilim Rising Darkwind Guru Anarchists Faction Group: Members Posts: 1,410 Joined: Dec 9, 2007 I don't really like that idea of coupling it with fame. A lot of noobs do a lot of races. if they are succesfull they are a bit (couple K) but there fame SHOOTS UP. By the time they go out on a scout the rental price is so high they might ass well by a car. A rental for me is a car a noob can use to "mess up". His first tries in the real world. I would couple rentals to the number of cars in the garage. (but off course that is me and I'm not dark-wind. the community is) ......................... vet wv zom0,3,0 Posted Sep 3, 2008, 11:25 pm

*jimmylogan* MADHAT Darkwind Guru Civs Faction Group: Marshals + Rule Council Posts: 5,587 Joined: Jun 11, 2008 I actually like it the way it is... If the intent is to prevent someone from grabbing a "cheap" rental for 2500 then leave it in the wild on purpose, then this works. With my current fame, I can now drop 9600 to rent a car, getting 5k back if I return it. I think this is VERY fair... A new player would pay, what 7k or 8k? They'd get their loot plus 5k back - I think that's more than fair. Nice one Sam. :-) JL ......................... vet marshal deathrceL1 wv community combatL1 Posted Sep 3, 2008, 11:57 pm

Pages: << prev 1, 2, 3 next >>

Powered by MercuryBoard [v1.1.4]
© 2001-2005 The Mercury Development Team

0.0955 seconds - 30 queries - 0.37 load